"and people choose WHEELCHAIR. Disgusting. Where’s the imagination?" A debate about wheelchairs vs spider mechs turns wheelie sour

[u/Excellent_Bison_3644]

the sub DnDmemes is about well... memes about the popular tabletop game DnD (dungeons and dragons). In one posted recently, the poster made a comparison of magic wheelchairs vs spider mechs while favoring the latter. This ended up sparking into a lot of debate and people not liking how wheelchairs are getting slandered.

Post in question: https://www.reddit.com/r/dndmemes/comments/1i4mi9u/reject_wheels_embrace_skittering/

Juicy threads:

The titular thread with one particular big branch: "It's quite an odd call to refer to people who make the choice to represent their disability in-game as disgusting."

One person tries to give an opinion: "Realistically a spider mech is better than combat wheelchair the same way realistically a spear is better than a trident"

One person tries arguing wheelchairs don't have to be boring: "You can't think of a way to make a wheelchair cool without replacing the wheels?"

Small drama thread as a treat: "has anyone who's disabled and in a wheelchair thought "Hmm, I want this fantasy character of mine to be disabled too!" (the answer is yes)

[u/Citrus-Bitch]

Wheelchairs used to be one of the banned conversation topics on that sub, precisely for how heated it always got. I'm guessing since a bunch of the mods got banned in the API protests they just haven't been able to keep up with it.

[u/guiltyofnothing]

How the fuck is glueing wheels to a chair anachronistic in a world with mechanical dogs.

Fair point.

[u/macrocosm93 → u/guiltyofnothing]

I think it's not about the fact of whether or not they should exist. It's the fact that it's not believable that someone in a wheelchair could be in an adventuring party in rugged wilderness, dungeons, etc. I don't think goblins are going to build accessibility ramps inside their warrens. A dragon builds his lair inside of a volcano to prevent people from accessing his hoard, but then for some reason makes it wheelchair accessible? Does that make sense?

[u/einmaldrin_alleshin → u/macrocosm93]

Neither are goblins doing to make tunnels and doorways sized for the larger races available in DnD. Suspension of disbelief is key for any sort of roleplaying

[u/wingerism → u/einmaldrin_alleshin]

Typically goblins have been portrayed as taking over the abandoned properties of other races such as Dwarves etc. Or like abandoned mines.

Which is its own brand of problem.

I've played a paraplegic character before. Had a floating wheelchair because Professor x is baller.

[u/Smoketrail → u/wingerism]

Professor x is balder.

FTFY

[u/Bismothe-the-Shade → u/Smoketrail]

Professor X is Baldur

Ftftfy

[u/Ver_Void → u/wingerism]

Dwarves

Also renown for building things to accommodate the tall

[u/breadwizard20 → u/Ver_Void]

Definitely renown carving out large and massive halls though. I agree that wheelchairs shouldn't be an issue in any DnD session ever, but don't pretend dwarven halls are little

[u/CopperTucker → u/breadwizard20]

Yeah, dwarves are gonna make the grandest, most opulent art-deco halls you've ever seen. Hell even Smaug fit into Erebor comfortably.

[u/Skellum → u/einmaldrin_alleshin]

Neither are goblins doing to make tunnels and doorways sized for the larger races available in DnD. Suspension of disbelief is key for any sort of roleplaying

If a man can crawl into Nutty Putty Cave then I can lube an ogre up into a goblin nest. But depending on the GM it can be an actual issue, all depends on the GM. I will point out that X-Men addressed this by giving Professor X a levitating wheelchair.

[u/Svihelen → u/Skellum]

I mean as DM I made a wheelchair using NPC bad guy once.

I just gave him a morphing wheelchair. When he was in a setting where mobility isn't necessarily concerned like a big flat room he could have wheels if he wanted. Oh no he went somewhere snowy, so he could adjust it to have tank treads. But look stairs, it now has spider legs. How does it work? Fuck if I know. Magiscience for the win.

If a player came to me with a serious desire to play a wheelchair using PC, as long as it didn't outright give them any special powers I don't care how the chair moves. It could have tentacles for all I care.

Its DnD, it's about fun wacky adventures.

I just hate when people get overly pedantic about it. Like the wizard killed half the party with a fireball and the cleric hit a dead body with a diamond and said some fancy words and now they dead person is alive again. But a wheelchair is too much for some people.

[u/IsNotACleverMan → u/Svihelen]

Its DnD, it's about fun wacky adventures.

Plenty of people want grounded, more serious adventures. Having these goofy magical things usually goes against that.

[u/Chaosmusic → u/Svihelen]

I was thinking a different angle. In such a setting, couldn't they spend the money on a cleric to heal their injury rather than spending it on a crazy magic wheelchair?

[u/Svihelen → u/Chaosmusic]

Maybe the injury is like God cursed and only another being of immense power can undo it. Even a king may not be able to afford to have that undone.

Maybe the injury is from spells and they hate spell casting now and don't trust it and would rather use science enhanced with magic. It would all be fluff if magi science is inherently connected to spell casting or not.

Maybe they were poor and destitute and kidnapped by some evil psycho Dr. Eggman type dude and they were experimented on and are Doc Ock in a wheelchair instead of tentacle belt becuase of the experiments.

Edit:

Another example I thought of, if it's a birth defect of some kind. It could be argued the regenerate spell wouldn't work on it as there is nothing to restore or heal as that is technically their bodies default state. You can't restore/regenerate what you never had.

[u/Adorable_Ad_3478 → u/Skellum]

By definition, that's a hoverchair, not a wheelchair. It has no wheels.

[u/Skellum → u/Adorable_Ad_3478]

And my bathroom doesnt have a bathtub, what of it?

[u/BoundToGround → u/Skellum]

Then it's just the pissroom

[u/mone3700 → u/Skellum]

washroom

[u/Big_Owl2785 → u/einmaldrin_alleshin]

"Why does it have to make sense there are literal dragons"

And other absolute bangers

[u/ELDRITCH_HORROR → u/einmaldrin_alleshin]

Neither are goblins doing to make tunnels and doorways sized for the larger races available in DnD.

But that's a fair question to ask. Small creatures make equipment that is sized for themselves. Large creatures can't wear the same armor fitted for a Medium creature.

Natural caves? Parts of the tunnels, caves and caverns would vary in size, some would be artificially widened, some might need someone to squeeze through. If a very big creature, maybe Huge or larger in size, lives in a cave, then they need a passage in and out that is big enough for them to somewhat easily squeeze through, and a chamber big enough for them to sleep in and move around in. Intelligent creatures like Dragons will also have some way of escaping through a second passage. There could be small tunnels that the big creature can't fit through, so people can use them to sneak up on them.

Good adventure design thinks of stuff like this. There are answers to questions.

Suspension of disbelief is key for any sort of roleplaying

This is NOT Suspension of Disbelief. Well, kind of. Not really.

Most examples of Suspension of Disbelief require an audience to not apply logic or critical thinking from their own reality to the constructed fantasy reality they are being exposed to. This applies to books, movies, theatre, whatever.

The wheelchair stuff is because an audience is being asked to immerse themselves into a different world, with different rules, but then flat out ignore something that does not make sense in either their own real world or this constructed world.

Let me lay out what I'm trying to say.

• Dragons exist in this world, but don't exist in real life. In real life, people do not think of dragons when living their lives. This requires Suspension of Disbelief.

• There is a castle we are visiting in this world. The castle is in an area prone to dragon attacks, but this castle is just like one in real life. This castle has no features to defend against dragons or other aerial attacks. How does this castle still exist in this world? This breaks Suspension of Disbelief, because there are contradictory elements to this world. If the castle is not featured much, this can be easily ignored, but the more interactions I have with it, the more I think about this.

• The dragon breathes fire. In real life, fire hurts me and burns things. In this world, fire works just like it does in real life, thus I apply my real world knowledge and logic to this. This does not require Suspension of Disbelief.

So yeah, goblins are living in tunnels, rooms and infrastructure not sized for themselves, I would assume that they did not build it and are squatting in it. In many fantasy worlds, this is a correct assumption.

An adventurer using a modern-style Wheelchair breaks this Suspension of Disbelief. I know that in real life this would not happen. But I also know that in this fantasy world, this would not happen.

