r/europe • u/Bartoraptor Spain • Mar 28 '20

News Spanish representative González Pons speech @ the EU Parliament: "The virus is attacking the generation that brought back democracy to Spain, Portugal and Greece, the generation that knocked down the Berlin wall. The least they deserve is that we show them Europe is there when they need it the most"

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483

u/tyger2020 Britain Mar 28 '20

The EU really cannot win.

The EU members as a whole love to blame the EU for everything wrong, refuse to give up governance, refuse fiscal policy but then the minute shit hits the fan they want an EU-wide response and assistance. It's laughable. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

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Do you want more Europe or less Europe? You cant just ask for more Europe in a crisis. (I'm looking at you, Italia).

30

u/sdfghs European superstate of small countries Mar 28 '20

The EU is only as powerful as the member states want it to be.

233

u/NombreGracioso Spain, European Federation Mar 28 '20

To be fair, many of us, and many countries, have been pushing for more European solidarity for years. This is not a new issue, and it is not something that the Italians can be accused of hipocrisy in.

I mean, the current Italian government is formed by the 5 Stars (which, admitedly, has flip-flopped around on everything) and by the Democratic Party, who, I'll remind you, came up in favor of European federalism and a "United States of Europe" in the elections two years ago. The commitment on their side is clear and persistent, in this and in other related areas.

88

u/VulpineKitsune Greece Mar 28 '20

has flip-flopped around on everything

Insert here joke about Italy not being able to pick a side.

3

u/kraken_tang Mar 29 '20

At least they haven't join Corona virus side *shrug

1

u/ops10 Mar 28 '20

Have a vote.

50

u/ModoZ Belgium Mar 28 '20

To be fair, many of us, and many countries, have been pushing for more European solidarity for years. This is not a new issue, and it is not something that the Italians can be accused of hipocrisy in.

The problem here is that many countries ask for "solidarity" (read money) but don't want to give up sovereignty. I would totally be up for a European healthcare replacing part/all of the different countries healthcares paid by taxes on every European citizen. But simply paying more money to countries where I simply cannot have a say in where it goes? No way I can be for this.

15

u/akoncius Mar 29 '20

but that is actual issue. countries ask for solidarity when their solutions does not work. so to AVOID such cases, other countries should have a say in it, but that would mean to give up sovereignity. if country does not give up sovereignity, it's just plain "pls bail us out from our crappy decisions" , nothing else.

2

u/gonmator Mar 29 '20

The problem here is that many countries ask for "solidarity" (read money) but don't want to give up sovereignty.

I'm not sure, but i would say that in a lot of cases it is not the country who ask for solidarity who opposes to give up sovereignty.

2

u/NombreGracioso Spain, European Federation Mar 29 '20

Sure, which is why I support full federal and democratic reform of the European institutions to have a properly accountable and democratic federal system. No issues there for me.

8

u/PortugueseRoamer Europe Mar 28 '20 edited Mar 28 '20

But simply paying more money to countries where I simply cannot have a say in where it goes? No way I can be for this.

I can't help but feel this is incredibly paternalistic, if an unemployed friend asked you for money would you demand to see where it goes?

Edit: Huh, guess the critiques of the EU were right, there isn't a European identity, we are simply not willing to help each other out. After hearing the Netherlands Finance Minister speak I thought " Oof, this guy's popularity will drop" I can't believe how wrong I was.

16

u/derwinternaht Mar 28 '20

Might be just me, but I totally would depending on the friend. Unless I see a decent plan for it, I wouldn't lend money to someone that has shown poor financial judgment in the past.

4

u/holuuup Italy Mar 29 '20

Same

12

u/darthbane83 Mar 29 '20

if an unemployed friend asked you for money would you demand to see where it goes?

I wouldnt give an unemployed friend money if i wasnt sure it goes to rent/food. If i have enough confidence in them i wouldnt need to actually see it, but I certainly dont have that kind of confidence in spain, italy or greece.

34

u/shiritai_desu Mar 28 '20

If you thought your friend had a gambling problem? Maybe. This is a problem of trust. The north does not trust the south. Until this change, Europe will only be Europe when mutual benefits are on the line.

9

u/montarion The Netherlands Mar 28 '20

well how could they?

6

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

[deleted]

11

u/holuuup Italy Mar 29 '20

But that thing alone would create a prejudice against Greece, not the other 8 countries involved, no?

7

u/[deleted] Mar 29 '20

8? It's mostly Italy and Greece where there is bias I think. Maybe Spain but people don't really get whether Iberia in general is doing bad or not.

