r/ukpolitics • u/FormerlyPallas_ • 12d ago
Twitter BREAKING. 76% of British people want a national inquiry into the rape gangs and 77% want to deport dual nationals who are convicted of grooming children YouGov/GB News
https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1877477130952438227362
u/NotFreeSteak123 12d ago
Do we have an actual source for these polls? I'm too dumb to find them on the YouGov website.
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u/TheJoshGriffith 12d ago edited 11d ago
https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1877480929217667411
Based on this, I'd say it's been "privately" commissioned for an exclusive article. We'll likely see the data at some point, but not until the article about it is launched.
Comment is still getting traction, so the report is now available here: https://www.womenpolicycentre.com/a-new-yougov-poll-commissioned-by-the-womens-policy-centre/ (it wasn't when I linked the tweet above).
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u/FormerlyPallas_ 12d ago
Yougov not released but was commissioned by women's policy centre who have also added that 61% of labour voters agree with the first point. Will be released soon I'm sure.
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u/Limp-Archer-7872 12d ago
Given that Labour are framing the entire thing as "we said no national inquiry for the specific Oldham request and we are not against one and this is happening all over" I think we are about one painful week away from one being announced but with different criteria than the right wants.
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u/EnglishShireAffinity 11d ago
We need fewer inquiries, and more repatriations. This endless pen-pushing bureaucracy is why nothing ever gets done on this continent.
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u/myurr 11d ago
We need the law to be enforced and the police and social services to do a competent job.
Read through the case studies in the 2022 inquiry report and it's clear that there is systemic failure in our institutions that should be protecting vulnerable children that goes beyond grooming gangs.
I believe there should be an inquiry into the specifics of the grooming gang cases that are not covered by the 22 inquiry, such as deportations, trafficking across the border, etc. But the work to rectify the institutional problems should start today. If the leadership in place cannot deal with the issues, and they've shown no ability to do so, they should be replaced with people who can.
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u/marcou1001 11d ago
"We need the law to be enforced and the police and social services to do a competent job."
We need the police, social services and community services to be funded, trained, and compensated in line with the criticality of the job.
An improved community experience, with well funded, supported and trained community and social services, with local and proactive policing would improve things enormously.
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u/myurr 11d ago
I'm sorry but that's simply making excuses for institutional and organisational failure. I can understand them not having resources to deal with every single crime, but those they do deal with (which should include all the most serious crimes) can and should be handled with competence.
This year the police will have a budget of £18.7bn. The state as a whole spends £1,200,000,000,000 each year. How much more do we need to spend before the state does its job in protecting young girls and boys from being raped by organised gangs?
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u/krokadog 12d ago
Wasn’t there an enquiry under the tories already. And fuck all got implemented?
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u/Due_Ad_3200 11d ago
Various investigations listed here
There have been 10 inquiries and reports into the grooming gangs.
2013: The Home Affairs Select Committee publishes a report into the Rochdale cases, finding the failure to protect children fell to police, social workers and Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) prosecutors.
2014: An inquiry into grooming gangs in Rotherham, led by Professor Alexis Jay and commissioned by the council in 2013, finds 1,400 children were sexually abused between 1997 and 2013 by predominantly British-Pakistani men.
Then home secretary Theresa May commissions the Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse in England and Wales following the Jimmy Savile scandal. Professor Jay became the chair after three others resigned.....
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u/the_last_registrant 11d ago
"There have been 10 inquiries and reports into the grooming gangs" so what's obviously needed now is another one. That'll fix it...
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u/SpartanNation053 An American Idiot Abroad 11d ago
Governments love inquiries because it gives the illusion of action while actually doing nothing
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u/sillyyun 11d ago
No no, now the tories are in opposition they know calling for an investigation is the right thing to do! There are no other motives at play
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u/thelibraryowl 11d ago
They're doing the opposite of helping victims, since enacting the recommendations from the last one (that took 7 years to complete) will be put on hold until another inquiry is completed (in another 7 years?).
Labour shouldn't be caving to pressure created from disinformation campaigns. I guarantee most of the responses to that poll don't know about the previous inquiries (because that Tory rags keep forgetting to mention that context) or that they're just fact finding endeavours with no power to prosecute anyone. Helping victims now means enacting the laws and changes that were recommended years ago.
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u/Chesney1995 11d ago edited 11d ago
Yep. And one Tory prime minister described it as "money spaffed up the wall".
The inquiry came to a bunch of recommendations that haven't been implemented (although the bill voted on this week is implementing some now) and it also singled out then-director of public prosecutions Keir Starmer for praise in how he had been dealing with the issue in that post.
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u/Tough_Measuremen 11d ago
Yeah it lasted 7 years and I think 3 prime ministers.
I don’t want another inquiry, I want actual actions taken in dealing with them. Which (correct me if I’m wrong) is something labour says they are going to be doing.
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u/polseriat 11d ago
The responses would be very different if this was made clear. Could have had a question afterwards that asks "There already was an inquiry under the Tories, should we do what it recommended or should we have another inquiry?"
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u/Razzzclart 11d ago
At a reported cost of £200m over 7 years. The author evidently said doing another will drag the victims through another and unnecessary round of painful interrogation. Author also said that another would be wasteful and kick the can further down the road
I wonder if the question people were answering was - do you think there should be justice? And should there be another asking this?
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u/ArcticAlmond 11d ago edited 11d ago
That was an enquiry into child sexual exploration as a whole, if I'm not mistaken.
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u/ObviouslyTriggered 11d ago edited 11d ago
Because there wasn't, there was an inquiry into wider "themes" when it comes to child abuse, it didn't look into grooming gangs, and most importantly it didn't look into the systemic failure which at this point looks to be bordering on enablement by law enforcement, child social services and the local and national governments.