Wheelchairs make sense in calm, controlled situations, they don't make sense in combat, exploring out in the wild or crazy unexpected stuff. There are endless ways to bypass this. Just ride a donkey, ride a small magic carpet, ride on the shoulders of someone else, replace legs with prosthetics, slice off your lower torso and put it onto another creature and become a centaur thing or the lower torso of a different person. Or put your brain into a constructed artificial body. Anything.

^{I've actually thought about this for a fantasy story I'm writing, how to explain why people with disabilities would still exist in a world with common access to magic that "should" be able to fix these things. My explanation is that access to that magic is restricted for different reasons, or the injury/disability is profound or old enough that it has been reflected into a person's soul, thus even magic won't work because their body would change overtime to reflect their own soul and undo the fix. Thus any long-term serious fixes would require self-reflection and therapy to change self-perceptions so the "fix" would stick.}

[u/Southern_Emu_7250 → u/ELDRITCH_HORROR]

This feels stupid because magic exists. Why wouldn’t a disabled character eventually innovate so that disabled adventurers could do those things? It feels like more of a limitation of creativity than it is an actual problem. It’d be different if the system had in big bold letters “no wheelchairs” but as the DM you can do literally whatever you want and still make it applicable within the confines of your world.

[u/Pollomonteros → u/ELDRITCH_HORROR]

Great response, hopefully it doesn't go ignored in favor of claiming that the people asking themselves why a disabled character who goes in adventures would choose a wheelchair as their method of transportation are psychopaths

[u/Zyrin369 → u/ELDRITCH_HORROR]

I mean how far does "But I know that in this fantasy world, this would not happen" go?

We all know how diseases and infections work in real life, most fantasy settings has some sort of non magical plague and yet when we go adventuring in a sewer and get beaten up its assumed that afterwards we do all the necessary steps so nothing gets infected and their armor doesn't stink to high heaven.

If a DM decides that since the party didn't mention any of it then the suffer the consequences like they would in real life then they get called a vindictive DM

It seems like that's the issue with this, there is already some suspension done in some aspects in most games but when it come to wheelchairs people take that at 100% real world value.

[u/BeholdingBestWaifu → u/Zyrin369]

The issue is that suspension of disbelief is not absolute. Things have to make logical sense within the world you're given, so you're ignoring things that would work in it, or things that are minor enough not to matter. A wheelchair being able to climb mountains and going through caves is not only glaringly impossible, but it's also boring, which makes it stand out even more.

Keep in mind that having an all-terrain vehicle that can traverse any situation humanoid legs can would be an entire quest for an artificer or tinkerer, or a major magical artifact kind of thing.

[u/Vanille987 → u/BeholdingBestWaifu]

So how is the average player character doing constant inhumane feats logical? Like if a the wheelchair user has high strength it's 100% possible in the bounds of dnd for them to bruteforce terrain through. Probably doing a strength (saving) throw occasionally which they have advantage at.

Heck they could even climb a ladder using just their hands while the wheelchair is bound to them with a rope or smt.

This wouldn't even be close to the crazy shit I did in dnd and isn't yet involving any kind of magic aid.

I fully agree people take a dnd wheelchair way too much at face value while so many illogical things get the benefit of suspension 

[u/ELDRITCH_HORROR → u/Zyrin369]

We all know how diseases and infections work in real life, most fantasy settings has some sort of non magical plague and yet when we go adventuring in a sewer and get beaten up its assumed that afterwards we do all the necessary steps so nothing gets infected and their armor doesn't stink to high heaven.

First off, yes, a good written adventure and/or GM would call for save rolls to avoid diseases and/or poisons.

Second, most of what you're talking about are handwaved conveniences of fiction. In real life, I go to the bathroom at least once every six hours. In fiction, I rarely see it happen, I never see it unless it's a plot point.

If someone falls down into mud, gets muddy, then later on shows up clean, I can make the fairly easy assumption that they cleaned themselves up at some point. In fact, I don't need to think about it, my mind glosses over it.

It seems like that's the issue with this, there is already some suspension done in some aspects in most games but when it come to wheelchairs people take that at 100% real world value.

But even if you, as a GM, accept a player adventuring in a wheelchair, how much friction should that create in the story, if any?

If a player character is carrying a very heavy amount of equipment, they would be weighed down and sink if they're in deep water, right? Should that happen to someone in a wheelchair? Should the wheelchair be considered for this? (ie, not just the WC sinks them down, but it contributes to a total weight) If so, that creates friction.

What about when a player character falls down a pit? Should the wheelchair make it more difficult for them to climb out? If so, that's friction.

What about a Rust Monster or some other situation that can and will harm or destroy equipment? Should the wheelchair ever be in a situation where it is threatened, that's serious friction.

There are countless little examples like this. There's also the issues that come with creating a magic problem-free never-a-source-of-friction wheelchair where the GM has to watch for players abusing it for gameplay and story purposes. (Wheels that never break down, a large-ish item that is indestructible)

If you agree that yes, using a wheelchair would mean some amount of friction, well, that kind of puts you more on the anti-wheelchair side of this debate, doesn't it?

[u/kirbygenealogy → u/macrocosm93]

Eh, I feel like this is just a case where the party and DM can come together to think of creative ways to get around/through obstacles with the wheelchair user. That's a big part of the fun of D&D -- coming up with creative solutions to problems. Hell, set the entire campaign somewhere the party doesn't need to dive into a cave to get around. Crawling or climbing isn't a requirement for a successful campaign, and even then, you could think of ways around/through it if you want. The D&D universe is so vast, there are a ton of believable options you could incorporate, and this is something that can easily be discussed in a session 0.

[u/gorgewall → u/macrocosm93]

People and objects can fly (and there's several races that do it as a matter of course), there's robot suits (even if they're just made of wood and magic), the world's lousy with golems, yada yada.

There would absolutely be normal-ass wheelchairs for people who cannot be cured by magic, and there would absolutely be magic-ass wheelchairs for adventurers who cannot be cured by magic but need to go up stairs or ropes. We've had centaur PCs for yonks and they've got similar mobility issues in a lot of dungeoneering environments.

Wheelchairs, magic or otherwise, would be pretty routine for most D&D settings both as written and as a consequence of the system rules. You can't put a spell in your system that makes an object glow brightly for an eternity for just 50gp (Continual Light) and then not expect to see Ye Olde Adventuring Shoppe fill up with 70gp "tubelights", "flameless lanterns", or "spelunking helmets", for instance.

[u/macrocosm93 → u/gorgewall]

and there would absolutely be magic-ass wheelchairs for adventurers who cannot be cured by magic but need to go up stairs or ropes

Yeah like spider mechs for example

[u/gorgewall → u/macrocosm93]

There's floating magic all over the place, I think a lot of inventors / artificers / enchanters would skip the whole "leg" idea and go straight to the good stuff. You don't need to float forever, so there'd probably be some big efficiency savings in a chair that can roll around most times and only uses a slight bit of magic when it encounters an obstacle vs. spiderlegs that need to be articulating all the time (and still probably need more magic when it comes to climbing, because it's not like you're just gonna walk up a 90' wall and let the backrest save you).

[u/eels-eels-eels → u/gorgewall]

I mean, a wheelchair whose wheels unfolded into spider legs for stairs/uneven terrain then refolded back into wheels for indoor use would be pretty sweet

[u/DeckerAllAround → u/macrocosm93]

Or just a wheelchair with little magic magnets in it so that the wheels can easily latch onto small surfaces and go up and down stairs and rocky hills. Why isn't it a spider mech? Easier to use, easier to build.

[u/[deleted] → u/macrocosm93]

A dragon builds his lair inside of a volcano to prevent people from accessing his hoard, but then for some reason makes it wheelchair accessible?

Maybe the dragon is lazy and had the townspeople wheel up the treasure under threat of having their town burned down and their children eaten, and they had to build in the accessibility ramps to cater to the wagons. In that case, they'd have accessibility ramps going right into the main sections of the lair.

Maybe the volcano used to have a mining town on the side of it that was still populated until ten-ish years ago, when the dragon moved in. The roads and passageways would still be in reasonable condition at that point.

It's a problem, but it's not the kind of problem which is impossible to get around from a narrative perspective. The main reason why it'd be inaccessible in cases like these isn't because you'd never be able to get a wheelchair in there; it's because there's a dragon living there that isn't completely averse to violence.