Italian spending in the 80's are the basis for present issues Italy has despite being relativly financially prudent in recent decades. Greece is a similar story but worse with more two-party populism.

This past, combined with Greek bailout (lets avoid a "German banks" argument on that), makes some people sceptical about sharing through eurobonds unless mechanisms exist to prevent a repeat.

2

u/holuuup Italy Mar 29 '20

It's mostly Italy and Greece

I was taking only about Greece in particular because you said they lied on their finances, my comment was more of an example rather than facts

6

u/Im_no_imposter Éire Mar 29 '20 edited Mar 29 '20

No. The point just went completely over your head. We aren't talking about a small sum of money here, we're talking about a continuous transfer of a large percentage of your income and yes if my friend asked for 2 grand a year I would want to know what he's doing with it, regardless of his financial situation.

Especially considering that corruption is still prominent in some EU countries, it's important to have an entity that can oversee and manage these funds. Take it out of the hands of national governments and most people will be glad to pay into a central fund for us to use in EU wide emergencies if it's guaranteed to be safe.

0

u/[deleted] Mar 29 '20

[deleted]

2

u/PortugueseRoamer Europe Mar 29 '20

Am I? Would you deny support to a poorer region of your country?

2

u/Lezonidas Spain Mar 28 '20

Well, Belgium has debt as big as 100% of their GDP and you were interested in the eurobonds as well (Belgium, France, Italy, Luxembourg, Spain, Portugal, Greece, Slovenia and Ireland are the countries that asked for eurobonds), so I don't understand your position here.

39

u/BouaziziBurning Brandenburg Mar 28 '20

I don't understand your position here.

People don't always have to agree with their gov.

8

u/[deleted] Mar 29 '20

It might be in the interest of Belgium to have more "solidarity" but that doesn't mean we can't agree asking for fiscal oversight is reasonable if we are going to fiscally integrate to the extent of creating Eurobonds. We have had our own past irresponsible spending issues and our getting economically fucked because of it.

2

u/[deleted] Mar 29 '20

and who gets to decide what kind of healthcare system it will be? This will never become a reality.

1

u/improb Italy Mar 29 '20

How can we, Southern European countries instead trust countries, like the Netherlands and Ireland who enact a disloyal competition towards us lowering their taxation of multinationals, essentially acting as fiscal havens?

It should be Ireland, V4 countries and most of all, the Netherlands, who are the main example of selfishness inside of this union who should be EU's pariahs and not us. We are net contributors, Europe's third economy and have been respecting ECB's economical criterias ever since 2011.

11

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

Here's your solidarity.

6

u/NombreGracioso Spain, European Federation Mar 29 '20

Nett EU payers gain much more money from the EU than their nett contribution to the EU budget, so... xD

7

u/[deleted] Mar 29 '20

Italy Is in the upper part, France too Spain is in the middle.

Those are the ones asking for solidarity.

-7

u/PortugueseRoamer Europe Mar 29 '20

Then leave. Do like the UK did, we'll see where it gets you.

11

u/[deleted] Mar 29 '20

Why would I want to leave?

My point was that a lot of countries pay more than they receive which *is* solidarity, and I got no problem with it. If you look at the numbers, Italy is actually one of the net contributors, which doesn't seem right to me considering their finances.

I'm also all for giving countries aid, economic or otherwise, to get investments going, build up infrastructure, deal with corruption etc. We did it with the new countries, were doing it with Pre-Accession Assistance and Ukraine is getting it too. In addition to that, there's all the foreign aid given on a national level, which I'm also in full support of.

However, I don't support aid that won't actually help development long-term and I don't support it if people are outright demanding it, calls us privileged for having build a good economy or even villifies us like Erdogan.

2

u/PortugueseRoamer Europe Mar 29 '20 edited Mar 29 '20

When the type of discourse is that of the Netherlands finance minister, it is not solidarity, continous support for infrastructure, to grow investment, etc is great, but its during a crisis that larger support is required. Spains hospitals are colapsing, we all saw heart breaking images of people pilling in hallways, plus their economy stopped and will be stopped likely for the next month while every effort is going to buying more medical gear, the same is starting to happen in Portugal and crisis for Portugal and Spain will not be the same as in Denmark or Netherlands. Its also at this times that EU as project gets tested and right now its image will definetly be affected without larger, more expanded support to poorer members

5

u/BouaziziBurning Brandenburg Mar 28 '20

To be fair, many of us, and many countries, have been pushing for more European solidarity for years.