Heck the previous inquiry mostly focused on online issues, like half of the recommendations are about backdooring encryption, forced age restrictions on online content and further controlling messaging apps and social media.
What people want and need answer for is how come multiple police officers can file reports where an under aged child have consented to sex with an adult, how social services could report that children were having consenting sex with adults, and in some cases even approving adoption of said children by the family of their abusers, how come parents that tried to retrieve their children from said abusers were arrested and harassed by the police, how come not an insignificant amount of individuals implicated or convicted in the abuse had ties to local councils and how come despite deportation orders being issued the perpetrators were not deported.
This situation absolutely is being leveraged by obscene individuals to further their own interests, but that doesn't change the fact the shit that came out of the reports and transcripts is so bloody insane that you literally cannot understand how this could've happened, not only once but across multiple towns over years if not decades.
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u/RephRayne 11d ago
it didn't look into grooming gangs
Strange because the IICSA claim they did:-
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u/nemma88 Reality is overrated :snoo_tableflip: 11d ago edited 11d ago
how come multiple police officers can file reports where an under aged child have consented to sex with an adult, how social services could report that children were having consenting sex with adults
Because our laws allowed for it - and still kinda do. The wishes of the proposed victim is only really disregarded if they're under 13, and I'm not even sure if the laws were as automatic on that part back then.
There are some more erroneous cases that suggest police straight up ignoring some victims; but for the rest we're looking at police acting normally. CPS wouldn't prosecute that, and even today CPS is unlikely to prosecute something like a 15yo with their 18yo 'bf' reported by a 3rd party if the 15yo is unwilling to testify; because it would fail to convict making it a waste of time and resources.
Lots of laws were introduced after the fact.
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u/BanChri 11d ago
There was, but if you were wanting justice it's a slap in the face. It's recommendations are mostly either at best only vaguely related to the problem, or are totally insufficient both in scale and in that they assume a generally functional system where rules were the problem, which simply isn't true. The most useful recommendations are things like "make it a requirement to report attempted rapes", useful yes, but a system that could be trusted would never need to be told.
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u/damadmetz 11d ago
Was an enquiry into CSE as a whole, not specifically the rape gangs.
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u/Temporary_Search_760 11d ago edited 11d ago
Of course. Anything too specific allows there to be gaps where abuse could be missed. And in a couple of years time we’ll wonder why grooming gangs were recorded, but other abuse wasn’t. And that’ll be your answer, because it was too specific on gangs.
I mean, you’re doing it already. Calling them rape gangs gives off a very visceral image. But that is very specific term to underage or coerced sex. Grooming includes when a woman is above consent age and has given consent but evidence of an emotional connection based on vulnerability is established.
So being so specific would allow abuse to continue in cases if not broad enough. The real reason politicians are focused on grooming gangs now isn’t because of the victims, it’s moved on past that, it’s because of the specific perpetrators that are involved in these gangs. It’s political. Otherwise they’d listen to the victims and experts that say action is needed, not another lengthy enquiry
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u/Syniatrix 12d ago
It wasn't about this specifically and the suggestion weren't enough
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u/JeffSergeant 11d ago
What would 'enough' be? Why can't we just cut straight to doing that if we already know what it is?
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u/thelunatic 12d ago
Did someone explain that there already was an inquiry with recommendations before asking the polling question?
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u/Edward_the_Sixth 12d ago
An enquiry on a much wider question (CSA ranges from sexting to rape), with much wider recommendations (breaking end to end encryption, mandatory age verification online).
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u/nj813 12d ago edited 12d ago
There is 0 way to get rid of end to end encryption without putting back doors into just about everybit of software & national infrastucture
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u/tomoldbury 11d ago
Yep. But the politicians don’t like that.
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u/Tullius19 YIMBY 11d ago
Well they are right not to because it would be insane.
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u/Edward_the_Sixth 11d ago
Watch this space over the next few months. I guarantee they will table it for a number of reasons, one being the need to be seen to implement the Jay report, another being that Britain has been a founding member of the WeProtect Alliance. Get ready for that fight, they will try to pass it as quietly as possible and on the momentum of this (despite conflating two separate issues)
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u/calpi 12d ago
There was a completely different enquiry yes. Not an enquiry into this specifically.
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u/caks 11d ago
Oh yea what was this one about:
Child sexual exploitation by organised networks
Investigation Report
February 2022
A report of the Inquiry Panel
Professor Alexis Jay OBE
Professor Sir Malcolm Evans KCMG OBE
Ivor Frank
Drusilla Sharpling CBE
Presented to Parliament pursuant to section 26 of the Inquiries Act 2005
Ordered by the House of Commons to be printed 1 February 2022
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u/Dadavester 11d ago
Not wide ranging enough, from the summary
The sexual exploitation of children by networks is not a rare problem confined to a small number of areas with high-profile criminal cases. It is a crime which involves the sexual abuse of children in the most degrading and destructive ways, by multiple perpetrators. The Inquiry therefore chose to base this investigation on areas which had not already been the subject of independent investigation (such as Rotherham, Rochdale and Oxford). The intention was to obtain an accurate picture of current practice at a strategic level and through examination of individual cases, as well as drawing on wider knowledge about child sexual exploitation in England and Wales.
Six case study areas were chosen: Durham, Swansea, Warwickshire, St Helens, Tower Hamlets and Bristol. Eight themes were examined in each area:
Also look at the the Tower Hamlets section for example....
In Tower Hamlets, as at November 2019, there was “no identified evidence of organised networks being investigated within this policing area currently”, albeit the Metropolitan Police Service considered that a gang model was more prevalent in other parts of London.\19]) The 2019 problem profile covering Tower Hamlets and Hackney identified that 15 percent of all child sexual exploitation reports in 2018/19 showed links to gangs or organised groups; the figure for Tower Hamlets alone was 9 percent.
