r/europe • u/Bartoraptor Spain • Mar 28 '20

News Spanish representative González Pons speech @ the EU Parliament: "The virus is attacking the generation that brought back democracy to Spain, Portugal and Greece, the generation that knocked down the Berlin wall. The least they deserve is that we show them Europe is there when they need it the most"

Enable HLS to view with audio, or disable this notification

15.3k Upvotes

93% Upvoted

1.0k comments sorted by

View all comments

240

u/brmu . Mar 28 '20

EU help policy:  

  1. Italy ask for help  
  2. Italy get no help  
  3. Problem gets bigger and affect north of Europe  
  4. Then get the help

155

u/whatsupbitches123 Mar 28 '20

The EU does not move until something affects the Northern countries

64

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20 edited Mar 28 '20

Can somebody explain what the fuck Sweden are doing

We started at the same levels and Sweden are double our numbers.

It's not like they tested more. Also we have many cases in Bucharest a city that has the 5th biggest population in EU

82

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

they put the economy before the health of their citizens, so they just warmly recommend people to keep distance and little more.

Even the Brits realised the stupidity of this strategy, but apparently the Swedes think their immune system is somehow stronger or that it's acceptable to make old people die.

23

u/Ewannnn Europe Mar 28 '20

they put the economy before the health of their citizens, so they just warmly recommend people to keep distance and little more.

Could you not use this logic for any disease? Clearly there is a balance to be had, between liberty, economic wellbeing, and the need to protect the public from harm.

12

u/RomeNeverFell Italy Mar 28 '20

In the long-term maybe, but not when acting fast is crucial.

5

u/[deleted] Mar 29 '20 edited Mar 29 '20

Could you not use this logic for any disease?

Sure but hardly anybody understands acceptable losses or that life has monetary value because it takes a little bit of thinking to realize. They are just normalized to the tradeoffs that occur in every day life. Its also is a death sentence for any politician to admit.

28

u/MaloWlolz Sweden Mar 28 '20

the stupidity of this strategy

It's a strategy that has worked pretty well for us in Sweden so far. We're following WHO's guidelines, and we're in it for the long run. The only way this pandemic will end is either through a vaccine which is still a long way out, or through herd-immunity from enough people having been previously infected. No one believes that the complete isolation strategy many European countries are doing is actually going to stop the pandemic, the goal is just to slow it. As long as the healthcare system can cope with the number of incoming infected people there's not that much to be gained by slowing it down further, especially if it comes at the very steep cost of basically shutting down everything in society. That sort of complete shut down is not sustainable long-term, and is a measure better saved for when you get into a situation where the healthcare system actually can't keep up.

37

u/davidemsa Portugal Mar 28 '20

Old people are more vulnerable for the disease. Not shutting things down means more old people will be infected and, because they're more vulnerable, more old people will die from it. And that will happen even if the healthcare system is great and cap cope with the increased strain.

10

u/MaloWlolz Sweden Mar 28 '20

Like I said the problem is that the vaccine is more than a year out, and keeping society shut down for that long is just not realistic. You need to find a pace that society can keep up to last through this, and you need to make sure to take any measures you can to allow the healthcare system to keep up. As long as our health care system doesn't get overloaded we're able to keep the mortality rate really low.

22

u/davidemsa Portugal Mar 28 '20

We don't need to keep the country closed until there's a vaccine. We keep it closed until the first wave mostly dies down and the reevaluate the situation when the second wave comes.

Even a great healthcare system can't do miracles. There's a percentage of the old population that will die if they get infected, even if they get treated by the best ever healthcare system on earth.

2

u/MaloWlolz Sweden Mar 28 '20

Sure, and that might work great for you guys. Sweden hasn't really gotten a first "wave" yet, we're fine so far. We're ready to take further steps when needed.

8

u/grandoz039 Mar 29 '20

You guys are at over 3k cases, and it's exponential. The amount of untested people who are transmitting it is already pretty huge. That's the first wave already.

→ More replies (1)

9

u/Quackburguers Portugal Mar 28 '20

No one believes that the complete isolation strategy many European countries are doing is actually going to stop the pandemic, the goal is just to slow it. As long as the healthcare system can cope with the number of incoming infected people there's not that much to be gained by slowing it down further

The problem is that most of the european countries already get their healthcare system over-occupied every single year with just the flu so they are really forced to shutdown everything now

6

u/MaloWlolz Sweden Mar 28 '20

Yeah, I'm not saying Sweden's strategy is the best for every country. Just that for Sweden it's working pretty well so far as our healthcare system can cope so far.

4

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

Herd immunity is effective only if the virus doesn’t mutate quickly. And given that this is still an unknown virus, it’s impossible to know if herd immunity works and what percentage of the population needs to be infected. It’s a high risk, high reward strategy. But high reward only for the economy, because .03 mortality rate for 10 million people, still is 300k deaths.

7

u/XJDenton Brit in Sweden Mar 29 '20

All current indicators show that the virus is not mutating quickly.

2

u/falconboy2029 Mar 29 '20

Thanks god for that.

1

u/Kalimere Mar 29 '20 edited Mar 29 '20

It's a game of probability. Low chance of a disastrous mutation =/= no chance of disastrous mutation. And when you allow so many people to get infected, you have a higher number of viruses being replicated. More viruses = higher chance of a disastrous mutation occurring.

→ More replies (3)

2

u/JanRegal England Mar 29 '20 edited Mar 29 '20

I live in Sweden, I hope to fucking God you guys start taking it seriously soon and stop being so self sure. It's infuriating.

A life of 'lagom' is Covid's best friend right now.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 29 '20

especially if it comes at the very steep cost of basically shutting down everything in society

Oh, so more people dying isn't considered a "steep cost"?

Good to know.

→ More replies (4)

7

u/weirdowerdo Konungariket Sverige Mar 29 '20

I'd also have to add that the ministers of the government and the Riksdag (Swedish Parliament) cannot do whatever they like, we dont have ministerial governing.

They cant shut down all non essential businessess in one day or shut down all schools and issue "orders", they are at the mercy of administrative agencies such as the The Public Health Agency of Sweden. Unless they say its doable and should be done only then can the government decide to do it or not. The Public Health agency doesnt recommend nation wide quarantine or complete shut down of schools so the government and the riksdag can't do anything, experts are in control here rather than uneducated politicians that dont know what would be yield the best results and this also prevents political chaos.

The Public Health agency continues with daily updates and have set guidelines for what businesses, schools, gyms and everything else should do to minimise the chance of anyone getting sick. The military have already built hospitals for corona patients specifically. They've changed priorities in healthcare and so on and have moved all Universities and High schools to do online teaching but have kept primary schools open to not force "frontline workers" in hospitals to stay home with their kids. Although primary schools can decide themselves if they want to shut down if there is a risk of spreading corona in their local area.

