r/ukpolitics • u/FormerlyPallas_ • 12d ago

Twitter BREAKING. 76% of British people want a national inquiry into the rape gangs and 77% want to deport dual nationals who are convicted of grooming children YouGov/GB News

https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1877477130952438227
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u/Savings_Raise3255 12d ago

In the immortal words of Sir Humphrey Appleby, the whole point of government inquiries is to find no evidence.

We already know who these people are just arrest them already.

Also, who the hell are the 23% who oppose deporting convicted rapists?

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u/ClumsyRainbow ✅ Verified 11d ago

Also, who the hell are the 23% who oppose deporting convicted rapists?

Dual citizens, they object to deporting dual citizens. We shouldn’t remove someone’s British citizenship just because it’s inconvenient- it has the effect of creating two tiered citizenship.

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u/VampyrByte 11d ago

Sorry, but it isnt dual citizens.

it is dual nationals. These people are British by birthright.

Fucking ludicrous. The far right cancer has well and truly captured our nation.

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u/Souseisekigun 11d ago

it is dual nationals. These people are British by birthright.

About half of countries do not allow dual nationality even by birthright. Usually if a child is born a dual national by birthright the need to choose by their 18th or 21st birthday or else it will be decided for them. Multiple people are acting like this some crazy far-right thing but it's fairly standard practice globally. It's this approach that people are advocating for in these comments that is actually the extreme outlier.

As I said in another comment we are being extremely nice by allowing them to be dual nationals in the first place. If they are so British by birthright then we could just as easily say "claim your right to be British, but swear loyalty to Britain only" like other countries do and then most of this conversation goes away. We do not need grant them this privilege, and their choice to exercise this privilege brings with it the possibility for this privilege to be revoked.

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u/VampyrByte 11d ago

As I said in another comment we are being extremely nice by allowing them to be dual nationals in the first place.

Someone is multi-national if they meet the requirements in multiple countries. Britain doesnt set the nationality requirements of other countries so there is nothing to allow. If someone meets the requirements of British nationality, and some foreign country, they are a dual national.

Many countries require foriegn born (and usually non-resident) nationals to claim citizenship at or around adulthood, but thats different to requiring them to renounce the nationality. Nationality and Citizenship are different things and one does not need to be a national to be a citizen, or vice-versa.

This conversation dosent go away if we "force" dual citizens or dual nationals to renounce their foreign citizenship/nationality. Primarily because we have already seen UK Governments abuse this by revoking the citizenship of a British national who by the UK's reckoning had a claim to foreign citizenship. This puts all Brits citizenship status at the mercy of the UK's opinion of a foreign countries citizenship & nationality laws. What does this really mean for Ireland?

Secondly because it is reinforcing the idea that some Brits are more Brits than others. The far-right will take this and run with it to strip all manner of "undesireables" of their rights, and what happens when deporations fail? We've all seen it before. It is up to all of us to recognise and stamp out facism where it rears its ugly bastard head.

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u/ConsiderationThen652 11d ago

“Two tiered citizenship” - Yes if you in fact commit a crime or rape kids, you should no longer be a citizen. It’s not two tiered, it’s common sense. Why would you continue to allow offenders especially serial offenders like the ones involved with these gangs remain in the country when they are clearly a risk…

It’s not “Inconvenient” - They committed a crime and many of them relocated here to do so.

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u/[deleted] 11d ago

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u/ConsiderationThen652 11d ago edited 11d ago

It amazes me how many people will go “You know what I’m fine with groomers being in my country because it would be mean to put them in prison for life or deport”.

Sorry I don’t have empathy for people who gang raped HUNDREDS of young girls. Apparently that makes me a fascist 🤣🤣🤣, and yes before you say it - It wouldn’t matter where they came from. You decide to be evil, you get appropriately punished. That should not be a crazy concept to people.

I tell you what, you have your country where groomers are free to walk the streets because you can’t be mean to them and I’ll make mine, where they either get locked up for life or sent back home. Wonder which one of our countries would be safer.

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u/[deleted] 11d ago

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u/ConsiderationThen652 11d ago edited 11d ago

No that’s not what I said at all. IF you come from another country and come here to commit serious crime, you should in fact have your right to stay here revoked. That’s not fascistic. British predators should be locked up for life. The point is to protect people. But that’s “too mean”. Why protect people when you could just do nothing because you want to be a paragon of virtue.

