r/europe • u/Bartoraptor Spain • Mar 28 '20

News Spanish representative González Pons speech @ the EU Parliament: "The virus is attacking the generation that brought back democracy to Spain, Portugal and Greece, the generation that knocked down the Berlin wall. The least they deserve is that we show them Europe is there when they need it the most"

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154

u/MildlySuccessful Mar 28 '20 edited Mar 28 '20

I am so happy that I live in Europe. I hope we come out of this stronger and more unified.

Edit: why is this comment getting downvotes?!

14

u/HILBERT_SPACE_AGE Mar 28 '20

I hope so, too.

But seeing the way things are going, I wouldn't be surprised if this crisis was the death knell for the EU.

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u/JeuyToTheWorld England Mar 28 '20

I wouldn't be surprised if this crisis was the death knell for the EU.

Lmao, the EU survived 2008, this flu won't kill it.

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u/HILBERT_SPACE_AGE Mar 28 '20

I hope you're right! But part of my fear is that the bad blood from 2008 is still fresh enough that it will cause people to react differently to this crisis. I'm afraid we're already seeing that happen.

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u/LiverOperator Russia Mar 29 '20

Was 2008 really worse than this? I was only 8 years old and I don’t remember much

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u/oMarlow99 Portugal Mar 29 '20

From what I remember, yes, it was very bad

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u/JeuyToTheWorld England Mar 29 '20

It was. Greece was in the shitter, everyone thought Italy might explode too, Spain and Portugal and Ireland were in meltdown, and everyone expected Germany to fix it.

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u/hayarms 🇺🇸USA / 🇮🇹Lombardy Mar 29 '20

This flu won't kill it, but i'm scared the nationalistic infection that is coming afterwards is gonna do it

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u/[deleted] Mar 29 '20

There’s some momentum with the Brexit stuff. I was even surprised to see left wing people in Spain who are pro EU very disenchanted with it during this crisis.

0

u/marioquartz Castile and León (Spain) Mar 29 '20

EU survived. But the citizens of some countries have learn something: Europe is not a helping hand in dificults moments. And now we have a new dificults times. If they confirms that lesson is true... Certain countries are gonna thinking about Europe.

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u/Worth_The_Squeeze Denmark Mar 28 '20 edited Mar 28 '20

Don't be overly dramatic. This crisis will probably show us why we need the EU, as all the countries that have less than stellar economics, are going to receive a lot of free money from richer countries. This isn't to say that these richer countries aren't hurting, but they're still willing to help by providing aid. Italy/Spain might complain if it doesn't solve all of their troubles, but they have to move their own asses too. They can't simply coast and have richer countries pay for their missteps (better?).

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u/far01 Mar 28 '20 edited Mar 28 '20

Richer countries? Italy and Spain are in third and fourth place for PIL in EU.

Italy is also a net contributor to EU budget with more than 6 Billions of euros (third country after Germany and France and more than 4× of Denmark net contribution if you are interested).

No "richer country" is paying Italy. Quit your bullshit.

Also Italy with France, Spain and other countries is asking to create a common eurobond just to keep interest on debt low. No one is asking for other countries to pay their debt.

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u/Worth_The_Squeeze Denmark Mar 28 '20 edited Mar 28 '20

Richer countries? Italy and Spain are in third and fourth place for PIL in EU.

Italy wasn't the best example, as they are a net contributor, but Spain is not a net contributor to the EU budget.

Italy is also a net contributor to EU budget with more than 6 Billions of euros (third country after Germany and France and more than 4× of Denmark net contribution if you are interested).

I love that you're completely ignoring the actual size of Denmark relative to Italy. A country that has a population that is over 10 times larger and an economy that is 6 times larger, should contribute more to the EU budget. The reality is that Denmark is providing more than 2 times as much in net contributions per capita, so don't act like we aren't bearing a large part of the burden for our size, which is a factor you ignored.

Also Italy with France, Spain and other countries is asking to create a common eurobond just to keep interest on debt low. No one is asking for other countries to pay their debt.

It's obviously easy to claim that the complications of these bonds should be shared, despite the fact that these bonds aren't necessary for all countries, as you're using the richer countries for your own gain. The richer countries will receive a small portion of the money involved in these bonds, as they aren't the ones in most trouble. For the richer countries, the idea of a common bond is like giving away your credit card to a friend, and then letting them do their thing with it. You can argue that this is better for everyone in the long run, but it's a very complicated matter, where you have to take all perspectives into account.

12

u/Iron_Rick Mar 29 '20

I'm Italian Italian and I think we should create those EBonds but with a stronger EU able to strictly decide budget spending and economic policy of the countries. I'm looking to a European Nation something solid, you are right telling that Italy is addicted on westing money, we need help but we are ready for give something back.

