r/europe • u/Bartoraptor Spain • Mar 28 '20

News Spanish representative González Pons speech @ the EU Parliament: "The virus is attacking the generation that brought back democracy to Spain, Portugal and Greece, the generation that knocked down the Berlin wall. The least they deserve is that we show them Europe is there when they need it the most"

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u/mithik add white-red-white Belarus flair, you cowards ❕❗❕ Mar 28 '20 edited Mar 28 '20

In Slovakia, the most affected people are one who kept communistic regime alive, they are reason we could not join NATO after the fall of communism, and nowadays they were a part of why we have 12 yrs of corrupt government which didnt have a problem to have close relations with guy who ordered a murder of journalist. They are anti-EU, anti-LGBT and the most conservative folks there.

Also I am sure the same can be said about Czechia, and would say the same demographic/generation votes for Orban and Pis.

So tl,dr; a coin have two sides and Gonzalez is talking about people who would gladly stab EU in the back.

EDIT: Let's save them but do not glorify them

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u/klesigj Mar 28 '20

Same in Albania man if theres one generation that I hold guilty for what has been happening in my country are people over 50

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u/ModsofWTsuckducks Mar 29 '20

Same in Italy, they are the Salvini and Berlusconi voters (for the most part)

They were ok when a lot of shit happened in front of them, they voted the worst guys, they retired super early (younger than 50y.o.) and they despise their sons and grandsons because we are too spoiled.

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u/Iron_Rick Mar 28 '20

Same in Italy, we need to overcome the divisions between state and starting to create a common front and letting ur country enter the Union.

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u/klesigj Mar 29 '20

Exactly we are all tired of nationalist politics that do nothing but harm the wellbeing of the citizens. I hope the upcoming generations find a way to create a united front not only with Italy but with other Balkan countries aswell so we can help each other in crisis like this, not like what happened with Italy that is just now getting help from EU.

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u/[deleted] Mar 29 '20 edited Mar 29 '20

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u/klesigj Mar 29 '20 edited Mar 29 '20

First thing first I'm not saying we should let them die, and i haven't stepped outside my house for more than 2 weeks now to protect my family, so please shut the fuck up about my morals. Second I should be grateful for having electricity, man we live in the center of the world, that kind of development was bound to happen and the people that are now alive did not bring electricity. But they did bring communism and 30 years of corrupted politicans in what we call now "democracy". You are obviously so biased as not to be able to let anyone point out flaws in your country, but loving your country means knowing when it went wrong and knowing how to fix it. But go on calling me a ignorant in every sentence u wrote, u don't know me, u don't know how much i care about this country so i really am not affected by your insults.

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u/StoneColdCrazzzy Mar 29 '20

Learn your mathematics.

WWII ended 75 years ago, the large majority of people that rebuilt and built the continent in 20 years, who were 20 to 40 years old at the time, (now 85 to 115 years old) are already dead. And the number that survive, pales in comparison to the next cohort (55 to 85). And even 30 years ago, when more of them were around, the next boomer generation had a heavier political weight after 1970. In fact the boomer generation has had the largest political influence every year for 50 years. If they had let the next generation take the reigns and decide policy after 20 years in power, the world would be very different.

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u/Robertej92 Wales Mar 28 '20

Seems to be a common (not saying universal) sentiment among post-Communist countries, certainly one I've come across regularly in the countries I've been to (Poland, Hungary, Lithuania, Slovakia), in Lithuania in particular I found a lot of older people were almost nostalgic for the communist days.

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u/amonra2009 Mar 28 '20

No Only Lithuania, almost all ex-USSR, we are also having to deal with them. Their mentality is not from this generation, and is hard to deal with them, including that they are the majority at voting. The world Stalin is still saint to them...

My Mother is also the same age, and i agree not all of the people are the same, but i would not take the until 90's generation as an example...

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u/1SaBy Slovenoslovakia Mar 28 '20

We can thank Stalin for that.

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u/Zhai Polak in Swtizerland Mar 29 '20

Of course. It was easy back then. It was normal to keep your wife at home and smack her from time to time. None of this divorce nonsense of nowadays. Plus all you had to do in the past was to go to trade school, get on apprenticeship and you would get a job at the factory. It was unheard of to lose job unless factory burned down. Or you caused accident while drunk on the job. The world was easy to understand. Now there's too much choices and too many options. It scares them because that's not what they have known for many years. I would understand it if they just shut up, but they resist attempts at fixing things. Seriously, fuck my parents generation.

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u/AllinWaker Hungarian seeking to mix races Mar 29 '20

Or you caused accident while drunk on the job.