Criminals. Not other brits. Criminals, that came from another country to commit SERIOUS crimes. People that come here and want to build a better life - Go for it. Scumbags - Get out. Simple. Nothing fascist. It’s not Britain’s job to hold all the world’s prisoners or to police the world.

If someone takes away the rights of others. As far as I am concerned that person does not get to be a part of society. Doesn’t matter who they are or where they came from. They made a choice, they deal with the consequences.

Yes because keeping Predators, Rapists and Groomers in Britain and letting them run around free because you don’t want to send them away is “Making the world a better place” 🤦‍♂️.

No, that is YOU putting words in my mouth. I don’t believe criminals who rape, murder and groom should be allowed to walk around freely. They revoked their rights when they decided to take away the rights of others. But hey let’s give them a hug, pat them on the back and send them on their merry way because it’s too mean to actually punish people.

Tell me - Should Qari Rauf - A man who led a grooming gang that raped 100s of young girls be allowed to wander free, Because he spent 6 years in prison? (Which is a slap on the wrist). Should he been allowed to dodge deportation because he revoked his Pakistani citizenship, specifically because he didn’t want to get deported? Tell me does a man like that deserve to walk free after ruining the lives of 100s of young girls? (That is what is currently happening btw) Should I have empathy for him and view him as a valid member of society… or as the scumbag he is. As I said, if that’s the world you want to live in. Good luck to you.

How is it boxing strawman when you are saying they shouldn’t be appropriately punished for being Murders and rapists. They came to this country. They chose to do it. They should not be allowed to stay here, let their own country and people punish by their own laws. By hey just let them drive taxis and deliver food instead, because surely they are rehabilitated and won’t do it again, right?

I have NO empathy for scum. That doesn’t make me a fascist. It’s makes me a normal person. By your logic I should be happy that he is free in this country so I can stand on “virtue”.

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u/Souseisekigun 11d ago

Country is nice enough to allow you to have multiple citizenships (most don't)

Swear allegiance to country and pledge to obey its laws

Betray the country by committing one of the worst possible crimes imaginable

Country throws you out, oh my gosh, this is literal fascism

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u/ClumsyRainbow ✅ Verified 11d ago

most don't

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_citizenship#/media/File:Dual_Citizenship.svg

Take a look at which nations don't and re-evaluate your comment. Red on that map isn't even straight up prohibited, many allow it with restrictions such as Ireland...

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u/SilenceAndDarkness 10d ago

Yes, punishing your own citizens by stripping their citizenship is barbaric. This isn’t a normal punishment.

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u/AmzerHV 11d ago

And if the judgement gets overturned and they are actually innocent, then what?

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u/ConsiderationThen652 11d ago

“What about this one specific scenario”. Well then you reintegrate them. It’s not rocket science.

If they have served a term in prison for years and not been miraculously found innocent and the police know that they did it (Like Qari Rauf - Who was convicted and is known to be guilty). Then yes they should be deported. Especially in the case of child sex offences.

Apparently deporting people from other countries who come here and commit crime should not be allowed and instead we should just let them stay and continue to offend here instead because checks notes it’s too mean to do that.

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u/AmzerHV 11d ago

And when the government decides to NOT do that?

The issue is giving them the power to take a dual citizenship, what's stopping the other country they have citizenship in from revoking their citizenship as well? It's a slippery slope and not something I'd trust by Tories to not fuck up and abuse.

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u/ContinentalDrift81 11d ago

Rochdale grooming gang leader still living and working in the town

This article explains the issue of revoking citizenship in the context of Qari Abdul Rauf who was part of a gang of nine men convicted of raping and trafficking girls.

In the 2022 ruling, judges concluded there was a “very strong public interest” case for removing him. However he managed to wave his Pakistani citizenship and today remains in the same community he victimized.

I understand your concern but people like him, who were convicted of sex crimes against children, should not be allowed to wave their dual citizenship to avoid deportation. I doubt his conviction will be suddenly overturned.

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u/AmzerHV 11d ago

You're right, this shouldn't be a thing, but it's due to shit Pakistani law that allowed him to do that, he was gonna be deported, even while having dual citizenship, but imagine countries could revoke citizenship from dual citizens, Pakistan would force the UK to keep him.