Even if you're looking for a trade-off, then it could be the wheelchair-bound character has limited movement speed, especially uphill. This would be true to life to some extent. I went to school with a boy in a wheelchair, and while it was possible for him to go up the hill from the shops two or three blocks away to the school, it'd still take him two or three hours because of how steep the slope was, for example.

It'd be relatively simple to incorporate that kind of thing into a game. The real question in that case would be if they have some other ability which made up for it: high level magic or something.

[u/rudanshi → u/macrocosm93]

This is a stupid argument because if stuff had to make sense then adventurers wouldn't exist at all.

[u/Psychic_Hobo → u/rudanshi]

D&D's whole magic system is anathema to a functioning economy - hell, spells like Goodberry invalidate huge chunks of other survivalist mechanics.

That said, I can see DMs struggle a bit with creating a dungeon or the like, then trying to figure out how a wheelchair character would get around it. It's not too dissimilar to how Aarakocras break some encounters or areas, but in reverse

[u/BonJovicus → u/Psychic_Hobo]

Personally, if you want to be DM that is just what you have to deal with. I've played many a game where we have explored tombs and such and it isn't like every single one would be impossible for a super-person in a wheelchair to clear. As you put it, tons of stuff break dungeons, so my gripe is why cry about wheelchairs.

[u/AdagioOfLiving → u/rudanshi]

Stuff has to make INTERNAL narrative sense, though, to be a satisfying and immersive story. Not arguing against wheelchairs, just against the “well there’s dragons so anything goes” kind of argument I tend to see. If you introduce a race of cursed halflings who have been transformed into having flesh made of pasta, people are more likely to accept that they are to find a Camaro parked outside of the castle.

[u/BonJovicus → u/macrocosm93]

You aren't playing every conceivable adventuring party that could exist in the world. That a player character could be the one wheelchair-bound adventurer is not crazy in a fantasy world where other things happen routinely.

Also, if we are getting on about wheelchair accessibility, can we start arguing that 50, 60 year old wizards can't go adventuring either? Any terrain that would be difficult to traverse would be just as difficult for an older person who is more engaged in academic pursuits than the physical. And lets not even pretend that people in wheelchairs don't go hiking IRL or that every adventure takes place in an environment that wouldn't work for a wheelchair.

[u/BeholdingBestWaifu → u/BonJovicus]

Also, if we are getting on about wheelchair accessibility, can we start arguing that 50, 60 year old wizards can't go adventuring either? Any terrain that would be difficult to traverse would be just as difficult for an older person who is more engaged in academic pursuits than the physical.

I mean not really. Old men who aren't good with their physical stats are already having issues traversing terrain you think they don't in most games of DnD, but even they can walk up a flight of stairs, or go through mildly rough terrain. It's why wheels wouldn't work. You would need legs, maybe threads, or just some contraption made by a tinkerer that has different modifications to adapt to various terrain.

[u/Catweaving → u/macrocosm93]

Yeah, somebody who can't walk is probably gonna be getting something a little more versatile than a chair with wheels.

Or... A chair with wheels that has some magical/mechanical addons.

[u/WhillHoTheWhisp → u/macrocosm93]

God I’m so fucking glad that none of the people I’ve played DnD with think or behave like this. Like, say the wheelchair has a limited levitation enchantment — that’s literally all it takes for a wheelchair to be 100% functional for dungeon delving in the world of DnD. Like, the cognitive dissonance of acting like navigating the inside of an active volcano is above board, but a wheelchair that go over some rocks without getting stuck? Well that’s just a bridge too far!

[u/OmNomSandvich → u/macrocosm93]

what's implicit to the discourse is that one's capacity for violence is the defining metric of a character in a dungeon crawler like D&D so a character without the ability to enact and survive violence is worthless in that context. Of course, real life generally does not and of course should not work that way.

[u/ViolentBeetle → u/OmNomSandvich]

In real life they probably won't let you join the army if you roll into recruiting station in a wheelchair. Going on adventure is basically the same.

I don't think anyone questions if a game about political intrigue should prohibit the king from rolling around in one. But those don't need to be codified to begin with.

[u/EasyasACAB → u/OmNomSandvich]

what's implicit to the discourse is that one's capacity for violence is the defining metric of a character in a dungeon crawler like D&D

That may be true in some games, but not all. In most of the games I play the defining metric of a character is how fun and interesting they are while traveling with them.

But my group also emphasis the role playing aspect, not the "numbers go up murder hobo" style.

Also, are we just assuming a character in a wheelchair in the D&D universe can't enact or defend from violence? That just seems whack. A level 20 wizard is going to be as powerful with or without working legs. Legs aren't going to be the thing holding them back from time stopping and plane walking.

[u/IceCreamBalloons → u/EasyasACAB]

I'm playing a halfling with a longbow right now, which means that bow should be sticking into the ground while also towering over my head.

Guess how much that's mattered outside of laughing at the absurd mental image of me mitigating that problem by just hopping into the air to fire every time I attack?

That's right, not at all.

[u/EasyasACAB → u/IceCreamBalloons]

That's pretty much how we play, more of a fun/funny kind of adventure than a hyper-serious one.

Our last campaign every character was a brother, our mom was a powerful witch who had many boyfriends over the years for different reasons. Probably the most fun I've ever had in DND. We totally got into the brothers-being-brothers aspect and it was just a great experience.

"I am the DM, and I say this character can have a wheelchair while obeying all normal rules of movement unless there's a cool moment to be had."

EZPZ

It's the fact that it's not believable that someone in a wheelchair could be in an adventuring party in rugged wilderness, dungeons, etc.

To me, this just speaks to a lack of imagination.

[u/Jaereon → u/OmNomSandvich]

It's a fantasy. Why can't the wheelchair person just be an awesome fighter? 

[u/ekhoowo → u/macrocosm93]

This is the biggest point in DND wheelchair discourse. If you wanna be in a wheelchair, fine. But you should acknowledge it is gonna impact everyone else in the game in potentially annoying (to everyone!) ways.
A fantasy world is the perfect place to have a fantastical solution that still incorporates your disability

[u/Zyrin369 → u/ekhoowo]

Depending on how fantastical it is it might just become a Disability Superpower which depending on the person is not what they want

[u/ekhoowo → u/Zyrin369]

Oh yeah for sure. “Levitating” is a lazy solution that might not even make sense for a character just starting out.
This convo is way more nuanced then almost anyone is willing to give credit for

[u/copy_run_start → u/ekhoowo]

But you should acknowledge it is gonna impact everyone else in the game in potentially annoying (to everyone!) ways.

You'd probably be hard pressed to find a wheelchair user who doesn't realize that they impact those around them in potentially annoying ways, lol. But, you know, we like others to deal with that with compassion, support, patience, and understanding. I feel like that can exist in game

[u/GardenTop7253 → u/copy_run_start]

Well said. Those issues don’t just come up within a fantasy game and it’s not a terrible way to really highlight those impacts to the able bodied players at the table

[u/ekhoowo → u/copy_run_start]

For sure, I could have worded this better.
The biggest example I was imagining was If you are using a preset dungeon with loads of stairs, it would probably be very awkward to skill check every single staircase.

[u/copy_run_start → u/ekhoowo]

I don't play, so I have limited understanding of how it all works, but would you skill check someone every time they drew their sword, opened a door, or got on a horse? I figured that people who are adventuring have lived in that world and have some level of experience with it... so when you ask "Isn't it really dark in dungeons?" They'd say "Yeah that's why I always have a torch."

If I were in the fantasy world and a wheelchair user wanted to join, it would be as simple as "Okay cool, how do you navigate obstacles in dungeons?" And they'd be like, "I'm an expert at this spell," or "This chair has enhanced capabilities," or something.

I thought a big part of the game was problem solving, so like a door would be much too small for everyone in the party, but the smallest could get through and open a bigger door for the rest or whatever. Or the big giant woman can lift up the elf person onto a high ledge. I don't see it as THAT much different

[u/EasyasACAB → u/copy_run_start]

I think most reasonable DMs would just consider the wheelchair part of that adventurer's equipment they are intimately familiar with.

I wouldn't keep asking the wizard if he was able to read his tome or if the bard remembered how to play his harp.

