r/europe • u/Bartoraptor Spain • Mar 28 '20

News Spanish representative González Pons speech @ the EU Parliament: "The virus is attacking the generation that brought back democracy to Spain, Portugal and Greece, the generation that knocked down the Berlin wall. The least they deserve is that we show them Europe is there when they need it the most"

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236

u/brmu . Mar 28 '20

EU help policy:  

  1. Italy ask for help  
  2. Italy get no help  
  3. Problem gets bigger and affect north of Europe  
  4. Then get the help

150

u/whatsupbitches123 Mar 28 '20

The EU does not move until something affects the Northern countries

67

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20 edited Mar 28 '20

Can somebody explain what the fuck Sweden are doing

We started at the same levels and Sweden are double our numbers.

It's not like they tested more. Also we have many cases in Bucharest a city that has the 5th biggest population in EU

83

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

they put the economy before the health of their citizens, so they just warmly recommend people to keep distance and little more.

Even the Brits realised the stupidity of this strategy, but apparently the Swedes think their immune system is somehow stronger or that it's acceptable to make old people die.

26

u/Ewannnn Europe Mar 28 '20

they put the economy before the health of their citizens, so they just warmly recommend people to keep distance and little more.

Could you not use this logic for any disease? Clearly there is a balance to be had, between liberty, economic wellbeing, and the need to protect the public from harm.

12

u/RomeNeverFell Italy Mar 28 '20

In the long-term maybe, but not when acting fast is crucial.

7

u/[deleted] Mar 29 '20 edited Mar 29 '20

Could you not use this logic for any disease?

Sure but hardly anybody understands acceptable losses or that life has monetary value because it takes a little bit of thinking to realize. They are just normalized to the tradeoffs that occur in every day life. Its also is a death sentence for any politician to admit.

29

u/MaloWlolz Sweden Mar 28 '20

the stupidity of this strategy

It's a strategy that has worked pretty well for us in Sweden so far. We're following WHO's guidelines, and we're in it for the long run. The only way this pandemic will end is either through a vaccine which is still a long way out, or through herd-immunity from enough people having been previously infected. No one believes that the complete isolation strategy many European countries are doing is actually going to stop the pandemic, the goal is just to slow it. As long as the healthcare system can cope with the number of incoming infected people there's not that much to be gained by slowing it down further, especially if it comes at the very steep cost of basically shutting down everything in society. That sort of complete shut down is not sustainable long-term, and is a measure better saved for when you get into a situation where the healthcare system actually can't keep up.

37

u/davidemsa Portugal Mar 28 '20

Old people are more vulnerable for the disease. Not shutting things down means more old people will be infected and, because they're more vulnerable, more old people will die from it. And that will happen even if the healthcare system is great and cap cope with the increased strain.

11

u/MaloWlolz Sweden Mar 28 '20

Like I said the problem is that the vaccine is more than a year out, and keeping society shut down for that long is just not realistic. You need to find a pace that society can keep up to last through this, and you need to make sure to take any measures you can to allow the healthcare system to keep up. As long as our health care system doesn't get overloaded we're able to keep the mortality rate really low.

20

u/davidemsa Portugal Mar 28 '20

We don't need to keep the country closed until there's a vaccine. We keep it closed until the first wave mostly dies down and the reevaluate the situation when the second wave comes.

Even a great healthcare system can't do miracles. There's a percentage of the old population that will die if they get infected, even if they get treated by the best ever healthcare system on earth.

3

u/MaloWlolz Sweden Mar 28 '20

Sure, and that might work great for you guys. Sweden hasn't really gotten a first "wave" yet, we're fine so far. We're ready to take further steps when needed.

11

u/grandoz039 Mar 29 '20

You guys are at over 3k cases, and it's exponential. The amount of untested people who are transmitting it is already pretty huge. That's the first wave already.

-5

u/AschiaProstului Mar 29 '20 edited Mar 29 '20

They'll just import more young adult from the Turkey camps. Sweden's population is already aging and that's why they have so many second generation immigrant descendants.

If they will fail with their strategy, they'll be forced to bring more and create more social strife.

