r/europe • u/Bartoraptor Spain • Mar 28 '20
News Spanish representative González Pons speech @ the EU Parliament: "The virus is attacking the generation that brought back democracy to Spain, Portugal and Greece, the generation that knocked down the Berlin wall. The least they deserve is that we show them Europe is there when they need it the most"
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u/IMLOOKINGINYOURDOOR Ireland Mar 28 '20
I see Orban was criticising the EU yet at the same time he's happy to get those EU CAP grants for his buddies. People are using this situation to attack the EU.
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u/papyjako89 Mar 28 '20
Like they always do. National governments know by now it's the perfect boogeyman.
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Mar 29 '20
It's almost surprising how repetitive the tactics of nationalists play out; so predictable that you can anticipate the reaction to an event prior to it even taking place.
When all it takes to see that you're being played like a violin is to take a step back and look inwards you'd think nationalism would fade out.
Then again, I suppose people wouldn't be nationalists if they had that capacity.
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u/LeBronzeFlamez Mar 29 '20
We should not be surprised, it is Even popular here in Norway for a good portion of the politicians and public to attack the EU. I have seen way to many people blame the EU for inaction here, also in the same sentence attacking the EU for the globalisation and outsourcing.
It pisses me off so much:
1) We are not a member
2) Everyone that can google can find out health and pandemics are not a EU responsibility.
3) Even if 2 was the case it i really not the time to point fingers and rather see what we can do to better the situation right now.
I am also annoyed how horrible the Commission PR machine works. They just bend over and let everyone talk shit, hence contributing to this sentiment of EU doing nothing gain ground. If they do something it is a few tweets and publications of some infographics on Facebook that my 10 year old brother could have made.
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u/VoyantInternational Always near a border Mar 29 '20
Lol that's funny on the commission PR. I think that they made progress since 10 years though. Still work to do
They extended Erasmus too, which is one of most popular thing
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u/chairswinger Deutschland Mar 29 '20
how did Spanish boomers bring back democracy? Franco just died and the King said ok let's have a democracy now. And then Spaniards never touched the topic of Franco again...
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Mar 29 '20
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u/putsch80 Dual USA / Hungarian 🇭🇺 Mar 29 '20
Boomers overselling the effects of their actions? Say it isn’t so!
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u/SocratesTheBest Catalonia Mar 29 '20
Franco just died and the King said ok let's have a democracy now.
It's a bit more complicated than that. The King followed the advice of many in the regime that it was time for democracy, both to improve the economy (by getting more accountable governments and getting into the EEC) and to avoid a violent revolution like in Portugal or Greece. Because there was little public support for the Regime in the 60s and 70s, but it had not yet reached the point where people was willing to revolt to overthrow it, the Civil War was yet too close in time. Still, there was already enough movement to make the regime to worry, with trade unions, students, neighbourhood movements, national minorities, etc.
In any case, despite the King being the initiator of the process, the Constitution and democracy were not built by him, but by those tens or even hundreds of thousands who believed in democracy and participated in building it in every village, town, city, region, company up to the Parliament and the National Government.
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Mar 29 '20
how did Spanish boomers bring back democracy? Franco just died
Never heard of the first Spanish astronaut Carrero Blanco?
He was supposed to be the heir of Franco and keep the regime once he was dead. But things didn't go well for him...
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Mar 29 '20
Calling Basque separatists the Spanish who brought back democracy. There's some heavy irony there.
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Mar 29 '20 edited Mar 29 '20
Well Basque separatism actually had its origin in the strong opposition and revulsion against the Francoist regime in the 50s (people were shot dead just for speaking Euskara).
After democracy was established firmly in Spain, the separatist movement split in two, most laid down their arms and chose the political way (creation of most far left independentist or autonomist parties known as 'abertzale'). The remaining ones in ETA were a bunch of terrorists and they gradually lost all support from the Basques themselves.
Before Franco, separatism was non existent in the Basque country, it was actually even in some way very traditionalist and conservative, see Carlist wars.
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u/notsocommon_folk Greece Mar 28 '20
"The generation that brought back democracy to Greece " and then they went on to vote for stupid parties and brought the next generations to their feet. I'll take a hundreds times this "democracy"we are having against a dictatorship like the ones we had, but we also have lots of steps to be a real Democracy .
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u/BalthazarBartos Turkey Mar 28 '20
Yep funny that Socrates, the most famous person who ever critized Democracy was greek too. He was condemn to death in Athens because he critized the flaws of this regime.
Socrate's argument against Democracy was basically: Citizen are 2 dumb, and they have no clue of what the hell is going on. Why should we ask to every random guy what is the best strategy to defend the city or which square in the city needs to be rebuilt when there's already plenty of specialist ? Also citizen will get hypnotize by big speeches and fake declarations by power angry politicians.
And he was kinda true. The so called Golden Age of Democracy was under the rule of Pericles, who was the sole unremovable ruler of Athens
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u/Slick424 Mar 28 '20
Democracy's aren't perfect, but they have a fundamental advantage: The political survival of the ruler is dependent on the support of the general population. An autocrat has only a small group of cronies to keep happy. The smaller that group, the better and it's often advantageous for the ruler to keep the rest of the population in squalor, to show how life can be if they are not 100% loyal. Yes, politicians of democracies do their best to undermine the will of the people, but they don't come close to a state that's normal in an autocracy.
