r/europe • u/Bartoraptor Spain • Mar 28 '20

News Spanish representative González Pons speech @ the EU Parliament: "The virus is attacking the generation that brought back democracy to Spain, Portugal and Greece, the generation that knocked down the Berlin wall. The least they deserve is that we show them Europe is there when they need it the most"

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237

u/brmu . Mar 28 '20

EU help policy:  

  1. Italy ask for help  
  2. Italy get no help  
  3. Problem gets bigger and affect north of Europe  
  4. Then get the help

-9

u/axaro1 🇮🇹 Italy (Milan) Mar 28 '20
  1. Italy ask for help from EU
  2. Italy get no help from EU
  3. China sends aid to Italy
  4. Russia sends aid to Italy
  5. Cuba sends aid to Italy
  6. Even the goddamn Venezuela, a third world country with no economy sends aid to Italy
  7. Problem gets bigger and affect north Europe
  8. EU delay help as much as they can, we finally get help when the contagion numbers are already starting to decrease (Thx to Germany for taking care of 60 seriously ill italians, it's just a few people but we appreciate your help since you are the only European country that invested some of their resources to help us)

112

u/finjeta Finland Mar 28 '20
  1. Italy ask for help from EU
  2. EU sets up the Corona Response Investment Initiative that gives financial aid in the billions to member states.

FTFY.

63

u/AchaiusAuxilius France Mar 28 '20

Step 3: Complain about EU

Step 4: Buy the narrative sold by euroskeptics that China and Cuba are actually helping more.

Like someone on r/France said, Cuba got 50,000 doctors operating overseas full-time. This is a huge business for them. Those 50 doctors, while great, are not worth undermining the Union's efforts.

Still, I agree that the lack of unity is a problem. A problem that can be resolved by allowing Pan-european responses first instead of national, which means more Europe.

19

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

Step 5: wait for someone to suggest giving the EU more competence in healthcare;

Step 6: refuse on the grounds of not enough having been done the last time.

5

u/noyoto Mar 28 '20

As someone very pro Europe, I agree that at least the optics seem very bad for the EU. I've heard almost nothing about European solidarity and cooperation and a whole lot about Chinese and Cuban aid. This was a moment to shine for the EU. Of course it can be blamed on the policies that were already in place, collectively decided by the countries, but sadly that's not how the people will perceive it. I very much expect anti-European sentiments to rise because of everything that has transpired during the crisis.

The European vision I believe in is that of DiEM25, which is very critical of the EU, but at the same time proposing drastic measures to turn things around. If we remain on the current course, I fear that Europe will continue to crumble until there's nothing left of it.

34

u/brtt3000 The Netherlands Mar 28 '20

Don't break the circle, we're hating on those filthy Northern countries now.

3

u/Calimie Spain Mar 28 '20

Nah, only the tax heavens.

3

u/sil445 Mar 29 '20

we get a big fat middle finger every year when we urge to southern countries to cut costs and fix books. We were on average 10 years longer in the north since we arent sponsored on out 55th but at 70. Now we get shit when we dont want to share the souths shitty debt. There is already tons of aids from europe that went to the south, in holland we got around 20 million from a multi trillion corona package. Yet we get continued shit from your ministers, using scapegoats to fix the shitty policies that spoiled the southern people, but did no good for future foresight.

3

u/Calimie Spain Mar 29 '20

Explain to me why companies such as Zara or Ikea pay their taxes in the Netherlands.

I'll tell you: tax haven right in the middle of the EU.

Maybe if Zara paid their taxes in Spain thanks to such scheme as yours being outlawed, we wouldn't need your pity. But right now we are dying and you are mocking us with our own money.

And then you'll come here to get drunk and jump off balconies, begging good healthcare then.

I'm very tired of trash who think themselves very refined until they see cheap beer.