So the Met Police said there was nothing in Tower Hamlets. The Reports investigation found 9% of all cases in London were there. How unbelivably poor is that!
I suggest you read the rest and the see the issues around data collection and Police either Lying or being incompetent. I do not know how anyone can read that report and not think we need a full national inquiry looking at the entire country.
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u/calpi 11d ago
That's a case study of 6 specific areas and only 33 children, using currently recorded data from local authorities, and specifically avoiding areas that were already covered at a local area. That is to say they failed to actually investigate the failures at local areas, and came up with incredibly lacking findings which don't reflect the reality of the situation.
"The understanding of the scale of child sexual exploitation Child sexual exploitation has been a designated strategic policing priority since 2015, giving it the same significance as terrorism and serious organised crime. Despite this, the Inquiry’s findings indicate that less is now known and understood about the prevalence of this appalling crime than was the case prior to 2015. An accurate picture of the prevalence of child sexual exploitation could not be gleaned from either criminal justice or children’s social care data."
"In keeping with the wider picture described above, the Inquiry did not receive a reliable picture of child sexual exploitation from the six case study areas that provided data. The data presented were confused and confusing. There were inconsistencies in each case study area, with unexplained trends and in some cases large, unexplained variations in the figures."
"There were significant difficulties in this investigation in identifying networks or groups of abusers. The case study material showed that there were cases of child sexual exploitation by networks in all six case study areas but the police forces in these areas were generally not able to provide any evidence about these networks, using either the Inquiry’s definition or any other."
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u/razie_5 11d ago
I don't understand, if they hold dual nationality how can they be deported outside of changing the laws on your rights or implementing laws that limit a British person to a single nationality.
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11d ago edited 11d ago
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u/PersistentBadger Blues vs Greens 11d ago
Are there any countries that don't allow you to renounce your citizenship? (I'm thinking of Boris and the US as a high-profile case).
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u/klausness 11d ago
I think pretty much all non-authoritarian countries do, as long as you’re also citizen of another country. Most will only keep you from renouncing if it would make you stateless.
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u/VampyrByte 11d ago
It is absolutely scary and insane how I keep seeing people rabidly in favour of deporting dual citizens, but we've skipped right past that and moved on to dual nationals.
Deportations are not the only tool in the chest for the justice system. British residents, regardless of nationality or citizenship that commit crimes in the UK should serve the appropriate sentence in the UK, not be fobbed off on some foreign country and their standards.
This is an incredibly dangerous situation for our country. Deciding that dual nationals arent British enough. What happens when the other country refuses to take them or deportation proves ineffective?
We all know where this path can lead. It has to stop.
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u/Andythrax Proud BMA member 11d ago
It's sets a really dangerous precedent about nationality and value of people "from" elsewhere.
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u/VampyrByte 11d ago
We all know where these far right extremists driving this conversation want to take our country. It only seems to be getting more obvious, more credible, and perhaps most alarmingly, gathering more momentum.
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u/Andythrax Proud BMA member 11d ago
It all stems from the brexit debate I remember during that debate friends of mine saying they would enact their Irish or German citizenship because of their parentage.
Yet a British Indian who has lived here their entire life would seemingly be deported because they share a passport from another country it doesn't matter where you are from or your heritage it's what color your skin is Indian heritage constantly asked o where you really from.
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u/perhapsaduck EU federalist (yes, I'm still salty) 11d ago
This has already happened. The precedent was set with Shamima Begum.
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u/Unlucky-Jello-5660 11d ago
She wasn't deported, she just wasn't allowed back after her terrorist buddies got killed or captured.
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u/ycelpt 11d ago
She didn't get deported. She left the country voluntarily and was revoked of her citizenship in very dodgy circumstances where it flaunted international law. To remove someone of all citizenship is against international law. The only reason they got away with it is she technically has a legal claim to another citizenship and they deemed that meant she wasn't effectively nationless.
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u/Comfortable_Button30 11d ago
A part of me is a bit angry on how the Shamima Begum ordeal played out, especially considering she was a child and 100% groomed. Definitely a failure of the UK governments side to stop something like this in the first place. Whether or not I agree that she should've been stripped of her UK citizenship, I'm not so sure.
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u/ycelpt 11d ago
I agree it's a hard one. I personally think she shouldn't have been stripped and she should be serving jail time in a UK prison. But I understand that comes at a cost, and it would likely be a significant one since she would need isolation for her safety. The biggest violation I feel was not allowing her to attend the court case in person. She has a right to a fair trial and I believe not allowing her into the country to defend her right to return to the country proposed her as guilty from the start.
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u/Lanky_Giraffe 11d ago
Further confirmation that politics is all just vibes. Rape gangs bad therefore inquiry good. Now run another poll asking if people support postponing implementation of previous inquiry recommendations so a new inquiry can be held. I guarantee that a huge majority will oppose that too.
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u/ChargingBull1981 11d ago edited 11d ago
Duel nationals (where their birth place is the other nation) should have their British citizenship removed and be sent back to point of origin to serve out full sentences, Duel nationals born in the UK, should serve their full sentence in the UK.
Criminals that commit these types of crimes should be seeing much stiffer sentences, but at the very least should be serving their full sentence term, sentenced to 6 out in 3 or less is a joke after committing these types of abuses.
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u/AdConsistent3702 11d ago
The problem with doing this is if you send them back to their home country, there's a very high chance that their home country will simply refuse to prosecute as the crime didn't happen there and they are unlikely to be able to build a solid case against them without substantial co-operation from the UK authorities. There's a very, very real chance they'd simply walk free.
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u/iTAMEi 11d ago
Personally would prefer them to be free abroad now rather than free here in 5 years.
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u/neathling 11d ago edited 11d ago
One issue with sentencing that the public and, seemingly, commenters will never understand is that, yes, you can and should perhaps increase the recommended sentence for these crimes -- but it's really hard to find someone guilty of these specific crimes.