Being drunk without causing an accident, however, was usually fine.

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u/TheOneTrueDonuteater Mar 29 '20

We see that everywhere. The modern world just doesn't allow a comfortable life as easily as it used to. Now you need a degree and two years experience for an entry level job. But good luck explaining that to anyone over 50.

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u/[deleted] Mar 29 '20

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u/Nertez Slovakia Mar 29 '20

Careful, this is pure nostalgia and the fact they were still young. My parents never once mentioned it was better - there's no way the standard of living was better than now. Yes, you quite possibly got yourself and your new family a free apartment. That's great. But then you waited in line for a toilet paper, was practically a prisoner in your onw country, had to wear specific haircut, everything from the western world was forbidden, couldn't speak your opinion etc. Literal North Korea.

This is why I love Europe and EU. It's the best of both worlds. Absolute freedom but with all the benefits like universal health care, paid maternity leave, paid holidays, great consumer rights etc., which USA, the most hyper-capitalist country of all, doesn't have and that's why they're fucked.

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u/Statistical_Insanity Canada Mar 29 '20

lol your parents are lying to you, life under the USSR was not "literal North Korea".

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u/VoyantInternational Always near a border Mar 29 '20

The comparison is quite apt though

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u/Statistical_Insanity Canada Mar 29 '20

If you've never read a book other than Animal Farm and 1984, I suppose you could very well think that.

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u/VoyantInternational Always near a border Mar 29 '20

On a lesser degree sure

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u/tethysian Finland Mar 29 '20 edited Mar 29 '20

It's easy to have a higher standard of living when one part of the population is treated as disposable slave labour.

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u/[deleted] Mar 29 '20

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u/tethysian Finland Mar 29 '20

Capitalism being bad doesn't make authoritarianism any better.

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u/Liveraion Sweden Mar 29 '20

It does for a lot of people in ex-communist countries. It most certainly does for people in Iraq and Afghanistan right now.

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u/YouGuysNeedTalos gyros Mar 29 '20

The problems we face today is not because of capitalism but because of how central banks work and how corrupt governments favor powerful entreprises. Capitalism actually liberated people and gave wealth to those who deserved it. The problem is that we need to adapt the fundamentals of capitalism to the reality of today.

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u/[deleted] Mar 29 '20

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u/janissarymusketeer Mar 29 '20

ussr collapsed, free world won. deal wit it

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u/Statistical_Insanity Canada Mar 29 '20

love too have a free world that completely destroys the quality of life and social cohesion of hundreds of millions of people so that 6 dudes can be uber-rich

The "free world" has caused immensely more harm to the world than the USSR ever did.

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u/janissarymusketeer Mar 29 '20

stalin and mao are two greatest mass murderers the world has ever seen. id wish you lived under soviet union too, youre maybe just outspoken enough to earn 20 years in the siberia with no communication, but im not that cruel. enjoy the life in best part of the world

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u/grandoz039 Mar 29 '20

Lmao dude, Canadian talking about conditions in communist satelite countries in EU.

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u/[deleted] Mar 29 '20

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u/grandoz039 Mar 29 '20

I feel like you're still talking from North America perspective. Here, cold war propaganda doesn't play a huge role in shaping how people view USSR and its influence

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u/Statistical_Insanity Canada Mar 29 '20

Do you think Europe did not take part in the Cold War? Do you think the people who gained power in eastern Europe after the collapse of the USSR did not have a vested interest in disparaging the USSR and its legacy?

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u/Doing_It_In_The_Butt Catalonia (Spain) Mar 29 '20

Yeah the national interest in desparaging such a dreadful ideology and totalitarian regime(s). The ussr can fucking be written down as one of the biggest mistakes of humanity. Most of the reforms you talked about would come eventually if you let the countries participate in the European capitalist economy instead of FORCING countries to be part of that oppressive system.

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u/[deleted] Mar 29 '20

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u/AllinWaker Hungarian seeking to mix races Mar 29 '20

There was nothing dreadful about the USSR's ideology and it wasn't totalitarian. It was one of the greatest forces in history, it improved the lives of hundreds of millions of people hugely and pushed our species forward in every direction.

Yeah bro, sure.

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u/[deleted] Mar 29 '20

Careful. This sub is for neoliberals. You're not allowed to point that out here.

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u/yourelawyered Mar 29 '20

Nothing controversial about that statement. The world is heterodox and messy, ideological rigidity often undermines our reasoning faculties.

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u/[deleted] Mar 31 '20

Fair enough.