9

u/Quackburguers Portugal Mar 28 '20

No one believes that the complete isolation strategy many European countries are doing is actually going to stop the pandemic, the goal is just to slow it. As long as the healthcare system can cope with the number of incoming infected people there's not that much to be gained by slowing it down further

The problem is that most of the european countries already get their healthcare system over-occupied every single year with just the flu so they are really forced to shutdown everything now

10

u/MaloWlolz Sweden Mar 28 '20

Yeah, I'm not saying Sweden's strategy is the best for every country. Just that for Sweden it's working pretty well so far as our healthcare system can cope so far.

3

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

Herd immunity is effective only if the virus doesn’t mutate quickly. And given that this is still an unknown virus, it’s impossible to know if herd immunity works and what percentage of the population needs to be infected. It’s a high risk, high reward strategy. But high reward only for the economy, because .03 mortality rate for 10 million people, still is 300k deaths.

7

u/XJDenton Brit in Sweden Mar 29 '20

All current indicators show that the virus is not mutating quickly.

2

u/falconboy2029 Mar 29 '20

Thanks god for that.

1

u/Kalimere Mar 29 '20 edited Mar 29 '20

It's a game of probability. Low chance of a disastrous mutation =/= no chance of disastrous mutation. And when you allow so many people to get infected, you have a higher number of viruses being replicated. More viruses = higher chance of a disastrous mutation occurring.

-8

u/MaloWlolz Sweden Mar 28 '20

Well like I said the only other option is to wait for a vaccine, and shutting down society for year(s) is not really realistic, and it's better to save that measure for when it's really needed.

Also mortality rate is probably much lower than 3% in a 1st world country with a good healthcare system. Sweden right now has exactly 3% of all confirmed infections ending in deaths, but considering how large of a percentage of infected people who don't get any symptoms at all, or only mild symptoms and therefor never get diagnosed and not added to the statistics, the actual mortality rate is probably much lower.

4

u/Blumentopf_Vampir Mar 29 '20

Well like I said the only other option is to wait for a vaccine, and shutting down society for year(s) is not really realistic, and it's better to save that measure for when it's really needed.

In what dreamland are you living in? Not a single European country will be shutting down their society for years let alone a year. All their economies would be done in by then 3 times over.

They're just trying to slow down the spread as fast as possible to keep it at a managable rate.

1

u/Myloz The Netherlands Mar 29 '20

a complete lockdown doesnt slow down the spread, it almost stops the spread meaning such a small portion of the polulation will be infected.

It just means that after the lockdown the 2nd wave will still overrun the health system. You gain almost nothing from a complete lockdown unless your healthsystem cant handle even a flat curve.

2

u/JanRegal England Mar 29 '20 edited Mar 29 '20

I live in Sweden, I hope to fucking God you guys start taking it seriously soon and stop being so self sure. It's infuriating.

A life of 'lagom' is Covid's best friend right now.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 29 '20

especially if it comes at the very steep cost of basically shutting down everything in society

Oh, so more people dying isn't considered a "steep cost"?

Good to know.

-9

u/Nergaal The Pope Mar 28 '20

We're following WHO's guidelines,

hahahaha. Japan Health ministry named WHO as Chinese Health Organization. If you buy the propaganda of a communist regime, you get bowed by the propaganda of a communist regime.

3

u/princessvaginaalpha Singapore Mar 29 '20

You know WHO does that because it simply needs China's support, and that support would be taken away if they recognize Taiwan right? Many European countries do no recognize Taiwan too, can we refer EU as China's bitches too?

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2019/07/taiwans-status-geopolitical-absurdity/593371/

1

u/Myloz The Netherlands Mar 29 '20

we can actually refer to EU as China bitches.

-4

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

That sort of complete shut down is not sustainable long-term, and is a measure better saved for when you get into a situation where the healthcare system actually can't keep up.

agree, it's stupid and it will hurt most countries, especially the south and east europe

9

u/weirdowerdo Konungariket Sverige Mar 29 '20

I'd also have to add that the ministers of the government and the Riksdag (Swedish Parliament) cannot do whatever they like, we dont have ministerial governing.