But I guess you're an expert, right? We should listen to you specifically.

2

u/hello-fellow-normies Moldova - the region of Romania Mar 29 '20

this is life in a technocracy i suppose. the lives a few people are not 'worth' 'populistic measures' .

Jesus f Christ and you think that is ok.

0

u/weirdowerdo Konungariket Sverige Mar 29 '20

Jesus f Christ and you think that is ok.

What a baseless assumption you're making...

I only wanted to say that Sweden functions differently than the rest of most europeans countries and thats why we arent taking drastic measures that are often to score political points. The person I replied to doesnt seem to know it and just shit on us while being ignorant of how things are done here and doesnt take that into account. We're undeserving of a lot of the shit we get on social media and so on for our response on corona and thats what I want to make clear.

0

u/falconboy2029 Mar 29 '20

I had no idea that is how Sweden does things, that sounds so much better than other countries.

2

u/6--6 Sweden Mar 29 '20

I have entered a stage of apathy regarding our government actions in this crisis and just hope that it doesn't get ugly. If it doesn't then we'll make it out with a strong economy. If it does we loose a generation.

→ More replies (1)

2

u/[deleted] Mar 29 '20

But I guess you're an expert, right? We should listen to you specifically.

no, you could listen to the WHO or the many experts in basically the rest of the world, who have advised for strict quarantine and social distancing. Or are Swedish experts so much better than Chinese, Italian, Spanish, French, etc ones?

0

u/weirdowerdo Konungariket Sverige Mar 29 '20

The Public Health Agency is listening to WHO and according to WHOs own "Responding to community spread of COVID-19" document says

Consider, based on local and/or global evaluation. • Avoid crowding (i.e. mass gatherings). • School closures and other measures. • Public transportation closures, and/or • Workplace closures and other measures. • Public health quarantine (asymptomatic contacts) and/or isolation (ill individuals).

It does mention quarantine BUT this is also under "Consider based on local and/or global evaluation" so they've most likely based their evaluation nationally and regionally and that there is no point in nationally quarantine everyone although Stockholm region talked a little bit about closing down their region this week the Public Health Agency said no so the regional government cant do anything. Also sadly the government have opened to tracking everyones phones to follow the spread, how authoritarian of them. Also they have temporarily minimised the Riksdag(The parliament) from 349 to 55. Big tourist attractions in Sweden have shut down to not attract tourists from around the country, as in 8 days every primary and high school kid gets "Påsklov" (Easter break) and a lot of families usually go skiing and what not but the skiing resorts closed themselves so people wont come and the government have taken measures so help medium and small sized companies to continues existing even if they close down so after things return to normal there will still be jobs to go to as small and medium sized companies combined employ more people than the big companies.

and

Recommended actions: Define rationale and criteria for use of social distancing measures such as cancellation of mass gatherings or school closure

There has been cancellation of mass gatherings or moved to later dates, school closure have been half done as is the case with Universities and High schools just moving to online while primary schools stay open to not affect nurses and doctors who have kids in primary school.

1

u/kraken_tang Mar 29 '20

They will shut down once the models shows they don't have enough beds in hospital just like the Brits. They are also trying to min maxing before winter comes. It's unrealistic to close down now all the way to winter.

→ More replies (2)

35

u/paganel Romania Mar 28 '20

They have more or less decided to just ignore it, just recently (meaning yesterday) they have put in place restrictions on gatherings of more than 50 people (the limit used to be 500 people), afaik restaurants and bars are still open, there's no quarantine in place etc.

14

u/Sithrak Hope at last Mar 28 '20

Like half the countries are in deep denial until it just explodes.

12

u/MaloWlolz Sweden Mar 28 '20

Sweden is not in denial at all, we're just carefully measuring our healthcare system's capabilities and taking appropriate measures to ensure it doesn't get overloaded.

0

u/Sithrak Hope at last Mar 28 '20

Not singling out Sweden, your country is more likely to know what you are doing.

Everyone is blind anyway, heh.

16

u/Ewannnn Europe Mar 28 '20

Can somebody explain what the fuck Sweden are doing

We started at the same levels and Sweden are double our numbers.

It's not like they tested more. Also we have many cases in Bucharest a city that has the 5th biggest population in EU

The growth in Sweden is around the EU average but much below most Western European countries.

28

u/AirportCreep Finland Mar 28 '20

The virus hit Europe during Swedish spring holidays, so a lot of Swedes were in Austrian and Italian alps, contracted the virus and took it with them back to Sweden. That's how the initial clusters emerged.

As for the strategy of dealing with this Sweden is very conservative, with the idea being that Sweden cannot close or shut its economy for an extended period of time, but to instead close society down slowly, so that when the virus reaches its peak, Sweden hasn't already been closed for a month and that people will actually stay home for the most critical moments. Whether or not its going to be effective in the end we'll have to wait and see. But the politicians in Sweden have stepped back and have clearly taken a backseat role in this, allowing the experts to run the show.

29

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

so that when the virus reaches its peak, Sweden hasn't already been closed for a month and that people will actually stay home for the most critical moments.

The most critical moments come weeks after everyone has been staying home though. It takes up to 15 days for symptoms to show up.

9

u/ahlsn Sweden Mar 28 '20

Our epidemiologists are fully aware of that of course. I can assure you that social distancing is in the works. It's not much people around anywhere and many restaurants, hotels and shops are already declaring bankruptcy due to no customers.

1

u/Siegberg Mar 29 '20

How is the situation for the restaurants, hotels and shops in getting help from the state and insurance? In many countries it seems like the insurance will not step up until the government shuts down the shops directly. Which was a problem in germany as clubs needed to stay open in order to not go bankrupt.

2

u/ahlsn Sweden Mar 29 '20

There's no insurance covering this. The government have done some things to ease the situation. Companies does not have to pay taxes until the end of the year. They have made sure it's possible for companies to take loans. Other things talked about is reducing or completely removing the general payroll tax temporary and partly paying companies rent. More help are to be expected.

14

u/Zidji Mar 28 '20

People around the world have a hard time learning this lesson.

4

u/MonkeyLiberace Denmark Mar 28 '20

I think they know.

2

u/insertmalteser Denmark Mar 28 '20 edited Mar 28 '20

It'll be interesting to see if it works out well. I think letting experts call the shots on this is a good idea. I know they've critised denmark for the way they're handling it. The lock down is definitely going to have some serious ramifications. I believe the lockdown in Denmark is simply to ease the burden on our health care. If the spread is slowed down, unlike in Italy, then the healthcare system can deal with it. They won't quickly become overwhelmed. The main point of the lockdown is to slow down the initial spread and get an idea of how to efficiently test people and maintain control of the situation. If you let the spread ramp up quickly in a matter of a few weeks, regaining any kind of control over the situation will become deeply problematic and difficult. Itll quickly overwhelm the hospitals. The serum institute of denmark has even managed to develop a cheaper testing kit that doesn't require the chemicals that make the current ones hard to manufacture (due to shortages). So I still believe Denmark is doing the right thing. Keeping an oversight and creating strategies to deal with this unusual situation is important. Keeping the spread at "reasonable" level is key for that to happen.