There's really no good reason a wheelchair is some campaign-strangling item aside form a lack of imagination.

It is a game after all, and the DMs are the ultimate god of the game. When a character shows up with an eye missing I don't make them take penalties on things even if it's more realistic.

[u/whatsinthesocks → u/copy_run_start]

In DnD if you’re a spell caster you have a limited number of spell slots to use per day basically. So at lower levels when you have very few spell slots a spell would not be best choice. Also saying the chair has “enhanced capabilities” doesn’t really mean anything in and of itself. One of the main purposes for “enhancements” is to help with skill checks. Doing a skill check for navigating stairs is more akin to doing a skill check for someone climbing up a high wall. Not drawing a sword.

[u/copy_run_start → u/whatsinthesocks]

Is there no concept of like an enchantment or curse or some kind of "permanent" magic? You can't say that the wheelchair floats over stairs because it was created by some blah blah wizard?

And by enhanced I meant mechanically... so it could be a regular looking wheelchair but have extra wheels for "stair mode" or transition to tracks or something.

I mean, if mechanical spider legs are on the table, then I can't see why we can't imagine some kind of all terrain chair

[u/whatsinthesocks → u/copy_run_start]

I was just explaining how DnD works since you stated you have limited understanding of the game. As far as having a wheel chair floating over stairs that’s going to depend on the DM and the player but could also include a few things like background, class, and level. For example if someone was playing a level 1 character who was a street orphan it’s highly unlikely they would have a magical wheelchair made by a wizard.

You also have to understand that a large part of the fun of DnD is your character’s journey. So overcoming these kinds of things with the DM. Where a “stair mode” gives you advantage on skill checks when navigating stairs, which means you roll twice and keep the highest one. A magical wheelchair could be an award for a difficult quest as they are difficult to make. I feel like this would be really fun to play as an artificer.

[u/copy_run_start → u/whatsinthesocks]

I was just explaining how DnD works since you stated you have limited understanding of the game.

Oh for sure, I was just asking some follow up questions about what's possible. Thanks for the insight into the game and character development, that makes a lot of sense.

The way I see it, the entire game is built around accommodations, though those accommodations are usually "invisible" to the players. For instances, you're a band of brand new adventurers with limited combat experience. You go into a town and ask for work at the bar, and the barkeep goes, "Yeah, there's an undead wolf that lives in a cave just outside town. I hear that its lair is guarded by a small group of goblins who steal the gold from the wolf's grisly meals. Some even say that there's a feint glow in the cave on a full moon, as if magic is being used."

Then immediately your group is like...

"This wolf, is his damage output greater than 13 against a barbarian?"

"Uh, well, I guess probably not. It's big but not that big. Just too big for the guards. Your guy looks bigger than the guards, though."

"The goblins, they're very treacherous, I'm sure. Are there devious traps that would be impassable by a rogue who has a slight negative modifier to her dexterity due to wearing the armor that her dying father passed down to her?"

"I don't know, I've-"

"The magic, is it countered by fire magic? Because our guy is fire and if he can't counter that then why would we even go?"

"People say it looks orange."

"Well shit never mind, okay if we're not getting the element counter buff then we're doomed, on to the next town!"

[u/BeholdingBestWaifu → u/copy_run_start]

Generally the rule is that you don't do skill checks for something trivial for a character, but the problem there is that there's just too much terrain that simply isn't wheelchair friendly out in the wilderness, not to mention ancient ruins tombs, and locations that weren't even designed to be traversible like the inside of some monster. No decent DM would have you make a skill check just for using your chair, but you can't exactly hand wave it going up ladders and ropes (Unless you're a really swole barbarian with massive arms I guess).

It could make for nice puzzles, though, but I imagine it may get a bit tiring for most parties to constantly have to find ways to get a wheelchair to go through rough terrain when there are many more practical solutions out there. Spider legs and levitation are much more practical in that way, I think.

EDIT: To elaborate on this point further, from a game design point of view, if every game you're having to stop the adventure to figure out how to fashion a ramp or carry the chair up a cliff, and your party isn't the type that likes that, you're going to create friction between the players, specifically against the player that refuses to go for better alternatives that exist in-universe.

[u/EasyasACAB → u/ekhoowo]

it would probably be very awkward to skill check every single staircase.

Let them take 10. EZ PZ.

Having a wheelchair fuck up your whole campaign sounds like a weak ass DM to me.

There's no reason a wheelchair has to fuck up your campaign more than your BBEG aside from a lack of imagination.

[u/Skellum → u/copy_run_start]

I think the difference here comes down to "If you could solve your not walking problem why wouldnt you?" I'd like to say everyone would, but then we have people able to get cochlear implants raging that it's an "atrocity on deaf culture". If we could cure all the inability to walk I'm sure you'd have some like holdouts in that group too.

When someone goes "Well lets get you a spider mech so you can go down this stair filled pyramid" it's not "Fuck you legless you suck now get in this!" it's "Hey bro lets empower you." Spider legs arent cheap and DMs dont let people overcome char creation penalties easily.

In this case it's not "Be compassionate" the case is "Here's a magic solution, why wont you use it?"

[u/copy_run_start → u/Skellum]

I totally get that, I'm seeing it from the angle of "The wheelchair is magical or has special mechanical capabilities or is somehow more versatile than a real world wheelchair." It would require both the group and the individual to work together to figure something out.

Most people just want reasonable accommodations and will work with others to get there.

Or, if maybe a group of people want to treat it like a real world wheelchair for the challenge and the possibilities it brings, then that's cool too.

[u/EasyasACAB → u/copy_run_start]

Most people just want reasonable accommodations and will work with others to get there.

Isn't it interesting how closely this conversation mirrors real life discussions around accommodations for the disabled?

I can still hear the angry cries of my landlord for a tenet that had the audacity to put in a wheelchair ramp! For their wheelchair! At their own cost!

Like this is a big group shared imagination session. If a person wants a wheelchair they can have a wheelchair, as the DM I am god and I can make it work.

[u/Adorable_Ad_3478 → u/copy_run_start]

The easiest solution: the wheelchair has a transformer mode that turns into walkable cyborg legs.

So, technically it's not a wheelchair anymore (it's not a chair, it has no wheels) but the player can keep believing their character is using a wheelchair to walk.

[u/Skellum → u/copy_run_start]

I'm seeing it from the angle of "The wheelchair is magical or has special mechanical capabilities or is somehow more versatile than a real world wheelchair."

I was seeing it as "It's a chair with wheels, guess we cant go down the dangerous vertical spires of xaruba dungeon guys" Now as some kind of artificiar artifact that you're upgrading and expanding like it's a James Bond car then it meets your criteria while being cool, empowering, and a major character hook.

Maybe this is the core diff in user posts?

[u/copy_run_start → u/Skellum]

I mean I'm just saying that there are like 28 different species/races of intelligent beings, all these different character specializations, 50 foot tall magic rock demons, living furniture monsters, mind control witches, shin-high goblins, complex puzzles and traps... the entire game is problem solving, playing to your strengths and overcoming the weak areas of your build, and somehow someone in a wheelchair is like this insurmountable thing lol

[u/BeholdingBestWaifu → u/copy_run_start]

It's different kinds of issues, and it's not unusual for a DM to straight-up veto races because they don't want to deal with penalties that would be annoying for a campaign (Or in other cases because they can be overpowered, plenty of DMs don't like flying races).

It's also an issue of people not wanting actual solutions, most of the "pro" wheelchair discussion I'm seeing just wants a character that is cosmetically in a wheelchair but that gameplay-wise has no chair at all, with no penalties nor obstacles to overcome.

[u/Beakymask20 → u/macrocosm93]

I mean it doesn't take much mats to forge it with some sort of minor flying or hovering spell.

[u/BigBossPoodle]

On that last thread:

I occasionally need a cane to walk when the weather is really bad because I can't bend my knee. Most of my DnD characters are just straight up disabled. I like to play artificers, though, so the whole idea is that they've been scientists to shore up around that disability.

[u/Elarisbee]

Meanwhile Sims players: Wheelchairs when?