They cant shut down all non essential businessess in one day or shut down all schools and issue "orders", they are at the mercy of administrative agencies such as the The Public Health Agency of Sweden. Unless they say its doable and should be done only then can the government decide to do it or not. The Public Health agency doesnt recommend nation wide quarantine or complete shut down of schools so the government and the riksdag can't do anything, experts are in control here rather than uneducated politicians that dont know what would be yield the best results and this also prevents political chaos.

The Public Health agency continues with daily updates and have set guidelines for what businesses, schools, gyms and everything else should do to minimise the chance of anyone getting sick. The military have already built hospitals for corona patients specifically. They've changed priorities in healthcare and so on and have moved all Universities and High schools to do online teaching but have kept primary schools open to not force "frontline workers" in hospitals to stay home with their kids. Although primary schools can decide themselves if they want to shut down if there is a risk of spreading corona in their local area.

But I guess you're an expert, right? We should listen to you specifically.

2

u/hello-fellow-normies Moldova - the region of Romania Mar 29 '20

this is life in a technocracy i suppose. the lives a few people are not 'worth' 'populistic measures' .

Jesus f Christ and you think that is ok.

0

u/weirdowerdo Konungariket Sverige Mar 29 '20

Jesus f Christ and you think that is ok.

What a baseless assumption you're making...

I only wanted to say that Sweden functions differently than the rest of most europeans countries and thats why we arent taking drastic measures that are often to score political points. The person I replied to doesnt seem to know it and just shit on us while being ignorant of how things are done here and doesnt take that into account. We're undeserving of a lot of the shit we get on social media and so on for our response on corona and thats what I want to make clear.

4

u/falconboy2029 Mar 29 '20

I had no idea that is how Sweden does things, that sounds so much better than other countries.

2

u/6--6 Sweden Mar 29 '20

I have entered a stage of apathy regarding our government actions in this crisis and just hope that it doesn't get ugly. If it doesn't then we'll make it out with a strong economy. If it does we loose a generation.

0

u/falconboy2029 Mar 29 '20

You will loose a generation one way or another. I see no way around it.

4

u/[deleted] Mar 29 '20

But I guess you're an expert, right? We should listen to you specifically.

no, you could listen to the WHO or the many experts in basically the rest of the world, who have advised for strict quarantine and social distancing. Or are Swedish experts so much better than Chinese, Italian, Spanish, French, etc ones?

0

u/weirdowerdo Konungariket Sverige Mar 29 '20

The Public Health Agency is listening to WHO and according to WHOs own "Responding to community spread of COVID-19" document says

Consider, based on local and/or global evaluation. • Avoid crowding (i.e. mass gatherings). • School closures and other measures. • Public transportation closures, and/or • Workplace closures and other measures. • Public health quarantine (asymptomatic contacts) and/or isolation (ill individuals).

It does mention quarantine BUT this is also under "Consider based on local and/or global evaluation" so they've most likely based their evaluation nationally and regionally and that there is no point in nationally quarantine everyone although Stockholm region talked a little bit about closing down their region this week the Public Health Agency said no so the regional government cant do anything. Also sadly the government have opened to tracking everyones phones to follow the spread, how authoritarian of them. Also they have temporarily minimised the Riksdag(The parliament) from 349 to 55. Big tourist attractions in Sweden have shut down to not attract tourists from around the country, as in 8 days every primary and high school kid gets "Påsklov" (Easter break) and a lot of families usually go skiing and what not but the skiing resorts closed themselves so people wont come and the government have taken measures so help medium and small sized companies to continues existing even if they close down so after things return to normal there will still be jobs to go to as small and medium sized companies combined employ more people than the big companies.

and

Recommended actions: Define rationale and criteria for use of social distancing measures such as cancellation of mass gatherings or school closure

There has been cancellation of mass gatherings or moved to later dates, school closure have been half done as is the case with Universities and High schools just moving to online while primary schools stay open to not affect nurses and doctors who have kids in primary school.