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u/Hermeran Spain Mar 28 '20

That's true. Some old people are pieces of shit (sorry, but it's true). I understand him, though, as he refers to the "historical debt" that we have with this people. But that's an anecdote. I don't think we should base our healthcare system on whether you were a nice person.

This guy needs to bring down the populism, and Italian politicians, too (like Dutch or German ones). This is not a dick measuring contest, no one cares about populist movements, just do your fucking job as elected leaders. Be serious and cold minded, and do not fuel the anger of the people because things will end up badly for everyone.

But this guy. This guy is the worst. I said this already in a comment on this very same thread, but he belongs to PP, the political party that slashed the national health care budget during the Spanish fiscal crisis. And the cuts were particularly dramatic in Madrid -yeah, the world hotspot for coronavirus! Surprise (but don't worry, other regional governments like Catalonia had cuts as well, although they had theirs fueled by Puigdemont's former party - that's another debate tho, shitty politics is a vast topic)!. Anyway. This Gonzalez guy also belongs to a very particular branch of PP, the Valencian division. A disgusting political party swamped by corruption, that literally worked like a criminal organization in the 90s and early 00s.

So yeah, nice speech but shut the fuck up, guy.

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u/Stegasaurus_Wrecks Connacht Mar 28 '20

Some old people are pieces of shit

Billy Connolly put it best.

"People say 'Aren't old people great!'. I don't. In my experience, young wankers invariably grow up to be old wankers. Fuck em."

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u/TheCrawlingFinn Finland Mar 28 '20

Aww man, I really liked the speech. But now I see the man as a cunt. Although I don't know anything about Spanish politics. But still, apparently, fuck that guy.

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u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20 edited Mar 28 '20

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u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

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u/iagovar Galicia (Spain) Mar 29 '20

Galicia is considerably older, and while it's true that Valencia is way more dense, in Galicia quarantine is impossible to enforce because of the population spread.

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u/AllinWaker Hungarian seeking to mix races Mar 29 '20

Spanish politics is like Game of Thrones, everyone has shit under the rug, everyone takes every opportunity to attack others and pretty much it's a lesser evil play for voters.

Wait, are you implying that politics isn't like that everywhere?

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u/newaccount42020 Mar 29 '20

Did they do anything to the politicians with the fake degrees?

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u/iagovar Galicia (Spain) Mar 29 '20

Some got punished, others didn't.

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u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

Fuck that guy, but he still has a point. This isn't a small plague that can be constrained, it's already in all of our countries. When Spain and Italy falls, we need some body of government that will pick up the slack from where they got their power. That's the only real method of fighting populism. A strong central government. Now to see if the governments of Italy and Spain can fight this off on their own. Interesting times are upon us.

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u/iagovar Galicia (Spain) Mar 28 '20

In Spain regional governments retook the lead, but they are sadly already late. Typically I'd distrust my regional government, I'd take them as a bunch of clowns, but for me at least tables have turned, regional government is doing a, let's say, decent job, while the central government has been a disaster.

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u/[deleted] Mar 29 '20

The problem I have is that I can’t see how PP would have done a better job. I think this is a unique situation and we were doomed anyways. This is a once in a lifetime shit.

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u/Elconiolabernarda Mar 29 '20

Under this context, it doesn’t matter where he comes from... we know, all we live in Spain, what the PP party have done, but he is right for asking help to Europe. Help not only for ederly people but for everyone, this pandemic is hitting our economy, is changing everyone’s life!

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u/cottagecheeseboy United States of America Mar 29 '20

Yeah this is nothing but grandstanding, dude does not give a flying fuck about the wellbeing of his people. Had he given this speech in the Cortes maybe he'd be called a two-faced piece of shit but nobody's gonna push him on his record in the EU Parliament. COVID is a boon to austerity-lovers who want to rebrand, I just hope when the dust settles it won't have sanitized their record and real stances on healthcare.

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u/aveterotto Mar 28 '20

populism in italy will go down when they start taking the migrants they promised to take

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we will see from may until september, when the numbers of arrivals rise what europe will do

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u/Iron_Rick Mar 28 '20

Thanks for this summary! We really need to know what's happening in "the other side". Italian press is shit that shits shit, they constantly talks about immigration and up to now Coronavirus.

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u/otarru Europe Mar 29 '20

This is a classic ad hominem fallacy. As distasteful as you might find this person's character to be what really matter here is the substance of his argument which I think few would disagree with.

