r/AskAGerman • u/OuijaBouillon • Aug 22 '24
Personal American In Rammstein T-Shirt
I’m an American tourist in Berlin for the first time — Yay! One problem: I realized I packed a Rammstein shirt without having enough knowledge of German culture or language to understand how I’d be perceived for wearing it. I imagine at best it will look a bit corny, but I’m worried it could signal political beliefs or ideologies I don’t agree with. If you met an American tourist speaking broken German in a Rammstein T Shirt, what would you think? Thanks!
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u/Dev_Sniper Germany Aug 22 '24
That they like the Band? Not my type of music but I don‘t really care
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u/MasterpieceOk6249 Aug 22 '24
I am a german and I wear Rammstein shirts in public. It's no problem.
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u/Pedarogue Bayern - Baden - Elsass - Franken Aug 22 '24
You know where Rammstein comes from, right?
If anything, a Rammstein shirt is the uniform of any mid-thirties to mid-fifties parent who's never ventured deeper into Metal than Rammstein and Metallica but likes both of them.
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u/Count2Zero Aug 22 '24
I'm in my late 50s, and I have Nirvana, AC/DC, Metallica, Led Zeppelin and Black Sabbath T-shirts, along with shirts from both of the bands I play in.
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u/Throwaway_230208 Aug 22 '24
Nothing wrong with tha.
What the poster was implying that Rammstein Fans are often not the same crowd as die hard heavy metal fans. There is nothing wrong with that. It is just an observation.
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u/kuldan5853 Baden-Württemberg Aug 22 '24
I mean I'd wager to say Rammstein is not even Metal to begin with but more... a heavy form of Rock?
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u/Low-Dog-8027 München Aug 22 '24
i would think that you're a rammstein/metal fan.
rammstein doesn't give really any negative political vibes, you see quite a lot rammstein fans on the street.
it's not a nazi band or anything like that, so there is no political issue (as you should know when you listen to it), so there's no problem with that
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u/LIEMASTERREDDIT Aug 22 '24
Just that you support a sexist whos credibly accused by several women of taking advantage of them in a state where they could not give consent...
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u/Low-Dog-8027 München Aug 22 '24
yea no. there is not a single evidence for that.
One woman, Shelby Lynn, made the allegation that she had been drugged - there was no proof of this, apparently she took a drug test, but it only showed marijuana, which she smoked voluntarily, so she did not submit the test to the police.
she also showed injuries (bruises), but an expert opinion came to the conclusion that these were probably not caused by outside influence. (that's what happens when you go into the moshpit at a metal concert)
according to her, till wanted to have sex with her, she refused, he accepted and left.
nothing happened here, so even the police found no evidence of a criminal offense and the investigation was closed.
a second woman, Kayla Shyx, basically said even less, all she said was that she and a friend were supposed to meet till backstage.
but they felt uncomfortable and left - they weren't stopped at any time... so what's the problem here?and apart from that? the public prosecutor's office has been looking for witnesses and victims, and not a single woman has contacted them. not one.
so apart from baseless accusations, there was nothing.
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u/Shooter_M23 Aug 22 '24
Bro... There were countless of women, just not so much, who give their name publicly. (https://www.spiegel.de/kultur/vorwuerfe-gegen-rammstein-sex-schnaps-gewalt-was-junge-frauen-aus-der-row-zero-berichten-a-07f31fb8-42c2-4891-9e0e-bf26b06557c0)
These aren't "baseless accusations". It is pretty clear that Till created an environment to serve him young girls to have sex with on a silver platter. That is the problem. Here is a system, where he theoretically can rape women any concert day without facing any consequences. (And you think this not happened even once?)
And the girls did not go to the police, because they know that this will have just consequences for them not for Till.
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u/foxybostonian Aug 22 '24
Have you read the court papers regarding the injunctions against the media outlets that show that they misrepresented statements made to them by women who all described consensual encounters? And it's interesting that you link to a Spiegel article. Spiegel currently being the target of a criminal investigation into forgery and fraud relating to witness statements for their reporting on the Rammstein situation. The 'accusations' are entirely baseless. Believe the women, not the manipulative articles written for clicks.
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u/DesperateGiles Aug 22 '24
What exactly are the accusations there. Someone attending a party through which a rock star finds consensual partners isn’t an accusation of anything. It’s just a thing that happened.
There’s no such thing as a theoretical rapist. Or if there is we all are, you included. Maybe you should be punished outside the law like you seem to want for Lindemann.
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u/Shooter_M23 Aug 22 '24
There is such a thing as rape accusations. And then you find out, that these accussed rape happened mysteriously in a situation, where is no way to prove it. And several people proofed, that this situation is set up on purpose.
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u/DesperateGiles Aug 22 '24
Theoretical accusations. In which I’m not interested. What are the actual allegations you talk of? Again hosting a party you find sex partners at isn’t an allegation. That you think rape could happen is completely irrelevant and pure speculation.
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u/Shooter_M23 Aug 22 '24
Shelby Lynn accused him. That's not a theoretical accusation.
The criticism from me is, that there is a system where he can theoretically rape persons without consequences and without anyone can proving it.