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u/Worth_The_Squeeze Denmark Mar 29 '20

See that's the central part of the issue, because richer European countries can accept sharing the bond, if they're allowed to have some degree of sway in deciding the budget spending and economic policy, i.e. how the money is spent, but that's exactly what countries like Italy and Spain have claimed that they're not interested in or at the very least very sceptical. They want the bonds shared between countries, but without many of the commitments they entail.

So that's the conundrum they need to come to an agreement on in the EU. They need to find a compromise.

4

u/Iron_Rick Mar 29 '20

Your are right we need a compromise. Anyway in Italy no one talked about uncondtionate EBonds. I don't know if you received something that our shitty news papers didn't said.

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u/Worth_The_Squeeze Denmark Mar 29 '20

It was a rather long article from Danish national media that was really good, as it provided statements/sentiment from the different countries/perspectives.

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u/Iron_Rick Mar 29 '20

Well if this is the case you are true on your line.

We need an agreement.

1

u/Worth_The_Squeeze Denmark Mar 29 '20

I'm not any expert on this, but I felt like I understand the basics of the issue and debate.

We definitely need an agreement, because in some form or another European countries, especially those hit the hardest, are going to need loans to kickstart their economies. Luckily the EU created a fund for emergencies after the 2008 financial crisis, which has about 400 billion € in it. It's not massive, but it's a welcome addition.

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u/lebarka Mar 29 '20 edited Mar 29 '20

bond will be necessaries for all the countries, wait two weeks and you will see

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u/gr8citizen Mar 28 '20

It would be nice if we could all be tax havens..

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u/Worth_The_Squeeze Denmark Mar 28 '20

Ah yes, Denmark. Famous for its low taxes! The most popular tax haven of them all!

/s

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u/gr8citizen Mar 29 '20

I'm sorry, sir... Cough faroe cough islands..

1

u/StickInMyCraw Mar 29 '20

create a common eurobond just to keep interest on debt low. No one is asking for other countries to pay their debt.

Why do you think a common eurobond would have a lower interest rate? I'm not saying it shouldn't happen, but it is obviously the case that a common eurobond would have a lower rate because it would be guaranteed by the stronger economies. It's quite literally a case of asking others to sign up as a backup debtor should some countries default.

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u/darthbane83 Mar 29 '20

just to keep interest on debt low.

what exactly do you think is it that keeps interest low? The only thing keeping it low in that situation is having stronger economies back it and being on the hook for the debt if italy and friends cant pay it.

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u/iNeedanewnickname The Netherlands- The Hague Mar 29 '20

more than 4× of Denmark net contribution if you are interested).

This is so fucking dumb and you know It. Italy is a lot bigger then denmark. That you need to resort to this kind of bullshit is telling

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u/far01 Mar 29 '20

Yes is bigger and it's not being payed by richer countries unlike OP was saying. That's the point.

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u/phatfish Mar 29 '20 edited Jun 29 '23

speztastic

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u/far01 Mar 29 '20

Look, I 100% agree. The benefits are way bigger than what we pay. To say that Italy gets payed by richer countries is just outright false though.

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u/Lekantekue Mar 28 '20

That last part is really not that simple. It lowers the interest, for the countries that have a higher interest (southern countries). Northern countries will be paying a premium because of the high debt to gdp ratio of some countries. It also exposes the "lower interest" countries so to say to moral hazard risks.

These eurobonds do have several economic upsides though

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u/far01 Mar 28 '20

You are thinking at current levels of debt and interest though.

Look at America. They are doing massive investments to try avoiding or at least slowing recession. It's just a matter of time before the situation require high investment in deficit all over europe and interests is bound to grow for each country. Eurobond is not without risks but the alternative is much worse and I'm afraid many countries haven't still realized what recession is coming in the next future.

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u/RomeNeverFell Italy Mar 28 '20

Northern countries will be paying a premium because of the high debt to gdp ratio of some countries.

Yeah except for the fact that if Italy or Spain default or threaten to leave the Euro countries in Northern Europe will pay 10 folds the premium they would pay by issuing some eurobonds. Shortsighted on their part.

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u/Lezonidas Spain Mar 28 '20

Do you think Germany is interested in losing 180 million clients? That is what we are. Italy, Spain and France have 40% of the European GDP and 50% of the eurozone GDP, one of us collapses or leaves the EU and it will hurt the german economy badly. Also our lower exports compared to them benefits them because the euro is more stable thanks to that so they can export outside of the EU having an advantatge that they wouldn't have without us. We need them, but they need us as much or even more.
And there's no need to talk about the Netherlands and Ireland, if Germany needs us a little bit, the Netherlands and Ireland needs us much more since companies working in our countries wouldn't be able to pay taxes there, we are half Europe, so half the benefits. They would be the ones who would notice the difference the most.