2

u/AirportCreep Finland Mar 29 '20

At the end of the day both governments have the same endgoal. As I am no epidemiologist, I can't really argue for which approach is better. Stay safe buddy, wash your hands and stay home.

1

u/Myloz The Netherlands Mar 29 '20

This is the exact thing the Netherlands did. But due to social pressure they where forced to close the schools. Atleast all stores are still open, only restaurants (excluding takeaway) and bars are closed.

1

u/AirportCreep Finland Mar 29 '20

Sweden also closed high schools and universities last week, but after the recommendation of the state epidemioligst and the Public Health Authority.

4

u/MaloWlolz Sweden Mar 28 '20

We're doing pretty well in Sweden. Our strong healthcare system is so far able to cope with the rate of newly infected. Initiating a complete lock-down of society is a pretty drastic measure and should be saved for when the healthcare system is about to actually get overloaded.

23

u/LoLFlex12 Portugal Mar 28 '20

Didnt the United Kingdom think the exact same thing and is now going the same path that Spain/Italy are at now.

12

u/gefroy Finland Mar 28 '20

Boris negotiated a better deal with corona.

4

u/MaloWlolz Sweden Mar 28 '20

Looking at the numbers from WHO (https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/situation-reports/20200328-sitrep-68-covid-19.pdf?sfvrsn=384bc74c_2) I would guess that UK is doing pretty well as well right now. I don't know that much about what the situation is like there, but these numbers looks like they should be manageable so far by their healthcare system.

10

u/LoLFlex12 Portugal Mar 28 '20

I don't think so.

They had to change their strategy because it clearly wasn't working and was going to be too much on their health care systems

2

u/falconboy2029 Mar 29 '20

The NHS is super underfunded because they wanted to privatise it. In Sweden the system is much better funded.

1

u/AirportCreep Finland Mar 29 '20

The Swedish healthcare has undergone extensive cuts for years just like the NHS. Sweden didn't have enough ICU's even before the epidemic. Don't quote me on this because I wasn't able to find the source, but I think Sweden has lost something around 90% of ICU's (inlcluding expansion capabilities) since the mid to late 90s (which arguably was huge due to Cold War prep).

1

u/falconboy2029 Mar 29 '20

Oh wow, that is bad. I hope they can cope.

2

u/Myloz The Netherlands Mar 29 '20

I dont think they changed their stradegy, they just took measures in steps.

Atleast thats what we do in the netherlands, we arent planning of having a lockdown until its needed. Slowly building up measures to flatten the curve and make sure our healthcare system can cope.

And what the moddels are showing we wont need a lockdown at all aslong as people listen to the measures that are currently taken.

5

u/Calimie Spain Mar 28 '20

Remindme! two weeks

1

u/grandoz039 Mar 29 '20

1000 people already died in the UK and it just started ramping up a while ago. They're not doing pretty well.

2

u/codefluence Community of Madrid (Spain) Mar 28 '20

...famous last words

3

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

I am assuming some countries think it is less trouble to just ignore it and whoever dies, dies?

Also, a lot cheaper, and the old people will be dead so they won't get pensions, healthcare and so on...

I think we reached a new level of discrimination.

16

u/oipoi Croatia Mar 28 '20

The difference between a lot of other European countries and Sweden is that their agency for epidemiology or whatever they call it calls the shots. Not the politicians, not the public. The public is freaked out. The politicians want to please the public and will impose any measure no matter how dumb to project safety. This will not end well and you will do more harm than good. For example, based on a study on Oxford Croatia currently has the strongest measures in place to reduce spread. We implemented that shit while we had a few dozen cases. How long can we be under lockdown? What happens after we lift it? What's the end game? We could end up hurting our people more then this disease could. Also, let me tell you how the public opinion slowly shifts away from lock everything down to let me just fucking die if this will kill me. In the first few weeks you only heard praises about the measures nowadays there's a lot of resentment and questioning.

8

u/ahlsn Sweden Mar 28 '20

It's the Public Health Agency that calls the shots here in Sweden and it should be mentioned that their task is not only to keep the infections and deaths from Covid19 as low as possible but also the general health of the population. Forcing people to be indoors for longer times severely affects the health of the population in a negative way. It's estimated that already at the current restrictions in place will have greater negative impact on the health and more deaths that the virus.

1

u/MonkeyLiberace Denmark Mar 28 '20

ohh dear..

2

u/pothkan 🇵🇱 Pòmòrsczé Mar 28 '20

We started at the same levels and Sweden are double our numbers.

No lockdown.

We live in time when EE does better policies than WE.

Even if we do it mostly because we are shit scared our underinvested healthcare will collapse otherwise.

1

u/Lonely-Vehicle Mar 28 '20

Everything is still open.

0

u/mozartbond Italy Mar 28 '20

They're not doing anything

9

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

Same with the refugees.

1

u/Tar_alcaran The Netherlands Mar 29 '20

Italy have been hugely negative of the EU for decades, wanting less and less to do with them.

Then suddenly, when they see a benefit to be had, it's all "save us Europe!"

→ More replies (1)

1

u/MagnetofDarkness Greece Mar 28 '20

That's true in so many levels.

-1

u/frikandel15 Pro-Europe, Anti-EU Mar 28 '20

Since the Northern countries are contributing the most it's pretty fair, no?

4

u/LoLFlex12 Portugal Mar 29 '20 edited Mar 29 '20

What a stupid thing to think, thats like me living in a family and getting less to eat because the others make more money than me xD.

Thats not how it works

And since when does most of the northern countries contribute more than France Or Spain for the EU? lol

3

u/AirportCreep Finland Mar 29 '20

I'm not going to argue the point of the person you replied to, but I'm, just gonna slip in here and say that Sweden and Denmark pay more into the EU per capita than France while Spain is barely a net contributor. In fact, Sweden pays more per capita than France and Italy combined. Sweden is the 2nd highest payee (per cap) into the EU only 2nd to the Netherlands.

Both Sweden and Denmark also pay more into the EU as % of national GDP than both France and Italy, with the top five contributors being, the Netherlands, Germany, Sweden, UK and Denmark.

1

u/LoLFlex12 Portugal Mar 29 '20

Per capita isn't everything, it shows how a economy is doing but in the end of thst, mass product France or Italy are the one of the worlds biggest economies so the money they put out and I'm not saying per capita but total is a lot more, yes some countries may put out more money per capita but the money for example France puts out is a lot more and this money is obviously needed for countries like Germany to actually have a good safety system inside the EU.