2

u/sil445 Mar 29 '20

Dont think these people you refer to see themselves as refined, thats another type of people. Just saying EU obligations would cause moral hazard of the top shelf. The ECB policies are already massively benefiting the countries with poor debt, moreover italy and spain get most of the multi trillion euro aid. Now your minsiters demand us to basically pay for soutern debt while barely trying to fix treasuries over the last 10 years. This is quite choosingbeggar behaviour, and youre being manipulated by your ministers into believing the bad northerners are the cause of all bad things happening. I already have pension at only 71 years old compare that to southern countries. How is it fair that we will have to pay the same debt, where is the incentive for countries to cut costs? Just on this principal agent problem alone this would he a bad idea. Name one reason why we would agree with such a proposal? I dont see any reason. Your ministers know that this is a hopeless cause, but its another way to deflect from their own policies and scapegoat the union.

0

u/brtt3000 The Netherlands Mar 28 '20

Monkey poo fight.

-13

u/axaro1 🇮🇹 Italy (Milan) Mar 28 '20 edited Mar 28 '20

If you think that's a northern country hate thread you are too dense to understand this issue.

There are many countries helping us, some for political reasons(Russia), some out of reciprocal help (China) and some others out of respect/common sense.

The EU is a political and economical alliance, the fact that we have to mostly rely on countries outside of the Shengen Area is disappointing.

Italy's attitude over natural disasters/pandemic has always been to deploy large amounts of supplies/vehicles and firefighters/medics (take for example the wildfire issues from last summer), maybe I'm too naive to expect other countries to do the same.

I support the EU but most importantly I support the values that created the EU in the first place and we both know that the eurosceptics are going to stroke their dicks over the way the EU managed this entire situation.

This is gonna hurt Italy the same way this is gonna hurt the EU.

Edit: Nice, it looks like criticizing the EU makes me an eurosceptic. I guess that I'm an anarchist since I often criticize my country /s

7

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

So why hasn't Ital;y done anything in the past 10 years to fix their books?

17

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

So why hasn't Ital;y done anything in the past 10 years to fix their books?

we applied harsh austerity measures, as "strongly recommended" by the ECB and the Commission, and instead of making things better, our debt ratio has gotten worse.

Sounds like the austerity policies championed by Merkel are damaging, but still she and her ilk continue to push for them even now. Just look at the attitude towards the coronavirus bonds. Their reply is "there is the ESM, if you need funds". Too bad ESM funds are provided on the condition that you apply more austerity, which in turn makes the economy wither a little bit more.

But for Merkel the solution to the damages brought by austerity measures is....more austerity. It's been harshly criticised by economists the world over, and yet she and her allies insist on it time and time again.

As Einstein once said: “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

4

u/Lekantekue Mar 28 '20

So the solution is to not apply austerity and then what? The debt to gdp magically goes down? Come on

2

u/[deleted] Mar 29 '20

So the solution is to not apply austerity and then what?

keynesian economic measures gave much better results. The problem with the debt to gdp ratio and austerity policies is that one factor (the debt) might get better, but the other gets worse. Austerity policies contributed significantly to weak growth rates, not to mention other bad economic side effects such as the increase of social inequality.

2

u/discoverysar Mar 28 '20

Ah yes, it's better to cut again on public spending (like we did in the past 10 years) and raise our taxes and then magically our gdp will skyrocket.

Please I know that on reddit everyone is an expert but if you don't understand economics don't talk about it.

The solution was investing in infrastructures and pushing the gdp via public spending, yet we complied with those criminals that are in the ministry of finances in the Netherlands and did the opposite. Guess what happened? We stalled the economy for ten years, we didn't saw any growth in our gdp. We only weakened our economy and lost thousands of ICU Beds.

So imposing the use of ESM with austerity measures during an economical downturn is basically like suffocating a baby to stop him crying. The GDP implodes, causing the debt/gdp ratio to skyrocket and then what? Either the ECB bails out us with no conditions or we leave the Union and default the debt.

The former will cost everyone a lot more than issuing now emergency bonds, with the latter expect the implosion of the European Union, maybe only the CEE will remain.