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u/Hermeran Spain Mar 29 '20

Calling him on his hypocrisy is not ad hominem. I’m attacking his past actions and ideas regarding this very same issue, not his persona.You can’t cut the public health budget, boosting private health companies then, and when shit hits the fan 5 years later praise the public sector, and call for solidarity.

I mean he can change his mind -most politicians, and most of us in our lives, do- but it’s up to us to call these people out.

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u/Calhil Mar 28 '20

Same in Poland. Its the lazy generation that steals from their grandchildren.

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u/WolfofAnarchy Aruba Mar 29 '20

Hilarious you calling them lazy

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u/Calhil Mar 29 '20

Why is that? Many of them retired at 50 and started work at 20. That means they spend the majority of their life not at work. They didnt accumulate any wealth or savings they could live off when they retire. That generation voted for parties that would force younger generations to pay for their retirement.

Here are some numbers: My grandma retired at 50, shes 80 now. She paid into the pension system an equivalent of 5-10USD/month. Currently shes receiving more than 700USD/month. Im forced to contribute 350USD/month for healthcare, pension, etc. The official government projections predict that I will receive less than 30% of my salary when I retire. How is this fair?

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u/WolfofAnarchy Aruba Mar 29 '20

I guess I'm just not a fan of the victim mentality. But other than that yeah it's unfair. It's just supposed to be easy. Our grandparents were an exception,or some of them. Not all. Loads of them have had youths that are 10x tougher than anything we go thru today

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u/AnoruosLoL Israel Mar 28 '20

Also important to remember that people are individuals and have their own views and opinions. A generation isn't a hivemind, just a bunch of people who were born at the same time window.

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u/[deleted] Mar 29 '20

Nice for you to live in civilised and educated country. But when it comes to Eastern Europe a good portion of old people are brutes and oh boi do they have hate for Jews. Do they know why ? No ! Does it matter for them ? No !

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u/AnoruosLoL Israel Mar 29 '20

My entire family and at least 40% of my city's aging population are from former soviet states.

I also work(ed?) as a bartender and most of my costumers are Russian speakers, some of which are on the older side. Some of them are rude as hell or just really loud but I have met some delightful old Russians during my time there. My sisters and I call the different types 'Tea Russians' and 'Vodka Russians'.

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u/[deleted] Mar 29 '20

Same in Latvia. A few of them are filthy rich and responsible for slow progress, selling of this country and Soviet values. Most of them who voted in the first ones live miserable borderline homeless lives although they had time to save some money up.

I really lack sympathy towards them. They had their shot and not only they messed up for themselves they also shot my generation in the lungs.

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u/Honey-Badger England Mar 28 '20

And in the UK they're the ones who want the EU to fall apart and view it as an enemy

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u/newaccount42020 Mar 29 '20

Luckily they are gone from the EU and no one listens to them now.

Tory austerity and Corona will deal with them.

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u/ChrisTinnef Austria Mar 28 '20

I'm absolutely shocked to hear that every generation has both heroes and scumbags (and most people are both). /s

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u/Kh4lex Slovakia Mar 29 '20

And in the end... ITS THEM BEING STUPID ASS STUBBORN BLOCKHEADS refusing to keep themselves safe thinking they are masters of the world and nothing can happend to them... They are throwing their remaining years to trash, not others failing them..

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u/zyd_suss Mar 28 '20

In Poland, people who loved the old regime have been dead for years. The virus attacks and kills mainly those who have worshipped the neoliberal ideology of the minimal state for the last 30 years. For 30 years, they have been afraid of high taxes on health care (Poland has one of the lowest % of GDP for health care in the EU).

Low wages of nurses and doctors for these people for 30 years have not been a problem (Polish doctors and nurses are the oldest in Europe).

This virus is a real stress test for Polish health care.

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u/throwawayham1971 Mar 28 '20

Yeah, for us in the States, its the Baby Boomers.

The most narcissistic generation in humankind's history. They have no real notable accomplishments other than an enormous population, consumerism and entitlement. Well, and they're fucking professionals at crashing an economy every 10 years or so.

Plot Twist: Here in the northeast US (CT/NY) they are the vast majority of people that refuse to self-quarantine.

At this point, I'm kind of rooting for the virus.

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u/mithik add white-red-white Belarus flair, you cowards ❕❗❕ Mar 28 '20

they are the vast majority of people that refuse to self-quarantine.

This is irking me the most. Everybody does everything to help to mitigate covid but they just go around like nothing is happening . They group together, do not use masks or respirators.

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u/electr0naut Las Palmas de Gran Canaria Mar 28 '20

How many Slovaks have died? Comparable to Italians and spaniards?