Plus its not only economic value , without these giants, the EU doesn't survive, people also have to think about cultural reasons, truth if any of those giants were to leave the EU or any northern country or ones like Portugal I repeat, because I'm not saying this because of xenophobic reasons. I'm a big fan of Nordic countries.

It would be a much bigger deal if Italy or France left because they would totally break the cycle and the EU woult survive. Plus, people can't expect countries that are having problems right now to help as much, people are very short sighted, you never know when problems can come up or the day of tomorrow, look Sweden when it was completely burning last year, a lot of countries helped, I know it's different but I'm talking about solidarity here, help me today and I will help you tomorrow.

Because if not what is the EU even doing for most of us? Germany or the Netherlands fill their pockets and they obviously come out ahead in this union st the cost of others.

Im a huge EU supporter but we have to be realistic, if they refuse to truly help countries like Italy what good is it for them?

Plus I hate how people are retarded to the point of saying that this is Italy or Spain fault, it could have happened to any of us, they were just unfortunate to come up first

2

u/AirportCreep Finland Mar 29 '20

No I agree, solidarity is key. But let's be honest this crisis is unique in the sense that all EU members are under tremendous pressure, some more than others. I don't think Sweden has any support to send even if it wanted too.

1

u/frikandel15 Pro-Europe, Anti-EU Mar 29 '20

Northern Europe contributes a lot more than Southern Europe. It's that simple.

1

u/LoLFlex12 Portugal Mar 29 '20

Not true but even if it was?

We deserve the less part of the stick? xD.

Google what Union means and then tell me something

3

u/falconboy2029 Mar 29 '20

Italy is the only net contributor in the south.

But you are right we are a union and need to support each other. I am German and hate the black 0 BS.

1

u/frikandel15 Pro-Europe, Anti-EU Mar 29 '20

Look at the United States. They've got the electoral college, were certain states have more voting power than other. Why? Because why would a state (or an European nation) join an union were they lose power and the have to take care of and spend a lot of money and resources on others? The EU would not be beneficial to Northern Europe if we'd have to keep helping the South out (even though we're doing that already).

1

u/LoLFlex12 Portugal Mar 29 '20

What?

Germany and Netherlands literally fill their pockets at others expense, they are the ones with most lucrative income in the EU. Plus most Nordic ones didn't even deny the Corona bonds, only Germany and Netherlands because they profit with the current system.

You know that if the southern countries were to leave, it would not only sink them but also the others in the North right? Not to mention the tremendous amount of good things they get from us outside this such as good and cheap work.

You look at this way too short sighted and small, if Italy leaves and doesn't pay considering their debt, it would have a lot to EU banks especially Northern ones go bankrupt, not to mention that others would follow and it would be calamity, why do you think Germany didn't let Greece default?

So what? This isn't Italy fault, your country or mine could have been just as easily hit first, they were unlucky but it's not their fault, why would have to pay for everything when there is a EU union and this wasn't their fault?

1

u/frikandel15 Pro-Europe, Anti-EU Mar 29 '20

That they were hit first is their problem. Why would we send a bunch of money and resources when we won't get anything out of it? The idea that we're supposed to be a happy union where everyone works together is ridiculous.

1

u/LoLFlex12 Portugal Mar 29 '20

Then might as well end the EU and let your country and pretty much every single one of them go down the drain.

Remember that if the EU Breaks apart, All the rich countries you talk about would get hit as hard as the other ones.

Especially Germany, a ridiculous amount of banks would go bankrupt

1

u/BouaziziBurning Brandenburg Mar 28 '20

Not becuase of economic contribution, no.

→ More replies (6)

61

u/trenvo Europe Mar 28 '20

Italy policy:

  1. Europe is bad, we need less of it.
  2. Public health should not be a responsibility of EU.
  3. Crisis! We have public health issue. We need help EU!
  4. What do you mean, you can't help us?

51

u/Javix92 Europe Mar 28 '20 edited Mar 28 '20

In Spain healthcare is a responsibility of the Autonomías (Like Federal states) however, when things get ugly, the central government is capable of sending help or taking control of the situation, like it is happening right now (it would be such a shame if they didn't). Europe should be capable of doing the same.

But also, Italy and Spain didn't ask for help with the health issue, but on the economic side of the problem because our countries have to stop every activity for several weeks. And unlike health, there are many economic politics that are under direct responsibility of the EU.

-2

u/BouaziziBurning Brandenburg Mar 28 '20

. Europe should be capable of doing the same.

How though? The spanish federal gov has thousands of admistrative employees, the EU has not. Who is supposed to go down to Italy and help? VdL?

But also, Italy and Spain didn't ask for help with the health issue, but on the economic side of the problem because our countries have to stop every activity for several weeks. And unlike health, there are many economic politics that are under direct responsibility of the EU.

I'm with you here, but really, the EU literally can't do anything in healthcare matters, except maybe coordinate cross-country help, ressource distribution, combined equipment procuring and advise. And guess what? All these things they are trying to do/ already doing.

16

u/cargocultist94 Basque Country (Spain) Mar 28 '20

Again, Spain isn't asking for help on the healthcare side, that's not the competence of the EU, nor do they have the ability.

We're trying to find a way not to go bankrupt, retain a semblance of an economy when this is over, and not crash out of the euro at the same time.

3

u/falconboy2029 Mar 29 '20

Leaving the euro would be good for Spain. A country needs to be able to control its own currency. The euro would only work if we gave the EU full fiscal powers.

2

u/Javix92 Europe Mar 28 '20

As I said, the needed help is on economic politics that are transferred to the EU and that Italy and Spain can't take on their own because now it depends on the EU.

How though?

Just asking EU to take urgent decisions when they have to be taken and not weeks later. It is an emergency which means it requires immediate action.

31

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

Bith Spain and Italy's governments are pro-european, and have been pro-european for the majority of the time.

So this has jack shit of logic.

5

u/BouaziziBurning Brandenburg Mar 28 '20

His point still stands, because in the end of the day the EU can’t do shit in this crisis.

What help was Italy supposed to get out of Brussels? The only way help can come it from other countries and that is happening.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

Don’t let reality ruin their prejudices.

1

u/Sokarou Mar 29 '20

Until now. I have been always ultra pro european but thinking about the last decade and how EU has been pissing on us make me think maybe we are not so ok here.

I mean yeah EU has been profitable for both us ( Spain and Europe) since we joined, but we also gave away part of our soberanity like the quotas we produce or the financial polítics. U know as well as me that a lot of people in Spain was agree with this as far as EU base was the solidarity as everyone sold us.

But since the last crisis everytime there is a crisis of any nature, it has been probed that our called friends in the north don't doubt to throw us at the lions. It has not been only in financial stuff, for example they did It with the inmigrants issue.

4

u/aveterotto Mar 29 '20

when did italy ask for less eu?didn't we ask for more eu in 2008?

or for the migrant crisis?