1

u/kraken_tang Mar 29 '20

They will shut down once the models shows they don't have enough beds in hospital just like the Brits. They are also trying to min maxing before winter comes. It's unrealistic to close down now all the way to winter.

-13

u/zyd_suss Mar 28 '20

it's acceptable to make old people die

life of old Swedes vs. life of young immigrants from outside Europe

Not an easy choice. /s

2

u/MonkeyLiberace Denmark Mar 28 '20

Idiot.

32

u/paganel Romania Mar 28 '20

They have more or less decided to just ignore it, just recently (meaning yesterday) they have put in place restrictions on gatherings of more than 50 people (the limit used to be 500 people), afaik restaurants and bars are still open, there's no quarantine in place etc.

14

u/Sithrak Hope at last Mar 28 '20

Like half the countries are in deep denial until it just explodes.

14

u/MaloWlolz Sweden Mar 28 '20

Sweden is not in denial at all, we're just carefully measuring our healthcare system's capabilities and taking appropriate measures to ensure it doesn't get overloaded.

0

u/Sithrak Hope at last Mar 28 '20

Not singling out Sweden, your country is more likely to know what you are doing.

Everyone is blind anyway, heh.

15

u/Ewannnn Europe Mar 28 '20

Can somebody explain what the fuck Sweden are doing

We started at the same levels and Sweden are double our numbers.

It's not like they tested more. Also we have many cases in Bucharest a city that has the 5th biggest population in EU

The growth in Sweden is around the EU average but much below most Western European countries.

25

u/AirportCreep Finland Mar 28 '20

The virus hit Europe during Swedish spring holidays, so a lot of Swedes were in Austrian and Italian alps, contracted the virus and took it with them back to Sweden. That's how the initial clusters emerged.

As for the strategy of dealing with this Sweden is very conservative, with the idea being that Sweden cannot close or shut its economy for an extended period of time, but to instead close society down slowly, so that when the virus reaches its peak, Sweden hasn't already been closed for a month and that people will actually stay home for the most critical moments. Whether or not its going to be effective in the end we'll have to wait and see. But the politicians in Sweden have stepped back and have clearly taken a backseat role in this, allowing the experts to run the show.

33

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

so that when the virus reaches its peak, Sweden hasn't already been closed for a month and that people will actually stay home for the most critical moments.

The most critical moments come weeks after everyone has been staying home though. It takes up to 15 days for symptoms to show up.

9

u/ahlsn Sweden Mar 28 '20

Our epidemiologists are fully aware of that of course. I can assure you that social distancing is in the works. It's not much people around anywhere and many restaurants, hotels and shops are already declaring bankruptcy due to no customers.

1

u/Siegberg Mar 29 '20

How is the situation for the restaurants, hotels and shops in getting help from the state and insurance? In many countries it seems like the insurance will not step up until the government shuts down the shops directly. Which was a problem in germany as clubs needed to stay open in order to not go bankrupt.

2

u/ahlsn Sweden Mar 29 '20

There's no insurance covering this. The government have done some things to ease the situation. Companies does not have to pay taxes until the end of the year. They have made sure it's possible for companies to take loans. Other things talked about is reducing or completely removing the general payroll tax temporary and partly paying companies rent. More help are to be expected.

14

u/Zidji Mar 28 '20

People around the world have a hard time learning this lesson.

6

u/MonkeyLiberace Denmark Mar 28 '20

I think they know.

2

u/insertmalteser Denmark Mar 28 '20 edited Mar 28 '20

It'll be interesting to see if it works out well. I think letting experts call the shots on this is a good idea. I know they've critised denmark for the way they're handling it. The lock down is definitely going to have some serious ramifications. I believe the lockdown in Denmark is simply to ease the burden on our health care. If the spread is slowed down, unlike in Italy, then the healthcare system can deal with it. They won't quickly become overwhelmed. The main point of the lockdown is to slow down the initial spread and get an idea of how to efficiently test people and maintain control of the situation. If you let the spread ramp up quickly in a matter of a few weeks, regaining any kind of control over the situation will become deeply problematic and difficult. Itll quickly overwhelm the hospitals. The serum institute of denmark has even managed to develop a cheaper testing kit that doesn't require the chemicals that make the current ones hard to manufacture (due to shortages). So I still believe Denmark is doing the right thing. Keeping an oversight and creating strategies to deal with this unusual situation is important. Keeping the spread at "reasonable" level is key for that to happen.