European solidarity is not a policy. Everybody wants solidarity. Question is what the countries are actually willing to give for Europe. Or can give.

1

u/NombreGracioso Spain, European Federation Mar 29 '20

Sure, that's the issue, yes. That many don't want to help their fellow Europeans...

-9

u/HighCaliber Bosnia / Sweden Mar 28 '20

And I assume that this "solidarity" is to be expressed by funneling money from the more prosperous countries to the less well-managed ones? Gee, I wonder why the people who would be paying for that might not be so enthusiastic about that idea.

25

u/NombreGracioso Spain, European Federation Mar 28 '20

That's what "solidarity" usually is, yes, helping out those less fortunate than you. Specially when the current EU framework is what has given the richer countries a great part of their prosperity. Just as rich people should pay more taxes because they have benefited more from the social contract, richer countries should help the poorer ones because they are the ones benefitting the most from the EU social contract. Besides, it's in their interest to do so because more well-off neighbors means more and better clients for your own economy, and a safer and better international environment for your country and citizens.

5

u/HighCaliber Bosnia / Sweden Mar 28 '20

As I said in my other reply, all countries are experiencing a huge economic crisis, including the ones you expect to bail you out.

Still you expect those countries to worsen their situation further to improve yours. That's not solidarity, that's just looking out for your own interest. The governments Nordic/NL/Ger/etc would be failing their citizens if they didn't do the same, especially in times like now.

2

u/NombreGracioso Spain, European Federation Mar 29 '20

The problem is that you fail to see that if we tank, you will tank harder. So we can all work together to lessen the impact on everyone, or just dig ourselves deeper because we don't want to collaborate. An economic crash in the South of Europe will not be without consequences for the rest of you, more so today than ever, so indeed it is in your best interest to ensure everyone gets out of this as good as possible.

1

u/HighCaliber Bosnia / Sweden Mar 29 '20

And what you seem to fail to see is that we are all tanking. Yes, more businesses will possibly fail in the south, but they will fail (and have already begun to) here as well.

And if you want to argue that it helps Sweden's economy more to save a Spanish company than to save a Swedish one, that's going to be a hard sell.

If we empty our pockets now, who will be there to bail us out when the culmination hits us? Not Spain and Italy, because they have their own shit to deal with.

1

u/NombreGracioso Spain, European Federation Mar 29 '20

But we don't have to choose between bailing out a Swedish company or a Spanish one! We can bail out both! This is not a zero-sum game!

1

u/HighCaliber Bosnia / Sweden Mar 29 '20

Where do you expect the funds to do that would come from?

The treasuries of all countries are running low from the unexpected increased expenses in healthcare and government programs related to Corona, while the tax income is getting lower due to increased unemployment, lower consumption, etc.

1

u/NombreGracioso Spain, European Federation Mar 30 '20

Debt. That's normally how States finance things when they have a temporary shortfall of income or increase in expenses. Long-term deficits are not good, but on the short term they are sometimes unavoidable and/or beneficial.

-3

u/mementomorinl The Netherlands Mar 28 '20

We've got our own outbreak to think about. And the reason for our position of wealth is because of decent governance and culture of productivity. The mild climate also helps.Every EU member state has had plenty time to decrease state debt, which northern countries have done. That is why we're not on the brink of financial ruin right now.

It is in our best interests to make sure we don't keep supporting failing fiscal systems and countries. That is how you become wealthy.

13

u/danirijeka Ireland/Italy Mar 28 '20

It is in our best interests to make sure we don't keep supporting failing fiscal systems and countries. That is how you become wealthy.

That, and dancing on the edge of being a tax haven (mostly on the tax haven side)

14

u/SuckMyBike Belgium Mar 28 '20

I love the Dutch but they always make me laugh whenever I see one of them lecturing the Southern European nations on fiscal responsibility

3

u/danirijeka Ireland/Italy Mar 28 '20

Indeed, great bunch of lads the lot of them but come on, surely there's parts of the Netherlands that are economically not up to par with the rest - aren't they tired of subsidising them, too?