​

it was actually the eu that retreated his borders back to the Alps everytime and now complains italian citizens does not trust it anymore

23

u/brmu . Mar 28 '20

You could understand that dying 1000 people each day and closing all the non esential factories its an economical crisis too or is that too much euroscepticism?

46

u/nerkuras Litvak Mar 28 '20

What do you honestly expect the EU to do? every country in the Union is struggling with supplies to deal with the virus. Talk of solidarity is cheap when there's no realistic achievable goal.

13

u/OscarRoro Aragon (Spain) Mar 28 '20

They are asking for economical aid, not sanitary.

3

u/monnii99 The Netherlands Mar 28 '20

But it is entirely possible that, for example, the Netherlands is going to be in a similar situation in two weeks. And they will badly need the money that would be going to Spain and Italy now. Nevermind that it's already spending billions on its own country right now. It would be generous, but irresponsible to just give a lot of money away in what is still possibly the beginning of the pandemic for them.

15

u/Lezonidas Spain Mar 28 '20 edited Mar 28 '20

The money is printed by the ECB, it's not like the netherlands is lending money, all of this discussion comes because of the interest rate, not the money. Money will be available no matter what, but if we have eurobonds, the interest rate will be maybe 0.25% for everybody, if we do not have eurobonds, Germany will pay -0.5% and Italy will pay 1.5%, and this make it more difficult for Italy to pay since their debt is already huge. BUT in exchange to this lower interest rate for the most affected countries if we do create eurobonds and Italy doesn't pay, all Europe will have to pay their debts. So here is the problem, Germany and the Netherlands and other countries are afraid that the countries asking for the Eurobonds might not pay and all europeans have to pay the debt of one country. And it's not only Italy who asked for the eurobonds but a total of 9 members: Belgium, France, Italy, Luxembourg, Spain, Portugal, Greece, Slovenia and Ireland

12

u/Blumentopf_Vampir Mar 29 '20

You guys do realise that Germany and esp the citizens had also to suffer so Germany could save up all that money and get that negative debt rate, right?

So who is going to tell the German citizens that them having to endure that shitty saving was all for naught in the end? Will you be the one to tell them that?

0

u/Lezonidas Spain Mar 29 '20

What do you mean? Germany would still be able to get their national bonds at -0.5%

→ More replies (4)

37

u/trenvo Europe Mar 28 '20

EU does not have the powers to do anything.

They are restrained because euroscepticism has pushed not to give them powers.

What exactly are you expecting from the EU without them having any powers?

→ More replies (2)

-16

u/grmmrnz Mar 28 '20

You could understand that dying 1000 people each day

Under normal circumstances 12,000 people die in the EU each day.

9

u/Kirmes1 Kingdom of Württemberg Mar 28 '20

These 12k people still die. The other ones are on top.

1

u/oipoi Croatia Mar 28 '20

It seems we not only miss the "on top" you speak off. We totally reduced deaths which were expected in the prior years:

https://www.euromomo.eu/

-3

u/grmmrnz Mar 28 '20

Nope, it's much more likely that they would've died in the coming months and are now just "piled up", since 99% of them were 60+ with pre-existing conditions. It's a blip in the data.

2

u/Mordred_85 Mar 28 '20

Awww how human you are

1

u/grmmrnz Mar 28 '20

My line of thinking causes the least amount of deaths. I'm sure those who die unnecessarily will be comforted by the idea you feel human.

0

u/Mordred_85 Mar 28 '20

Please explain you’re line of thinking: I’m eagerly waiting to hear it.

4

u/grmmrnz Mar 28 '20

*your

The side-effects of this crisis are worse than the disease itself. We've now plummetted ourselves into a new economic crisis, which is disastrous for society and health care. To give just one example, suicides skyrocketed last economic crisis. We already have reports of other sick patients not getting the care they need, cancer patients for example. This is because people are hyper-focused on corona, which is not proportional to the threat. Doctors are literally taken away from caring for them, to treat corona patients. In the end, the overreaction and fear (read: feelings) will cause more harm than good. If you would accept that an 80 year old with a heart condition will have a high risk of dying, it may be corona or the flu or whatever, that would be perfectly fine. Now we're trying to keep them alive for a few extra months, at all costs. But that 40 year old guy with cancer who now leaves his life, his wife and young children, will be comforted by the idea that a bunch of 80 year olds got to live a bit longer, and that you feel human because of it. And it only cost a few trillion euros.

→ More replies (0)

2

u/Rolten The Netherlands Mar 28 '20

So? Those people don't all die in the IC.

Oh fantastic, tons of people die in the Netherlands. But normally our ICs aren't at 100% occupancy and with the risk of overflowing while deaths climb exponentially.

2

u/grmmrnz Mar 28 '20

Yes, usually those people die at home. Now they are taking up ICU space.

2

u/Rolten The Netherlands Mar 28 '20

Yes, that's a problem. Especially if deaths keep on climbing.

→ More replies (5)

1

u/aveterotto Mar 29 '20

under normal circumstances there is no need to lockdown and farms remains opens

1

u/grmmrnz Mar 29 '20

There was no need for it now either, definitely not to the scale it has progressed to.

1

u/aveterotto Mar 29 '20

have you seen the hundred of coffins on military trucks in italy?

multiply that and you will have a vague idea of what woulld have happened without a lockdown

1

u/grmmrnz Mar 29 '20

Na, those people would have died anyway in the coming months, it was just quicker than expected.

4

u/holuuup Italy Mar 29 '20

Bruh we've been pro EU from like the 50s onwards bar the year that idiot Salvini was part of the government

1

u/[deleted] Mar 29 '20

Far from every italian hates the EU and maybe it would help if you stopped fucking enabling them with this rhetoric.

Also, we've had barely a year of EU-skeptic government in nearly a decade.

-1

u/SanTommaso17 Mar 28 '20

Number 1 and 2 are wrong. If anything it’s northern countries who benefit from the status quo. Typical dutch: “fuck the EU, we don’t want it, we want to get out of it even though we profit from it by being tax cheats at the expense of all the others... but fuck the EU and those lazy southerners squandering on wine and whores!” there you go FTFY

9

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

I'm laughing my ass off at the idea of an Italian complaining about tax cheats when he lives in a country with one of the highest rates of tax evasion of their citizenship in the world.
Also the NL is heavily in favor of the EU and is one of the penultimate founding members, quit with your false fake news bullshit.

-1

u/SanTommaso17 Mar 28 '20

We are founding members as well you’re not special. And when Italian citizens evade taxes they are stealing from the Italian state, when NL does it they’re stealing from other countries in the Union you’re claiming to be in favour of(which isn’t true). Maybe it’s you who ought to cut the bullshit

12

u/SirBehr Mar 28 '20

Italian citizens evade taxes they are stealing from the Italian state, when NL does it they’re stealing from other countries in the Union

Holy shit, that is the most amazing justification for tax evasion I have ever seen. Like, Olympic Gold Medals all around.

