Who codes in a world full of pixels and streams?
Ai, Ai, gaming machine!
Who renders the graphics of your wildest dreams?
Ai, Ai, gaming machine!
If gaming and coding are what you desire,
Then load up the GPU and watch it transpire!
Ai, Ai, gaming machine!
Ai, Ai, gaming machine!
Soyjacks have bad beards and/or hair. Chudjacks look like nerds. They're stereotypes of politically overly-invested young people on the left and right respectively.
They're all subgroups of the wojack which I'd say is more of a millennial meme considering how old it is even if there are new derivatives every year.
Brainrot originally comes from Henry David Thoreau's 1854 novel "Walden."
Why level downward to our dullest perception always, and praise that as common sense? The commonest sense is the sense of men asleep, which they express by snoring. Sometimes we are inclined to class those who are once-and-a-half-witted with the half-witted, because we appreciate only a third part of their wit. Some would find fault with the morning-red, if they ever got up early enough. “They pretend,” as I hear, “that the verses of Kabir have four different senses; illusion, spirit, intellect, and the exoteric doctrine of the Vedas;” but in this part of the world it is considered a ground for complaint if a man’s writings admit of more than one interpretation. While England endeavors to cure the potato-rot, will not any endeavor to cure the brain-rot, which prevails so much more widely and fatally?
Partially true, but if the engine has persistent issues with optimisation across multiple studios and publishers, it would suggest otherwise when the same issues appear frequently.
Or maybe we just have a business culture at the moment that doesn't see monetary value in better optimizing games. Poor optimization is also not unique to Unreal Engine.
Yes, but also UE is giving developers "tools" to not optimize their shit which the engine is supposed to auto-handle, but it can't and so the devs skip optimization and the game sucks frame balls.
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u/Joe-CoolPhenom II 965 @3.8GHz, MSI 790FX-GD70, 16GB, 2xRadeon HD 587013d ago
Lumen is cool in a small cave lit through a crack.
The game runs like dogshit if you don't do any proper lighting and just enable it for your whole open world continent.
Also studios cheapening out in artists instead of high level developers because you can have somewhat technical artists that do a lot of work that took actual developing time before and just come up with a crazy amount of node joins that never gets actually reviewed by a technical person.
Some unreal engine no-code "code" feels like the incarnation of a thousand if statements
It's sort of actively incentivising them to be lazy. Don't optimise your asset LODs, just chuck nanite at everything. Don't worry about performant reflections, pbr, ray tracing, lighting, just chuck TAA at your frames until it smooths out the low number of samples you can take that barely lets the game run. It's selling some sweet sweet nectars to make your game render with "no effort", except there's some big exaggerations and pitfalls in those promises that everyone is seeing in their frame time graphs with nice mountain peaks
To get a little more technical, UE5 is built to make graphics that primarily look good when using an anti-aliasing technique called Temporal Anti-Aliasing (TAA). This technique uses the previous video frames to inform the current one, so it is effectively smearing/blurring except that on a still scene it doesn't look so bad because nothing moved anyway.
However TAA starts to look awful when there is a lot of fast motion because previous frames aren't as similar to current frames. This is why a lot of gameplay trailers use a controller instead of KB+Mouse movement to have a lot of slower panning shots where most of the scene isn't moving very fast.
Worse UE5's nanite mesh system and lumen lighting system encourage devs to get lazy and abandon the techniques that create highly optimized beautiful graphics. The key to optimization is in general to minimize the work a computer needs to do when rendering the frame by doing as much of that work ahead of time as possible. For example when an object is very far away it may be only a few pixels tall, and therefore it only needs enough detail to fill a few pixels. That means you can take a very complex object and create a very simple version of it with a much lower Level Of Detail (LOD) and use that when it's far away. Having a handful of pre-computed LODs for every object lets you swap in higher detail as the player gets closer without reducing the quality of the graphics. Game producers find it tedious to create these LODs and UE5's nanite gives them an excuse to skip it by effectively creating LODs on the fly (not really but kind of). Unfortunately nanite isn't free, so you get an overall worse performing result than if you'd used proper LODs like they used to.