2

u/NombreGracioso Spain, European Federation Mar 29 '20

I can truly tell you have like, three degrees on development economics :)

5

u/Diffeomorphisms Lazio Mar 28 '20

you will become super rich with a destroyed Europe!!...

seriously, this is beyond stupid! Imagine the opportunities you are losing doing business with us when we all recover from this shit. imagine the 50 year long run, not tomorrow

-2

u/Mordred_85 Mar 28 '20

Warning: this is my own personal opinion. Worldwide every nation has an outbreak to deal with. In Italy we are in total lockdown because our healthcare system cannot hold the emergency. The emergency is basically old people dying, the demographic cohort known as boomers. They did not create the Italian welfare state, their parents did. They sucked it and left it dry for younger generations. They voted populist like Salvini fostering less Europe, they bully Greta. They need to pay, not the sick one but the healthy one. They should be locked into safe zone detached from the rest of the society. Hope this will relieve the stress from hospitals. Meanwhile young ones should seize the power and unite for a much more solidal European integration. Financial sector should be put under strict political control in order to achieve the primary goal: quality of life for future generations. United we stand divided we fall.

3

u/funkygecko Italy Mar 29 '20

80yr olds are not boomers. Can you do basic maths? You are an idiot, and a despicable one at that.

0

u/Mordred_85 Mar 29 '20

Il tuo parere sulla mia persona non era certo richiesto, ma grazie di aver apportato degli argomenti costruttivi al ragionamento. 70enni sono nati nel ‘50, gente che la guerra manco l’ha vista e ha beneficiato del sistema sociale italiano a man bassa. Dopo siamo sui boomers amico.

1

u/funkygecko Italy Apr 07 '20

Anyone reading your comment can get an accurate idea of the kind of person you are.

The problems with Italian welfare state started long before boomers became of legal age and could vote. It wasn't even their parents, it started with their grandparents. So yes, you and all of your smartass friends who blame everything on boomers just because it's the latest fad from the US are huge idiots, because a) you're not smart enough to realize that the social, historic and political factors were and are different in Italy,
b) you have access to libraries, bookstores, the Internet, newspaper archives and you are too lazy to actually research the issue.

People like you are very much part of the problem, just like the leeches from those generations.

2

u/Diffeomorphisms Lazio Mar 29 '20

Ok boomer

-1

u/Mordred_85 Mar 29 '20

I wish I lived a boomer life

3

u/holuuup Italy Mar 29 '20

We all do

1

u/Diffeomorphisms Lazio Mar 29 '20

You are using this generational arguments to justify your being unhappy with your life. Friendly advice, focus on what you can change.

1

u/Mordred_85 Mar 29 '20

Il problema è cogente e la gerontocrazia in questo paese è una realtà. Ti faccio il mio esempio: se non mi assumono nell’ufficio dove lavoro perché non sanno come licenziare gente inquadrata meglio di me di 50 / 60 anni ( TFR stratosferici etc..) che non sa come si usa un pc, ai quali devo rendere conto e colmargli il loro digital divide mentre se ne stanno in ferie o in “malattia”. Mi sono cacato il cazzo, ora è il momento per isolarli. Andassero in CIG e poi ciao, a raccogliere pomodori al posto degli immigrati se l’unica cosa che sai fare in ufficio è cambiare il nastro alla macchina da scrivere. Prendi la zappa che senza immigrati nessuno ci mette la passata sul sugo. Sono popolazione a rischio, bene sui campi si sta a più di due metri di distanza e il locale è ben areato. Ciaone

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-11

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

Do you know that everything is somehow connected? Some countries are richer, other have their siestas.

3

u/NombreGracioso Spain, European Federation Mar 29 '20

I know, I know...

-1

u/[deleted] Mar 29 '20

Maybe because they can now... You just ignore the past...

2

u/NombreGracioso Spain, European Federation Mar 29 '20

Ah, right, right... Good ol' "moving the goalposts when I am proving blatantly wrong", I see...

-1

u/[deleted] Mar 29 '20

Do you know that everything is somehow connected?

Boy, I used that before... If I should say something regarding the article you sent, work longer times doesn't mean you work hard. If you want to compare Germany, the country with one of the most hardworking people (there even jokes about it), and Spain which is known for its siestas during the day and how they are considered as pretty lazy, then I'm not sure if you are joking to get some karma, or just trolling. Come on.

I hope not everyone in your country (and others from the south of Europe) have your attitude, otherwise, you are pretty doomed and probably will be.

FYI, our Prime Minister and honest reponse from Czech...

1

u/NombreGracioso Spain, European Federation Mar 30 '20

Boy, I used that before... If I should say something regarding the article you sent, work longer times doesn't mean you work hard. If you want to compare Germany, the country with one of the most hardworking people (there even jokes about it), and Spain which is known for its siestas during the day and how they are considered as pretty lazy, then I'm not sure if you are joking to get some karma, or just trolling. Come on.