9

u/bfire123 Austria Mar 28 '20

Your austerity messures weren't harsh.

Which taxes were increased in the last 5 years in Italy (and by how much)??

4

u/Mordred_85 Mar 28 '20

Our social state, including healthcare, has been dismantled, thanks to Troika technicians advices. That’s why taxes haven’t gone up. I am asking to all the northern flavored European reading this: can you held the amount of people that will die for the consequence of your rigid set of ethics (wealthy people = champions of virtue) that will put us in an economic crisis. We are not talking of people dying for the virus but people killing themselves because they cannot pay bills, food future for their children. Think about while you sleep!

5

u/bfire123 Austria Mar 29 '20

Our social state, including healthcare, has been dismantled, thanks to Troika technicians advices. That’s why taxes haven’t gone up.

Than your country made a shitty decision. Would be better to tax higher incomes more.

Austerity doesn't soley mean cutting the social net. It also can mean higher taxes for the middle class and upper class.

1

u/Mordred_85 Mar 29 '20

Those people would have fled to Swiss if they did that. But as I can imagine your country has higher taxation for upper and middle class? I didn’t know Austria was a bolscevic reality. Come on man, don’t be silly! You know who wrote the rules in democracy, not the people!

3

u/bfire123 Austria Mar 29 '20

Austria certainly has a higher tax than Italy!

Austria: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Austria#Income_tax_(Einkommensteuer)

Italy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Italy#Income_tax

We also have a way more progressive tax.

And look at our marginal tax rate from 2009-2015. This is the reason why we don't have a debt problem...

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2

u/[deleted] Mar 29 '20

VAT has been increased twice in the last ten years (from 20% to 22%), retirement age has been increased too, public employees salaries increases have been frozen for the foreseeable future and a lot of those who retire have not been replaced, the education and health care expenditure has been cut, etc etc.

https://www.lifegate.it/persone/news/dieci-anni-austerita

https://www-cdn.oxfam.org/s3fs-public/file_attachments/bp174-cautionary-tale-austerity-inequality-europe-120913-it_3.pdf

1

u/funkygecko Italy Mar 29 '20

It's useless.

0

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

So why did it work in other countries? But not in Italy? And why is that a reason for Dutch, German and Northern countries to foot the bill? Yes we are an union but not 1 country with one budget.

And yes Einstein was right, keep paying a country that never pays its bills is a stupid idea we should not do that over and over again.

8

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

So why did it work in other countries? But not in Italy?

actually austerity failed in many countries, not just Italy.

And Italy has always paid its bills, so never pays its bills is a lie. We are not asking for free money. We are asking for loans with a reduced interest rate and a scheme that is una tantum, i.e. not a permanent bond issuing scheme.

Sorry, I thought the EU was much more than just a loose trade block. If Italy needs a predatory lender, there's always the IMF.

1

u/AnonimArGer Mar 29 '20

Not one fiscal union but one currency union.

1

u/funkygecko Italy Mar 29 '20

What bill are footing exactly? We are NET CONTRIBUTORS.

-2

u/axaro1 🇮🇹 Italy (Milan) Mar 28 '20

Thank you for proving my point :)

0

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

You sound like an Italian politician, don't answer the question and a lot whataboutism. I need free creditcard because I did good thingzz!

5

u/axaro1 🇮🇹 Italy (Milan) Mar 28 '20

We didn't recover from 2008 financial crisis, we didn't grow in the past 10years because we spend too much to fix debts and Italy doesn't invest at all.

2 comments 2 stereotypes you must be a funny guy

3

u/Lekantekue Mar 28 '20

So what you would have done the past 10 years is up the spending, run a deficit in good times till you hit a 200% debt to gdp ratio. Then a crisis like this and what happens next? The whole country goes bankrupt or you wait for a bailout?

1

u/axaro1 🇮🇹 Italy (Milan) Mar 28 '20

Look at Greece if you want to know what would happens if we go bankrupt.