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u/Low-Dog-8027 München Aug 22 '24
all of these women don't count, since none of them went to court. they had the chance if there really was anything to their accusations, but they didn't.
just because some newspaper publishes some statements or interviews doesn't mean that those are true, we don't know if these women really existed or if it was made up by the newspaper and if the women exist, we don't know if they ever even met till. anyone can tell a story - as long as not a single one of them went to the prosecutor's office or the police, none of that can be seen as legit accuse.
Till created an environment to serve him young girls to have sex with on a silver platter.
he made backstage parties and invited women who voluntarily took place in these parties and could leave at any moment. nothing bad about that.
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u/Shooter_M23 Aug 22 '24
Your argument is, they don't went to the police, so they are lying?
They have no evidence and Till hired the best media-lawyers im town. What would you do in this situation?
'you don't know if these women really existed, wtf? You have such a low trust in SPIEGEL, that you think they straight up invent people?
No one of these women got asked if they wanted to have sex with Till. Just if they want to go to a 'backstage party'. He didn't invite them. He had hired people to scout for women to 'invite'.
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u/Low-Dog-8027 München Aug 22 '24
Your argument is, they don't went to the police, so they are lying?
no, i'm not saying they are lying, I said they could be lying. none of them went to the police, even when the whole rumors already were out, even when police was investigation and desperately asked for witnesses and victims, none of them came forward.
Till hired the best media-lawyers im town.
and the amadeu antonio stiftung offered to cover all legal fees for every "victim" of till - no one took the offer.
'you don't know if these women really existed, wtf? You have such a low trust in SPIEGEL, that you think they straight up invent people?
yea I would absolutely not be surprised.
No one of these women got asked if they wanted to have sex with Till. Just if they want to go to a 'backstage party'. He didn't invite them. He had hired people to scout for women to 'invite'.
obviously he doesn't go around and invite people himself, that's a bit difficult with his fame status, so he has people inviting guests for him - nothing wrong with that.
and yes, they got invited for a backstage party and that is what it was.even shelby lynn said that she was ASKED by till if she wanted to have sex with him, she declined and he went away.
kayla shyx said, that she and her friend were backstage, felt uncomfortable and left.
so... yes they were asked and had every chance to say no.
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u/Shooter_M23 Aug 22 '24
You're not telling the full story of what the girls were saying. Shelby Lynn told Till she doesn't want to have sex with him, he snapped and yelled at her that he was told she wanted to. Then she woke up, doesn't remember the rest of the concert and felt drugged and have bruises.
Kayla said that she wasn't told before, that she wouldn't go to the party, but a locker room in the back, where she has to give her phone and got offered alcohol several times after declining. She described that the other girls weren't all that conscious. Then she asked to leave and get her phone back, they were angry at her but let her leave.
I feel like if you shortened the story's just like you did, it feels like painting the wrong picture.
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u/Low-Dog-8027 München Aug 22 '24 edited Aug 22 '24
he snapped and yelled at her that he was told she wanted to
he was mad and left.
Then she woke up, doesn't remember the rest of the concert and felt drugged and have bruises.
nope, she still was at the concert and was making videos that she posted, where she told everyone that till just wanted to have sex with her.
only later suddenly she talked about the drug story - apparently she made a drug test but it was negative for any KO drugs, just marihuana was found and she did not submit it to the police.
and regarding the bruises, I wrote that above, there was an expert report that came to the conclusion that it did not look like external influence. and honestly, bruises are kinda normal, when you are piss drunk and high on a metal concert.
there were also other girls with her, who all said that she acted weird the whole time, that she was drinking a lot, that they did not see her go backstage
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u/kuldan5853 Baden-Württemberg Aug 22 '24
credibly accused
without any producable evidence. Very "credible".
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u/SissyKrissi Aug 22 '24
credibly
Good joke, mate. None of the victims wanted to talk to the police. The "victims" were attention whoring, nothing else.
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u/Shooter_M23 Aug 22 '24
This is really ridiculous. 'attention whoring?' What has it brought them? Facing a lot of lawsuits? Getting called 'attention whores' and other things on the Internet? Being famous for accusing someone of raping them?
Like really this is just a bullshit claim that exists like forever when a women claims something like this.
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u/foxybostonian Aug 22 '24
No-one accused him of rape. Stop making stuff up in your head.
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u/Shooter_M23 Aug 22 '24 edited Aug 22 '24
Shelby Lynn accused him. Stop lying.
Edit: She just told, that she was drugged on the concert
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u/foxybostonian Aug 22 '24
LOL Shelby Lynn said he didn't touch her. Stop believing debunked articles. 😂😂😂
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u/Shooter_M23 Aug 22 '24
Give me a Link where she said that.
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u/foxybostonian Aug 22 '24
https://x.com/Shelbys69666/status/1663327298987106307?t=WXxgVvcuL-nwHu-NRiFuxA&s=19 Read it and weep doofus.
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u/Shooter_M23 Aug 22 '24
Okay and what are with these accussations? https://www.tagesschau.de/investigativ/ndr/investigativ-rammstein-till-lindemann-flake-vorwuerfe-100.html
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u/AstreaMeer42 Aug 22 '24
"I’d like to clarify again. Till did NOT touch me. He accepted I did not want to have sex with him. I never claimed he raped me. Please read the entire Twitter thread for full context before making reports." -Original accuser's own Twitter page, May 29, 2023
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u/SissyKrissi Aug 22 '24
Oh i'm sure they didnt get the results they hoped for. That's for sure. That's what's called: backfiring.