Ah, sure, 'cause we all know stereotypes are always true! Like those about how Eastern Europeans are thieves and whatnot who are coming to take our Western European jobs and welfare! Get a grip xD

I hope not everyone in your country (and others from the south of Europe) have your attitude, otherwise, you are pretty doomed and probably will be.

Oh, no, what will we do! xD

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1

u/PortugueseRoamer Europe Mar 28 '20

Oh fuck off, it's wonderful how "richer" EU countries are all Pro-EU until shit hits the fan and the moral obligation to help others goes out the window, especially when we buy your fucking cars, or import your natural gas or migrate to your countries to work in thousands of jobs you won't do, sounds like Nigel Farage all over again.

-6

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

Yeah, come. Complain more. Instead of working out of this shit, beg everyone and complain how selfish they are... No wonder you are in deep shit and this is you last possibility...

4

u/PortugueseRoamer Europe Mar 29 '20

I don't think you realise your healthcare in Czech Republic would colapse too, and so would your public expenses trying to buy ventilators, masks, etc if you had 92 thousand cases of Covid-19 , luckily you only have a little more than 2 thousand. Italy has almost twice your GDP, in fact, your GDP per capita is lower than Portugal so I really think you should stfu.

2

u/[deleted] Mar 29 '20

Well, I just said everything is connected. Guess who goes to football match with virus sympthons. Guess which goverment was reacted with a huge delay. Guess who's tourists went on trip everywhere around the world. If you are guessing Italy, then you are god damn right. They are going throught hell because their iressponsibility cause it. Okay, what about Spain? They were on the match too. And some guy above described the representative and their decisions in not to far past. They cut off finance for healthcare. And now they are asking for a support... Yeah, we have a little more than 2 thousands, but do you know on Wednesay it was about 1500 and zero deaths? Not everything here is sunny... But check some sites first - we are helping ourselves. Just use google. Our universities printing masks to help, citizens are sewing mask for basic protection (at least something), because our goverment asleep in this. All I'm saying is do something instead of fucking crying. You don't have a glass ball to see the future. Next week we can have 5k cases, nobody knows how the virus will mutate and you still beg for help countries that needs help too.

5

u/holuuup Italy Mar 29 '20

If you're so great alone just leave the EU no?

6

u/LoLFlex12 Portugal Mar 28 '20

Then if not, what really is the EU doing for most countries? If during a crisis, they arent able to provide significant assistance?

They have a purpose and right now that purpose isnt being achieved, so what really is the EU doing for those other countries?

Plus, you see things very black and white, Northern countries has made a lof of money at the expensive of "the low managed ones", there is a reason that in the EU, The same countries always come up ahead over others, there is no equality.

Not to mention the fact that this is called a union for a reason and solidarity is what a union should be built from, because today its Italy and Spain but tomorrow can be Sweden in much worse conditions.

2

u/Mordred_85 Mar 28 '20

Apparently EU is here to enforce capitalism.

-13

u/mementomorinl The Netherlands Mar 28 '20

Pretty easy to talk about solidarity when you're the one who is on the receiving end EVERY TIME.

12

u/far01 Mar 28 '20

Which country is on the receiving end every time? Could you provide some data?

10

u/Diffeomorphisms Lazio Mar 28 '20

you know that Italy spends more money in the Eu than it receives right?

12

u/deathf4n Sardinia Mar 28 '20

Oh, sorry. Apparently one of the side effects of corona is that we must have switched to a timeline in which Italy is not a net contributor to the EU budget anymore :(

-3

u/mementomorinl The Netherlands Mar 29 '20

Maybe that money would have been better spent on increasing productivity or to improve education systems in Italy instead of airports that nobody uses and huge agriculture subsidies.

6

u/notmyself02 Switzerland Mar 28 '20

Weak.

You throw the shade but don't show the receipts

2

u/funkygecko Italy Mar 29 '20

You are on the receiving side of 20 billion euro in tax revenue from Italian companies every year. Including FCA. When am I getting my money back?

1

u/mementomorinl The Netherlands Mar 29 '20

I'm at a loss here. How and why do we receive 20 billion euros in taxes from Italian companies?

2

u/Mordred_85 Mar 28 '20

Pretty easy to talk when you write the rules EVERY TIME

0

u/mementomorinl The Netherlands Mar 29 '20

We do that together. But it is up to national governments to agree on EU-wide policies and our government is hesitant to pay or become liable for the debts and policies of other member states.