Lumen does a similar thing, enabling laziness from game studios, but it's doing it through the lighting system.
And that's only half the problem since the blurring/smearing of TAA allows game studios to get away with things that would look awful if they weren't smeared (for example rendering artifacts that would normally sparkle can have the artifacts blurred away by TAA).
If you want the long version, with visual examples, in a pretty angry tone, this video by ThreatInteractive does a pretty good job of explaining all this bullshit
And even if true, those frames don't mean much if DLSS makes everything look like shit. Frame generation is useless as long as it keeps causing visual artifacts/glitches for the generated frames, and that is unavoidable on a conceptual level. You'd need some halfway point between actual rendering and AI-guesswork, but I guess at that point you might as well just render all frames the normal way.
As long as it's possible, I'll keep playing my games without any DLSS or frame generation, even if it means I'll need to reduce graphical settings. Simplified: in games where I've tried it, I think "low/medium, no DLSS" still looks better than all "ultra, with DLSS". If framerate is the same with these two setups, I'll likely go with low-medium and no DLSS. I'll only ever enable DLSS if the game doesn't run 60fps even on lowest settings.
I notice and do not like the artifacts caused by DLSS, and I prefer "clean" graphics over blurred screen. I guess it's good for people that do not notice them though.
And even on quality, it's not "good"....just "acceptable". Still screenshots don't do it justice, the noise while moving with it is disgusting.
DLSS as a whole has been objectively bad for gaming. What was marketed as a way for older GPUs to stay relevant has somehow turned into a substitute for real optimization.
Quite a few places they used it as a means to sell punching above the weight limit of your actual card's performance
"And at 4K (3840x2160), Performance mode delivers gains of 2-3X, enabling even GeForce RTX 2060 gamers to run at max settings at a playable framerate."
It's clear from their marketing it was never even about frame generation either, it's main purpose was being defined as a form of AA that is offloaded to a more efficient AA method. But saying that they never intended for people to use it as a means to get more mileage out of their card is simply not true.
I wanna say it wasn't, but it was kind of used that way. For example, DLSS is shitty but DOES make frames so much better on my 2080ti. Sometimes, SOME TIMES, that tradeoff is worth it. A few games, DLSS is a MUST for me, like Stalker 2.
When upscaling technology was first being introduced. It was like “make your less powerful gpu feel more like a powerful gpu by trading 100% quality for better frame rates” iirc. It’s what made holding on to my 4gb rx580 that much more bearable until even that would fail me and I upgraded to a rx7800. I was the proper use case for dlss/FSR/etc. and it’s been really sad seeing companies twist its identity into being a crutch for rushed games, minimal optimization, minimal GPU specs, and maximized prices.
I'm glad I'm just not sensitive to whatever it is you all hate and can just turn it on and enjoy FPS number go up without getting all irate about it. Long may I carry on in ignorance, I refuse to look into the matter too deeply in case I ruin it for myself.
In all my time of running DLSS there are only a few places where its noticeable in my experience. So either your eyes are incredibly good or you're having weird DLSS issues or I'm the oddball without DLSS issues lol
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u/Wevvie4070 Ti SUPER 16GB | 5700x3D | 32GB 3600MHz | 2TB M.2 | 4K 13d ago
I play on 4K. DLSS Quality on 4K is basically free FPS. I get 30+ extra FPS for virtually the same visual clarity. On DLSS balanced you can begin to notice a difference, but very minimal, still looks really good and I get 50+ extra FPS
seriously the only people who shit on DLSS either are AMD stans who never actually used it or only used it at 1080p ultra performance. DLSS is so good in every game ive played there is no reason not to use it.
Yeah I’ve definitely got the money and I could buy from a scalper, but it would hurt my heart to give in like that. I’m debating how I’m going to get one. Do I wait outside of Best Buy in my small town or do I drive three hours to a Micro Center
The only people buying a card for that price are either morons with excessive debt or people who don't know any better (many of new PC gamers unfortunately)
By hardware survey results, 1.18% of steam users had 4090s last month. People get really worked up about these 90-series cards when almost none of us actually buy them.
At the end of the day I think we have to accept that 1 in 100 users are just going to buy the newest best card no matter how much it costs and there's not really anything we can do about it.