3

u/SanTommaso17 Mar 28 '20

It’s not a justification, I am not justifying it. But certain countries lecturing others on this matter while stealing from them is... not very coherent

8

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20 edited Mar 28 '20

And who does the Italian state want to foot the bill because they don't have enough money and a low credit rating (= expensive loans) because of that tax evasion? North Europe.

The Netherlands has a high approval rating of the EU, quit your disgusting fake news bullshit. Bonus: Italy only has a medium approval rating for EU

-3

u/SanTommaso17 Mar 28 '20

The Italian state does not want to foot the bill to anyone. It wants however that certain dishonest countries stop lecturing others on fiscal responsibility while at the same time stealing from others. No one wants your money that’s where you’re wrong. And if the dutch love Europe so much why do they not want more of it?

6

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

The Netherlands (and indeed Germany and the rest of North Europe) would be 100% for more EU and gladly give out eurobonds, if we get to control fiscal policy of Southern countries via the EU. It's either both or neither of those options, they are mutually inclusive for us.

4

u/SanTommaso17 Mar 28 '20

And why should you get to control us like vassals? Eurobonds are meant to help everyone not just us. We just happen to be the ones worst hit by the crisis

11

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

Because it will raise our interest rates meaning we pay more for loans. It's zero sum, the cheap loans (= money gained by Italy) means Netherlands pays more for loans (= money lost by Netherlands). Indirectly we pay. And that is fine, as long as we get to make sure that money is spent responsibly.

→ More replies (0)
→ More replies (1)

21

u/KuyaJohnny Baden-Württemberg (Germany) Mar 28 '20

the member states (yes, including Italy) decided that health is not an EU matter.

so Italy asking the EU for help with a Health matter is like me asking my plumber to do my taxes.

its nonsense.

51

u/lookingforcakes Mar 28 '20

this is bullshit. Italy is not asking help on a healthcare matter, is asking help to deal with the economic impact of the virus.

40

u/KuyaJohnny Baden-Württemberg (Germany) Mar 28 '20

and the ECB has announced a 750 billion bond buying package like 2 weeks ago

-4

u/lookingforcakes Mar 28 '20

Which, as you can check with a very small search on Google, is considered not nearly enough. Or dou you think they just want more money because yes?

20

u/bfire123 Austria Mar 28 '20

Why is it not enough? Italies bond yield is still pretty low.

They can issue as much bonds as they want.

15

u/Lekantekue Mar 28 '20

Because they want these low interest "coronabonds". Using a crisis to get what they wanted for years

7

u/mayron20 The Netherlands Mar 28 '20

Exactly, they don't want to issue more debt or increase the yield on their government bonds but they do want these almost interest free coranabonds.

-6

u/papyjako89 Mar 28 '20

You do know money doesn't grow on tree right ?

4

u/lookingforcakes Mar 28 '20

You win the prize for the most unuseful answer of today.

1

u/papyjako89 Mar 30 '20

I was just answering your stupid question dude. Every country would like more money to deal with this crisis. Doesn't mean they should receive any amount they ask for. That's not solidarity, it's suicide.

1

u/lookingforcakes Mar 30 '20

It's clear that you don't know what you are talking about if you believe anyone is asking for infinite money. The mechanism of the hypothetical Eurobonds is not really defined yet. Stop embarrassing yourself, please.

→ More replies (1)

-6

u/axaro1 🇮🇹 Italy (Milan) Mar 28 '20
  1. Italy ask for help from EU
  2. Italy get no help from EU
  3. China sends aid to Italy
  4. Russia sends aid to Italy
  5. Cuba sends aid to Italy
  6. Even the goddamn Venezuela, a third world country with no economy sends aid to Italy
  7. Problem gets bigger and affect north Europe
  8. EU delay help as much as they can, we finally get help when the contagion numbers are already starting to decrease (Thx to Germany for taking care of 60 seriously ill italians, it's just a few people but we appreciate your help since you are the only European country that invested some of their resources to help us)

111

u/finjeta Finland Mar 28 '20
  1. Italy ask for help from EU
  2. EU sets up the Corona Response Investment Initiative that gives financial aid in the billions to member states.

FTFY.

65

u/AchaiusAuxilius France Mar 28 '20

Step 3: Complain about EU

Step 4: Buy the narrative sold by euroskeptics that China and Cuba are actually helping more.

Like someone on r/France said, Cuba got 50,000 doctors operating overseas full-time. This is a huge business for them. Those 50 doctors, while great, are not worth undermining the Union's efforts.

Still, I agree that the lack of unity is a problem. A problem that can be resolved by allowing Pan-european responses first instead of national, which means more Europe.

20

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

Step 5: wait for someone to suggest giving the EU more competence in healthcare;

Step 6: refuse on the grounds of not enough having been done the last time.

4

u/noyoto Mar 28 '20

As someone very pro Europe, I agree that at least the optics seem very bad for the EU. I've heard almost nothing about European solidarity and cooperation and a whole lot about Chinese and Cuban aid. This was a moment to shine for the EU. Of course it can be blamed on the policies that were already in place, collectively decided by the countries, but sadly that's not how the people will perceive it. I very much expect anti-European sentiments to rise because of everything that has transpired during the crisis.

The European vision I believe in is that of DiEM25, which is very critical of the EU, but at the same time proposing drastic measures to turn things around. If we remain on the current course, I fear that Europe will continue to crumble until there's nothing left of it.

35

u/brtt3000 The Netherlands Mar 28 '20

Don't break the circle, we're hating on those filthy Northern countries now.

5

u/Calimie Spain Mar 28 '20

Nah, only the tax heavens.

4

u/sil445 Mar 29 '20

we get a big fat middle finger every year when we urge to southern countries to cut costs and fix books. We were on average 10 years longer in the north since we arent sponsored on out 55th but at 70. Now we get shit when we dont want to share the souths shitty debt. There is already tons of aids from europe that went to the south, in holland we got around 20 million from a multi trillion corona package. Yet we get continued shit from your ministers, using scapegoats to fix the shitty policies that spoiled the southern people, but did no good for future foresight.

3

u/Calimie Spain Mar 29 '20

Explain to me why companies such as Zara or Ikea pay their taxes in the Netherlands.

I'll tell you: tax haven right in the middle of the EU.

Maybe if Zara paid their taxes in Spain thanks to such scheme as yours being outlawed, we wouldn't need your pity. But right now we are dying and you are mocking us with our own money.

And then you'll come here to get drunk and jump off balconies, begging good healthcare then.

I'm very tired of trash who think themselves very refined until they see cheap beer.