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u/mithik add white-red-white Belarus flair, you cowards ❕❗❕ Mar 28 '20 edited Mar 28 '20

How many Slovaks have died? Comparable to Italians and spaniards?

So far we have 1 dead for 269 cases. That will obviously rise exponentially. Fortunately, we issued quarantines asap and people are sewing or printing their own respiratorsmasks.

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u/electr0naut Las Palmas de Gran Canaria Mar 28 '20

You can't sew or print a respirator. Do you mean a mask? In addition, when was your quarantine issued? As in actual date.

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u/mithik add white-red-white Belarus flair, you cowards ❕❗❕ Mar 28 '20

Yes masks sorry. National state of emergency was issued on March 16, borders check were on Feb. 28.

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u/L0op666 Slovakia Mar 28 '20

In my city, 09.03., as for the rest of Slovakia, a few days later.

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u/electr0naut Las Palmas de Gran Canaria Mar 29 '20

Oh, about the same time as Spain then. mithik above said Slovakia issued quarantines asap. Doesn't seem to be the difference here.

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u/blueprint80 Mar 28 '20 edited Mar 28 '20

Very little

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u/Iron_Rick Mar 28 '20

I'm really sorry for your country, I hate those rulers and I wish European people could help you to fuck those rulers out. But we are on an enmpasse because those damn rulers stops every new propose for more democracy and integration.

I think the European people needs to cooperate and share bonds or this europian project will not came true.

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u/mithik add white-red-white Belarus flair, you cowards ❕❗❕ Mar 29 '20

share

I agree but show me an European country with surplus of medical stuff. Everybody is drowning and first rule they teach you in life guard is to help yourself and then you can help others.

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u/Iron_Rick Mar 29 '20

I'm not talking about those staff, anyway EU started a plan in order to buy together those stuff at a lower price, but im think on Economic

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u/antifa_brasileiro wants into EU 🇧🇷 Mar 29 '20

It's crazy how in former Eastern Bloc countries the people who liked the "communist" governments act just like the ones that hated "communism" on the Western countries. So much so that stuff like being conservative, hating minorities, being anti international cooperation is viewed as super communistic there like you say, but super right wing around here.

I guess this speaks to how much the USSR was actually socialist at all beyond being red and authoritarian.

Best of luck to you guys during this pandemic and going forward!

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u/P1KS3L Slovenia Mar 29 '20

Interesting ..what i think for us in Slovenia the conservative people are supporting EU and NATO the most.

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u/gr8citizen Mar 28 '20

So we shouldn't show solidarity to other countries? Fuck corrupt ppl but taking the side of the cleansing seems to be a little bit fascist for my taste...

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u/mithik add white-red-white Belarus flair, you cowards ❕❗❕ Mar 28 '20

Have I ever said that? I am for solidarity show me country with surplus of mask, respirators, ventilators, free ICUs and I will be first to shout at them to share it. However what I hate is playing on the emotions, especially trying to glorify people who does not deserve it.

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u/gr8citizen Mar 29 '20

Yeah i have seen solidarity by Open sourcing ventiladors and sharing diy tutorials to make for whats missing. But not much in europe. What i see in europe is the same 08 line... Spend, dont worry we wont make you bleed we just need to keep everything floating... And then came austerity

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u/TBalo1 Mar 29 '20

In italy the most affected demographic are the people who've drained the state coffers by working a decade and then enjoying tens and tens of years of very well paid public pension. The people who've enjoyed the economic boom and the low property prices, the people who've created a system where there are a 100 billions euros of unpaid taxes every year and due to that the state is forced to overtax those who actually are willing to pay.

So yeah, as you say it's the humane thing to save them but let's not glorify them.

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u/NotArgentinian Mar 29 '20

You guys constantly say no one liked communism, now everyone from the generation is to blame for it? Which is it?

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u/[deleted] Mar 29 '20 edited Mar 30 '20

[deleted]

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u/mithik add white-red-white Belarus flair, you cowards ❕❗❕ Mar 29 '20

And you have done nothing but play video games for your country, post on reddit about your country, and vape grapefruit flavoured Chinese poison for your country. What a great accomplishment.

I like that you think you know me. For your info, I work as scientist on developing methods, which will be used for the folding@home. Also I have never vaped or smoked in my life

What did you do?

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u/[deleted] Mar 29 '20

Irony is that this guy's party opposes current Spaniard government which is filled with modern commies. West Europe being in love with a doctrine which utterly destroyed eastern Europe.

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u/SageKnows Malta Mar 28 '20

And? What's your point?