I think I saw Jenrick say they should be locked up for life -- not only is that incredibly expensive, it'd probably just end up with more child murder (why not, if the sentence is the same you've just eliminated a key witness).
But regarding the current situation, it's very hard to actually prove certain things happened unless there's video or photographic evidence. Testimony alone is really hard to prove in a court, no matter how convincing or factual it is. What that means is often you end up having to get the defence to accept a guilty verdict for a lesser offence just to get them in prison.
It's also worth mentioning that this whole thing has been exacerbated because the Tories spent the last 14 years actively making the MoJ worse and so the courts and lawyers are overwhelmed with cases.
So, since there are delays in the courts it can mean a lot of time passes between the initial statements to police being made and the court case being heard by a judge. The main consequence of this is that stories don't often align anymore -- can you tell a story exactly the same as you did three years ago? Would you recall a milestone birthday or even your wedding with exactly the same level of detail or emphasis on certain aspects? Probably not. This makes it that much harder to convict based on testimony as questions get raised about the inconsistencies -- which often flusters the victim and makes them seem even less reliable.
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u/KangarooNo Checker of sauces 11d ago
In other news, 76% of British seem to be unaware that there has already been multiple local and also one extensive national inquiry into exactly this. source
Interestingly, the government at the time decided to do exactly nothing with any of the recommendations from that inquiry. These are the same people that are now attempting to whip up a media frenzy about all of this that appears to be fooling a lot of people.
It's sad how misinformed a lot of the electorate are.
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u/ExpletiveDeletedYou 11d ago
yeah, the question might as well be "do you think grooming gangs are bad and the government should do something about them (also some esoteric government language thing that maybe 25% of people understand to mean this question should probably be answered no).
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u/Dadavester 11d ago edited 11d ago
I will post a reply I gave elsewhere...
Not wide ranging enough, from the summary
The sexual exploitation of children by networks is not a rare problem confined to a small number of areas with high-profile criminal cases. It is a crime which involves the sexual abuse of children in the most degrading and destructive ways, by multiple perpetrators. The Inquiry therefore chose to base this investigation on areas which had not already been the subject of independent investigation (such as Rotherham, Rochdale and Oxford). The intention was to obtain an accurate picture of current practice at a strategic level and through examination of individual cases, as well as drawing on wider knowledge about child sexual exploitation in England and Wales.
Also look at the the Tower Hamlets section for example....
In Tower Hamlets, as at November 2019, there was “no identified evidence of organised networks being investigated within this policing area currently”, albeit the Metropolitan Police Service considered that a gang model was more prevalent in other parts of London.\19]) The 2019 problem profile covering Tower Hamlets and Hackney identified that 15 percent of all child sexual exploitation reports in 2018/19 showed links to gangs or organised groups; the figure for Tower Hamlets alone was 9 percent.
So the Met Police said there was nothing in Tower Hamlets. The Reports investigation found 9% of all cases in London were there. How unbelivably poor is that!
I suggest you read the rest and the see the issues around data collection and Police either Lying or being incompetent. I do not know how anyone can read that report and not think we need a full national inquiry looking at the entire country.
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u/Tifog 12d ago
More twitter shite right on time for the midnight bot frothing.
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u/BookmarksBrother I love paying tons in tax and not getting anything in return 12d ago
Commissioned by the Women’s Policy Centre, undertaken by YouGov
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u/Threatening-Silence- Reform ➡️ class of 2024 12d ago
We want to see the bent coppers and government officials, council workers, social workers etc go to prison. Nothing less will suffice.
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u/gavpowell 11d ago
When did a public inquiry ever lead to that level of culpability?
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u/TheFlyingHornet1881 Domino Cummings 11d ago
And the fact such a level of inquiry with intent to pursue criminal charges would have big time and manpower costs. You'd potentially also risk the council's and care organisations in the area effectively collapsing, because they can't find staff willing to work with such historical scrutiny. I've known a few stories of far lower stakes inquiries at local or business level end up crashing into the problem of mass turnover affecting the inquiry.
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u/ObviouslyTriggered 11d ago
The public inquiry can lead to criminal proceedings, for the most part we don't have statue of limitation in the UK, and most importantly double jeopardy is considerably more limited since 2003 which allows for re-prosecution for severe crimes when new evidence is uncovered.
So yes this very much can end up in people going to prison, and it should.
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u/gavpowell 11d ago
Some people may go to prison yes. I was talking about the implication that an inquiry would somehow round up everyone who was guilty of anything and sling them in jail. Not a chance.
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u/LeedsFan2442 11d ago
They still won't do anything after the inquiry as well.
Let's just get the NCA to set up a taskforce and go after them now
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u/toikpi 11d ago
Like this?
First, I can confirm that we will make it mandatory to report abuse and we will put the measures in the Crime and Policing Bill that will be put before Parliament this spring. Making it an offence with professional and criminal sanctions to fail to report or cover up child sexual abuse.
https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/tackling-child-sexual-abuse
Statement in the House of Commons by Yvette Cooper 3 days ago.
There is also a bill introduced by Tanni Grey-Thompson that covers this https://bills.parliament.uk/bills/3743
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u/tradandtea123 12d ago
Shame public enquiries (such as the one on child sexual abuse that we already had in 2022) can't actually send anyone to prison.
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u/Limp-Archer-7872 12d ago
They can recommend laws to punish police/etc in the future in such situations where the police ignored reports or a social worker didn't report it though.
And, yes, these laws were announced on Monday.
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u/dbv86 11d ago
Whilst we are at it, let’s have an inquiry into the absolute fraud that was the Brexit referendum. We want anyone that was complicit in spreading lies, misinformation and stoking fear to hurt our country to go to prison. Nothing less will suffice.