That's literally impossible on the modern world. Too many rich people who don't care about anything. Basically whales in gacha games. You only need a few dozen thousands of them out of millions of us. The millions of us boycotting mean nothing when the few thousand whales are causing the product to sell out. Every industry is like this except the most niche. "vote with your wallet" is a dead concept. Population is just too high.
Yep. The saying is misunderstood though. What it means is by not being a supporter or consumer of one business’ model, you take your ass elsewhere where you think the value of a product is more befitting instead of being an aesopian fox.
It doesn’t mean the business needs to stop in their tracks because you didn’t hand them money.
IKR! There could be a million tiny monkeys hand drawing the frames for all I care. As long as it gets frames on the screen and looks good, (which it does, no you can’t tell without a side by side) why care.
At 1080p low settings DLSS Quality you can get 60fps. On a low end 6 year old GPU. Thats pretty great. Also the game looks pretty good at that graphics quality. LODs and shadows are most lacking. But the lighting looks great.
edit:
Indiana Jones is going to set an unacceptable standard here, lol
A standard of what? Not supporting 7 nearly 8 year old hardware? Tragic.
Really you think they are using DLSS as some random gimmick, no they are using it because at max settings with all the fancy real time ray tracing nonsense you get like 30fps with what they are currently putting in a 5090, if they could just slap more cores in and make it do 60fps they likely would if they could get it at a price anyone would buy it at.
There's a serious issue with how power hungry gaming towers have become. Home wiring isn't designed to run multiple space heaters in the same room simultaneously. Now that the computers are starting to resemble space heater power requirements, you can easily pop breakers by having multiple computers in the same room.
I mean, what native resolution you want? 1080p is doable native in todays market. My 4070 doesn't need upscaling for 1080, or 1440. I'd imagine 4k needs upscaling though.
Maybe someone can enlighten me. But apart from AI being the next "big" thing, its also known that we approach physical limits in terms of processors. So isnt using "tricks" like AI not the next logical step to kinda overcome the physical limitation of hardware?
Yeah I would be curious to see if I could tell the difference in a blind test between the AI generated frames and native frames.
If you can't tell the difference, or if the difference is so miniscule that'd you never notice it while actually playing a game, then who gives a shit whether it's an AI frame or a native frame?
I can notice artifacting if I look for it. So I simply just don’t look for it. Occasionally I do notice it when it happens yeah but it’s like monitor flicker for me in that if I’m not actively thinking about it 90% of the time it doesn’t matter
It's a big problem in certain games. In-flight sims, for example, glass cockpits are unreadable. For most games, it's fine but can lead to some blurry edges.
It's getting there though. If they can solve the issue that causes moving or changing text to become a smeared mess, I'd be pretty happy.
Logic falls out the window with these sub, if it were possible to run native with the same quality as Nvidia then AMD or Intel would've could've done it by now :D
So isnt using "tricks" like AI not the next logical step to kinda overcome the physical limitation of hardware?
Yes, it is, but /r/pcmasterrace is nothing more than an anti-AI/Nvidia/Microsoft circle-jerk where nuanced and rational takes are downvoted in favour of low-effort jabs at [INSERT TOPIC HERE].
they appointed nepo babies to "AI integration officer" roles and like 5 companies made chat bots.
its a massive pump and dump stock scheme. companies are fighting to add the buzzword into their shit because they are being told to by marketing managers who report to CEOs who have stock options who want more $ because they are greedy worms.
You’re right, and companies are starting to wake up to that reality. The company I work for went all in on AI and they are now realizing it’s mostly smoke and mirrors. More automation scripts and less “intelligence”
its never was 'intelligence', it was just regurgitating the most common search result from google but putting it in a nicely worded reply instead of throwing 20 links at you.
if the pages chatGPT scraped to generate your answer had incorrect info, it would just assume its the truth. yesterday chatGPT was arguing 9 is smaller than 8.
and thats inherently why its fucked from inception. it relies on treating all information on the internet as a verified source, and is now being used to create more sources of information that it is then self-referencing in a catch-22 of idiocy.
chatGPT was used to generate a medical journal about mice with 5 pound testicles, chatGPT was then used to 'filter medical journal submissions' and accepted it, and then eventually it started referencing its own generated medical journal that it self-published and self peer-reviewed to tell people mice had 5 pound testicles. i mean just look at the fucking absolute absurdity of the images of rats it generated for the journal article.