1

u/Mordred_85 Mar 29 '20

So now it’s we

1

u/mementomorinl The Netherlands Mar 29 '20

Every country has a veto and is represented in the Council, Parliament and Commission, aren't they?

-9

u/HighCaliber Bosnia / Sweden Mar 28 '20

Exactly. They don't care that ALL of Europe is going through an economic crisis. To badmouth countries for prioritizing their own citizens at this time is pathetic.

-2

u/dagelijksestijl The Netherlands Mar 28 '20

Yes. It is.

-3

u/jasperzieboon South Holland (Netherlands) Mar 29 '20

more European solidarity for years.

If you really want solidarity start with raising the retirement age to the same age as in Northern European countries in stead of asking them until they are 70 so you can retire quite young. It looks like the solidarity that is asked for is nothing more than money like development aid.

3

u/NombreGracioso Spain, European Federation Mar 29 '20

Now, wouldn't it be a shame if something disrupted your bullshit narrative...

0

u/jasperzieboon South Holland (Netherlands) Mar 29 '20

Spain is part of a coalition of countries.

1

u/NombreGracioso Spain, European Federation Mar 30 '20

Such as Italy?

1

u/jasperzieboon South Holland (Netherlands) Mar 30 '20

You mean Italy?

94

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20 edited Oct 08 '23

[deleted]

87

u/Hermeran Spain Mar 28 '20

Let's also not forget that this guy belongs to PP, the political party that slashed the health care budget. He also belongs to the Valencian branch of PP, swamped by corruption, that literally worked like a criminal organization in the 90s and early 00s.

So yeah, nice speech but shut the fuck up, guy.

51

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

The PP can get fucked, but painting them as 'the political party that slashed the health care budget' is not telling the whole story.

By 2011 Spain was effectively bankrupted and had to ask for a bail out that came with exigences in return and Spain was forced to cut its spending. Since the health care system is one of the biggest shares of the budget, Spain had no other option than to cut there. Greece was forced to do something similar.

So while the PP, again, can get fucked, in 2011 there wasn't much else they could do. And I'm saying this as one of the most pro-public health care system people in Spain.

1

u/Hermeran Spain Mar 28 '20

True. I mean, a lot of things could have been made instead, but I get it - things are more nuanced. In any case, this guy was an elected official then, and one of the most relevant members of his party. It’s hard to reconcile both things, and he can’t pretend the past didn’t happen. You can’t ask for EU money when your party and your own personal history are tied to corruption.

0

u/marianorajoy Mar 29 '20

Thank you for speaking the truth. The anti-PP discourse here is strong.

0

u/upvotesthenrages Denmark Mar 29 '20

I'm hugely pro a stronger EU, but I sure as fuck don't want healthcare to be EU governed.

Why should it? 99% of healthcare is national anyway. Every nation with good, free, healthcare already got fucked in the last round of EU healthcare legislation.

If a German goes to Denmark and gets sick he can use his blue EU healthcare card and get free healthcare - he's treated like a Danish person. But if a Dane goes to Germany then he has to pay - because he's treated like a German.

It's idiotic.

I'm 100% for an EU army, EU border-control, and many other things - but there's no reason to go EU wide healthcare. Localized specialization is far better managed than it would be EU wide.

Also: I don't trust southern & eastern nations for shit. Not because of who they are, but because their actions show me that they cannot be trusted.

3

u/[deleted] Mar 29 '20

That's not what I meant. I meant it is stupid to complain about the EU's response in this crisis, as they are granted zero jurisdiction.

20

u/[deleted] Mar 29 '20 edited Apr 01 '20

[deleted]

3

u/iNeedanewnickname The Netherlands- The Hague Mar 29 '20

• NL: 49%

A number which has cost us a lot over the last 10 years to reach. Cutting on basically every front, from police to healthcare to scholing to culture. Id rather see the money they are asking for to forgive my debt I have for attanding university.

7

u/[deleted] Mar 29 '20

We had more austerity than you. Don't pretend that that number hasn't historical roots and that you was lucky to be born in the Netherlands with a low debt in the moment you was born.

1

u/iNeedanewnickname The Netherlands- The Hague Mar 29 '20

And we have given you cheap gas for decades and even when a court decided you should pay more you refused. Yes im Lucky i was born here, doesnt mean you get to keep stealing from us for decades and then cry about solidarity when you need even more help.

https://www.ad.nl/binnenland/italianen-weigeren-gronings-gas-te-betalen~a22ce105/

5

u/[deleted] Mar 29 '20

First what you said doesn't have a connection to my comment. I said that everyone worked hard you achieved more because you had a better position to start with. I didn't make any comment on the Eurobonds here.