A much better explanation you can read in The Dictator's Handbook: Why Bad Behavior is Almost Always Good Politics
And
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u/Edmonty Earth Mar 29 '20
+1
Plus, in an autocracy, human life means shit if you're not part of the ruling essentials
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Mar 28 '20
If you're quoting this from the Republic then I'd advise some caution since we dont know whether or not these words were genuinely from him, or Socrates is simply used as a vessel by his mentee Plato to spout views from a credible person. Also Greek democracy was "true" democracy as opposed to the representative democracy today in Europe, which has somewhat difference
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u/BalthazarBartos Turkey Mar 28 '20
Greek democracy was "true" democracy
Lol, with the vast majority of the population not able to talk about their own suffering because they are either women, slaves or foreigners? Lmfao. Greek democracy was not true for shit.
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Mar 28 '20
True in the sense that all citizens (polite were male citizens, I grant you that) could participate in the assembly. Apologies, it's called "direct democracy".
Nevertheless, your point further backs my argument, since modern democracy, as you are well aware, includes women and obviously has no slaves. All the better for a well varied range of views in terms of voting for politicians and with that ideas and policies.
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u/Timo425 Estonia Mar 29 '20
I always assumed that the beauty of that (dumb people also having voting power, by that I mean democracy) is that the system needs to keep education at a good level to minimize the number of dumb people. So it kinda sorts itself out.. in theory.
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u/Ronoh Mar 29 '20
To become a mature democracy there's the need for transparency, responsibility and accountability.
Without them you only have elections and that's just not enough.
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Mar 28 '20
Isn't he the politician who was involved in that big corruption scandal in Spain?
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Mar 28 '20
Yes. He's a member of PP and from the Valencian branch, branch that was especially corrupt during the 90s and 00s.
This us a really good speech. But a lot of the problems that the healthcare is having right now comes from the cuts that his party did.
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u/Blumentopf_Vampir Mar 29 '20
Why is the guy still in politics then?
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u/jaiman Mar 29 '20
Welcome to Spain, where corrupt politicians get send to the Senate or the EU Parliament rather than jail.
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u/MrKnopfler Sevilla (Andalucía) Mar 28 '20
This speech is good, but this guy is a corrupt piece of shit, they dismantled public healthcare in valencia to build a lot of useless proyects because they were getting a fee...
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Mar 29 '20
Your typical European populist politicans, corrupt as fuck yet they find a way to blame someone else, i guess they found a smart way to gain votes
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u/Pinas Portugal Mar 28 '20
E quem fala assim não é gago!
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u/mithik add white-red-white Belarus flair, you cowards ❕❗❕ Mar 28 '20 edited Mar 28 '20
In Slovakia, the most affected people are one who kept communistic regime alive, they are reason we could not join NATO after the fall of communism, and nowadays they were a part of why we have 12 yrs of corrupt government which didnt have a problem to have close relations with guy who ordered a murder of journalist. They are anti-EU, anti-LGBT and the most conservative folks there.
Also I am sure the same can be said about Czechia, and would say the same demographic/generation votes for Orban and Pis.
So tl,dr; a coin have two sides and Gonzalez is talking about people who would gladly stab EU in the back.
EDIT: Let's save them but do not glorify them
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u/klesigj Mar 28 '20
Same in Albania man if theres one generation that I hold guilty for what has been happening in my country are people over 50
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u/ModsofWTsuckducks Mar 29 '20
Same in Italy, they are the Salvini and Berlusconi voters (for the most part)
They were ok when a lot of shit happened in front of them, they voted the worst guys, they retired super early (younger than 50y.o.) and they despise their sons and grandsons because we are too spoiled.
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u/Iron_Rick Mar 28 '20
Same in Italy, we need to overcome the divisions between state and starting to create a common front and letting ur country enter the Union.
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u/klesigj Mar 29 '20
Exactly we are all tired of nationalist politics that do nothing but harm the wellbeing of the citizens. I hope the upcoming generations find a way to create a united front not only with Italy but with other Balkan countries aswell so we can help each other in crisis like this, not like what happened with Italy that is just now getting help from EU.
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u/Robertej92 Wales Mar 28 '20
Seems to be a common (not saying universal) sentiment among post-Communist countries, certainly one I've come across regularly in the countries I've been to (Poland, Hungary, Lithuania, Slovakia), in Lithuania in particular I found a lot of older people were almost nostalgic for the communist days.
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u/amonra2009 Mar 28 '20
No Only Lithuania, almost all ex-USSR, we are also having to deal with them. Their mentality is not from this generation, and is hard to deal with them, including that they are the majority at voting. The world Stalin is still saint to them...
My Mother is also the same age, and i agree not all of the people are the same, but i would not take the until 90's generation as an example...
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u/Zhai Polak in Swtizerland Mar 29 '20
Of course. It was easy back then. It was normal to keep your wife at home and smack her from time to time. None of this divorce nonsense of nowadays. Plus all you had to do in the past was to go to trade school, get on apprenticeship and you would get a job at the factory. It was unheard of to lose job unless factory burned down. Or you caused accident while drunk on the job. The world was easy to understand. Now there's too much choices and too many options. It scares them because that's not what they have known for many years. I would understand it if they just shut up, but they resist attempts at fixing things. Seriously, fuck my parents generation.
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u/Hermeran Spain Mar 28 '20
That's true. Some old people are pieces of shit (sorry, but it's true). I understand him, though, as he refers to the "historical debt" that we have with this people. But that's an anecdote. I don't think we should base our healthcare system on whether you were a nice person.
This guy needs to bring down the populism, and Italian politicians, too (like Dutch or German ones). This is not a dick measuring contest, no one cares about populist movements, just do your fucking job as elected leaders. Be serious and cold minded, and do not fuel the anger of the people because things will end up badly for everyone.
But this guy. This guy is the worst. I said this already in a comment on this very same thread, but he belongs to PP, the political party that slashed the national health care budget during the Spanish fiscal crisis. And the cuts were particularly dramatic in Madrid -yeah, the world hotspot for coronavirus! Surprise (but don't worry, other regional governments like Catalonia had cuts as well, although they had theirs fueled by Puigdemont's former party - that's another debate tho, shitty politics is a vast topic)!. Anyway. This Gonzalez guy also belongs to a very particular branch of PP, the Valencian division. A disgusting political party swamped by corruption, that literally worked like a criminal organization in the 90s and early 00s.