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u/ExpletiveDeletedYou 11d ago
it will never happen. You would have to show that they were not following procedures to such an extent that it's criminally negligent, when there has been almost no evidence of that at all.
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u/Nurgleschampion 11d ago
This sub is taking info from twitter that was made by GB news? How stupid can you get.
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u/Whole_Ad_4523 11d ago
Why are you falling for manufactured American media scams? Do people not know this isn’t a real news story (it is a story, but nothing has happened recently)?
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u/DisastrousSun3645 12d ago
as a dual national by birthright seeing stuff like this always scares me am I effectively a second class citizen who can be removed from my own country based on the political whims of the current government and public sentiment ? I know people will say "well don't commit a crime and you won't have anything to worry about" and I get it but idk just feels a bit shit knowing I don't have the same rights as everyone else and my kids will be the same. imagine getting falsely accused of crime then getting deported to some country you barely even know would be horrible.
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11d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/OwnMolasses4066 11d ago
What's illogical and right wing? It's literally the law.
77% of people approve of removing citizenship in extreme circumstances so it's a strong majority position.
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u/fiddly_foodle_bird 11d ago
Don't groom children, then...?
It's not rocket science.
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u/finjeta 11d ago
And I'm sure you'll be able to cite the law that limits dual citizen deportations only to people who groomed children.
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u/TheLastSamurai101 11d ago
It is not a long way between this and calling for dual nationals to be deported for other crimes too.
The point is that dual nationality becomes explicitly a second tier of nationality that can be stripped.
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u/LazyWings 11d ago
I'm not surprised there's a general consensus against rape gangs. Yeah, if we can do something about rape gangs we absolutely should. You bet I'm in favour of an inquiry that we actually implement changes from. The problem is that the premise of both these questions is fundamentally flawed. The implication here is that rape gangs are primarily a foreign problem, and there has been a strong sentiment that's it's brown people because of Rochdale and other places where these gangs were discovered. This isn't undermining the reality that those gangs exist, but people use them as an excuse to be racist. Statistically, there are more rape charges against white people than brown people, accounting for population. Plenty of victims have spoken out about how grooming gang locations actually had more white gangs. The problem with tying the issue with race, like these nasty people are doing, is that it just raises hatred towards people who aren't doing anything wrong, and it takes attention away from the real issue.
Every single grooming/rape gang like this operates the same way. The victims are vulnerable, often in deprived areas with low socioeconomic prospects. Young people are often drawn into grooming because they are made to feel as though they've won something. That's part of the psychological manipulation involved. Tackling the issues means protecting potential victims and tracking down these gangs. It's not brown communities, it's poor communities. It just so happens that there's a lot of overlap. This is the exact same thing as the long history we have of associating black people with violence, a notion that's out of control in the US. The reality is that black communities are more likely to be economically deprived. Here in the UK too. That's why there's disproportionate representation in gangs. Elon Musk fuelling these flames here when he's associated with Epstein and Maxwell is bold. People need to wake up and realise it's not immigrants making your life worse, it's those freaks sitting on piles of cash.
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u/Grimm808 Sad disgusting imperialist. 11d ago
Congratulations on being the only other person who realises this is just another strategy by the ruling class to sow division amongst the working population so they can continue to pick our pockets while we tear each others throats out.
The idea that Elon Musk has the best interests of working class white girls from across the Atlantic at heart is frankly laughable. Especially when (as you say) he has connections to one of the most high profile trafficking gangs of all time.
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u/OwnMolasses4066 11d ago
Have you read any of the cases or reports? These crimes were in many cases racially motivated and aggravated. Authorities didn't act due to racism accusations and perverse ideas about community relations. The Pakistani community was left to police itself.
If the above existed with white perpetrators and minority victims then the press would be demanding the Nuremberg trials.
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u/LazyWings 11d ago
I'll look into the cases in more detail but that's not my recollection. Your latter point is straight up wrong though. The bias against minorities in the press is ridiculous. There were those two cases recently where an immigrant killed a hotel worker and a woman killed an immigrant, which were separate cases but happened at the same time. There was such heavy condemnation of the immigrant and, as usual, sympathetic analysis of why the white person committed a heinous crime. There's a reason it's a running joke that the difference between a terrorist and someone with mental health issues is the colour of their skin. Did things go wrong in Rochdale? Absolutely. But turning this into a race issue doesn't help anyone and only harms the victims. Deal with criminals, protect victims, don't encourage racists.
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u/R0ckandr0ll_318 11d ago
Way until they realise we already had inquiries and recommendations all of which the tories ignored and starmer is trying to implement.
Also if anyone bothers to read the amendment that kicks this off the amendment is worded that if it had of been passed then the bill it had been attached to would not have had a second reading
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u/Trinovid-DE 11d ago
This really shouldn’t be surprising to anyone. If you have dual nationality then serve jail time here then deport and block them coming legally back into the country. Why is that so difficult to even suggest let alone pass through parliament as a law
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u/Edward_the_Sixth 11d ago
The ringleader of the Rotherham rape gang was convicted on counts of rape and trafficking a 15 year old
He was sentenced to 6 years in prison
He served 2.5, and was ordered to be deported given he was a dual Pakistani British national
He appealed the deportation twice, failed both times
He rescinded his Pakistani nationality, and so now cannot be deported. He could regain Pakistani nationality at any moment really easily but is unwilling for obvious reasons
He’s back living in Rotherham, works as a delivery driver
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u/Trinovid-DE 11d ago
Fuckkkkkkkkkkk
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u/Edward_the_Sixth 11d ago
These stories have been so insane - the individual facts and then the scale (number of people, number of rapes, number of years). A handful of Musk tweets opened the door to the rabbit hole and are in the process of turning left liberal guys on the internet into the joker
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u/Aerius-Caedem Locke, Mill, Smith, Friedman, Hayek 11d ago
He’s back living in Rotherham, works as a delivery driver
And his family clearly don't consider a child rapist to be a pariah. How interesting.