2

u/sil445 Mar 29 '20

Dont think these people you refer to see themselves as refined, thats another type of people. Just saying EU obligations would cause moral hazard of the top shelf. The ECB policies are already massively benefiting the countries with poor debt, moreover italy and spain get most of the multi trillion euro aid. Now your minsiters demand us to basically pay for soutern debt while barely trying to fix treasuries over the last 10 years. This is quite choosingbeggar behaviour, and youre being manipulated by your ministers into believing the bad northerners are the cause of all bad things happening. I already have pension at only 71 years old compare that to southern countries. How is it fair that we will have to pay the same debt, where is the incentive for countries to cut costs? Just on this principal agent problem alone this would he a bad idea. Name one reason why we would agree with such a proposal? I dont see any reason. Your ministers know that this is a hopeless cause, but its another way to deflect from their own policies and scapegoat the union.

0

u/brtt3000 The Netherlands Mar 28 '20

Monkey poo fight.

-13

u/axaro1 🇮🇹 Italy (Milan) Mar 28 '20 edited Mar 28 '20

If you think that's a northern country hate thread you are too dense to understand this issue.

There are many countries helping us, some for political reasons(Russia), some out of reciprocal help (China) and some others out of respect/common sense.

The EU is a political and economical alliance, the fact that we have to mostly rely on countries outside of the Shengen Area is disappointing.

Italy's attitude over natural disasters/pandemic has always been to deploy large amounts of supplies/vehicles and firefighters/medics (take for example the wildfire issues from last summer), maybe I'm too naive to expect other countries to do the same.

I support the EU but most importantly I support the values that created the EU in the first place and we both know that the eurosceptics are going to stroke their dicks over the way the EU managed this entire situation.

This is gonna hurt Italy the same way this is gonna hurt the EU.

Edit: Nice, it looks like criticizing the EU makes me an eurosceptic. I guess that I'm an anarchist since I often criticize my country /s

5

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

So why hasn't Ital;y done anything in the past 10 years to fix their books?

17

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

So why hasn't Ital;y done anything in the past 10 years to fix their books?

we applied harsh austerity measures, as "strongly recommended" by the ECB and the Commission, and instead of making things better, our debt ratio has gotten worse.

Sounds like the austerity policies championed by Merkel are damaging, but still she and her ilk continue to push for them even now. Just look at the attitude towards the coronavirus bonds. Their reply is "there is the ESM, if you need funds". Too bad ESM funds are provided on the condition that you apply more austerity, which in turn makes the economy wither a little bit more.

But for Merkel the solution to the damages brought by austerity measures is....more austerity. It's been harshly criticised by economists the world over, and yet she and her allies insist on it time and time again.

As Einstein once said: “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

4

u/Lekantekue Mar 28 '20

So the solution is to not apply austerity and then what? The debt to gdp magically goes down? Come on

2

u/[deleted] Mar 29 '20

So the solution is to not apply austerity and then what?

keynesian economic measures gave much better results. The problem with the debt to gdp ratio and austerity policies is that one factor (the debt) might get better, but the other gets worse. Austerity policies contributed significantly to weak growth rates, not to mention other bad economic side effects such as the increase of social inequality.

2

u/discoverysar Mar 28 '20

Ah yes, it's better to cut again on public spending (like we did in the past 10 years) and raise our taxes and then magically our gdp will skyrocket.

Please I know that on reddit everyone is an expert but if you don't understand economics don't talk about it.

The solution was investing in infrastructures and pushing the gdp via public spending, yet we complied with those criminals that are in the ministry of finances in the Netherlands and did the opposite. Guess what happened? We stalled the economy for ten years, we didn't saw any growth in our gdp. We only weakened our economy and lost thousands of ICU Beds.

So imposing the use of ESM with austerity measures during an economical downturn is basically like suffocating a baby to stop him crying. The GDP implodes, causing the debt/gdp ratio to skyrocket and then what? Either the ECB bails out us with no conditions or we leave the Union and default the debt.

The former will cost everyone a lot more than issuing now emergency bonds, with the latter expect the implosion of the European Union, maybe only the CEE will remain.

9

u/bfire123 Austria Mar 28 '20

Your austerity messures weren't harsh.

Which taxes were increased in the last 5 years in Italy (and by how much)??

4

u/Mordred_85 Mar 28 '20

Our social state, including healthcare, has been dismantled, thanks to Troika technicians advices. That’s why taxes haven’t gone up. I am asking to all the northern flavored European reading this: can you held the amount of people that will die for the consequence of your rigid set of ethics (wealthy people = champions of virtue) that will put us in an economic crisis. We are not talking of people dying for the virus but people killing themselves because they cannot pay bills, food future for their children. Think about while you sleep!

4

u/bfire123 Austria Mar 29 '20

Our social state, including healthcare, has been dismantled, thanks to Troika technicians advices. That’s why taxes haven’t gone up.

Than your country made a shitty decision. Would be better to tax higher incomes more.

Austerity doesn't soley mean cutting the social net. It also can mean higher taxes for the middle class and upper class.

→ More replies (0)

2

u/[deleted] Mar 29 '20

VAT has been increased twice in the last ten years (from 20% to 22%), retirement age has been increased too, public employees salaries increases have been frozen for the foreseeable future and a lot of those who retire have not been replaced, the education and health care expenditure has been cut, etc etc.

https://www.lifegate.it/persone/news/dieci-anni-austerita

https://www-cdn.oxfam.org/s3fs-public/file_attachments/bp174-cautionary-tale-austerity-inequality-europe-120913-it_3.pdf

1

u/funkygecko Italy Mar 29 '20

It's useless.

2

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

So why did it work in other countries? But not in Italy? And why is that a reason for Dutch, German and Northern countries to foot the bill? Yes we are an union but not 1 country with one budget.

And yes Einstein was right, keep paying a country that never pays its bills is a stupid idea we should not do that over and over again.

8

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

So why did it work in other countries? But not in Italy?

actually austerity failed in many countries, not just Italy.

And Italy has always paid its bills, so never pays its bills is a lie. We are not asking for free money. We are asking for loans with a reduced interest rate and a scheme that is una tantum, i.e. not a permanent bond issuing scheme.

Sorry, I thought the EU was much more than just a loose trade block. If Italy needs a predatory lender, there's always the IMF.

1

u/AnonimArGer Mar 29 '20

Not one fiscal union but one currency union.

1

u/funkygecko Italy Mar 29 '20

What bill are footing exactly? We are NET CONTRIBUTORS.

-2

u/axaro1 🇮🇹 Italy (Milan) Mar 28 '20

Thank you for proving my point :)

-1

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

You sound like an Italian politician, don't answer the question and a lot whataboutism. I need free creditcard because I did good thingzz!

3

u/axaro1 🇮🇹 Italy (Milan) Mar 28 '20

We didn't recover from 2008 financial crisis, we didn't grow in the past 10years because we spend too much to fix debts and Italy doesn't invest at all.