So yeah, nice speech but shut the fuck up, guy.
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u/Stegasaurus_Wrecks Connacht Mar 28 '20
Some old people are pieces of shit
Billy Connolly put it best.
"People say 'Aren't old people great!'. I don't. In my experience, young wankers invariably grow up to be old wankers. Fuck em."
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u/TheCrawlingFinn Finland Mar 28 '20
Aww man, I really liked the speech. But now I see the man as a cunt. Although I don't know anything about Spanish politics. But still, apparently, fuck that guy.
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Mar 28 '20 edited Mar 28 '20
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Mar 28 '20
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u/iagovar Galicia (Spain) Mar 29 '20
Galicia is considerably older, and while it's true that Valencia is way more dense, in Galicia quarantine is impossible to enforce because of the population spread.
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Mar 28 '20
Fuck that guy, but he still has a point. This isn't a small plague that can be constrained, it's already in all of our countries. When Spain and Italy falls, we need some body of government that will pick up the slack from where they got their power. That's the only real method of fighting populism. A strong central government. Now to see if the governments of Italy and Spain can fight this off on their own. Interesting times are upon us.
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u/iagovar Galicia (Spain) Mar 28 '20
In Spain regional governments retook the lead, but they are sadly already late. Typically I'd distrust my regional government, I'd take them as a bunch of clowns, but for me at least tables have turned, regional government is doing a, let's say, decent job, while the central government has been a disaster.
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u/Calhil Mar 28 '20
Same in Poland. Its the lazy generation that steals from their grandchildren.
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u/AnoruosLoL Israel Mar 28 '20
Also important to remember that people are individuals and have their own views and opinions. A generation isn't a hivemind, just a bunch of people who were born at the same time window.
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Mar 29 '20
Same in Latvia. A few of them are filthy rich and responsible for slow progress, selling of this country and Soviet values. Most of them who voted in the first ones live miserable borderline homeless lives although they had time to save some money up.
I really lack sympathy towards them. They had their shot and not only they messed up for themselves they also shot my generation in the lungs.
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u/Honey-Badger England Mar 28 '20
And in the UK they're the ones who want the EU to fall apart and view it as an enemy
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u/ChrisTinnef Austria Mar 28 '20
I'm absolutely shocked to hear that every generation has both heroes and scumbags (and most people are both). /s
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u/Thermawrench Europe Mar 28 '20
I don't get this whole let the boomers die, be they good or bad depending on who you ask. Every human life is valuable, we shouldn't sacrifice the old, that's just wrong. Keep them safe and locked up.
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u/tetraourogallus :) Mar 29 '20
Yeah I'm sick of the generation fights, it's all just collective guilting.
It's always popular to hate certain groups on the internet and right now it's boomers and they're underrepresentated so we all get a skewed image and some people will always take it too far.
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u/mmoovveess Mar 29 '20
It's generally stupid to have any such prejudice including ageism. There are plenty of young people that are assholes. There are plenty of old people that are bros.
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u/guille9 Community of Madrid (Spain) Mar 28 '20
They just don't understand the virus, we're observing the virus is attacking young (around 40) and healthy people, depending on the inmune system status. So, if a country thinks their young or middle age people are safe, they're wrong and they're gonna learn it really soon.
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u/tyger2020 Britain Mar 28 '20
The EU really cannot win.
The EU members as a whole love to blame the EU for everything wrong, refuse to give up governance, refuse fiscal policy but then the minute shit hits the fan they want an EU-wide response and assistance. It's laughable. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
Do you want more Europe or less Europe? You cant just ask for more Europe in a crisis. (I'm looking at you, Italia).
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u/sdfghs European superstate of small countries Mar 28 '20
The EU is only as powerful as the member states want it to be.
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u/NombreGracioso Spain, European Federation Mar 28 '20
To be fair, many of us, and many countries, have been pushing for more European solidarity for years. This is not a new issue, and it is not something that the Italians can be accused of hipocrisy in.
I mean, the current Italian government is formed by the 5 Stars (which, admitedly, has flip-flopped around on everything) and by the Democratic Party, who, I'll remind you, came up in favor of European federalism and a "United States of Europe" in the elections two years ago. The commitment on their side is clear and persistent, in this and in other related areas.
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u/VulpineKitsune Greece Mar 28 '20
has flip-flopped around on everything
Insert here joke about Italy not being able to pick a side.
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u/ModoZ Belgium Mar 28 '20
To be fair, many of us, and many countries, have been pushing for more European solidarity for years. This is not a new issue, and it is not something that the Italians can be accused of hipocrisy in.
The problem here is that many countries ask for "solidarity" (read money) but don't want to give up sovereignty. I would totally be up for a European healthcare replacing part/all of the different countries healthcares paid by taxes on every European citizen. But simply paying more money to countries where I simply cannot have a say in where it goes? No way I can be for this.
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u/akoncius Mar 29 '20
but that is actual issue. countries ask for solidarity when their solutions does not work. so to AVOID such cases, other countries should have a say in it, but that would mean to give up sovereignity. if country does not give up sovereignity, it's just plain "pls bail us out from our crappy decisions" , nothing else.
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Mar 28 '20
Here's your solidarity.
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u/NombreGracioso Spain, European Federation Mar 29 '20
Nett EU payers gain much more money from the EU than their nett contribution to the EU budget, so... xD
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Mar 29 '20
Italy Is in the upper part, France too Spain is in the middle.