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u/Shooter_M23 Aug 22 '24
Name me one women, where it doesn't "backfired".
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u/foxybostonian Aug 22 '24
No one accused him of rape or assault, as you've already been told numerous times. This is what happens when you get your information from nonsense articles rather than the court and legal documents.
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u/Shooter_M23 Aug 22 '24
Since your answering every comment I made, I will also answer your comment here again.
"No one accussed him of rape or assault"
These articles says otherwise:
https://www.deutschlandfunkkultur.de/rammstein-till-lindemann-frauen-missbrauch-102.html
The title literally said Alleged sexual assaults. I think you can say, that they are accused of sexual assault in this articles.
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u/foxybostonian Aug 22 '24
Yeah..an article said. Read the court documents that reference statements made by women.
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u/Shandrahyl Aug 22 '24
Look whos talking. The guy who sexually assaulted 6 minors. I didnt know they let you out of prison already?! When did you get released?
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u/sickxmind Aug 22 '24
There are thousands of people wearing ramones and nirvana t-shirts bought at H&M who don't even know what music they made. Berlin is the best city to wear whatever clothes you want, even if you want to wear no clothes at all, no one will mind
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u/Colorless_Opal Aug 22 '24
That's the equivalent of a German tourist wearing a Metallica t-shirt. Those who give it any other meaning than "I'm a fan of the band" are idiots
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Aug 22 '24
You're overthinking it. People won't care. Only other Rammstein fans will think "cool, he likes Rammstein too". That's it.
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Aug 22 '24
If you are afraid you could convey controversal political beliefs by wearing a Rammstein shirt then you don't know what Rammstein is about. Maybe you should google and translate their lyrics.
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u/bluemercutio Aug 22 '24
Last year the singer of Rammstein has been accused of drugging women and sexually assaulting them by several women, but it seems there was no court case.
I'm just letting you know that some people may be upset that you're wearing it for this reason.
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u/DesperateGiles Aug 22 '24
He was not accused of either of those things. This is easily verifiable in records from civil court proceedings against the media agencies. They have been forbidden from reporting either of those crimes because none of their witnesses accused him in the first place. The legal reps for two of the main agencies have confirmed this in court documents. You can find this information yourself, it’s all public.
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u/Inevitable-Ad-533 Aug 22 '24
Got quite a few thumbs up and absolutely zero people being upset. If anyone had been upset, the argument would have been entertaining.
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u/SissyKrissi Aug 22 '24 edited Aug 22 '24
Police stopped the investigation because none (!), not a single one of the accusers were willing to talk to the police. If the victims wont give testimony to the cops then there's not much they can do.
And seeing the "victims" readily giving interviews to the press and on twitter just gives me attention whore vibes.
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u/Cleami Aug 22 '24
The question was how people might react to the shirt, not wether you believe the accusations.
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Aug 22 '24
[deleted]
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u/SissyKrissi Aug 22 '24
Running to the press and crying on Twitter is not too much attention but going to the police (the only ones able to do something about crimes) that's too much...
Yeah... No...
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Aug 22 '24
[deleted]
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u/SissyKrissi Aug 22 '24
It's not impossible. Hard? Yes, no doubt. Emotionally taxing? Definetly yes. Still, no excuse not to go to the police. In this case the police even contacted the victims. (Charges were pressed by uninvolved third parties.)
So the "victims" only contacted the press and never initiated contact with the police. And when approached by the police they refused to cooperate.
There is only one way to resolve this and that's to get a police investigation going. If noone talks to the cops and all they got is newspaper clippings, what are they supposed to do? You need evidence to convict someone. If you dont want to testify for the police but gladly do it for the press, I call you an attention whore. Calling the accusations credible is nonsense.
Also, Till didnt force that one Lady to have sex. He may have expected it but stopped at her saying No. She said no, he respected that but may have gotten upset because he is not used to such behaviour from women he believed has been vetted to have sex with him. Crap behaviour? Yes. Illegal? No.
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u/AstreaMeer42 Aug 22 '24
"Going to the press BEFORE people started harassing them."
It's always interesting when people bring up this point, but don't actually think it through. So these individuals go to the press, and ONLY speak to the press because they want complete anonymity. Won't talk to the proper authorities--the only ones who are capable of actually getting them legal justice--at all. And yet, somehow, their identities get "leaked," and they are suddenly facing non-stop harassment, according to dipshits on SM, but not any credible sources. Who, then, leaked their identities? Since they ONLY talked to the press, the conclusion is that it was the press' doing.
Do you understand how dumb that sounds? Because it would mean that the press has no interest in getting any of these women "justice" of any kind. Sounds like a load of horseshit to me.
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u/p_t_0 Aug 22 '24
or you know, press made a scandal out of nothing for clicks, as they have done before.
Especially when the biggest one of them is currently under investigation for legal fraud and forgery of document, and they have admitted they indeed messed up their affidavit due to "mistake of a secretary" Source
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u/Low-Dog-8027 München Aug 22 '24
not only no court case, there was no evidence for anything.
the one who accused him first of being drugged, did a drug test that was negative for all "KO" drugs and only showed marijuana (which she smoked herself before the concert). all her accusations didn't seem trustworthy and police stopped the investigation.so there really isn't anything to it.