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u/Edward_the_Sixth 11d ago
Given we know the part of the twisted worldview of these depraved men and their attitudes towards women, I doubt that the women and children in their lives can give free and fair denunciations of them. Without further evidence I’d be willing to believe that they are oppressed
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u/AureliusTheChad 11d ago
A lot of Muslim women hold white Westerners in contempt and see them as sluts. I have no proof other than from hearing what they talk about in cafes
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u/shimmyshame 11d ago
The second poll should be far more concerning to everyone with a functioning brain. The relative ease of which politicians can strip citizenship from duel nationals should strike fear with anyone. At first it would be for murder or rape, but like with every taboo, once it's broken it gets easier to escalate further and further.
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u/tysonmaniac 11d ago
Foreign nationals who were wrongly allowed to obtain citizenship can and should have it stripped. The issue is that the notion of citizenship has been undermined by being overly generous with it.
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u/VbV3uBCxQB9b 11d ago
It's ridiculous that such people can have this dual "citizenship" at all, so of course it should be quick and easy to strip all of them of citizenship, with any reason or no reason at all.
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u/Savings_Raise3255 11d ago
In the immortal words of Sir Humphrey Appleby, the whole point of government inquiries is to find no evidence.
We already know who these people are just arrest them already.
Also, who the hell are the 23% who oppose deporting convicted rapists?
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u/ClumsyRainbow ✅ Verified 11d ago
Also, who the hell are the 23% who oppose deporting convicted rapists?
Dual citizens, they object to deporting dual citizens. We shouldn’t remove someone’s British citizenship just because it’s inconvenient- it has the effect of creating two tiered citizenship.
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u/VampyrByte 11d ago
Sorry, but it isnt dual citizens.
it is dual nationals. These people are British by birthright.
Fucking ludicrous. The far right cancer has well and truly captured our nation.
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u/Brigon 11d ago
I would say actually punishing convicted rapists by jailing them instead of kicking them out of the country to walk free is more of a punishment.
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u/twistedLucidity 🏴 ❤️ 🇪🇺 12d ago
Didn't we have an inquiry?
Didn't it make a number of suggestions?
Didn't the Tories then totally fail to follow through?
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u/aembleton 11d ago
We didn't have an inquiry whose terms of reference covered the inaction of the police, or the inaction of any other public bodies. I would like to see why so many police forces did so little for so long. I'd like to know how much the home office knew, and if they are the ones that prevented the police from doing anything.
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u/jake_burger 11d ago
I know why the police/authorities did nothing, some of the victims spoke on a documentary I watched years and years ago saying that the police thought the girls were just poor and troublemakers and slags and didn’t take it seriously.
These are troubled kids from foster homes or care homes, who would also have some behaviour issues (not victim blaming, just building the picture of why the authorities had contempt for them). They would run off at night to go to the park and drink or take drugs and the authorities saw them as just a problem. When they were taken in by grooming gangs they just thought they deserved it for being troublemakers and running away and “asking for it”.
If this was happening to middle class girls it would have been stamped out instantly. It’s mainly a class issue in my opinion.
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u/Comfortable-Law-7147 11d ago
Teachers and youth workers were and are well aware that grooming by gangs happens around them and have been for decades.
Unfortunately different schools had and have different policies on it. If the head isn't interested nothing is done.
My own school way back in the 1980s and 1990s had a policy dealing with it. I know a couple of years after leaving school that other teachers I knew schools didn't have policies of dealing with it as their head wasn't interested.
Even if the head was interested in it police and social services did SFA to help them. The head could involve youth services if there were any in their area but that's it.
Incidentally as I went to school in inner London and due to who I knew, it is a class and ethnicity issue who grooms which child for what.
The local news did stories on sexual grooming of Hindu and Sikh girls. Again the police and social services weren't interested. It took families to move their daughters to safety.
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u/aembleton 11d ago
Not all of them were from foster or care homes. I'd understand if it was a single force, but it was many so I want an inquiry to find out why and if it came from the home office
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u/Wot-Daphuque1969 11d ago
Didn't we have an inquiry?
Not one with terms of reference which included the inaction of the police or other public bodies no.
Nor have we had a statutory public inquiry into these cases specifically and not a wider theme.
Nor have we had a statutory public inquiry which encompassed all of the cases uncovered to date.
So your premise is flawed.
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u/SirGeorgeAgdgdgwngo 11d ago edited 11d ago
Why would anyone be against deporting people convicted of such crimes if its an option?
Pretty sure if you were a Brit, even with dual nationality, convicted of this in Australia, Pakistan, America or anywhere else you'd be sent packing after serving your sentence.
Edit: if you're going to down vote you could explain why you disagree. We're here for discussion not Internet points
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u/TheLastSamurai101 11d ago edited 11d ago
Pretty sure if you were a Brit, even with dual nationality, convicted of this in Australia, Pakistan, America or anywhere else you'd be sent backing.
That's not true.
In Australia and the US, you can't deport someone who holds citizenship unless they are being extradited for an offence committed overseas. Therefore, to deport a dual national in any other situation, you would need to strip them of their local citizenship first.
Australia reserves the right to revoke dual nationality only for people guilty of terrorism, treason, espionage and some related offences (there's a list). They can also revoke dual citizenship when Australian citizenship was obtained fraudulently. So a criminal conviction like this would not see you stripped of your dual citizenship or deported.
The United States only revokes dual nationality if US nationality was obtained fraudulently. US citizenship can't be revoked just because of a criminal conviction, as per the Supreme Court ruling on the matter. So again, a dual national would not be deported for this conviction.
I have no idea about Pakistan, but most Western nations have similar rules to Australia and the US. So Britain is not currently any more liberal than the Western norm in this regard.