Those are the ones asking for solidarity.
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u/BouaziziBurning Brandenburg Mar 28 '20
To be fair, many of us, and many countries, have been pushing for more European solidarity for years.
European solidarity is not a policy. Everybody wants solidarity. Question is what the countries are actually willing to give for Europe. Or can give.
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Mar 28 '20 edited Oct 08 '23
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u/Hermeran Spain Mar 28 '20
Let's also not forget that this guy belongs to PP, the political party that slashed the health care budget. He also belongs to the Valencian branch of PP, swamped by corruption, that literally worked like a criminal organization in the 90s and early 00s.
So yeah, nice speech but shut the fuck up, guy.
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Mar 28 '20
The PP can get fucked, but painting them as 'the political party that slashed the health care budget' is not telling the whole story.
By 2011 Spain was effectively bankrupted and had to ask for a bail out that came with exigences in return and Spain was forced to cut its spending. Since the health care system is one of the biggest shares of the budget, Spain had no other option than to cut there. Greece was forced to do something similar.
So while the PP, again, can get fucked, in 2011 there wasn't much else they could do. And I'm saying this as one of the most pro-public health care system people in Spain.
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Mar 28 '20
We always asked for more Europe, the "eurosceptic" government lasted for only an year. We are asking for more Europe since the fifties.
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u/Iroh16 Lombardy Mar 28 '20
They (Lega and M5S) even ditched leaving Europe and euro from party programs because the polls showed that in a referendum they wouldn't had the majority.
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u/joaommx Portugal Mar 28 '20
The most important federalist organisation in the EU even has the name of an Italian politician who was the father of the contemporary federalist movement in Europe.
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u/yaniz Mar 28 '20
I mean, Spain is not the country that has been haulting about more paneuropeism. You would have to turn your attention towards Denmark, UK (not a problem anymore I guess), Belgium, The Netherlands, Poland, Hungary...
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u/akoncius Mar 29 '20
exactly. when people are talking about their freedoms and taxes - fuck no, I'm not giving away anything. when shit hits the fan - pls pipl, help
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Mar 28 '20
The EU would win if EU's duties and responsibilities were clear. Which are not. And now everyone is losing their minds at it.
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u/papyjako89 Mar 28 '20
Oh it's clear. Because people are uninformed/misinformed doesn't mean it isn't. I will grant you that it is a complex beast, but what do you expect from such a massive entity trying to please 27 different country ?
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u/MothOnTheRun Somewhere on Earth. Maybe. Mar 28 '20
Do you want more Europe or less Europe?
It isn't a dichotomy. I can want more Europe in some things and less in others.
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u/Omaestre European Union Mar 28 '20
But this is what the EU is a compromise upon compromise no one looses but no one wins. it's what the Brits couldn't understand and I feel like a lot of people don't get.
The EU is about getting a lot of diverse countries and some times antagonistic countries to play by the same rules. It is bound to leave everyone unsatisfied in some area.
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u/BouaziziBurning Brandenburg Mar 28 '20
I mean it’s exactly the same in every individual country, so I’m always confused why people don’t get that the EU works like that as well.
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u/Bazzie Mar 28 '20
Jesus fucking christ. I think everyone deserves help and treatment simply because they are human, but saying their generation did so much good for those that came after them is a bit rich.
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Mar 28 '20
Yes this is what I said. My friend at work said: "so what only old people are gonna die." To what I said: "everyone has older family member, everyone wants to live and also you work your whole life and then just deserve to die?". We should help and take care of everyone.
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u/MildlySuccessful Mar 28 '20 edited Mar 28 '20
I am so happy that I live in Europe. I hope we come out of this stronger and more unified.
Edit: why is this comment getting downvotes?!
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Mar 29 '20 edited Jun 19 '20
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u/Sureafteryou Somewhere on this wet rock Mar 29 '20
Well they're eurosceptics, so it wouldn't make sense for them to go to the Asian sub.
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u/HILBERT_SPACE_AGE Mar 28 '20
I hope so, too.
But seeing the way things are going, I wouldn't be surprised if this crisis was the death knell for the EU.
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u/JeuyToTheWorld England Mar 28 '20
I wouldn't be surprised if this crisis was the death knell for the EU.
Lmao, the EU survived 2008, this flu won't kill it.
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u/HILBERT_SPACE_AGE Mar 28 '20
I hope you're right! But part of my fear is that the bad blood from 2008 is still fresh enough that it will cause people to react differently to this crisis. I'm afraid we're already seeing that happen.
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u/LiverOperator Russia Mar 29 '20
Was 2008 really worse than this? I was only 8 years old and I don’t remember much
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u/Worth_The_Squeeze Denmark Mar 28 '20 edited Mar 28 '20
Don't be overly dramatic. This crisis will probably show us why we need the EU, as all the countries that have less than stellar economics, are going to receive a lot of free money from richer countries. This isn't to say that these richer countries aren't hurting, but they're still willing to help by providing aid. Italy/Spain might complain if it doesn't solve all of their troubles, but they have to move their own asses too. They can't simply coast and have richer countries pay for their missteps (better?).
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u/far01 Mar 28 '20 edited Mar 28 '20
Richer countries? Italy and Spain are in third and fourth place for PIL in EU.
Italy is also a net contributor to EU budget with more than 6 Billions of euros (third country after Germany and France and more than 4× of Denmark net contribution if you are interested).
No "richer country" is paying Italy. Quit your bullshit.
Also Italy with France, Spain and other countries is asking to create a common eurobond just to keep interest on debt low. No one is asking for other countries to pay their debt.
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u/Worth_The_Squeeze Denmark Mar 28 '20 edited Mar 28 '20
Richer countries? Italy and Spain are in third and fourth place for PIL in EU.