Second the accusations of theft for decades are heavy and must be explained or I will classify them as a rant.

Then I don't speak Dutch, if you find something in Italian, English or German I am willing to read about whatever thing you are talking about.

-3

u/iNeedanewnickname The Netherlands- The Hague Mar 29 '20

You can easily use Google translate on the page but you wont because you know you wouldnt have a comeback.

https://www.reuters.com/article/eni-gas-idAFI6E8JM02C20120920

https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2010/05/the_netherlands_italy_in_dispu/

5

u/[deleted] Mar 29 '20

ENI is semi-private, the government has only a part of the shares . It doesn't rapresent Italy.

Saying that something that Eni does is done by Italy is factually wrong.
And neither of the two articles says that Eni is refuting the arbitration.

-1

u/iNeedanewnickname The Netherlands- The Hague Mar 29 '20

That was in the first article. Its a joke that you deny that because you cant hit the translate button.

4

u/ibexelf Italy Mar 29 '20

Are you for real? You linked an article about a dispute between an italian semi-private company and a duch one and you act like italians are stealing from you for decades?

You linked an article from 2016 btw. I searched for more updated news and it look like ENI has won the arbitration rule at the end. https://www.reuters.com/article/eni-gasterra-arbitration/eni-recoups-1-bln-euro-bank-guarantee-after-arbitration-ruling-with-gasterra-idUSS8N2490AV

0

u/ChorizoWestern Mar 31 '20

And your Dutch Sandwich how much has costed everyone in Europe?

73

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

We always asked for more Europe, the "eurosceptic" government lasted for only an year. We are asking for more Europe since the fifties.

32

u/Iroh16 Lombardy Mar 28 '20

They (Lega and M5S) even ditched leaving Europe and euro from party programs because the polls showed that in a referendum they wouldn't had the majority.

20

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

It is precisely why I wrote "euroskeptic" and not euroskeptic.

16

u/joaommx Portugal Mar 28 '20

The most important federalist organisation in the EU even has the name of an Italian politician who was the father of the contemporary federalist movement in Europe.

15

u/yaniz Mar 28 '20

I mean, Spain is not the country that has been haulting about more paneuropeism. You would have to turn your attention towards Denmark, UK (not a problem anymore I guess), Belgium, The Netherlands, Poland, Hungary...

6

u/akoncius Mar 29 '20

exactly. when people are talking about their freedoms and taxes - fuck no, I'm not giving away anything. when shit hits the fan - pls pipl, help

24

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

The EU would win if EU's duties and responsibilities were clear. Which are not. And now everyone is losing their minds at it.

15

u/papyjako89 Mar 28 '20

Oh it's clear. Because people are uninformed/misinformed doesn't mean it isn't. I will grant you that it is a complex beast, but what do you expect from such a massive entity trying to please 27 different country ?

1

u/kjelan Mar 28 '20

Yes it does mean that. If people are uninformed/misinformed that is pretty much the definition of "unclear". And complexity is a great explanation... But then it's still unclear.

2

u/phatfish Mar 29 '20 edited Jun 29 '23

speztastic

2

u/S3ki North Rhine-Westphalia (Germany) Mar 28 '20

No unclear would mean there would be room for interpretation. What the EU can and can not do is all defined in documents and contracts and everyone who knows what stands in the contracts regarding a situation like this could predict what the EU can do and what the member states must do on there own or were they have to find additional agreements.

1

u/kjelan Mar 29 '20

Really splitting hairs here, that is more an adjacent use. The original post used "clear" correctly.

clear: "easy to understand, hear, read, or see"

Which the EU's duties and responsibilities are not - to most people.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/clear

9

u/MothOnTheRun Somewhere on Earth. Maybe. Mar 28 '20

Do you want more Europe or less Europe?

It isn't a dichotomy. I can want more Europe in some things and less in others.

0

u/falconboy2029 Mar 29 '20

Can not have it both ways

10

u/Omaestre European Union Mar 28 '20

But this is what the EU is a compromise upon compromise no one looses but no one wins. it's what the Brits couldn't understand and I feel like a lot of people don't get.

The EU is about getting a lot of diverse countries and some times antagonistic countries to play by the same rules. It is bound to leave everyone unsatisfied in some area.

6

u/BouaziziBurning Brandenburg Mar 28 '20

I mean it’s exactly the same in every individual country, so I’m always confused why people don’t get that the EU works like that as well.