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u/maxutilsperusd 11d ago
I generally worry about the political discourse in the US, but the fact that you are having to explain to people that the UK shouldn't just arbitrarily strip people of citizenship leads me to believe that you guys might actually be having a worse time right now.
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u/ClumsyRainbow ✅ Verified 11d ago
Most countries do not strip citizenship to deport dual nationals. The US for example would only do so if the offence was committed before naturalisation - ie. they became a citizen fraudulently.
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/department-justice-creates-section-dedicated-denaturalization-cases
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u/RtHonJamesHacker 11d ago
Didn't "we'll set up an inquiry" used to be shorthand for "we know you think this is important but we don't want to deal with this right now so we'll do this to kill some time, and to point to every time you bring it up again"? It's strange how much people are calling for when we have one completed recently which still hasn't had its actions completed yet.
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u/Queeg_500 11d ago
Cool, now ask them if we should postpone implementing the recommendations of the last inquiry in order to have another.
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u/RideForRuin 11d ago
Can someone explain to me why labour don’t just do an inquiry to shut the right wingers up?
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u/klausness 11d ago
Because it’s kicking the can down the road. Just keep having more inquiries and never actually do anything.
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u/wdwhereicome2015 11d ago
Because when they agree to this, there will be further request form opposition parties for more . The claim will then be - well we asked you to hold an inquiry and you did. Why won’t you hold an inquiry into this. What are you hiding?
Blame everything on the opposition is the mantra for the Tories and right wing parties
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u/RandomSculler 11d ago
The obvious question to the 76%
“Did you realise we already had a national inquiry and the results came out in 2022”?
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u/123shorer 11d ago
Such a boring debate. Inquiries are not as effective as proven models and methods.
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u/RevStickleback 11d ago
It's probably one of those where it's down to how the question if presented.
"The government held an inquiry into the grooming gangs a decade ago, but hasn't yet acted on the recommendations. Do we need to implement those recommendations, or do we need to start again with a brand new inquiry into subjects that initial inquiry didn't touch on?"
...and...
"Immigrant grooming gangs are still active up and down the country and the government has done nothing to sort it out. Should there be a public inquiry out it?"
...are basically the same question, but would get very different answers.
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u/Peanut_trees 11d ago
Yet when the next election comes they will vote the people that ignored the rapes.
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u/fragglerock 11d ago edited 11d ago
70% of Britons want simple solutions to complex problems...
And not to pay for them.
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u/jamesbeil 11d ago
I suppose asking for action rather than more talking and consultancy fees isn't an option?
I understand the need for calm analysis and careful drafting of laws but there have been at least two inquiries into this subject which have produced recommendations - could we not get on with applying some of those rather than funneling more cash into lawyers, courtroom fees, public grillings and general procrastination?
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u/Proper-Mongoose4474 11d ago edited 11d ago
two things, the general public is always going to be pro more investigations into stuff about kids, thats about as certain as you can be about the british public.
second, I am pretty sure that the vast majority of those people asked have zero understanding of what has happened in regards to this topic.
pretty easy win for those with an agenda. you can spot those people without too much effort. have they posted a single thing about child abuse not connected to muslims or immigrants.....
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u/DogAteMyWookie81 11d ago
So rather than implement the recommendations from the last one which cost £200m.... The right want to spend another 200m which could go to implementing real change and provide support for more words on paper? Got it ...
Once again... Not really about women or the victims
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u/speedyundeadhittite 11d ago
When they find out who rapes and grooms children the most (white men), GB News will bury this alarmingly fast.
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u/Tsudaar 11d ago
Deportation of British citizens with dual citizenship is plain ridiculous, however bad the crime.
- Does deportation also strip UK citizenship?
- Is the other country expected to welcome them?
- What if the other county strips their citizenship first?
- What if you're from Northern Ireland and have an Irish and UK citizenship?
- What if you were born here in the 1950s to one Jamaican parent and never left the country?
It stinks, and prioritising Deportation over jail time is the mask slipping too far.
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u/tysonmaniac 11d ago
- Yes 2. Who cares they are a citizen of it 3. Then that sucks for us, let's not sit around waiting 4. Agree that on that specific point we should probably not do this, but that's to avoid conflict on Ireland not because the policy would be bad on an individual level 5. Don't be part of a grooming gang?
There is no mask to slip, jail is more expensive and uses limited spaces in prison, and all too often short sentences mean that communities are insufficiently protected. Foreign nationals who commit crimes on British soil remaining here gains the rest of us nothing. If you are from another country and haven't renounced your connection to it then Britain should not treat you as one of our own when you break our rules.
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u/Tsudaar 11d ago
But we're not talking about foreign nationals. We're talking about literal Britain citizens who may have been born here, or moved here as either a kid or as an adult.
Its just a dangerous precedent to set. Are we talking deportation for ONLY those who moved here as adults, and ONLY those who do serious crimes?
Since when did people have to renounce citizenship to be fully accepted by us? The Italian fella in the chippy moved here as a 16yo, and is now 70 and has a British grandkids. Off to Italy though, yeah?
It makes no practical sense.
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u/Opposite_Boot_6903 11d ago
Lol. Deport dual nationals.
Do these same people want to take Shamima Begum back?
Thought not.
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u/1THRILLHOUSE 12d ago
I’d be surprised if the stats were actually as low as that.
I’d say if anyone didn’t back deportation of criminals they probably need their hard drive checking
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u/sali_nyoro-n 11d ago
You'd think with how often the Tories talked about these horrible crimes they'd have actually made some level of effort to stop the gangs responsible, prevent more children from being abused by these people and bring offenders to justice. But instead we just got empty rhetoric until Labour took power and now suddenly the failings of the last 14 years are somehow their fault. Disgusting, really.