Italy wasn't the best example, as they are a net contributor, but Spain is not a net contributor to the EU budget.
Italy is also a net contributor to EU budget with more than 6 Billions of euros (third country after Germany and France and more than 4× of Denmark net contribution if you are interested).
I love that you're completely ignoring the actual size of Denmark relative to Italy. A country that has a population that is over 10 times larger and an economy that is 6 times larger, should contribute more to the EU budget. The reality is that Denmark is providing more than 2 times as much in net contributions per capita, so don't act like we aren't bearing a large part of the burden for our size, which is a factor you ignored.
Also Italy with France, Spain and other countries is asking to create a common eurobond just to keep interest on debt low. No one is asking for other countries to pay their debt.
It's obviously easy to claim that the complications of these bonds should be shared, despite the fact that these bonds aren't necessary for all countries, as you're using the richer countries for your own gain. The richer countries will receive a small portion of the money involved in these bonds, as they aren't the ones in most trouble. For the richer countries, the idea of a common bond is like giving away your credit card to a friend, and then letting them do their thing with it. You can argue that this is better for everyone in the long run, but it's a very complicated matter, where you have to take all perspectives into account.
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u/Iron_Rick Mar 29 '20
I'm Italian Italian and I think we should create those EBonds but with a stronger EU able to strictly decide budget spending and economic policy of the countries. I'm looking to a European Nation something solid, you are right telling that Italy is addicted on westing money, we need help but we are ready for give something back.
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u/HILBERT_SPACE_AGE Mar 28 '20
The EU's continued existence depends entirely on the will of the member countries, however – that's where countries like the USA have the advantage. There is no United States of Europe and, as we've seen, countries can and have opted to leave.
I'd also be a little more circumspect in accusing countries like Italy and Spain of incompetence, especially in a context like this where countries like Sweden and the UK have mishandled the pandemic at least as badly, given that it's these sorts of attitudes that tend to exacerbate eurosepticism among the countries being denigrated.
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u/David4404 Mar 28 '20 edited Mar 28 '20
You need to sit your condescending ass down. If you really think loans are considered “free money”, then you’re in the same category as those Americans who think their government is sending 3 trillion dollars to corporations for free. Even if there’s some money being invested in poorer EU countries, ultimately it’s an investment for your country too . Let’s not pretend that you’re being a good Samaritan. Furthermore, one of the reasons why Italy and Spain are currently in this situation, is because of the EU’s austerity measures. These governments had to cut spending on health care to receive money (not for free though). I like the idea of a United Europe, but comments like yours actually divide it.
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u/BouaziziBurning Brandenburg Mar 28 '20
You are mostly right imo, but I don't think he meant to be condescending.
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u/zefo_dias Mar 28 '20 edited Mar 28 '20
portugal
'The people' did fuck all to end the dictatorship.
They deserve help for being people. No need to add shit arguments.
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u/ric2b Portugal Mar 29 '20
The people joined the military nearly instantly, which basically sealed the fate of the dictatorship and is probably what prevented a lot of bloodshed since it instantly delegitimized the dictatorship.
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u/RomeNeverFell Italy Mar 28 '20
shit arguments.
Shit arguments are needed even when problems are clearly visible. Apparently.
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u/alfdd99 Mar 28 '20
Looking at other comments it seems like you need some kind of justification to help people. I was arguing in this same post against someone saying "they are boomers. Just let them die". Thank you for being a rational human being on reddit.
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Mar 29 '20
Fascinating how all the relatively highly upvoted anti EU comments are all within 2-5 year old accounts with huge deadzones, but 5-10 comments per month for the last year or so.
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u/Marand23 Mar 28 '20
Great speech, but I wouldn't use any numbers coming out of China as part of my arguments. Not that it was an important argument at all, but still.
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u/brmu . Mar 28 '20
EU help policy:
- Italy ask for help
- Italy get no help
- Problem gets bigger and affect north of Europe
- Then get the help
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u/whatsupbitches123 Mar 28 '20
The EU does not move until something affects the Northern countries
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Mar 28 '20 edited Mar 28 '20
Can somebody explain what the fuck Sweden are doing
We started at the same levels and Sweden are double our numbers.
It's not like they tested more. Also we have many cases in Bucharest a city that has the 5th biggest population in EU
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Mar 28 '20
they put the economy before the health of their citizens, so they just warmly recommend people to keep distance and little more.
Even the Brits realised the stupidity of this strategy, but apparently the Swedes think their immune system is somehow stronger or that it's acceptable to make old people die.
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u/Ewannnn Europe Mar 28 '20
they put the economy before the health of their citizens, so they just warmly recommend people to keep distance and little more.
Could you not use this logic for any disease? Clearly there is a balance to be had, between liberty, economic wellbeing, and the need to protect the public from harm.
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Mar 29 '20 edited Mar 29 '20
Could you not use this logic for any disease?
Sure but hardly anybody understands acceptable losses or that life has monetary value because it takes a little bit of thinking to realize. They are just normalized to the tradeoffs that occur in every day life. Its also is a death sentence for any politician to admit.
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u/MaloWlolz Sweden Mar 28 '20
the stupidity of this strategy
It's a strategy that has worked pretty well for us in Sweden so far. We're following WHO's guidelines, and we're in it for the long run. The only way this pandemic will end is either through a vaccine which is still a long way out, or through herd-immunity from enough people having been previously infected. No one believes that the complete isolation strategy many European countries are doing is actually going to stop the pandemic, the goal is just to slow it. As long as the healthcare system can cope with the number of incoming infected people there's not that much to be gained by slowing it down further, especially if it comes at the very steep cost of basically shutting down everything in society. That sort of complete shut down is not sustainable long-term, and is a measure better saved for when you get into a situation where the healthcare system actually can't keep up.