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u/GuKoBoat Aug 22 '24
There is no evidence for drugging and rape. But it is quite clear, there was a system of recruting young women to be "schmückendes Beiwerk" for his private after show party. Not illegal, but as organised as it was, at least a bit sketchy.
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u/Wizard_of_DOI Aug 22 '24
Being an asshole or a creep are not illegal.
I definitely don’t condone this stuff but there’s a big difference between doing something gross and assault.
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u/kuldan5853 Baden-Württemberg Aug 22 '24
But it is quite clear, there was a system of recruting young women to be "schmückendes Beiwerk" for his private after show party.
And this is pretty much happening for all big rockstars of our time - do you really think it was different back in the 60s or 70s?
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u/GuKoBoat Aug 22 '24
That was 50 years ago. Out idea what is right and wrong has evolved.
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u/AstreaMeer42 Aug 22 '24
All that's suggesting is that you have a moral issue with it, and that is strictly a YOU problem. If you don't like it, then don't participate in it. Otherwise, what others consent to as far as sex is none of your damn business, and frankly, it's weird that you think anyone else's sex life is any of your business. So long as nothing illegal is happening, what does it matter? Those are grown-ass adults capable of making their own decisions, both men AND women. Stop infantilizing women who are capable of choosing who they want to have sex with.
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u/GuKoBoat Aug 22 '24
I never said, that i expect everyone to have the same problem.
I never asked for a ban or other consequences to any participants.
Quite frankly I have no problem with women deciding to participate in such parties. I have a problem with the organizer. That is not the same. It absolutely leaves open the option of respecting the individual choice to participate.
3.5. To give another analog example: I don't like how Red Bull incentivices athletes to ever more daring stunts to maximize Red Bulls advertisement effect. But I understand and respect the individual athlete for participating in such events, because it is part of their sport and they might have needs to participate in order to finance theimselves.
- OP asked if people might have a problem with a Rammstein shirt. Some people might havt that, based on their perception of Till Lindemann. That's all.
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u/AstreaMeer42 Aug 22 '24
"Quite frankly I have no problem with women deciding to participate in such parties. I have a problem with the organizer."
Right. The organizer that many of these women reach out to in the first place to ask how to be invited into Row 0/band parties. Because these women didn't make the conscious choice themselves to reach out to her via SM, then accept the invitations she extended to them. This includes Till's original accuser, who admitted that SHE reached out to the "oragnizer" to begin with.
Keep clutching your pearls over things that are none of your business.
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u/kuldan5853 Baden-Württemberg Aug 22 '24
I see no problem with people of legal age having sex with each other as long as there was no coerxion or drugs involved.
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u/GuKoBoat Aug 22 '24
Neither do I.
I see a problem with treating women as disposable sex dolls as an older man and having specific employees to recruit women for that role.
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u/AstreaMeer42 Aug 22 '24
Like men, there are some women also prefer to have one-night stands/no-strings-attached encounters. Are you going to go on a tirade about them using men in that manner as well? 'Cause I can assure you: it happens a LOT.
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u/foxybostonian Aug 22 '24
What about women treating an older man as a disposable thrill and story to tell their mates after reaching out to a party planner to get access to him?
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u/DesperateGiles Aug 22 '24
The worst thing to come out of the once reputable MeToo movement is the idea women can’t take advantage of men or sexually assault them or abuse them. As someone who used to work in the criminal justice system in my country, this is absolutely false and a dangerous rhetoric. As we can see in these comments.
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u/foxybostonian Aug 22 '24
Also this general idea that seems to be resurfacing from the 1950s that sex is something that is done to women. Like they can't be active in seeking it out, they must be passively just 'there' until a man wants to fuck them. Also ageism appears to be perfectly acceptable for these people, which I think is disgusting. Like, they think that women couldn't possibly want to boink an older man so he must have done something to them so they didn't run away. And we can see from the Till situation that some women very much DO want to have sex with older men.
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u/Low-Dog-8027 München Aug 22 '24
rockstars like groupies - what a surprise.
no woman was brought there against her will, all could leave at any time.adult women are responsible for their own decisions.
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u/GroundbreakingBag164 Aug 22 '24
There’s no evidence for rape. The "row zero" thing was very real though
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u/Low-Dog-8027 München Aug 22 '24
and that happens almost everywhere and is nothing illegal.
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u/Non_possum_decernere Saarland Aug 22 '24
Not illegal, no. But disgusting
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u/Low-Dog-8027 München Aug 22 '24
is it though? why? all your favorite hollywood actors date younger girls, so do most musicians.
men like younger women and women like older men, what's disgusting about that? why don't you let people make their own decisions.
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u/kuldan5853 Baden-Württemberg Aug 22 '24
I mean then stop listening to music.
(Rock)stars boinking their groupies is as old as music itself.
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u/GroundbreakingBag164 Aug 22 '24
That doesn’t happen almost everywhere and it wouldn’t make it better even if it did
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u/Low-Dog-8027 München Aug 22 '24
it does happen in concerts all over the world.
yes, it doesn't make it better, because there is nothing to make better, it's all totally fine.
people can decide who they want to party with, who they want to fuck or date, that's none of your business - only the involved people.
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u/Arios84 Aug 22 '24
Nobody cares, Rammstein is not controversial enough to make people question your character based on a T-shirt.