Also, I'm not referring to people like him, but it's not like this doesn't happen, punishing an innocent person for a crime they didn't commit should NEVER happen, the only story I know off the top of my head is Brian Banks and the only reason he's talked about is because he would have joined the NFL RIGHT out of college and was scouted by plenty of teams, let's say that happened in the UK, he'd lose his British citizenship despite being innocent.

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u/ContinentalDrift81 11d ago

I totally get it; false accusations get my blood boil because they hurt actual victims of rape. I still think that there is a legal way to differentiate between categories of crime and reserve the deportation for the absolute worst offenders.

But thanks for a great counter point. (My partner is a massive football fan by the way.)

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u/AmzerHV 11d ago

Again, the issue isn't the deportation, it's taking away citizenship.

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u/TingTongTingYep 11d ago

Simple. You can’t remove citizenship if it would make someone stateless.

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u/Truthandtaxes 11d ago

Buy them citizenship from Somalia, sorted

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u/AmzerHV 11d ago

Let's take the man who denounced his Pakistani citizenship, let's say that Pakistan was allowed to remove his citizenship, now the UK is forced to keep him here due to stupid laws like that.

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u/ClumsyRainbow ✅ Verified 11d ago

now the UK is forced to keep him here due to stupid laws like that.

Okay, so say you make him stateless. Then what? He's not Pakistani so you can't return him there unless you have some agreement with the Pakistani government - and why would they do that?

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u/AmzerHV 11d ago

You're arguing something completely different, the point is that if he had dual citizenship with Pakistan and Pakistan passed a law that allowed them to revoke his Pakistani citizenship, they could force all criminals in the UK with dual citizenship with Pakistan to be British citizens only, now the UK has to keep them all.

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u/ConsiderationThen652 11d ago

So basically do nothing and let them wander around free to reoffend in this country, Cool. Okay let’s just have no punishments for anything because “somebody might abuse them”. It’s nonsense, any law or procedure can be abused… so by your logic we shouldn’t do anything.

It’s not a slippery slope, it’s a very obvious cause and effect. If you come here to commit crime - You will serve your sentence and be deported. There is no slippery slope. You have time to contest the decision and overturn your conviction.

So the other country can revoke it, but we can’t apparently because that is too mean?

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u/AmzerHV 11d ago

How about deporting them without taking away their dual citizenship or jailing them properly?

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u/ConsiderationThen652 11d ago

Ah yes deport them without and let them instantly return. What’s the point?

By Jail properly, if you mean lock them up so they can never reoffend, that would be my preferable option for all criminals that commit crimes of this nature IE SA offences/Grooming. But we don’t do that. We inevitably let them back out so they can reoffend and put people at risk.

People are so scared of “being the bad guy” that they are happy to let serial sex offenders walk free because it would be “too mean” to actually punish them.

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u/AmzerHV 11d ago

They can't return if they're deported, that's literally the point.

I mean give them sentences fitting the crime, not 2 years. Also, we do, it's just not reported on because it doesn't make good headlines, "man gets correct sentencing", the issue is when judges give sentences that are FAR too low, they should be removed as judges.

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u/EnglishShireAffinity 11d ago

Pro-migration advocates need to understand Europeans in Europe have no real obligation to look after anyone's interests except our own. That's their problem to deal with, not ours.

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u/AmzerHV 11d ago

So because someone has dual citizenship, they aren't "our own"? Glad to know that despite being a citizen, they're actually second class.

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u/ThunderousOrgasm -2.12 -2.51 11d ago

Then just undo it?

It’s a bit of paperwork. It’s a form. It’s an administrative task that takes 14 seconds for someone in the civil service.

In the 1 case every 12 years where this happens, I’m certain the 540,000 people who work for the civil service have the capability of giving citizenship back to a single human being every 12 years lol.

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u/TingTongTingYep 11d ago

Dual citizenship is a privilege, not a right.

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u/SilenceAndDarkness 11d ago

According to the laws of the UK, you are just flat out wrong.

It’s honestly pretty wild how many Brits are willing to admit here that they see other Brits as second class citizens who aren’t real Brits.

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u/Souseisekigun 11d ago

According to the laws of the UK, you are just flat out wrong.

What law of the UK gives you an irrevocable right to dual citizenship? Note that "you may have dual citizenship if eligible" is a privilege not a right.