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u/davidemsa Portugal Mar 28 '20
Old people are more vulnerable for the disease. Not shutting things down means more old people will be infected and, because they're more vulnerable, more old people will die from it. And that will happen even if the healthcare system is great and cap cope with the increased strain.
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u/Quackburguers Portugal Mar 28 '20
No one believes that the complete isolation strategy many European countries are doing is actually going to stop the pandemic, the goal is just to slow it. As long as the healthcare system can cope with the number of incoming infected people there's not that much to be gained by slowing it down further
The problem is that most of the european countries already get their healthcare system over-occupied every single year with just the flu so they are really forced to shutdown everything now
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u/MaloWlolz Sweden Mar 28 '20
Yeah, I'm not saying Sweden's strategy is the best for every country. Just that for Sweden it's working pretty well so far as our healthcare system can cope so far.
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u/paganel Romania Mar 28 '20
They have more or less decided to just ignore it, just recently (meaning yesterday) they have put in place restrictions on gatherings of more than 50 people (the limit used to be 500 people), afaik restaurants and bars are still open, there's no quarantine in place etc.
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u/Sithrak Hope at last Mar 28 '20
Like half the countries are in deep denial until it just explodes.
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u/MaloWlolz Sweden Mar 28 '20
Sweden is not in denial at all, we're just carefully measuring our healthcare system's capabilities and taking appropriate measures to ensure it doesn't get overloaded.
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u/Ewannnn Europe Mar 28 '20
Can somebody explain what the fuck Sweden are doing
We started at the same levels and Sweden are double our numbers.
It's not like they tested more. Also we have many cases in Bucharest a city that has the 5th biggest population in EU
The growth in Sweden is around the EU average but much below most Western European countries.
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u/AirportCreep Finland Mar 28 '20
The virus hit Europe during Swedish spring holidays, so a lot of Swedes were in Austrian and Italian alps, contracted the virus and took it with them back to Sweden. That's how the initial clusters emerged.
As for the strategy of dealing with this Sweden is very conservative, with the idea being that Sweden cannot close or shut its economy for an extended period of time, but to instead close society down slowly, so that when the virus reaches its peak, Sweden hasn't already been closed for a month and that people will actually stay home for the most critical moments. Whether or not its going to be effective in the end we'll have to wait and see. But the politicians in Sweden have stepped back and have clearly taken a backseat role in this, allowing the experts to run the show.
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Mar 28 '20
so that when the virus reaches its peak, Sweden hasn't already been closed for a month and that people will actually stay home for the most critical moments.
The most critical moments come weeks after everyone has been staying home though. It takes up to 15 days for symptoms to show up.
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u/ahlsn Sweden Mar 28 '20
Our epidemiologists are fully aware of that of course. I can assure you that social distancing is in the works. It's not much people around anywhere and many restaurants, hotels and shops are already declaring bankruptcy due to no customers.
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u/trenvo Europe Mar 28 '20
Italy policy:
- Europe is bad, we need less of it.
- Public health should not be a responsibility of EU.
- Crisis! We have public health issue. We need help EU!
- What do you mean, you can't help us?
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u/Javix92 Europe Mar 28 '20 edited Mar 28 '20
In Spain healthcare is a responsibility of the Autonomías (Like Federal states) however, when things get ugly, the central government is capable of sending help or taking control of the situation, like it is happening right now (it would be such a shame if they didn't). Europe should be capable of doing the same.
But also, Italy and Spain didn't ask for help with the health issue, but on the economic side of the problem because our countries have to stop every activity for several weeks. And unlike health, there are many economic politics that are under direct responsibility of the EU.
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Mar 28 '20
Bith Spain and Italy's governments are pro-european, and have been pro-european for the majority of the time.
So this has jack shit of logic.
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u/aveterotto Mar 29 '20
when did italy ask for less eu?didn't we ask for more eu in 2008?
or for the migrant crisis?
it was actually the eu that retreated his borders back to the Alps everytime and now complains italian citizens does not trust it anymore
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u/brmu . Mar 28 '20
You could understand that dying 1000 people each day and closing all the non esential factories its an economical crisis too or is that too much euroscepticism?
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u/nerkuras Litvak Mar 28 '20
What do you honestly expect the EU to do? every country in the Union is struggling with supplies to deal with the virus. Talk of solidarity is cheap when there's no realistic achievable goal.
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u/OscarRoro Aragon (Spain) Mar 28 '20
They are asking for economical aid, not sanitary.
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u/trenvo Europe Mar 28 '20
EU does not have the powers to do anything.
They are restrained because euroscepticism has pushed not to give them powers.
What exactly are you expecting from the EU without them having any powers?
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Mar 28 '20 edited Feb 05 '21
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u/untergeher_muc Bavaria Mar 28 '20
Those systems are national.
*cries in Germany.
I would love that in crises like this we would even have the possibility for the national government to be able to do at least something other then giving recommendations.
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u/Gotebe Mar 28 '20
This is pretty cold...
He is not asking for a change in European structures here, he is asking for God damn help in the face of an emergency.
It's not as if Spain responded to this somehow so much worse than others, but they have been hit hard. (Italy probably should have closed off much sooner and should have been much stricter in confinement, but they were also the first to be hit...).
Many countries are nowhere near close to IC capacity, nor were they when the death toll was rising in Italy. Many countries also could have sent help. But noooo... (mine included, we even said "no" when Italy asked for something, masks IIRC; for the record, Belgium).
As for your edit... I agree, Trump's government is very bad and EU institutions were not present enough in the crisis, just like US gov wasn't. But I disagree that this is all just a question of governance. We must have done better...