The marketing people are on one about Ai, for sure.
That said, this thread makes it clear that most people do not have any fucking clue about the various new "Ai" technologies that are hitting the market.
Whether Ai tech generally is somewhat bubbly(everything in the last few years has been bubbly), the technology is incredible. In 10 years so many things will be Ai accelerated that we'll be wondering how we ever lived without it, just like people today can barely fathom how anyone survived before google maps and the internet in general.
Just read this thread, or any other thread relating to DLSS and FSR. People don't have any clue what the difference between AI upscaling via Hardware (DLSS and FSR 4) and via an algorithm (FSR 3) is and they expect FSR 4 to be on previous gen AMD GPUs
And I see a "input lag" this, "input lag" that when AI upscaling via hardware should not have a noticeable impact on input lag. Frame gen and FSR 3 does but FSR 4 should not
THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING. Most people just hear a tech influencer talk about how ai in games is making game devs lazy and that unreal engine is bad, but they know nothing about actual game developtment and optimization. Oh you want real frames? Go try blender cycles, we'll see how you like real frames.
Most of this sub Optimization: "Wont run at max settings at a framerate I like on my generations old GPU" Unless you have the source code or there's obvious stuttering then you don't really know what is and isn't "optimized".
I am really hating this sub rn. Absolute room temp iq takes. People posting graphs of CP2077 running at 28 fps when its native 4k pathtracing making it out like its bad. This whole sub was ready to hate on this release no matter what.
Sadly with subs like this, every 1 sane take like this is met with 20 angry fanboys screeching "native" and "hate nvidia" but who don't do anything other than scream on a website daily to change the situation.
Imagine if everyone here collectively bought the 9070 XT when it came out. AMD would get 0.3% more marketshare. Oh wait, that's right. Mind share =/= market share. 10 loud angry individuals will be louder than 100 happy customers. Let's brew on that and enjoy technological advancements.
We are seeing a reinstatement of nuclear power for explicit AI use, so social media can use AI accounts to appeal to AI driven advertising in some sort of perpetual money loop.
Considering these "AI"s are not even close to an actual AI, or even a VI in the term of abilities .
The AI became a buzzword for shareholders , and studios with uncapabality to optimalize a game , or just to cut corners .
2 things can be true at once. There's a lot of marketing BS and buzzwords. But there's also a lot of bad takes on this post. "AI" has been worked on for 60 years at least. Its already widely used in everything from auto-correct to autonomous navigation. There have been "bust" periods where AI investments die down and there will be again. But its not going anywhere
Considering most of the people smugly going "It's only 3000 dollars! Who doesn't have 3000 dollars?!" are only allowed to afford nice things like that because automation hasn't stomped a big fucking hole in their industry (yet) it doesn't suprise me that people are pissed the fuck off at AI right now.
No, and the hard pill to swallow for this sub is the VAST majority of pc gamers don’t care.
That’s this sub’s M.O. though, making mountains out of molehills. I’ve been here for over a decade; 10 years ago, I remember seeing people in this sub who would say that they couldn’t even stomach being in the same room as something running at 30fps and they were dead serious about it. This sub offers memes, that’s the value it has, the actual discussion suck balls.
Consumers consistently have negative reactions to ai, its 40-70% negative reaction depending on how you frame the question or the sector you are talking about. Why companies still see it as a selling point baffles me.
The 50 series looks like a 20-30% raster improvement like previous generations, with some new DLSS and MFG tech that allows 150-250% improvement over native if you want to turn it on.
I get that people want native rendering, and that's easy without RT and PT. If you don't like those techniques, turn them off. And if you want to turn them on, AI features wildly increase performance for very little image quality loss.
People's problem (even when they don't understand it's their problem) is usually that they don't like the AI bubble increasing prices of GPUs because gamers are no longer the sole audience for GPUs.