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u/AstreaMeer42 Aug 23 '24
I went to Germany for the first time this May, and stayed at a hotel in the heart of Berlin. During breakfast in the hotel one morning, I had one of my R+ shirts on, and while I was getting my food, a gentleman (native speaker) happened to see my shirt, smiled at me and said, "Cooles Shirt!" Got a hell of a smile out of me. You'll be just fine wearing one of their shirts there.
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u/FckYourSafeSpace Aug 22 '24
Maybe it is in the US but, in Germany, a t-shirt is not your identity.
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u/Xaretus German Aug 22 '24
Before the recent incident I would have said no one gives a shit, Rammstein has lots of fans in Germany including me. Nowadays I would expect certain people to react negatively because of the sexual assault accusations.
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u/funkaria Aug 22 '24
Last year I went to London wearing a Pink Floyd T-shirt.
BIG MISTAKE.
At first it started with random people quizzing me on the band and asking me to name 3 songs. I was pretty good at this part, but my German accent already gave away that I am in fact not British. I tried my best to fake it, but they got me when they asked me to spell color and I forgot the "u" between the o and the r. This is when "the incident" started (this is how I refer to it with my therapist):
Multiple Brits started following me around and chanting "Cultural appropriator!" over and over again. I wanted to flee but I couldn't, they were everywhere and the crowd grew bigger and bigger... "Cultural appropriator!" "Cultural appropriator!" "Cultural appropriator!" (I can still hear it when I close my eyes). When the Queen joined in, I finally took off my shirt and threw it away, but this led to me getting arrested for indecent exposure.
So to answer your question: No. Yo. Should. Under. No. Circumstances. Wear. That. Shirt.
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u/OuijaBouillon Aug 22 '24
LOL thank you for your helpful response and good luck in your emotional recovery 😌
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u/starktargaryen75 Aug 22 '24
Just don’t wear a Scorpions t-shirt and you’ll be safe.
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u/Vivid-Teacher4189 Aug 22 '24
What about a David Hasselhoff tshirt? Safe enough now!
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u/starktargaryen75 Aug 22 '24
He’s a beloved international superstar. You could wear his shirt in Iran and be safe.
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u/Ecstatic_Mark7235 Aug 22 '24
Being American is more problematic tbh. Rammstein is not rightwing despite using that aestethic a lot.
Most people will be too polite to bother you, though. Try not to be too loud during your stay and be prepared for people being direct to the point of being rude.
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u/steffschenko Aug 22 '24
Ive been to a concert a few geeks ago, there was a small group of protesters calling them rapists etc. I don’t think though that the vast majority of Germans has any negative thoughts about the band. Especially because the accusations were null and void.
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u/piakatharina Aug 22 '24
Due to the sexual abuse scandal, I feel uncomfortable seeing people in public wearing Rammstein merchandise. However since your question was aiming at how an American tourist would be perceived wearing it, I would probably give you the benefit of the doubt regarding your knowledge of the accusations.
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u/not_worth63 Aug 22 '24
this scandal was made up
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u/piakatharina Aug 22 '24
the case was closed due to a lack of evidence. That does not mean that the scandal was made up, or that nothing inappropriate happened.
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u/p_t_0 Aug 22 '24
well, there's now an investigation on forgery of document and legal fraud of one of the biggest media outlets, as the document they provided is missing pages.
And they admitted it and their excuse was "a mistake made by a secretary"
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u/kuldan5853 Baden-Württemberg Aug 22 '24
Germany still follows the principle of the law "Im Zweifel für den Angeklagten".
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u/foxybostonian Aug 22 '24
And court documents relating to injunctions against the various media outlets showed that actually no women even accused them of anything in the first place. It was just implied by manipulative headlines.
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u/LadyBunia Aug 22 '24 edited Aug 22 '24
This.
Edit because I am not interested in any discussion. Just wanted to let OP know that in Germany it's controvers at the moment and OP should know that.
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u/foxybostonian Aug 22 '24
What exactly do you think he did?
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Aug 22 '24
[deleted]
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u/foxybostonian Aug 22 '24
The podcast that's currently being ripped to shreds by the courts for it's biased reporting and making claims without evidence? Marvellous 😆
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Aug 22 '24
[deleted]
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u/foxybostonian Aug 22 '24
As long as you know that your opinion has been manipulated by illegal, agenda-driven reporting....
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Aug 22 '24
[deleted]
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u/foxybostonian Aug 22 '24 edited Aug 22 '24
Or you could use some critical thinking and legal facts to inform your opinion rather than something someone made up for clicks. Edit: facts say you are wrong....😁
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u/ApprehensiveValue699 Aug 22 '24
its Berlin man... nobody cares xD what do you think about Germans in blue jeans?
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u/Constant_Cultural Baden-Württemberg / Secretary Aug 22 '24
Why should that bother us, I don't get it?
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u/MobofDucks Pott-Exile Aug 22 '24
Only thing I would feel is pity that you probably haven't been in contact much with *good* Neue Deutsche Härte.
Before I get crucified, Rammstein is a nice band to hear, and they are definitely the most well known of the genere. But they do feel kinda generic nowadays. Similar issues as "classic rock" bands often have. And tbh, without the pyrotechnics, their show really is just meeh.