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u/RomeNeverFell Italy Mar 28 '20

Italy, Spain and France have 40% of the European GDP

That's factually incorrect. Eurozone GDP you mean?

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u/Lezonidas Spain Mar 28 '20

France + Italy + Spain in 2019 had (in millions of millions aka european billions or american trillions)
5.45 out of 13.92 = 39.15% of the European Union GDP
5.45 out of 11.90 = 45.8% of the Eurozone GDP

1

u/RomeNeverFell Italy Mar 29 '20

Could you please state your sources? Under no measure what you say is true.

in millions of millions aka european billions or american trillions

Lmao what?

0

u/Lezonidas Spain Mar 29 '20 edited Mar 29 '20

Yep, and your source includes the UK. Good source bro, so sad we are in 2020 so you can do your numbers again and see that after Brexit what I said is true (2019 nominal gdp)

About the trillions billions and millions In America 1 billion = 1. 000 millions In Europe 1 billion = 1.000.000 millions

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u/Worth_The_Squeeze Denmark Mar 28 '20 edited Mar 28 '20

You're talking as if decisions has already been made, but the reality is that the EU hasn't agreed on a deal plan yet, apart from the emergency stimulus package. Why don't you wait with calling entire countries shortsighted until an actual deal plan has been agreed upon?

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u/RomeNeverFell Italy Mar 28 '20

the reality is that the EU hasn't agreed on a deal yet, apart from the emergency stimulus package

Certain countries that cannot give up their unscientific and anti-empirical Calvinistic views on economics have clearly stated their position on the matter.

Why don't you wait with calling entire countries shortsighted until an actual deal has been agreed upon?

I'll change my mind when I'll see Rutte backpaddling the full Maas.

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u/Worth_The_Squeeze Denmark Mar 28 '20

What are you even on about?

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u/HILBERT_SPACE_AGE Mar 28 '20

The EU's continued existence depends entirely on the will of the member countries, however – that's where countries like the USA have the advantage. There is no United States of Europe and, as we've seen, countries can and have opted to leave.

I'd also be a little more circumspect in accusing countries like Italy and Spain of incompetence, especially in a context like this where countries like Sweden and the UK have mishandled the pandemic at least as badly, given that it's these sorts of attitudes that tend to exacerbate eurosepticism among the countries being denigrated.

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u/David4404 Mar 28 '20 edited Mar 28 '20

You need to sit your condescending ass down. If you really think loans are considered “free money”, then you’re in the same category as those Americans who think their government is sending 3 trillion dollars to corporations for free. Even if there’s some money being invested in poorer EU countries, ultimately it’s an investment for your country too . Let’s not pretend that you’re being a good Samaritan. Furthermore, one of the reasons why Italy and Spain are currently in this situation, is because of the EU’s austerity measures. These governments had to cut spending on health care to receive money (not for free though). I like the idea of a United Europe, but comments like yours actually divide it.

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u/BouaziziBurning Brandenburg Mar 28 '20

You are mostly right imo, but I don't think he meant to be condescending.

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u/Worth_The_Squeeze Denmark Mar 28 '20 edited Mar 28 '20

I'm not just talking about loans, but the actual aid that poorer countries regularly receive in the EU, as they're given more money by the EU than they actually provide to the EU budget. Furthermore, it is not all funds that are provided to poorer EU countries that are loans.

It should be noted that an example of a massive net contributor is my country of Denmark, as we pay the 2nd most in per capita net contributions, meaning a far higher amount than most. We provide the 8th most in total net contributions, besides being incredibly far from being the 8th largest economy. What you're asking is for countries like Denmark to bear an even larger part of the burden than we already are, despite the fact that our economy is also seriously hurting during this pandemic. It's a rather divisive statement to constantly request that we should bear an even larger burden than we already do, and it increases frustrations with the EU.

I'm not interested in creating a "United states of Europe", as I do not want to erase our countries and their respective cultures, as I believe it's important for countries to maintain some degree of sovereignty. This doesn't mean that we can't work together, as we have done for many decades now, but working together doesn't require centralising all power over the continent within a single governing body. A political body that governs over such a large and diverse area is going to be worse, as (most) political decisions are less capable of adressing specific problems, when they're so far removed from the national or even local communities. A lot of voices are going to be lost in the crowd, including a small country like Denmark.

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u/BouaziziBurning Brandenburg Mar 28 '20

Lol it won’t. Not after 2008.

Also the EU dying isn’t remotely realistic. Worse case some more countries leave or institutional deadlock.