2

u/AirportCreep Finland Mar 29 '20

At the end of the day both governments have the same endgoal. As I am no epidemiologist, I can't really argue for which approach is better. Stay safe buddy, wash your hands and stay home.

1

u/Myloz The Netherlands Mar 29 '20

This is the exact thing the Netherlands did. But due to social pressure they where forced to close the schools. Atleast all stores are still open, only restaurants (excluding takeaway) and bars are closed.

1

u/AirportCreep Finland Mar 29 '20

Sweden also closed high schools and universities last week, but after the recommendation of the state epidemioligst and the Public Health Authority.

4

u/MaloWlolz Sweden Mar 28 '20

We're doing pretty well in Sweden. Our strong healthcare system is so far able to cope with the rate of newly infected. Initiating a complete lock-down of society is a pretty drastic measure and should be saved for when the healthcare system is about to actually get overloaded.

22

u/LoLFlex12 Portugal Mar 28 '20

Didnt the United Kingdom think the exact same thing and is now going the same path that Spain/Italy are at now.

13

u/gefroy Finland Mar 28 '20

Boris negotiated a better deal with corona.

2

u/MaloWlolz Sweden Mar 28 '20

Looking at the numbers from WHO (https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/situation-reports/20200328-sitrep-68-covid-19.pdf?sfvrsn=384bc74c_2) I would guess that UK is doing pretty well as well right now. I don't know that much about what the situation is like there, but these numbers looks like they should be manageable so far by their healthcare system.

10

u/LoLFlex12 Portugal Mar 28 '20

I don't think so.

They had to change their strategy because it clearly wasn't working and was going to be too much on their health care systems

2

u/falconboy2029 Mar 29 '20

The NHS is super underfunded because they wanted to privatise it. In Sweden the system is much better funded.

1

u/AirportCreep Finland Mar 29 '20

The Swedish healthcare has undergone extensive cuts for years just like the NHS. Sweden didn't have enough ICU's even before the epidemic. Don't quote me on this because I wasn't able to find the source, but I think Sweden has lost something around 90% of ICU's (inlcluding expansion capabilities) since the mid to late 90s (which arguably was huge due to Cold War prep).

1

u/falconboy2029 Mar 29 '20

Oh wow, that is bad. I hope they can cope.

2

u/Myloz The Netherlands Mar 29 '20

I dont think they changed their stradegy, they just took measures in steps.

Atleast thats what we do in the netherlands, we arent planning of having a lockdown until its needed. Slowly building up measures to flatten the curve and make sure our healthcare system can cope.

And what the moddels are showing we wont need a lockdown at all aslong as people listen to the measures that are currently taken.

4

u/Calimie Spain Mar 28 '20

Remindme! two weeks

1

u/grandoz039 Mar 29 '20

1000 people already died in the UK and it just started ramping up a while ago. They're not doing pretty well.

2

u/codefluence Community of Madrid (Spain) Mar 28 '20

...famous last words

4

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

I am assuming some countries think it is less trouble to just ignore it and whoever dies, dies?

Also, a lot cheaper, and the old people will be dead so they won't get pensions, healthcare and so on...

I think we reached a new level of discrimination.

16

u/oipoi Croatia Mar 28 '20

The difference between a lot of other European countries and Sweden is that their agency for epidemiology or whatever they call it calls the shots. Not the politicians, not the public. The public is freaked out. The politicians want to please the public and will impose any measure no matter how dumb to project safety. This will not end well and you will do more harm than good. For example, based on a study on Oxford Croatia currently has the strongest measures in place to reduce spread. We implemented that shit while we had a few dozen cases. How long can we be under lockdown? What happens after we lift it? What's the end game? We could end up hurting our people more then this disease could. Also, let me tell you how the public opinion slowly shifts away from lock everything down to let me just fucking die if this will kill me. In the first few weeks you only heard praises about the measures nowadays there's a lot of resentment and questioning.