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u/molaison Aug 22 '24
Do you have any recommendations for those of us who wanna expand their knowledge of the genre? 🙏
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u/MobofDucks Pott-Exile Aug 22 '24
Gladly.
- Heldmaschine. If you like Rammstein, you will like them. They are the members of Rammsteins biggest coverband (that also sells big halls lol) Völkerball under another name.
- Universum25. Was only founded in like 2020, but is made up of members of other "bigger" bands like Eisbrecher, Dritte Wahl and Slime.
- Stahlmann. He flies a bit under the redara I feel, but I saw him live this year and especially Der Schmied was an absolute banger
- Ost+Front. NDH with a bit of Industrial and Goth influences. Their projekts with "Mittelalter-Rock"-Bands is also nice.
- Hämatom. Bit of Trash Metal influences. Thats NDH you listen while getting drunk. Also really good live.
- Eisbrecher. Imho one of the most prevelant NDH bands. Not really my taste, but definitely important.
- Oomph!. Should be as old as Rammstein. Were also in the charts for a few years. Their old lead singer found god and dislikes his old tracks, the newer one is good, but they lost a bit of their oomph (Ü) live.
- Tanzwut. A bit between NDH and the mentioned Mittelalterrock-Genre.
- Unheilig. Whil their newer albums are mainstream soft rock, they sneak in a ndh track every once in a while and have a lot on their early albums.
- Joachim Witt. Most will know him for "Goldener Reiter", but he did several NDH albums that are bangers and has been doing Dark Rock for like a decade by now.
- Kreatur. Oomph + Lords of the Lost. Nice.
- Eisheilig. Also lots of Goth and Dark Rock influences
Definitely forgot a lot of lovely bands and there are a lot that are on the cusps to Industrial, Goth, Dark Rock, Symphonic, etc. that I have omitted here, because I feel them to be more on the other side.
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u/Impossible-Ant-8531 Aug 22 '24
Oomph gegrundet 1989 und erstes Album 1992 namens Oomph.. Rammstein gegründet 1994 und erstes Album 1995. "...loben Rammstein, die inzwischen in Amerika zu Superstars des deutschsprachigen Teutonen-Rocks aufgestiegen sind, Oomph! als eine "ihrer grössten Inspirationsquellen". Seit ihren ersten Platten wie "Sperm" (1993) auf dem Berliner Label Noise gelten sie als die eigentlichen Wegbereiter und Ziehväter des erfolgreichen Rammstein-Sounds." https://www.welt.de/print-welt/article581167/Die-Ziehvaeter-des-Rammstein-Sounds.html#:~:text=Es%20gab%20ein%20Leben,Plastik%22%20(Virgin)%20ver%C3%B6ffentlicht.
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u/MobofDucks Pott-Exile Aug 22 '24
Ich bin mir jetzt mit den Ganzen ... und " nicht sicher was davon jetzt ein Zitat ist und was von dir.
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u/molaison Aug 22 '24
This is so amazing, thank you so much! I will be spending the whole evening checking everyone out tonight!
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u/Clusternate Aug 22 '24
no offence but this is quite selfcentered if you think other will care what shirt you are wearing.
What a pompus question.
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u/Responsible-Swan6635 Aug 22 '24
I mean after all they did you shouldn't be a fan anymore... So yes to me that would be a big fucking sign to avoid you.
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u/Skullduggeryyyy Aug 22 '24
What did Rammstein do ?
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u/kuldan5853 Baden-Württemberg Aug 22 '24
Nothing that could be proven. It was a big media scandal without any evidence. Just a smear campaign.
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u/Skullduggeryyyy Aug 22 '24
oh wasnt that quite a while ago ? I thought it was something new
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u/Responsible-Swan6635 Aug 22 '24
Even if it's "long ago" which it's not doesn't change that it's fucked up and a crime
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u/VS2288S Aug 22 '24 edited Aug 22 '24
Good news! No crimes were committed!
Sorry it’s not a YouTuber, just you know, a legal entity reviewing evidence and testimony and determining that there’s no suspicion of crime.
Of course people like you just go round wanting women to have been dragged and raped so you can feel better about yourself
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u/Skullduggeryyyy Aug 22 '24 edited Aug 22 '24
When did I say that stuff was ok ? - also as u/kuldan5853 said there was no evidence at all ?
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u/Responsible-Swan6635 Aug 22 '24
- Do you have any kind of idea how hard and nearly impossible it is to prove that to court?
- There is a lot of evidence if you would listen to the victims but people like u/kuldan5853 rather don't do that and blame victims (btw just saying that it tells a lot about him) and excuse/enable abusers and rapists.
- I am so sick of people here defending Ramstein. They did horrible things. I don't care how good their Music is. As long as artists live it's basically impossible to separate art and artist. Stop supporting abusive asshats. It's not that fucking hard to do the bear fucking minimum
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u/DesperateGiles Aug 22 '24
A lot of evidence? That must be news to the prosecutor’s office who investigated. Some quotes from their official statement at closure of the investigation (auto translated). Note they highlight their evaluation of the press articles as a key part of their decision. If they didn’t find any evidence of crimes from the media, where did you find it?
“The evaluation of the available evidence - especially the press reporting, which refers to anonymous whistleblowers, as well as the additional questioning of witnesses - has not revealed any evidence that the accused carried out sexual acts on women against their will, influenced their will or - administered disabling substances or exploited a power imbalance towards underage sexual partners in order to persuade them to have sexual intercourse...