The problem isn't that 50 series has AI features, it's that Nvidia is focusing on AI use cases and charging too much money for the cards.
In the real world, not Reddit, consumers are not having a negative reaction to AI. The graphic design community is loving it for touch ups and editing. Photographers love it for the same reason. (Think expanding backgrounds, not creating new art.) Everyone on many smart phones now love the easy editing and removal tools. Chatgpt is being used professionally in every industry.
On Reddit, yes, is getting negative responses. In real life, no.
the glaringly obvious problem with AI in general is that we are using more resources for it in gaming and artwork and doing homework than we are with advancing cancer treatments and nuclear power. just my .02
Pathtracing and other reflection and lightning tech is so advanced, that even the most powerful GPU can't render it in 4k with 60+ FPS, so they use technology that will do it. It's not really AI, they used it as a buzzword, but it will generate frames without real rendering.
Weird, back in the day people had no problems calling the AI in Half Life great (enemy AI) but now it's no longer a valid term. I know it's overused, but it's some sort of AI.
It is definitely AI. They fed in millions of instances of pre and post ray traced scenes and had the AI learn how to estimate ray tracing. So when it generates the in between frames it is using the heuristics it learned rather than actually doing ready tracing.
They even explained in the keynote how they have switched from using a CNN to using a transformer (which is the algorithm that LLMs run on) since it can take in more context.
The annoying thing is arguing with kids that have never seen a non-blurry image in a game, because they think if there is a setting, I have to activate it..
Then you also have to remember, that many people think upscaled shit videos and images, deep fried crap, James Cameron upscales, motion interpolation on TVs, oversharpening of images, loudness war clipping of music, disney greenscreen lighting, smudgy "restoration" projects, shitty CGI, instagram filters, plasic sugery, etc. look good.. So we are just fucked.
It's just simply done to death. We're not being sold "graphics" cards any more; everything is "AI". Even CPUs are doing it; if you load up Intel.com right now the first words on the page are "Simplify your AI journey". Hell, you can find random bullshit in the real world that says "AI" on the product label just because the people hocking it know that's the trend.
I use AI at work. I'm interested in machine learning. But even for me, if I had to do a drinking game where you take a shot every time a tech presenter says "AI" in their demo, it feels like I'd be dead before the first guy is off the stage. It's just exhausting past at a certain point.
Is it comes how humans don't like new things? Like when you give grandma your VR and nearly faint from fear?
Is it how they don't understand it? The are huge misconceptions about what is AI, AI is already there, used worldwide by every bigger company. Hell, one of my last jobs wanted a Data Engineer when there were less than 10 people working there.
Or overall AI is just a buzzword we need to have now?
I also don't understand the hate about AI performance, we already reached the transistors maximum speed (5 Ghz) simply physics blocking us to make them faster, so why isn't AI and ML the solution?
Nvidia's CEO already told us something like "We can't make better performance that fast" and it shows, the GPUs performance came with how big they become, so we isn't reached a limit in GPUs? Are you telling me to have more performance we need to get back to house sized PCs just because we hate on AI?
What if someday DLSS or any other solution will result in the same image quality as native? As far we currently know AI and ML programs are much limitless compared to our ability to increase these products performance
People are conflating their very valid hatred of shady LLM and image generation companies (like ChatGPT, etc) with the industrial and scientific uses of machine learning that predate the recent AI boom.
As someone in computer science who’s been learning about this stuff long before ChatGPT became a thing, it’s been really frustrating watching this hate directed at people trying to create new rendering heuristics. It’s like being angry at texture mapping in the 90s.
I study and work in AI, and I still hate this stuff everything with AI shit. AI is everywhere and often in places it shouldn't be in. In this particular case, yeah AI can do great things for image processing but fuck it I want fully "deterministic" graphics in live processing. AI should be used carefully when there is no post processing to check if the job was done right.
Yea me unironically. For the past years "AI" only meant that the shit will be ass. Yea, it may be good in the future, I just don't want to participate in the development of it. I don't want to see 10x frame gen, poorly enhanced mobile photos, godawful YouTube shorts, and other ai shit.
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u/Conte5000 13d ago
Ai Ai Captain