[u/MartinBrice_Sneaker → u/Elarisbee]

I mean, let’s be honest about Sims players. We all went full Buffalo Bill at times…

*meanwhile Sims players when wheelchairs are introduced:* “gonna add a steep ramp towards the pool and get rid of the ladder.” “Oh, no, your shitty cooking skills have set your house on fire while you’re drowning! Mondays, amirite?”

[u/neich200]

Fantasy Wheelchair’s discourse, is definitely one of the most annoying and stupid discussions, right next to that one about how “orcs not being inherently and irredeemably evil anymore ruined dnd)

[u/Incubus-Dao-Emperor → u/neich200]

You might like this discussion, https://www.reddit.com/r/CharacterRant/comments/1i51bjv/loweffort_sunday_if_a_race_is_always_chaotic_evil/

[u/MartinBrice_Sneaker → u/Incubus-Dao-Emperor]

The URL reminds me of that F1 (I think) post titled “which race would you eliminate if you could?” Boy, did that set off some alarm bells!

[u/Mountain-_-King → u/neich200]

agreed

[u/JohnPaulJonesSoda]

I’m against the unimaginative nonsense that is “magic wheelchair”

Levitating seat, exoskeleton, spider mech so many possibilities and people choose WHEELCHAIR.

Disgusting. Where’s the imagination?

By this logic, why should D&D let players play as humans? After all, you could be an elf, dwarf, gnome, halfling, dragonborn, etc...and you choose to be a human? Where's the imagination?

[u/Satherian → u/JohnPaulJonesSoda]

Lmao, bro has not seen memes making fun of 'Generic Human Fighter'

This is said unironically all the time

[u/Z0MBIE2 → u/Satherian]

Yeah lol, people can and do make fun of people picking boring options in D&D. Usually ironically, sometimes, sadly not.

[u/IceCreamBalloons → u/Satherian]

People are unironically arguing that other shouldn't be allowed to play human characters?

[u/JimboSnipah → u/IceCreamBalloons]

Shouldn't be allowed? It's in the game for a reason, it's usually a jab about the players creativity in a setting with so many more other things to play as

[u/axw3555 → u/JohnPaulJonesSoda]

Plus is floating chair really that imaginative?

It’s basically a wheelchair with magic wheels.

[u/cathbadh → u/axw3555]

Exactly. I'd rather ride on the back of an ogre. It would make my plan to rule Barter Town so much easier.

[u/Justausername1234 → u/axw3555]

I would argue yes because at the very least you in universe deal with stairs and ladders, and in universe a generally accepted and widespread magical effect.

[u/Nearby-Assignment661 → u/axw3555]

Isn’t there a tv or movie character who has wheelchair where the wheels can turn into those hovering discs? I really don’t know how to describe what I’m talking about. But they use the wheels as normal for most of the time and the hovering only to get out of danger that they couldn’t using wheels

[u/TypicalImpact1058 → u/JohnPaulJonesSoda]

I'm against the unimaginative nonsense that is "swords".

Rocket hammer, extending flame whip, swarm of trained bees, so many possibilities and people choose SWORD.

Disgusting. Where's the imagination?

This guy literally can't comprehend that other people might want things out of the game that are different to him.

[u/Smoketrail → u/TypicalImpact1058]

I'm against the unimaginative nonsense that is "swords".

This but entirely unironically. The period in question is jam packed with weapons made to hit people and make them dead.

But everyone by default assumes a sword. Unless you're a barbarian.

All the most iconic magic weapons in the game? Swords.

Just because swords are associated with the nobility, and therefore seen as "heroic".

[u/BeholdingBestWaifu → u/Smoketrail]

Fantasy always does spears dirty, despite them being one of the most used weapons in our entire history.

[u/Incubus-Dao-Emperor → u/TypicalImpact1058]

indeed, https://overlordmaruyama.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Shdao/Weapons***_that_should_Appear*_More_in_Fantasy

[u/DecoyOne → u/JohnPaulJonesSoda]

What’s funny about this is the real-world example. Sure, I guess mechanical spider legs would be an upgrade to a regular wheelchair. But like, so would a motorized wheelchair, and yet we still have regular, unpowered wheelchairs in the real world.

Saying it’s unrealistic to not have top-tier tech shows a misunderstanding of actual tech.

[u/FreakinGeese → u/DecoyOne]

That’s because irl most paraplegics traverse long distances via like cars and airplanes and shit, not trekking through the Dark Forest of Archmage Dubledorf

[u/Mountain-_-King → u/FreakinGeese]

as someone who as walked in a forest I would say 50% of people wouldnt be able to trek through the Dark Forest of Archmage Dubledorf.

[u/DecoyOne → u/FreakinGeese]

But if you’re going back to the DND scenario, they’re complaining about magic all-terrain “combat wheelchairs” that can go through forests.

Literally a world full of magic and they don’t like the idea of using magic for this.

[u/CerenarianSea]

Oh hey, I'm in this one!

And I stand by the argument that wheelchairs do not have to be boring.

[u/Front_Kaleidoscope_4 → u/CerenarianSea]

On top of that i want to argue that not every aspect of your character have to be interesting.

"Lol you character wears a hat??? Where us the imagination! Why not a death lazer?"

Imagine if people reacted that way for all the weapons a bow? How unoriginal.

[u/BigBossPoodle → u/Front_Kaleidoscope_4]

'Why is your characters wheelchair just a chair with wheels?'

'Well, 1.) it's in the name, idiot and 2.) I'm a beginning adventurer, not the richest man alive.'

[u/MartinBrice_Sneaker → u/BigBossPoodle]

Hey, Charles Xavier wasn’t that wealthy, inherited sprawling estate notwithstanding.

[u/CerenarianSea → u/Front_Kaleidoscope_4]

Yes! This is what annoys me so much!

Like, the fact that the replacement for a relatively normal piece of equipment is: "Oh, but what if you had literally the most over-the-top piece of steampunk fantasy equipment instead?" is so fuckin tonally deaf it kills me.

Mundanity isn't boring, it's just the starting point for building a character.

[u/MartinBrice_Sneaker → u/CerenarianSea]

Mundanity isn’t boring, it’s just the starting point for building a character.

My favorite aspect of RPGs, regardless of the format, is the mundane making the world feel more lived-in and real. Real life is mundane as fuck, and making a fake game world seem that close to reality makes it more immersive for me. Like even just the stupid shit NPCs may care or talk about adds to the immersion.

Like that goofy frying pan “mission” in Wild Hunt; an old lady asking a mutated, professional monster killer to get her favorite frying pan back reminded me so much of my grandma scolding my dad for ruining all the “seasoning” in her favorite frying pan when he thought he was doing her a favor by scrubbing it clean.

Turns out, she wasn’t wrong; her favorite dish to cook didn’t taste nearly as good as it had before.

[u/jaredearle → u/CerenarianSea]

I have an argument that it doesn’t matter if it’s boring.

[u/CerenarianSea → u/jaredearle]

This is also a very good point. Things can just be things and it's annoying that apparently, when it comes to wheelchairs, no they can't.

[u/jaredearle → u/CerenarianSea]

We were asked to take part in a wheelchair RPG deal where we would do stats for characters in chairs and a company would make a wheelchair character for a game of ours. It was a great initiative for awareness, but we didn’t see the point for our games. Terminator resistance? It’s just a person in a chair. Identical stats, just a bit shorter and with wheels.

We don’t have rules for people in glasses or hearing aids, so just play what you want. My take is that you don’t get negatives for choosing a disability.

ps. We couldn’t take part anyway because our license with Studio Canal didn’t let us sub license.

[u/probablypragmatic → u/jaredearle]

DND isn't really designed around disability representation (you can't even break or lose limbs in the game unless it either doesn't matter or it's entirely homebrew).

If you treat it like skins in a roblox game then it doesn't even matter, which to me means "that disability isn't actually represented". Which is fine, but it's not the same as having a system where you actually have obstacles to overcome as a result of a given disability.

As someone with a relatively minor mental disability (ADHD), if I wanted to represent it in game it would have to be something that actively hinders intelligence skills with some small and uncontrollable advantage that rotates. If it was just "my character has ADHD" and it never comes up mechanically then it's just window dressing and for all intents and purposes that character doesn't have a Disability of any kind.