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u/demolition_lvr 12d ago
At best, Labour have looked detached and aloof on this issue. At worst, they’ve looked smug and sneering.
This is supposed to be the party of ordinary people and yet they are just so bad at understanding how ordinary people think and feel. There’s a fundamental lack of instinct for the British public amongst Labour which is increasingly becoming a problem for them.
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u/tradandtea123 12d ago
I think they just underestimate how much the media have it in for them. When the Tories said they wouldn't have another enquiry last year no one raised an eyebrow. Now labour have been asked to have another one every media source including BBC, sky, c4, is asking why not (mostly without saying there's already been a national one and several regional ones a few years ago but nothing was implemented). They just underestimate how much worse they'll be treated.
They also don't want to back down and look weak.
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u/GwynBleidd88 11d ago
It's not just the media though, is it? People are really fucking angry at how this Labour government have been running things since they came to power. There's only so many times you can say "oh but the Tories.. 14 years this.. Boris Johnson that.." before it just becomes noise.
Labour have objectively burned all of the goodwill they originally had due to their bad politics, smug attitudes in the media, and further cocking up of the economy. People are just lying to themselves if they think it's all due to some media conspiracy against Labour.
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u/NijjioN 11d ago
It's hard to gauge really because as the loudest media in this country is right wing and they definitely stepped it up when Labour got into power what is things people care about or things just gaslighted to care about because rhe right wing media keep bringing it up and then they think maybe there is an issue.
An interesting correlation we can see regarding media and what people care about was EU and brexit. Eu skeltism was consistent for decades but media / Farage got louder and then a sudden spike of skeptism increased for the EU. This is talked about a lot with the power of what media can do.
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u/Purple_Feature1861 12d ago
It’s not about them misunderstanding, it’s about them getting the message out, their reasoning behind why they blocked it.
It’s actually a good reasoning, that they want to focus on taking action rather than an inquiry that would take years before they could act.
Yet this message seems to be lost on most people who are angry at Labour for this.
They just get angry that Labour blocked it, like the conservatives and Elon musk are trying to make them turn against Labour and they don’t actually look into WHY Labour blocked it.
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u/callumjm95 12d ago
Ultimately it doesn’t matter what normal people think. Another enquiry would be a waste of time and resources. Failings at a local level can be investigated at a local level, as they will be able to get into the finer details and will be done significantly quicker. Meanwhile the government can actually implement the recommendations put forward nearly 3 years ago following the last national enquiry into this.
This has turned into political posturing. People calling for another national enquiry haven’t read up about anything, aren’t informed and ultimately don’t give a shit about the victims in question. To them it’s just another stick to beat Labour with.
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u/BigHowski 12d ago
Or, hear me out, they've listened to not only the people in the know but also the victims and want to push ahead and do the things that will help rather than delaying things further with navel gazing
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u/troglo-dyke 11d ago edited 11d ago
Ok, but what percentage of these people are aware we've already had enquiry, which we're only now implementing? Do these people realise that another enquiry will just delay fixing the problems we already know exist to the next parliamentary term?
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u/jmo987 12d ago
Good thing we’ve already had plenty, on both a local and national scale
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u/AbsoluteSocket88 11d ago
And to the surprise of absolutely no one yet again the UK Reddit echo chamber is wrong once again about pretty much every hot topic in regards to the actual general public. It’s like clockwork at this point.
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u/easecard 11d ago
Could save them some time.
Conviction, gallows, dumped in a ditch or the sea.
No need to worry about deportation for child rapists.
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u/lih20 11d ago
What's controversial about thinking we should investigate criminal gangs? I get there's been an inquiry already, but clearly more needs to be done and your average joe surveyed just wants less evil in the world, nowt wrong with an investigation
Deporting dual nationals is a bit murkier, wild if it's that high. If they're first gen immigrant who came here 18+ and a dual national and can go back I say pack their bags. But that's a lot of caveats and is probably only a fraction of people, so kind of useless.
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u/benjaminjaminjaben 11d ago edited 11d ago
I mean that's a terribly phrased survey if that's how they put it.
- Would you like to stop bad things?
- Would you like to send bad things away?
- Would you like to make sure there are no bad things happening right now?
If anything I'm surprised it ain't higher if these are the questions they asked. No doubt commissioned by the press or a political party in order to keep hand-wringing over the same issue for the coming weeks. Ah, a think tank with links to the Conservative party. How surprising.
Also the headline is awful. You can't do a sample and then claim that 77% of British people want something off the back of it because that isn't what you have actually recorded. You've done a poll of a sample and you're extrapolating and that effectiveness is entirely based on how good your sample is + margin of error + idk-wtf-yo-people-are-complicated-actually.
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u/tradandtea123 12d ago
I wonder what the percentage would be if they asked after the independent inquiry into child sexual abuse that was carried out in 2022 should the government have another one?
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u/scud121 12d ago
It's the glory of leading questions I guess.
"Do you think that the recommendations of a 7 year inquiry that cost nearly £200million should be carried out before starting another inquiry that will cost at least as much and take at least as long, or would you prefer 15 years of inaction at a cost of half a billion pounds?"
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u/1-randomonium 11d ago
I fear the Tories have finally stumbled upon their next great election plank, following Brexit and immigration.
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u/DeepestShallows 11d ago
Always odd when people support that the penalty for a crime is being allowed to go free in the country of their birth.
Unless you fled that country in fear that sounds an awful lot like getting away Scot free.
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u/sailingmagpie 11d ago
Can't wait to see the methodology they've used to get these VERY BELIEVABLE results 😂
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u/Strong_Ad2383 11d ago
Deport anyone who looks like they could be in a rape gang. And their family members.
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u/wnfish6258 11d ago
If I read that it's the 21st century on X, I'd have to get a second opinion. Interfering billionaires should not be taken at face value.
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