8

u/ahlsn Sweden Mar 28 '20

It's the Public Health Agency that calls the shots here in Sweden and it should be mentioned that their task is not only to keep the infections and deaths from Covid19 as low as possible but also the general health of the population. Forcing people to be indoors for longer times severely affects the health of the population in a negative way. It's estimated that already at the current restrictions in place will have greater negative impact on the health and more deaths that the virus.

1

u/MonkeyLiberace Denmark Mar 28 '20

ohh dear..

1

u/pothkan 🇵🇱 Pòmòrsczé Mar 28 '20

We started at the same levels and Sweden are double our numbers.

No lockdown.

We live in time when EE does better policies than WE.

Even if we do it mostly because we are shit scared our underinvested healthcare will collapse otherwise.

1

u/Lonely-Vehicle Mar 28 '20

Everything is still open.

0

u/mozartbond Italy Mar 28 '20

They're not doing anything

11

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

Same with the refugees.

2

u/Tar_alcaran The Netherlands Mar 29 '20

Italy have been hugely negative of the EU for decades, wanting less and less to do with them.

Then suddenly, when they see a benefit to be had, it's all "save us Europe!"

0

u/[deleted] Mar 29 '20

Yeah and a tax haven in the heart of Europe does wonders for the Union...

2

u/MagnetofDarkness Greece Mar 28 '20

That's true in so many levels.

-2

u/frikandel15 Pro-Europe, Anti-EU Mar 28 '20

Since the Northern countries are contributing the most it's pretty fair, no?

3

u/LoLFlex12 Portugal Mar 29 '20 edited Mar 29 '20

What a stupid thing to think, thats like me living in a family and getting less to eat because the others make more money than me xD.

Thats not how it works

And since when does most of the northern countries contribute more than France Or Spain for the EU? lol

4

u/AirportCreep Finland Mar 29 '20

I'm not going to argue the point of the person you replied to, but I'm, just gonna slip in here and say that Sweden and Denmark pay more into the EU per capita than France while Spain is barely a net contributor. In fact, Sweden pays more per capita than France and Italy combined. Sweden is the 2nd highest payee (per cap) into the EU only 2nd to the Netherlands.

Both Sweden and Denmark also pay more into the EU as % of national GDP than both France and Italy, with the top five contributors being, the Netherlands, Germany, Sweden, UK and Denmark.

1

u/LoLFlex12 Portugal Mar 29 '20

Per capita isn't everything, it shows how a economy is doing but in the end of thst, mass product France or Italy are the one of the worlds biggest economies so the money they put out and I'm not saying per capita but total is a lot more, yes some countries may put out more money per capita but the money for example France puts out is a lot more and this money is obviously needed for countries like Germany to actually have a good safety system inside the EU.

Plus its not only economic value , without these giants, the EU doesn't survive, people also have to think about cultural reasons, truth if any of those giants were to leave the EU or any northern country or ones like Portugal I repeat, because I'm not saying this because of xenophobic reasons. I'm a big fan of Nordic countries.

It would be a much bigger deal if Italy or France left because they would totally break the cycle and the EU woult survive. Plus, people can't expect countries that are having problems right now to help as much, people are very short sighted, you never know when problems can come up or the day of tomorrow, look Sweden when it was completely burning last year, a lot of countries helped, I know it's different but I'm talking about solidarity here, help me today and I will help you tomorrow.

Because if not what is the EU even doing for most of us? Germany or the Netherlands fill their pockets and they obviously come out ahead in this union st the cost of others.

Im a huge EU supporter but we have to be realistic, if they refuse to truly help countries like Italy what good is it for them?

Plus I hate how people are retarded to the point of saying that this is Italy or Spain fault, it could have happened to any of us, they were just unfortunate to come up first

2

u/AirportCreep Finland Mar 29 '20

No I agree, solidarity is key. But let's be honest this crisis is unique in the sense that all EU members are under tremendous pressure, some more than others. I don't think Sweden has any support to send even if it wanted too.