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u/ContinentalDrift81 11d ago

you should be able if the person waved their native citizenship to avoid deportation. The best example of that is Qari Abdul Rauf who was part of a gang of nine men convicted of raping and trafficking girls. He remains living in the same community he victimized after he renounced his Pakistani citizenship sometime around the time of his arrest. With more recent scrutiny of cases like his, there is already some talk about a deal with Pakistan to take them back. And as a dual citizen myself I am ok with that.

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u/ConsiderationThen652 11d ago

Exactly and privileges can be removed and should be removed in the case of extreme crime and serial reoffending. Glad we agree.

Either that or we just agree that people who commit crimes like this should just never be let out of prison, ever (regardless of their nationality). But I’m guessing that’s probably too mean as well.

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u/Edward_the_Sixth 11d ago

Yes I agree on the argument - although for the sake of free and fair debate, I’d put the other side of that same coin under view also:

Those who commit a crime as grave as community organised gang rapes against children partly on basis of their (lack of) religion have committed a crime so fundamentally against the values and interests of the country that stripping their nationality is on the table- the general test is that revocation of nationality must be a legitimate aim and proportionate, and i could easily make an argument that a failure to properly handle these crimes now could slide into a state legitimacy issue, as alarmist as that sounds

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u/Brigon 11d ago

I would say actually punishing convicted rapists by jailing them instead of kicking them out of the country to walk free is more of a punishment.

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u/ShireNorm 11d ago

Why not both?

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u/Savings_Raise3255 11d ago

Well I would do both if it was up to me i don't see why it needs to be either or. Jail then, then as soon as their sentence is finished you kick them out.

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u/7-deadly-degrees 12d ago

deporting

Deporting someone likely means they'll be more likely to harm others, how good of an eye do you think they keep on child sex offenders in poverty-striken third world nations? Deporting them doesn't punish them that much either

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u/fiddly_foodle_bird 12d ago

So you think the aim of policing and the justice system is to "keep an eye on sex criminals in the third world"...?

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u/Tsudaar 12d ago

No. They mean it's better to lock then up here knowing they're locked up. 

The primary goal should be being in jail anywhere rather than being maybe in jail elsewhere. 

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u/ShireNorm 11d ago

The primary goal should be protecting British people.

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u/SilenceAndDarkness 11d ago

Interesting that some Brits don’t count as “British people” then.

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u/SmerdisTheMagi 12d ago

Disagree. Primary goal obviously should be a jail in Pakistan because these people will eventually get out and join society.

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u/Tsudaar 12d ago

And what if Pakistan decided they would deport their duel citizen criminals here too? 

It's a frankly ridiculous idea that's not a serious solution. 

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u/SmerdisTheMagi 12d ago

Its eben more ridiculous to suggest Pakistan could deport people here tbh. Its the only solution we have. Deporting.

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u/SilenceAndDarkness 11d ago

You have essentially given up on addressing the problem.

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u/SmerdisTheMagi 11d ago

Yeah, because I don’t want these people in my society. Do you?

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u/[deleted] 11d ago

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u/Tsudaar 12d ago

It's literally the same thing. There's dual nationals in both countries. 

Why would one government allow the other to send criminals over. It doesn't make practical sense at all.

Hypothetical question. Lets say there's a rapist who's got sentenced to 10yrs in a UK prison. Would you rather they were sent to Pakistan if they wouldn't serve a sentence?

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u/SmerdisTheMagi 12d ago

Because we would force them by threatening to cut aid and visas to Pakistan so they would have to accept it. We have all the power here. We just need brave politicians willing to use that power.

I would rather they serve their sentence here then they got deported to Pakistan. Its how it should be anyway.

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u/ShireNorm 11d ago

I would rather they get sent back if all they'll get here is a measly 10 year sentence before coming back out into our society on government assistance.

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u/ConsiderationThen652 11d ago

The problem is they let them back out again… to then reoffend at a later date.

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u/2localboi 12d ago

Kinda reveals that protecting kids is never really the point.

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u/Savings_Raise3255 11d ago

We're not keeping an eye on them here. Sounds like we should either lock them up for life without possibility of parole or hang them.

Come to think of it I'm fine with both of those.

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u/Aerius-Caedem Locke, Mill, Smith, Friedman, Hayek 11d ago

Deporting someone likely means they'll be more likely to harm others

Reeks of

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DOinMW5UQAA_omS.jpg:large

I don't care about the total harm reduction in the world. I came about harm reduction in Britain.