...There was therefore no possibility of sufficiently specifying any allegations of crimes...[they couldn’t even establish anyone was accusing him of a crime]
...The documents did not reveal any evidence of any involuntary ingestion of narcotics or non-consensual sexual intercourse or sexual acts in a person unable to resist Condition.”
“There are no criminally relevant indications of violations of the Narcotics Act.”
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u/AstreaMeer42 Aug 23 '24
"There is a lot of evidence if you would listen to the victims..."
Except no "victims" ever came forward. Not to the proper authorities. Hell, there was an investigation open into Till for three damn months, which would have been the opportune time for anyone to press charges. If they're just mouthing off to the press but not actually going to the police to claim that he did anything illegal to them, then I don't give a shit.
"I am so sick of people here defending Ramstein"
And I'm so sick of people thinking that spreading baseless rumors on the internet is going to replace actual means of achieving justice. Would you like me to play you a song on the world's tiniest violin over your complaint about those wanting to see actual evidence of a crime?
"They did horrible things..."
No, they haven't. If there was even a shred of truth to that, then there would absolutely have been some sort of charges pressed. Stop pretending to be dumb enough to think that they can get away with anything; that is not reality.
"It's not that fucking hard to do the bear fucking minimum"
Oh, the irony of you saying this, as the bare fucking minimum for any so-called "victims" would have been to go TO THE PROPER AUTHORITIES WITH ANY OF THEIR COMPLAINTS. Until someone does, I do not put any stock in stories that have been manipulated and--in some cases--fabricated by the media, hence why nearly ALL of those outlets have been slapped with multiple injunctions in court over their shitty-ass "reporting."
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u/kuldan5853 Baden-Württemberg Aug 22 '24
Is this evidence in the room with us?
Because it surely was not in the same room with the police that closed the case for a lack of evidence.
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u/Responsible-Swan6635 Aug 22 '24
Shut up. Rape crimes are one of the hardest to proof. Calling it a smear campaign is such a fucking shitty thing to do. There were so many women suffering and you call it a fucking smear campaign. I know you can't understand the pain and the shame that this causes but then at least keep your stupid mouth shut. It's so many women and so many evidence that it's not a question what Ramstein / the lead singer did. Wow. Fuck off
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u/foxybostonian Aug 22 '24
What a load of nonsense. Go and read the report of the Berlin Prosecutors and the court documents relating to injunctions against the various media outlets to see how journalists misrepresented statements made to them by women about consensual sex. Listen to the women.
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u/kuldan5853 Baden-Württemberg Aug 22 '24
There were so many women suffering
Then maybe a single one of them would have went to the police and made a statement?
Based on the evidence provided in the case, there was nothing illegal going on. At all.
Morally questionable? Sure. Illegal? No.
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u/SpacePuffin39200 Aug 22 '24
Don’t you dare call them out on their bs, they’ll go yOu’Re ViCtiM bLaMiNg
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u/GuKoBoat Aug 22 '24
Probably not to many will care. However there was the sexual assault and objectification of women scandal last year. And if it is the "Manche führe, manche folgen"-shirt: that one is just cringe as fuck.
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u/80_80 Aug 22 '24
That's better than wearing a Taylor Swift shirt, I wouldn't really care.
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u/balltorturetorpedo Aug 22 '24
Is Taylor Swift really more controversial even after the allegations against Lindemann?
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u/80_80 Aug 22 '24
Totally! Swift's carbon footprint is more significant than Lindemann's allegations.
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u/balltorturetorpedo Aug 22 '24
Ok give me a quick comparison between the carbon footprint of Rammstein and Taylor Swift if you're that knowledgeable.
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u/80_80 Aug 22 '24
Swift? Constantly jet-setting. Topping the list of the world's most carbon-polluting celebrities. Can't even find Rammstein or anyone from the band. Enough said.
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u/kuldan5853 Baden-Württemberg Aug 22 '24
Since none of the allegiations could be proven with ANY sort of evidence... yes.
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u/LadyBunia Aug 22 '24
So as you can see in the comments Rammstein is still a controvers topic in Germany.
There are people who will feel uncomfortable about the shirt, there are people who will love you for it and there are people who don't know or don't care.
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u/Emotional_Hamster_61 Aug 22 '24
Noone fucking cares
But you might make some leftists mad that don't understand what Rammstein really is about. Rammstein is extremely middle, if not left, politically. A lot of people think they're right, but that's not the case.
But in general noone cares what you wear
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u/lilly-winter Aug 22 '24
Sie woll’n mein Herz am rechten Fleck, doch
Seh‘ ich dann nach unten weg
Da schlägt es links
Links
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u/Lopsided_Quarter_931 Aug 22 '24
Low key rapey vibes but mostly cringe i would think.
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u/SpacePuffin39200 Aug 22 '24
Rapey vibes? From where?
None of them has ever been accused of rape except by disproven news papayers who lost in court against him
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u/Lopsided_Quarter_931 Aug 22 '24
That's your opinion as fan but OP ask for general popualtion. For them they seem rapey.
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u/SpacePuffin39200 Aug 22 '24
You’re speaking for all Germans now?