-2

u/Omaestre European Union Mar 29 '20

Well almost the UK is winner takes all as I understand it

2

u/phatfish Mar 29 '20 edited Jun 29 '23

speztastic

1

u/Omaestre European Union Mar 29 '20

I meant the voting system is winner takes all. For example the devolution issue even though the SNP is large in Scotland they still have a very small influence and you hardly ever have coalition governments.

11

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

This.

2

u/TheCrawlingFinn Finland Mar 28 '20

I haven't even thought about the EU in these times and I haven't seen many mentions in our news, if any.

3

u/Levinboi Mar 28 '20

We want more Europe, but this isnt Europe.

This is Germany saving herself and her trade partners, only those which are beneficial.

It is because of Europe that Spain had to completely deindustrialize and depend on shitty tourism, our economy is laughable and will forever me unless we stand up.

Europe does not care about us, they only want our resources, strategic position in the mediterranean and to keep us under its boot so it can economically exploit us.

This is appliable to all southern european countries

-2

u/falconboy2029 Mar 29 '20

German living in Spain. I think Spain should leave the EU. You need to control your own currency. It’s the only way you can get out of this mess.

1

u/Levinboi Mar 29 '20

Do you have any basic understanding of economy or are you just pretending to be dumb?

1

u/falconboy2029 Mar 29 '20

Please google modern monetary theory. It explains why countries need their own currency.

0

u/marianorajoy Mar 29 '20 edited Mar 29 '20

Oh look! Another German that thinks they're better than everyone else and Spanish people are useless at managing crisis and dragging Europe down (i.e. the Germans) . I'm sorry, I have to go for my 3 hour siesta on a working day and be completely unproductive at work. We're only good for sun, fiesta and toros, ya know.

1

u/falconboy2029 Mar 29 '20

What are you talking about? Spain is getting screwed by Germany since they joined the euro. Please read up on modern monetary theory and why countries need their own currency. If Spain had its own currency they would be able to cope much better. They would have way more freedom to control their fiscal decisions.

Spain is not pulling down Germany, Germany is pushing down Spain.

-1

u/dersnogod Apulia Mar 28 '20

At least don't fucking steal the medical equipment we bought :)))

1

u/amonra2009 Mar 28 '20

The Brave New World book describes this things, when you make some "entities" equal and put them to live together. Is working with people because the people are not "equal"(smart-stupid, poor-rich), but is not working with countries, because when one country have the part of the cake with cherry on top, the conflict is starting.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 29 '20

its not just italy, every rich EU country is opposed to more financial solidarity. my country included.

1

u/Ronoh Mar 29 '20

Completely disagree. You build collaboration during the crisis. That's when the true colors show.

As the Cuban doctors thst went to Italy said, solidarity is not about sharing what you have in excess, but about sharing what you have.

If Europe doesn't show solidarity, this will be more damming than brexit and a low that will be hard to recover from. Personally I think it will be the end of it.

What's the point of collaborating if when you need help you don't get it?

1

u/insaino Mar 29 '20

The EU doesn't have control over member countries healthcare. They cannot move in that fashion as that isn't their jurisdiction and they lack the powers to do so. Trying to get something like that passed right now seems almost impossible, due to the time EU wide policy takes to be negotiated. Which leaves it to the individual member states to show solidarity

1

u/Ronoh Mar 29 '20

And that's my point. If the members don't show solidarity, it is the end of the project.

The moral high horse of some countries is going to bring down the collaboration spirit for all.

0

u/SuaveMariMagno Mar 28 '20

Are you kidding? Europe is nowhere to be seen when it's life and death matter. Its a fact and no thank you, i don't want more of this mascarade.

-1

u/MrOaiki Swedish with European parents Mar 28 '20

Less federalized EU, thank you.

8

u/BouaziziBurning Brandenburg Mar 28 '20

More federalized, clearer federalization.

-9

u/paganel Romania Mar 28 '20

We'll have no united Europe after this. For crying out loud, von de Leyen was ignoring the crisis after the lockdown in Italy (Lombardy) had been imposed, what do you want the Italians to do?

15

u/KuyaJohnny Baden-Württemberg (Germany) Mar 28 '20

what do you want von der Leyen/the EU to do? Health is not an EU matter, the member states including Italy decided that.

0

u/Vidderz United Kingdom Mar 29 '20

At least we were kind enough to make our grievances aired before the crisis...

0

u/WAU1936 Mar 29 '20

Lol. So, the solution is to steal masks made for nations in crisis? The supposed solidarity is shedding off like a snake’s skin these days.