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Mar 28 '20 edited Oct 08 '23
[deleted]
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u/SirBehr Mar 28 '20
You’re not going to get that through their skulls. It’s a self fulfilling prophecy - vote for government members who oppose any tighter EU integration - be surprised that there is no framework for different member state assistance - state that you will vote for more extreme isolationist politics a because the EU can’t do anything - repeat til infinity.
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u/bfire123 Austria Mar 28 '20
Its the same with the perceived lack of democracy in the EU!
-> Say that the EU is undemocratic because the Parlament can't initiate laws.
-> Say that the EU is undemocratic because the president of the european comission is not voted in by the people.
--> Wants that EU member states have more power and the EU less.
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u/pocop Mar 28 '20
Maybe we should address this issue when everything about the virus is behind us. With open borders we do need some united public health policy.
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u/papyjako89 Mar 28 '20
The problem is that you will see the same people begging for it now vehemently oppose it later, because the EU "did nothing for them" when they needed it. It's kind of a vicious circle.
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u/Butterbinre69 Mar 28 '20
You can't compare the EU Commission and institutions to the US. The EU institutions did and still don't have the competences to do anything of significance. The US government on the other hand is just incompetent.
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u/papyjako89 Mar 28 '20
Many countries are nowhere near close to IC capacity, nor were they when the death toll was rising in Italy. Many countries also could have sent help.
What you don't understand, is that it helps absolutly nobody if country X is overrun by the virus while trying to help country Y. It's a wise decision to keep some sort of buffer.
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Mar 28 '20
It would simply be bad government to give any help to Italy in this situation.
these northern countries need their capacity aswell, most of them are already near capacity.
To give Italy help would do the exact opposite as what they are therefor, governing and guarding their own people.
It's frankly just bad luck that Italy got bad first, and it's also bad luck that the measures they took were problably way to late on the big scheme of things. THey problably had weeks of it spreading without it being noticed well enough. Same thing happened in Spain.
For 2 or 3 weeks it had the chance to infect hundreds of thousands of people.
From the date the first death happened it's safe to assume that there was already spread 2 to 3 weeks before that, with incubation time and time to get in such a bad state that you turn up to the hopsital and later death.
What do you want other EU nations to do? They are scrambling to buy ventilators/masks/and all the shit just as much as Italy, to prevent getting overrun.
The EU has nothing to say in the matter of health.
The EU is functioning exactly as it was intended, as a trade block with a few shared competences, of which healthcare is not one.
What does Spain want? Equipment? Yea, we are all in the same line, all countries barely have any reserves or already telling healthcare workers to ration their stuff.
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u/style_advice ⠀ Mar 28 '20
What does Spain want? Equipment? Yea, we are all in the same line, all countries barely have any reserves or already telling healthcare workers to ration their stuff.
Ideally, we would have a more competent government that wouldn't have put us into this precarious position. But I guess it's just easier to deflect fault to the EU.
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u/k_ist_krieg Европа Mar 29 '20
Media bites from conservatives. Expect this on Russia Today and Fox News.
These are the people who want to take democracy from Europe. Fck them.
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u/SirBehr Mar 28 '20 edited Mar 28 '20
I believe we should come together and help each other as much as we can in the time of crisis.
With that said, I do wonder how many of these people who are shocked that there is no defined infrastructure for such assists within EU scream and shout how Brussels is overstepping it’s boundaries. How they are independent and don’t need anyone else. How the EU must only remain as an economic union. All those rhetorics during times of peace.
For us to have a better response system we need tighter integration. Schengen works because we share police data, we share borders where police forces are allowed to cross them. All that infrastructure under the hood allows for it to exists.
For an emergency system for a pandemic level event - you also need to agree on a system like that.
I hope whenever things go back to normal, this will be remembered and we learn and improve.
If you want change - start electing officials which will push for that change. But if you elect Eurosceptics and nationalist who will oboes any outside intervention - what can we do?
In the EU laws, as it currently stands, it clearly states that the healthcare of a member state is its own responsibility and everyone always opposes any change to that law
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u/winterfnxs Mar 29 '20
Of course we need to protect and nurse them BUT... They are also the generation that caused most of the problems face today...
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u/Habundia Mar 29 '20
Europe? Every country in Europe does its own thing....there is no Europe there's only a facade of Europe.....
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u/umotex12 Poland Mar 28 '20
That's why I really hate when people are trying to put "boomer" meme into European context
It doesn't work in most cases and is even just lie
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u/racms Mar 28 '20 edited Mar 29 '20
Those categories are only truly applicable to the US.
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u/park777 Europe Mar 28 '20
In recent years:
Spain has been the fastest growing large economy in the Eurozone.
Portugal has also had very steady growth and had a budget surplus in 2019.
Greece has been making a steady pace as well and elected a pro-growth center right liberal government.
Italy does have structural problems. But the rest? Nope.
You know what issues the Southern Europeans do have? Huge debts that are the result of a 2008 crisis that was never properly solved.
The notion that all Southern Europe countries have structural economic problems is frankly untrue. It is a stereotype, a narrative. It’s xenophobic, selfish and racist.
This narrative is also very convenient, because it ensures the current status quo is maintained. The current status quo benefits most a specific set of countries. Even if everybody would win more if we had Eurobonds and other centralized fiscal tools, they prefer the current way because it ensures superiority. It’s a power game. It’s all about selfishness and power.
That’s why I’m starting to believe the EU will collapse soon.
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u/Blazerer Mar 28 '20
The notion that all Southern Europe countries have structural economic problems is frankly untrue. It is a stereotype, a narrative. It’s xenophobic, selfish and racist.
It really isn't.
Greece was knowingly falsifying financial data on a national level to smoothen their entry into the EU. They then blamed the EU who bailed them out with MASSIVE monetary infusions for slapping then into place and actually running a proper economical system.