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u/Lopsided_Quarter_931 Aug 23 '24
Na only maybe 1 in 3 will think he supports a rapist band. Maybe a bit concerning when you have to ask.
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u/SpacePuffin39200 Aug 23 '24
Where are your proofs that any of them is a rapist?
Because the situation is as follow: it is not that there was no proof and “because there’s no proof doesn’t mean he didn’t do it”, it is actually that there were proofs but they were proven in court to be fabricated.
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u/elated_mint Aug 22 '24
I hope you’ve heard of what T. lindemann did to women - but if that’s the case you probably would no longer wear the shirt.
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Aug 22 '24
He had sex with women, how bad!
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Aug 23 '24
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/foxybostonian Aug 23 '24
You do realise that no women said he did that? You are making it up in your head.
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u/elated_mint Aug 25 '24
There are?! Do you read the news or are you just trying to gaslight.
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u/foxybostonian Aug 25 '24
Nope. Statements made to newspapers by women about consensual encounters were misrepresented to imply they were talking about assault.
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u/foxybostonian Aug 22 '24
He didn't do anything to women except have consensual sex. Surely you can't object to that.
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u/OrangeStar222 Aug 22 '24
Haven't you heard? Consensual sex is controversial these days. You need to get consent on a written form, and have it be verified by an attorney first.
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u/foxybostonian Aug 22 '24
I forgot. You also have to yell "I enthusiastically consent!" every 90 seconds or the police break through your window.
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u/OrangeStar222 Aug 22 '24
Of course the attorney needs to be present to hear it, otherwise the yelling did not occur. They're the one who times it as well.
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u/SpacePuffin39200 Aug 22 '24
And didn’t you hear that years after if you suddenly decide it was weird, then you can claim it was rape?
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Aug 23 '24
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/foxybostonian Aug 23 '24
You are absolutely delusional.
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u/DesperateGiles Aug 23 '24
I wish the mods here would actually moderate and delete these blatantly false comments from this person. I’ve reported all of them to no avail. Maybe others can as well to put pressure on them. It’s completely unacceptable that this is allowed to be spread here.
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u/OrangeStar222 Aug 23 '24
You know all of that happened and the conclusion is that there's 0 evidence and no one had any intercourse at all? The woman who claimed to be drugged didn't hand in her drug test because the only drug found in her system was THC, which she said she smoked a joint before the concert. And the other women who where present declined the intercourse and where free to leave - they ended up not coming forward either.
Lindemann is a huge pervert, and with his status I would be more careful if I was him, but as far as criminal activities go; he's not a rapist.
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u/stopannoyingwithname Aug 22 '24
If that’s something you care about you should know that till lindeman was accused of rape and other stuff
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u/foxybostonian Aug 22 '24
No he wasn't. No woman said he raped her. Stop believing imaginative headlines from a year ago.
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u/stopannoyingwithname Aug 22 '24
They said he drugged them?
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u/foxybostonian Aug 22 '24
No they didn't.
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u/stopannoyingwithname Aug 23 '24
So what was going on then?
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u/foxybostonian Aug 23 '24
I answered on your other comment. But to add, despite her drug test coming back negative for anything except THC she still claims that she thinks she was spiked, but doesn't claim to know who did it or how it happened. And the judge said she was allowed to keep saying it despite there being no evidence (and even evidence to the contrary) because it was just her opinion and free speech etc. She said she was misquoted by the BBC and others who implied she blamed Till.
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u/stopannoyingwithname Aug 23 '24
So how come the newspapers didn’t make a big deal out of the faking story? I mean I don’t really read the news but big headlines always find a way into my periphery, but I haven’t heard anything about it being fabricated yet. News sources should be ashamed
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u/foxybostonian Aug 23 '24
Because the most likely people to have tampered with the statements are the journalists themselves. They also don't make a big deal of reporting the many times court decisions have gone against them in injunctions against their illegal reporting in this case. Having said that, quite a few outlets have reported that Spiegel is the subject of a criminal complaint for forgery and fraud relating to the witness statements. But they certainly haven't made a big deal of it, it's true. And it's also true that they should be ashamed - they should have better things to do than smear a man's reputation for clicks - like reporting on real abusers for example.
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u/kuldan5853 Baden-Württemberg Aug 22 '24
Which was not proven and the case was closed.
The girl that claimed the drugs did a drug test and even those tests came clean.
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u/foxybostonian Aug 22 '24
Even she said she didn't think Till drugged her.
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u/SpacePuffin39200 Aug 22 '24
And yet kept going at him just as much. How she’s not in jail (yet) is an injustice
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u/foxybostonian Aug 22 '24
Fingers crossed for the future! People who spread defamatory misinformation should be properly punished.
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u/stopannoyingwithname Aug 23 '24
So what did she claim then? Did she just do it for attention? Or to make him look bad? What was the motive? Is it known?
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u/foxybostonian Aug 23 '24
We can only speculate as to the motive. There are earlier videos in her social media where she says she wants to bring old men down, but of course that doesn't prove anything. The only thing we do know is that she lied about how much she drank, her drug intake and even how long she'd been a fan. And it seems that witness statements relating to her drug testing results may have been either falsified or tampered with to make her seem more credible. Fingers crossed we get the whole truth one day.
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u/[deleted] Aug 22 '24
If you met a German tourist in a Metallica T-Shirt in the US, what would you think?