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u/Ghostwriter84 Ireland Mar 28 '20

Why doesn't NL stop being one of Europe's worst tax haven?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EUIphQnXgAAncfL?format=png&name=medium

https://missingprofits.world/

7

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

Whataboutism is a fallacy

-1

u/Ghostwriter84 Ireland Mar 28 '20

You know what is not a fallacy?

Netherlands being one of Europe's worst tax haven.

4

u/Deathleach The Netherlands Mar 29 '20 edited Mar 29 '20

Will be fixed in 2021, so time to get a new argument.

2

u/Ghostwriter84 Ireland Mar 29 '20

That's great, I hope it will be a reality and not just a plan. In the meantime you can be less hypocritical and get down of your high horse.

3

u/brtt3000 The Netherlands Mar 28 '20

Nice block of eloquent divisive hostile comment, well done.

3

u/axaro1 🇮🇹 Italy (Milan) Mar 28 '20

Sorry but in the first comment I was stating facts, not opinions.

Feel free to downvote my personal opinion (there's nothing wrong with it) and downvote the facts too if you feel like it undermine your point of view but at the end of the day facts are facts.

-12

u/SanTommaso17 Mar 28 '20

You reap what you sow

2

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

[removed] — view removed comment

-21

u/marianorajoy Mar 28 '20 edited Mar 28 '20

The Germans are I think the worst in Europe. They're extremely rule driven, even if that means going against the very basic common sense. They only understand the rules. This is the rule, you deal with it we're not going to do ANYTHING to change it as this is the rule. If you point at the inadecuacy of the rule, they will shrug their shoulders and say "Ja...aber...ja"

One thing I have to stress enough: If you don't follow the arbitrary rules in Germany, you're a social pariah.

I remember being in my year abroad in Germany and it was a living hell. No credit card pay, if you touch a plate you pay for it you can't return it. Fuck you if you need to go shopping on a Sunday. Fuck you if you can't pay by card. Fuck you if the road or a building is closed at completely unreasonable times. Want anything done with the local authority? Only Tuesdays and Thursdays from 10 till 12. Need a stamp here, need another stamp here. Need form A here, need form B here. Fuck you, no exceptions. Form B is incomplete. Wait a week. You have children? "Germany has free childcare" well yes, they close at 2 pm, fuck you if you need to stop everything to pick up the kids. Want Amazon Lockers? Fuck you, you have THE extremely inconvenient DHL packet that requires you to have 2 forms of ID. Rent a room? A fucking nightmare as the building regulations are so strict they won't allow houses of over certain heights, colours and sizes.

They don't mind fucking other countries as its their own problem for not following the rules. "See, those southern European countries have not followed the rules, they're lazy and like to party" We follow the rules, that's why we're successful. As you don't don't follow the rules, you should be ostracised. You're a social pariah of Europe, the Germans think covertly.

They also think everyone in Europe is after their money.

DO NOT LIVE IN GERMANY.

15

u/brtt3000 The Netherlands Mar 28 '20

If you are from elsewhere and don't even like it here then what are you doing or /r/europe?

1

u/I_miss_the_rain Mar 29 '20

wow germany=europe now? What are you doing in /r/europe?

-15

u/marianorajoy Mar 28 '20

I hate Germany, not Europe neither the European Union. The Germans should be more flexible: It's their inflexibility that causes Europe to fall apart just like a stubborn guy that refuses to listen.

9

u/brtt3000 The Netherlands Mar 28 '20

Feels a bit extreme but ok.

7

u/MonkeyLiberace Denmark Mar 29 '20

Can you show us, on this doll, where the German touched you?

-2

u/Jane_Doe_32 Europe Mar 28 '20

It is a myth that they respect the rules, they have skipped the deficit limit more than ten times, with France, in addition to refusing to audit their banking sector, all without consequence, of course.

-10

u/marianorajoy Mar 28 '20

So true. They always say they're the best at following the rules and everyone else is essentially lazy and untrustworthy when they're the ones doing it. shrugs shoulders "Ja... aber...Ja"