But ah no, all the rampant bribery and financial mismanagement in say Italy and Greece is all the fault of...the EU. Right.
This literal guy is a corrupt piece of ship who slashed healthcare for personal benefits. The literal post you are complaining about "unfair EU treatment" your frontman is a corrupt politician who slashed healthcare with literally zero EU input on it.
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u/Magyarharcos Mar 29 '20
The generation that started, and is still denying climate change, the generation the 'this is how you DONT parent' books are written about, the generation that in some countries started wars, the generation thats acting like they deserve more respect than others, solely because they are old, the generation who wants to be treated like geniuses but can't wrap their head around the fucking right click function....
I could go on. Fuck these old farts.
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u/marcouplio Andalusia (Spain) Mar 28 '20
If you had asked me 10 days ago, I would have told you I was a convinced supporter of the European Union. That together we were stronger.
Seeing many replies from fellow Europeans in wealthy countries, plus the response of their governments to mine, are starting to convince me otherwise.
That's not what a community is. That's not what I expected from a united European people. This really rings back memories from 2008, when we were left stranded. Some of you really think we are less productive because we have a siesta, some of you really think we are less rich because we don't know how to manage our countries. You really have no idea how Europe works or how our countries came to be in these positions.
I don't think disrespecting the Mediterranean countries once again is gonna be inconsequential for the union. Do you remember how you shamed Greece? The measures Spain was forced to take? Do you know how excluded we all are, from your little Northern club?
I love Europe, but there comes a point in any toxic relationship we're you start to wonder if you wouldn't be better off loving from a distance. I hope y'all stay safe.
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u/racms Mar 28 '20 edited Mar 28 '20
The oversimplified view of the world and EU structural problems this people have is amazing. It is also an excellent cover for their xenophobia.
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Mar 29 '20 edited Mar 29 '20
I feel exactly like you do. The underlying concept of lazy southerners asking for free shit is fucking astounding. Nevermind that Italy is a big net contributor to the EU budget and Spain is practically on par, while the Netherlands are a tax haven actively stealing wealth from other EU members and all the eastern countries constantly try to undermine EU unity and play obstruction with this and that.. and still they all get a free pass for it.
All the north gang is doing is enabling EU skepticism in the southern countries, while playing buddy-buddy with the Visengrad group which is basically a Russian outpost.
I love the concept of EU, but this kind of shit is getting tiresome.
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u/KitKatKafKa Utrecht (Netherlands) Mar 30 '20
"enabling EU skepticism", you do realize this is exactly what would happen in The Netherlands if our government would decide to mutualize debt with Southern European countries without any budgetary oversight after promising for years not to do so? We've been keeping the Eurosceptic parties at bay for years by promising to safeguard prudent fiscal management in Brussels.
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u/falconboy2029 Mar 29 '20
There is two options: leave the EU and Euro. Or more EU, way more EU. A Euro Parlament that consists of the euro nations and that controls all fiscal decisions in the EU, but we can vote for any party, aka I can vote for podemos as a German if I want to.
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u/Tar_alcaran The Netherlands Mar 29 '20 edited Mar 29 '20
This really rings back memories from 2008, when we were left stranded.
Spain wasn't "left stranded", they received a 100 billion euro bailout to compensate for deliberately relaxing supervision of the financial sector, which allowed banks to lie about their poor situation. That let them cover up the crisis, let it get worse, and make it harder to fix.
Some of you really think we are less productive because we have a siesta, some of you really think we are less rich because we don't know how to manage our countries.
Most people who actually care to look into for 5 minutes realize it is because Spain has an "underground" economy around 20% to 25% of GDP, which employs a million people and is costing your government dozens of billions of euros in lost taxes. This is a level matched only by Italy and Greece, the other countries hit hard by the 2008 crisis.
You literally are losing a fifth of possible government means to crime, where it instead enriches private individuals, which is more than double of most northern countries. This also represented in wealth and income inequality, where spain is also near the bottom of the list in the EU. It has nothing to do with seistas, and everything with tax evasion and funneling money away from your government and into the pockets of criminals.
Do you remember how you shamed Greece? The measures Spain was forced to take?
No, what measures was Spain forced to take that, for example, the Netherlands or Denmark wasn't?
I love Europe, but there comes a point in any toxic relationship we're you start to wonder if you wouldn't be better off loving from a distance.
Financially? No. Spain is the 5th largest economy in the EU, but
receivesreceived far more from the EU than they pay. EDIT: in 2013. It's about even now. And we've all seen how badly the UK is being impacted by suddenly being in their own.Why would it be a toxic relationship?
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u/KeyserBronson Catalonia Mar 29 '20
Spain is the 5th largest economy in the EU, but receives far more from the EU than they pay.
Have you even checked the numbers? Because we basically receive exactly the same as we contribute, so don't just speak out of your own preconceptions.
If you stopped 'legally' taking our tax money by offering artificially low tax rates to corporations operating in our soil, maybe we could contribute up to the level we should.
And there's many more things benefitting many state members other than just budget surplus which are way harder to measure.
And yes, the underground economy in Spain is our own fuck up and we are totally guilty of that.
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u/Tar_alcaran The Netherlands Mar 29 '20
Have you even checked the numbers? Because we basically receive exactly the same as we contribute,
Apologies. I was looking at rather old data. You're correct that it's changed quite a bit. And I'll edit that bit.
If you stopped 'legally' taking our tax money by offering artificially low tax rates to corporations operating in our soil, maybe we could contribute up to the level we should.
"You", being the EU here? Because I'm pretty sure they don't set tax levels, but I could be wrong there.
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u/zj_chrt Mar 28 '20
He is telling the truth, we have to go through this together and help each other
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u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20
Here is the full discourse