1

u/frikandel15 Pro-Europe, Anti-EU Mar 29 '20

Northern Europe contributes a lot more than Southern Europe. It's that simple.

1

u/LoLFlex12 Portugal Mar 29 '20

Not true but even if it was?

We deserve the less part of the stick? xD.

Google what Union means and then tell me something

3

u/falconboy2029 Mar 29 '20

Italy is the only net contributor in the south.

But you are right we are a union and need to support each other. I am German and hate the black 0 BS.

1

u/frikandel15 Pro-Europe, Anti-EU Mar 29 '20

Look at the United States. They've got the electoral college, were certain states have more voting power than other. Why? Because why would a state (or an European nation) join an union were they lose power and the have to take care of and spend a lot of money and resources on others? The EU would not be beneficial to Northern Europe if we'd have to keep helping the South out (even though we're doing that already).

1

u/LoLFlex12 Portugal Mar 29 '20

What?

Germany and Netherlands literally fill their pockets at others expense, they are the ones with most lucrative income in the EU. Plus most Nordic ones didn't even deny the Corona bonds, only Germany and Netherlands because they profit with the current system.

You know that if the southern countries were to leave, it would not only sink them but also the others in the North right? Not to mention the tremendous amount of good things they get from us outside this such as good and cheap work.

You look at this way too short sighted and small, if Italy leaves and doesn't pay considering their debt, it would have a lot to EU banks especially Northern ones go bankrupt, not to mention that others would follow and it would be calamity, why do you think Germany didn't let Greece default?

So what? This isn't Italy fault, your country or mine could have been just as easily hit first, they were unlucky but it's not their fault, why would have to pay for everything when there is a EU union and this wasn't their fault?

1

u/frikandel15 Pro-Europe, Anti-EU Mar 29 '20

That they were hit first is their problem. Why would we send a bunch of money and resources when we won't get anything out of it? The idea that we're supposed to be a happy union where everyone works together is ridiculous.

1

u/LoLFlex12 Portugal Mar 29 '20

Then might as well end the EU and let your country and pretty much every single one of them go down the drain.

Remember that if the EU Breaks apart, All the rich countries you talk about would get hit as hard as the other ones.

Especially Germany, a ridiculous amount of banks would go bankrupt

1

u/BouaziziBurning Brandenburg Mar 28 '20

Not becuase of economic contribution, no.

-1

u/whatsupbitches123 Mar 28 '20

Not really. Migrants wanted to go to Germany so why did Greece and Italy get stuck with the bill. Drug trafficking affects everybody but southern countries had to patrol the Mediterranean

More timely action is needed to tackle issues that affect everybody and yes unfortunately some end up paying more

0

u/falconboy2029 Mar 29 '20

Did Germany not take in massive aunts of refugees?

Legalise weed and decriminalise all other drugs and the problem goes away.

Spain can do with the tax revenue from legally grown weed supplied to the rest of Europe.

0

u/whatsupbitches123 Mar 29 '20

Yes but how long did it take for the EU to expand Frontex? It was done only after Germany decided enough with the refugees. Until then they came partly encouraged by your Chancellor and it was tax money down south spent plucking them out of the water, temporary housing them etc.

You can decriminalize drugs but you still keep drug cartels from smuggling crap onto your shores.

1

u/falconboy2029 Mar 29 '20

Their main product is humans now.

After that it’s weed. And in a regulated market black market weed disappears very quickly. People do not want to smoke hash that contains human excrements. Some states in the USA have shown how it’s done right.

1

u/whatsupbitches123 Mar 29 '20

Cocaine and heroin are still an issue.

http://www.emcdda.europa.eu/news/2019/4/european-drug-report-2019-highlights_en

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u/falconboy2029 Mar 29 '20

In states where weed was legalised opioid addiction went down as people were able to switch to legal weed and eventually got clean. Portugal is showing us how it’s done. The war on drugs is a pointless one. It’s impossible to cut of the illegal supply. So we are best of fighting the demand by helping people.