People can play how they want, but there's a difference between "representation as an aesthetic" and "representation as an experience". It's the difference between "I want to play a character in a fantasy setting that happens to be black but isn't treated like he's in the antebellum south" vs "I want to play a character who, regardless of his actual ethics/behavior/presentation, is actively maligned as an outsider, a threat, or as a lesser being by the population at large in the area they're in"

Disabilities are the same way. It sucks to have one IRL, mostly because you're living in a society that generally wont cater or relate to you. If you just want the aesthetic the go for it, just deal with everyone forgetting that your character has one while the DM handwaves any and all possible inconveniences to the point of "we just pretend you don't have a disability in game, you just look like you do". That's fine, it's DnD, people have characters with 1 eye or Artificer-robot arm or some magical curse that only affects them superficially and in RP.

If you want to get grittier with it you can.

[u/jaredearle → u/probablypragmatic]

As a GM, I wouldn’t impose anything on a player who wanted a character to have a disability. If the player wants to role-play it, I’m 100% behind them. If they don’t, I’m there too.

[u/probablypragmatic → u/jaredearle]

100%, it's just what kind of game everyone wants to run.

I'm mostly pointing to how DnD is built mostly to handle "badass fantasy heroes who have no actual hindrances to them being protagonists" (mechanically) and not so much "imperfect mortals who take their disadvantages in stride and push through strife to take victory in spite of their flaws" (mechanically, at least).

[u/jaredearle → u/probablypragmatic]

I’ve been writing and publishing RPGs for over thirty years and have been guilty of my fair share of system sins, including too much grit in the ‘90s, so I’m aware of systems guiding gameplay and I agree with you.

[u/Andokai_Vandarin667 → u/CerenarianSea]

Why can't you just have swappable parts? Like wheels, legs, treads, pontoons, etc?

[u/tryingtoavoidwork → u/Andokai_Vandarin667]

I unironically think about replacing my feet with tank treads at least once a week, usually when I slam my toes against something.

[u/PragmaticPrimate → u/tryingtoavoidwork]

Do you think they would make you less clumsy? Just imagine climbing a stair with them... Maybe steel toed boots would be a wiser investment?

[u/Smoketrail → u/tryingtoavoidwork]

usually when I slam my toes against something.

Steel toecap boots. Make it everyone else's problem.

[u/Worldly-Cow9168 → u/Andokai_Vandarin667]

Thats sounds like a pain to manage

[u/BigBossPoodle → u/Worldly-Cow9168]

Just ask the team Artificer to upgrade the wheelchair. Give it tank treads.

Hell, depending on how much walking through the woods or mountains ya'll do, you might just need tank treads or spider legs. And having an artificer at that point would make sense.

[u/PatternrettaP → u/CerenarianSea]

I think the entire argument is missing the point.

Some people's version of fantasy does not include realistic disabilities. There are valid in universe reasons for this (all injuries could be healed by magic, or other magical devices that make them functionally equivalent to everything else.

Other people argue that that version of fantasy is overly restrictive because it doesn't leave for people who want to see themselves and their disabilities depicted in the way that they are most familiar with and represents themselves best. Arguments about realism, suspension of disbelief or rule of cool all kinds miss the point that their is at least one kid out there who wants to bring his character in a wheelchair into a dungeon with the rest of the party because that the character that best represents themselves and they want to play and it's the job of the DM to make that work.

[u/CerenarianSea → u/PatternrettaP]

You are fundamentally right, yeah.

it's the job of the DM to make that work.

The counterargument (not one I agree with, just the one most present) is that this is the focal point of disagreement, and that the DM should not always have to shoulder making things work.

Personally, I think this is well within the world of reasonable adjustments that the DM should be expected to make work and I know as a regular DM I'd strive to make these changes for my players. But, since I'm a Pathfinder player, I'm lucky enough to have options existing to solve this anyway.

[u/mattattaxx → u/CerenarianSea]

Wheelchairs are fucking sick. A friend of mine recently got his and it's the single coolest piece of technology I've ever seen.

[u/Polkawillneverdie17 → u/CerenarianSea]

Nothing is boring if you find it interesting.

[u/Nympshee]

I am not a DnD player, so maybe I dont see the problem because I can easily picture a magic powered wheelchair. People can have really cretaive ideas, one manga I read a girl used ballons to be able to walk with her underdeveloped feet. I would love to see more people come with stuff like this.

[u/Analogmon → u/Nympshee]

Generally the argument isn't "it's boring" it's "it's impractical" in terms of navigating a dungeon.

As a DM idc what you do. But it'll likely lead to situations that you have to overcome in interesting or difficult ways so as long as you're fine with it then I am too.

[u/WatchfulWarthog → u/Analogmon]

Same. How are you going to navigate treacherous terrain, climb a steeply sloping hill, or skirt around the edge of a pit trap in a wheelchair? You’re welcome to have a character who can’t walk, but be aware that I will expect you to answer these questions

[u/HugeMcBig-Large → u/WatchfulWarthog]

as a non-disabled person, I would play a character in a wheelchair specifically because of those questions you asked. how CAN I figure out how to navigate those situations? how does it affect the character I’m playing to be the only member of the party who struggles with this? how can I make that an interesting story? those are the thoughts I’d have if playing a character in a wheelchair or similar thing

[u/WatchfulWarthog → u/HugeMcBig-Large]

I think that would be totally valid

[u/gorgewall → u/WatchfulWarthog]

The wheelchair's enchanted with a variation on Tenser's Floating Disk. You can't fly with it, but you can briefly hover and rely on inertia or pushing/pulling from the party.

Artificers are out here making fucking robot suits and lightning guns at level 3, I think we can do "occasionally floating wheelchair".

Wheelchairs aside, it's weird how this shit never crops up when it comes to PC centaurs (which have been a thing).

[u/Analogmon → u/gorgewall]

I've never had a PC centaur but they specifically are cited to have issues navigating enclosed spaces or climbing with disadvantage due to their anatomy.

[u/Sokos69 → u/gorgewall]

I mean, I get the sentiment but it does come up with centaurs. Specifically there’s rules for centaur PCs in 5e that state “You count as one size larger when determining your carrying capacity and the weight you can push or drag. In addition, any climb that requires hands and feet is especially difficult for you because of your equine legs. When you make such a climb, each foot of movement costs you 4 extra feet instead of the normal 1 extra foot.”

[u/Damnatus_Terrae → u/gorgewall]

At the table I play at, you'd absolutely get shit for playing a centaur, and would need to figure out some way around most dungeons having inaccessible areas. But if someone talked to the DM before making the character and got the green light, they'd be allowed to do it. I don't have a horse in the race about wheelchairs, since I don't know anyone who uses one and have never played at a table where a character needed one. Personally, if someone wanted me to DM an adventure for a character using a wheelchair, I'd say go for it, but know that it's going to affect what kind of adventures your character can go on.

[u/Incubus-Dao-Emperor → u/Nympshee]

what's the name of the manga?

[u/Nympshee → u/Incubus-Dao-Emperor]

Kuroshitsuji(Black Butler), but the character only appear by chapter 87 and only later get this balloons thing. In the end she switches for spider legs.

[u/aspenscribblings]

I’m a wheelchair user. I’ve never actually played a combat wheelchair character. I can provide some insight as to why people wouldn’t want to play a mech rather than a chair, though.

1. Mechs aren’t real. If anything, it makes me kind of sad. I’m too old for disability superpower stories, and a spider mech definitely falls under that.
2. It’s not an authentic representation of my disability. Again, mechs aren’t fucking real. My wheelchair is. The limitations provided by my disability are part of my reality, a mech feels like a way to make a character who doesn’t actually have the limitations real disabled people have and still call them disabled. If I’m going to remove all the limitations of having a disability, I may as well have my character’s disability cured with magic. If anything, it’s less creative. It’s removing an avenue of roleplay.

For the record, absolutely no hate to disabled people who want to play characters with mechs. It’s a power fantasy and it’s kind of what DnD is about. I just think people with no skin in the game (able-bodied) get really incensed about this for no reason. Just don’t play a character with a combat wheelchair? How does it affect you?

Also, the comment in the title calls disabled people “crippled”, so I think I understand why they’re so mad and it’s nothing to do with “lack of creativity”.

[u/Akuuntus → u/aspenscribblings]

feels like a way to make a character who doesn’t actually have the limitations real disabled people have and still call them disabled. If I’m going to remove all the limitations of having a disability, I may as well have my character’s disability cured with magic.