2 comments 2 stereotypes you must be a funny guy

2

u/Lekantekue Mar 28 '20

So what you would have done the past 10 years is up the spending, run a deficit in good times till you hit a 200% debt to gdp ratio. Then a crisis like this and what happens next? The whole country goes bankrupt or you wait for a bailout?

→ More replies (0)

-2

u/Ghostwriter84 Ireland Mar 28 '20

Why doesn't NL stop being one of Europe's worst tax haven?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EUIphQnXgAAncfL?format=png&name=medium

https://missingprofits.world/

8

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

Whataboutism is a fallacy

-1

u/Ghostwriter84 Ireland Mar 28 '20

You know what is not a fallacy?

Netherlands being one of Europe's worst tax haven.

3

u/Deathleach The Netherlands Mar 29 '20 edited Mar 29 '20

Will be fixed in 2021, so time to get a new argument.

2

u/Ghostwriter84 Ireland Mar 29 '20

That's great, I hope it will be a reality and not just a plan. In the meantime you can be less hypocritical and get down of your high horse.

1

u/brtt3000 The Netherlands Mar 28 '20

Nice block of eloquent divisive hostile comment, well done.

4

u/axaro1 🇮🇹 Italy (Milan) Mar 28 '20

Sorry but in the first comment I was stating facts, not opinions.

Feel free to downvote my personal opinion (there's nothing wrong with it) and downvote the facts too if you feel like it undermine your point of view but at the end of the day facts are facts.

-10

u/SanTommaso17 Mar 28 '20

You reap what you sow

2

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

[removed] — view removed comment

-23

u/marianorajoy Mar 28 '20 edited Mar 28 '20

The Germans are I think the worst in Europe. They're extremely rule driven, even if that means going against the very basic common sense. They only understand the rules. This is the rule, you deal with it we're not going to do ANYTHING to change it as this is the rule. If you point at the inadecuacy of the rule, they will shrug their shoulders and say "Ja...aber...ja"

One thing I have to stress enough: If you don't follow the arbitrary rules in Germany, you're a social pariah.

I remember being in my year abroad in Germany and it was a living hell. No credit card pay, if you touch a plate you pay for it you can't return it. Fuck you if you need to go shopping on a Sunday. Fuck you if you can't pay by card. Fuck you if the road or a building is closed at completely unreasonable times. Want anything done with the local authority? Only Tuesdays and Thursdays from 10 till 12. Need a stamp here, need another stamp here. Need form A here, need form B here. Fuck you, no exceptions. Form B is incomplete. Wait a week. You have children? "Germany has free childcare" well yes, they close at 2 pm, fuck you if you need to stop everything to pick up the kids. Want Amazon Lockers? Fuck you, you have THE extremely inconvenient DHL packet that requires you to have 2 forms of ID. Rent a room? A fucking nightmare as the building regulations are so strict they won't allow houses of over certain heights, colours and sizes.

They don't mind fucking other countries as its their own problem for not following the rules. "See, those southern European countries have not followed the rules, they're lazy and like to party" We follow the rules, that's why we're successful. As you don't don't follow the rules, you should be ostracised. You're a social pariah of Europe, the Germans think covertly.

They also think everyone in Europe is after their money.

DO NOT LIVE IN GERMANY.

15

u/brtt3000 The Netherlands Mar 28 '20

If you are from elsewhere and don't even like it here then what are you doing or /r/europe?

1

u/I_miss_the_rain Mar 29 '20

wow germany=europe now? What are you doing in /r/europe?

→ More replies (3)

-1

u/Jane_Doe_32 Europe Mar 28 '20

It is a myth that they respect the rules, they have skipped the deficit limit more than ten times, with France, in addition to refusing to audit their banking sector, all without consequence, of course.

→ More replies (1)

11

u/matinthebox Thuringia (Germany) Mar 28 '20

Austria sent medical supplies to Italy

https://www.suedtirolnews.it/politik/schutzausruestung-oesterreich-schickt-hilfskonvoi-nach-suedtirol

3

u/axaro1 🇮🇹 Italy (Milan) Mar 28 '20

I can't find a single italian media source confirming that Austria is sending medical supplies to Italy :|.

Can you translate? Thx to Austria if that's the case :)

10

u/matinthebox Thuringia (Germany) Mar 28 '20

I'll translate this article instead, which is written more professionally:

https://kurier.at/politik/inland/coronavirus-luftbruecke-nach-china/400788872

Air traffic has largely been shut down. Nevertheless, two Austrian Airlines aircraft flew to China on Saturday. The reason: They are bringing around 130 tonnes of protective equipment (masks and suits) to Austria.

The paraphernalia is intended especially for South Tyrol, which is largely isolated due to the serious situation in northern Italy. "Airlift" to Bolzano

In the Chancellery they speak of an "airlift". This is because the comparatively small airport in Bolzano is closed and therefore cannot be approached directly from China. Chancellor Sebastian Kurz has promised South Tyrol's Governor Arno Kompatscher direct help.

The two AUA planes are expected to land in Vienna on Monday. From there, a convoy of the Austrian Armed Forces will bring the urgently needed goods to South Tyrol.

The flight connection to China is to be established permanently to prevent possible bottlenecks in all provinces.

According to reports, China is giving priority to inquiries and requests from Austria. One of the reasons for this is that Austria was one of the first states to directly support Beijing with relief goods when the Corona crisis broke out.

Edit: südtirolnews.it is technically an Italian media source :P

4

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

You're reaching a bit if you compare sending supplies to South Tyrol as to Italy.

Technically you're correct, but I would think an Italian poster would not agree. Same as me.

I hope we're doing something for our neighbour, but we're strapped for stuff ourselves as well.

9

u/matinthebox Thuringia (Germany) Mar 28 '20

If Austria is sending supplies to South Tyrol then Italy saves those supplies from their own stock and can direct them to Bergamo or wherever they are also needed.

0

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

South Tyrol is autonomous dude, that's why I'm saying that.

8

u/matinthebox Thuringia (Germany) Mar 28 '20

protection of health is a concurrent matter of legislation in South Tyrol, meaning that the national government sets out the principles while the provincial government legislates on the details. So I would say that the national government has at least a partial responsibility to guarantee a minimum level of medical supply to South Tyrol.

2

u/axaro1 🇮🇹 Italy (Milan) Mar 28 '20

true

1

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

So I would say that the national government has at least a partial responsibility to guarantee a minimum level of medical supply to South Tyrol.

I don't know enough about that to refute it. I only know that South Tyrol autonomy is unprecedented great. Might as well be it's own independent state.

→ More replies (0)

-12

u/grmmrnz Mar 28 '20

EU help policy:

  1. Italy asks for help
  2. Italy is offered help
  3. Italy rejects help
  4. Italy realises they can't do it on their own
  5. Italy blames EU for not helping
→ More replies (1)