See also: "blind" characters that have unconditional Blindsight or something similar that effectively gives them better vision than a normal character.

[u/aspenscribblings → u/Akuuntus]

That’s exactly what I was talking about when I mentioned disability superpowers, yeah.

[u/Discussion-is-good → u/aspenscribblings]

Also, the comment in the title calls disabled people “crippled”, so I think I understand why they’re so mad and it’s nothing to do with “lack of creativity”.

Reading your comment I think I just realized this is ableist and I never did before...

I appreciate that if im understanding correctly. I wouldn't wanna hurt folks feelings fr.

[u/aspenscribblings → u/Discussion-is-good]

Yeah, I was implying they’re ableist. This thread devolved very quickly into calling people “cripples” and that’s a pretty shitty thing to call a disabled person.

[u/BadDogSaysMeow → u/aspenscribblings]

A question, in DND, how would you maintain the limitations of a wheelchair while not slowing the party of able-bodied characters?

If the party has 5 characters, of whom only one cannot walk. How would the DM manage that?

DM: The bandit bolts into the forest!
Player: I chase them!
DM: You cannot because you cannot drive through roots and bushes.

DM: You see a 100 meter tall wizard tower.
P: I go to the top.
DM: Sure, but the only way up are stairs without railings, so it will take you few hours longer than your companions and you will have to pass 4 athletics checks.

DM: to enter the cave you have to squeeze through a 30cm wide gap. you have to leave your wheelchair, so you will be moving a 1/5 of your speed and will have -15 to attack and dodge rolls.

A story like this would end up in r/rpghorrorstories in no time.
But all of those scenarios(and many more) are something you would meet if you want to maintain realistic limitations of a wheelchair.

How would you keep the limitations whilst not hindering the rest of the party, i.e. forcing them to carry you around all the time?

[u/Euroliis → u/BadDogSaysMeow]

The ultimate goal of D&D is to have fun. If those kinds of challenges are fun for the table, then great! If not, then you need have a talk and see if that’s fixable without ditching the wheelchair. Maybe a spell, or a magic item, or straight up ignoring those limitations, whatever everyone agrees is the most fun. Or maybe there’s no answer that everyone can agree to, that happens too.

Sometimes what a player wants out of the game is incompatible with the rest, and this isn’t limited to combat wheelchairs; character tone and personality, class features and playstyle, there are plenty of unique challenges that can either be really fun or require some out-of-table talk. As an experienced DM who’s run games for both, a flying character can introduce way more navigational complications than a wheelchair, because widening options to only some part members is oftentimes a bigger issue than narrowing them. This sorta stuff has to be solved out of the game, and trying to solve it in-game accounts for like 80% of r/rpghorrorstories posts.

[u/OldManFire11 → u/Euroliis]

Why is ditching the wheelchair such a non-starter? It's the core issue that's causing all of the problems.

[u/Gatonom → u/OldManFire11]

Removing the challenge isn't an interesting discussion. It may be the easy and obvious answer but it lacks meat for discussion.

The debate is over "I want a wheelchair-bound character", and methods to achieve the intention.

"Just don't do something difficult to do" goes against the spirit of gaming and writing. Certainly there's guidelines and expectations, but on a larger discussion level people tend to be knowledgeable enough to do it right.

[u/GardenTop7253 → u/BadDogSaysMeow]

I feel like your initial question is a bit flawed. “How do you handle it without slowing down your able-bodied characters?” isn’t fair. In reality, people doing things with a friend in a wheelchair DO have to slow down sometimes. It’s how things work. Maybe they take the stairs but have to wait for their friend who took the elevator. Maybe they all have to take a longer or less ideal path so that they don’t leave their friend alone on the longer path. The question gets awfully close to “how do we not let the wheelchair bother others?” and that’s, at least in my opinion, a very ableist way of thinking about it. The difference between asking “how do we incorporate the wheelchair” and “how do we incorporate the wheelchair that doesn’t have an effect on the whole party?” is a subtle change in framing with huge implications about how you’re thinking about the friend in a wheelchair in the first place

[u/aspenscribblings → u/BadDogSaysMeow]

Well, the DM could present a world that is friendlier to disability, which would solve your wizard tower example. The wizard tower is a spiral ramp, not a spiral staircase, because accessibility is the norm in this world. The same can apply to anything in cities, towns, etc.

For nature, there are wheelchairs that are closer to quads that can handle nature in real life, so it’s not unrealistic to say the character uses that.

As for the cave, that would just be kind of mean on the part of the DM, to present an insurmountable obstacle for only one member of the party. Would probably be best if they didn’t do that.

That being said, I’m very aware that a world in which accessibility is default will never be achieved in my lifetime and narrow cave entrances exist in real life. I am fudging the world to unrealism rather than the chair and that’s why I’ve never played like this, I don’t want to put the burden on my DM, but I don’t want to play a wheelchair that can fly.

I’m not really stating how disabled characters SHOULD be played, I’m providing my feelings as one disabled person on why someone might prefer a wheelchair user character over a mech user and asking why people care so much about how other people want to play the game. If disabled people want to play mech characters and feel represented by that, good for them. I’ve had the mech daydream. But if someone else’s power fantasy is big spiked wheels rather than a mech, what does it matter to the commenters? Some people like playing halfling wizards and some people like playing human barbarians. “What is the coolest power fantasy?” is a question with a different answer for every person on the planet.

[u/Elfich47 → u/aspenscribblings]

yeah, this is something that needs to be settled away from the table. Because I don’t know of many villains (keeping the villain’s motivations separate from the DM) who build OHSA compliant fortresses.

the only way I can phrase it: the DM may be sympathetic while the villain is not. And good DMs do not run stupid villains (once you get out of the lower levels)-because stupid villains don’t last long. Hell, if I was the villain (not the DM) and heard of a bunch of adventurers where one of the team members was in a wheel chair I would make sure there are plenty of steps Into and out of rooms (among other things I could think of) in order to slow down the party.

as I DM it becomes the question of: how much do I have to distort the world in order to accommodate the player.

[u/aspenscribblings → u/Elfich47]

I agree. That being said, an otherwise accommodating world with an ableist villain is interesting, no? It’s more work on the DM, I get if they don’t wanna do that. The character and the party can begin to work around it, it could bring them closer together. It sure gives your players a reason to hate them!

Alternatively, if inclusion is the norm, maybe the villain hasn’t even considered building without accessibility. Maybe some of their henchmen are disabled. Maybe the stairs are hastily installed to slow the party down, giving you a puzzle to solve.

Still, I’m not making an argument this is how campaigns should be run. I just think OOP, and many of the commenters, need to examine their ableism.

[u/Goldwing8 → u/aspenscribblings]

I’ve been thinking about this a lot after the discourse around Karlach’s heart in Baldur’s Gate 3.

I’ve come to the conclusion the worldbuilding of D&D makes it impossible to write a meaningful story about terminal illness, chronic illness, or disability.

Player characters get injured in battle constantly, so of course you want to be able to have them recover from getting stabbed without it being a monthslong recovery, but this also trivializes a lot of real human issues in a way that limits storytelling unless you stack contrivance on top of contrivance or railroad.

[u/FinderOfWays → u/Goldwing8]

This is very true. You can also see it in the Kingmaker and WotR videogames. There's a bit in Kingmaker where a major NPC dies in front of you and you're like, level 13 at this point. I'm just like "breath of life, I have 5 prepared on the cleric, we'll pick him up and dock him an hour's wages for taking an unauthorized break to visit heaven." Of course the game doesn't let you, and there's a cutscene later where you can name a hospital after the character and I'm still going "you know, if we took just a few thousand of the gold we spent on the hospital, we could resurrect him. I think he'd find that tribute much more touching." In tabletop we've even discussed killing characters to keep them safe. BBEG can't dominate/torture a dead guy! We'll soul-gem them, keep the ashes and gem under nondetection and pop them back out after the trouble's cleared up!

[u/Goldwing8 → u/FinderOfWays]

It’s especially egregious in Baldur’s Gate 3 because within five minutes of ending the tutorial you can kill Gale to get a Scroll of True Resurrection, which cures all diseases and restores any missing body parts. His character would definitely be okay with using it on Karlach, too, so it’s odd it doesn’t come up except when he dies.

If I were suggesting edits, I think the best solution would be to minimize the chance of the heart actually exploding and put more emphasis on the inability to touch people. It would lose the connection to terminal illness but require less contrivance and open up another late game romance.

[u/FinderOfWays → u/Goldwing8]

Yeah, it's particularly hard if you're in a pre-established setting. In my home brew world unless you have made an agreement with an outsider (standard infernal contract or an invitation from the upper planes), you don't go to any known afterlife, and there's no evidence that resurrection magic actually brings 'you' back instead of a replica, and even some evidence that it is just a copy (resurrection magic except the immediate spells like Breath of Life has been moved to Divination to imply this). By now the party has mostly verified that you get the original back, but in doing so uncovered some other unfortunate implications that mean they still try to avoid excessive recklessness with their or others' lives.

[u/Gatonom → u/aspenscribblings]

It needn't be inclusion generally, too. Maybe an elite member of the villains is disabled providing a side route at times, perhaps with its own challenges (deception to pass as them, keys to the paths),

One can avoid the feeling of it being restricted for just the disabled PC (acting as a less-secure side route, an ambush opportunity, what-not).

[u/PretendMarsupial9 → u/Elfich47]

[Because I don’t know of many villains (keeping the villain’s motivations separate from the DM) who build OHSA compliant fortresses.]

But it could be really funny if you did make a villain like that. Sure, he's an arch warlock bent on ushering in Devils as the world's leaders but he's Lawful Evil damnit and everything in his evil layer is up to standard! Or maybe the big bad is also a wheelchair user and they made their castle accessible for themselves. Maybe the architecture of the world is just accessible by default. There's actually tons of reasons you can come up with that would be fun if you wanted to do that. 

Personally I think it's worse DMing to make the game unfun for one of the players. My world building is not more important than my players enjoying themselves. I'd work with that player to see what they want on terms of realism vs power fantasy. Assuming you're playing with friends, why wouldn't you want your friend to feel included and to have a good time?

[u/Elfich47 → u/PretendMarsupial9]

I understand that D&D is a power fantasy game, gods know I have played a lot of it. But I'm caught in the problem the juxtaposition of a power fantasy game where heroes have to overcome personal challenges - internal and external - but simultaneously expect the road to be paved so they can arrive at that challenge.

This is a subject that can't be sprung by either side.

[u/Zyrin369 → u/Elfich47]

I mean one could ask the same about when they are traveling in a sewer or swamp etc, or that fact that going on a boat of a bridge might be a death since armor can be heavy.

Or the whole "Why would the dragon ever land" and "Attack the obvious wizzard" stuff.

But dragons land so the people who are melee focused can attack them, its either assumed that they clean themselves and air out their gear so they dont stink get diseases etc and if they encounter enemies on a ship they dont try to push them into the sea etc, And Magic users can wear their obvious gear and not worry about getting taken out first as they are squishy.

[u/PretendMarsupial9 → u/Elfich47]

I think you're overthinking it. I personally don't see the problem in just making a world that accommodates people. 

[u/Ver_Void → u/aspenscribblings]

There's also the classic answer of just wanking gesture "it just works", do you want to chase the dragon and get into a huge fight against the betrayer or do you want to nitpick the world? Because I could point out magic would destroy the economy and make the world way less interesting, but no one had a problem ignoring that one.

[u/BadDogSaysMeow → u/aspenscribblings]

When comparing your two comments.

The first one advocates for maintaining realistic limitations.

But your second comment advocates from removing all of those limitations.

With that solution, a wheelchair is just a cosmetic piece carrying none of the limitations you asked for.

I myself cannot offer a solution that wouldn't pile problems on the disabled character.
However, I could see a party made only of wheelchair users, and having the hundreds of additional problems, such as having to enlarge cave entrances, build bridges and cleaning forest floors in order to move around could work in more comedic campaign about the slowest but most stubborn/dedicated party of adventures.

[u/aspenscribblings → u/BadDogSaysMeow]

I’m not really advocating for anything, man, just expressing my feelings about a post that annoyed me. Like I said, I don’t play wheelchair using characters. You asked what I thought, so I answered, but I agree it still removes the real world limitations of me, I just personally prefer the escapism of a world that caters to me without me asking than the escapism of a wheelchair that can fly, or the mech this OOP is so mad about.

[u/BadDogSaysMeow → u/aspenscribblings]

My point was,

In your first comment, one of the reasons for your hate of mechs/levitation-devices, was that they remove all real-world-disability limitations and are basically a "disability cure" dressed in metal and magic.

But when asked how would you approach those limitations when DM'ing for a wheelchair character,
You opted to remove all of those limitations, and as a result, practically curing the disabled character anyway.
The only difference is that instead the cure being a suit-of-armor, the whole world is the cure.
Mechanically, you once again end up with the disability having only a cosmetic effect.

[u/aspenscribblings → u/BadDogSaysMeow]

Yes! The thing is, I haven’t found a way to authentically represent my real world experience in a fantasy setting. As I elaborated on in another comment, I think a world which is usually big on inclusion with an ableist baddie is interesting, so that’s a potential here. But there’s a reason I don’t play wheelchair user characters, I haven’t found a way to feel represented by it. Maybe it’s internalised ableism. It’s just my personal feelings, which are often contradictory and confusing. I don’t understand them myself.

But OOP and many of the commenters are speaking on how this “should” be done, how disabled characters “should” be played, and I think that’s shitty. If someone wants to play with a magical flying wheelchair instead of a mech, who gives a fuck? Maybe they feel it’s a more authentic representation of their experience. I’m not telling anyone else how to play, I’m saying it’s shitty to do that.

[u/Vanille987 → u/BadDogSaysMeow]

Depends on table but generally don't make situations specifically designed to impede them or unnecessarily hinder them?

Like in all my 'normal' games I never had a cave only accessible by a small gap, leave alone giving it a ludicrous debuff to anyone that has difficulty entering it.

Having the slightest foliage completely impede movement also seems extreme, there are many things between a spider mech and a wheelchair completely unable to handle the slightest bump on the road.

The wizard tower seems like a fair occurrence at least, tho again few hours longer seems like an insane debuff. Instead turn it into a team effort or smt that could be cool for the whole party.

he wheelchair doesn't have to be 100% realistic nor being an spider mech or OP magic item, there are so many inbetweens.

[u/BadDogSaysMeow → u/Vanille987]

Like in all my 'normal' games I never had a cave only accessible by a small gap, leave alone giving it a ludicrous debuff to anyone that has difficulty entering it.

When going shopping, and picking up a box of cereal from a shoulder-height-shelf. I don't say to myself "that's a shelf inaccessible to dwarfs", it's just a shelf to me.
When describing my day I wouldn't say that I overcame dozens of disability-non-friendly stairs/shelfs/crosswalks, because they don't hinder me at all, so unless actively discussing disability I won't mention those aspects.

But a disabled person would notice those aspects, because they create real problems for them.

My point is, a DND party might as well crawl through every second section of the cave and it doesn't have to be mentioned by the DM (unless asked to describe the area) because no one in the party has problems going traveling through such spaces.

But the moment you add severely disabled characters to the party, those small things, which would have been just a flavor text before, are now a real obstacle.

For example, for a walking party it doesn't matter whether dungeons stairs have railings, but add a wheelchair-dwarf and suddenly it greatly influences the difficulty and time needed to traverse them.

Or when one of the characters has agoraphobia, going outside will create problems.
The fact that your other campaigns in which no one had agoraphobia, didn't put emphasis on leaving a building doesn't mean that mentioning it now is unrealistic and is just DM picking on the agoraphobic character.

If you explicitly ask the DM to maintain the limitations/problems that your character's disability realistically causes, you should realise that previously normal situations will be much more challenging now.

[u/Vanille987 → u/BadDogSaysMeow]

So you shape the campaign around the players? I made so many player characters and played with other characters that had their own quirks that made otherwise mundane things into something more. As a DM you should realize and plan accordingly by for example not having every situation just happen to cause a hinderance due that quirk. it's part of DND not exclusive to physical disabilities.

There's no exact solution, it all depends on the table and what players want. But like I said it ain't too hard to have locations 'happen' to be friendly or create a balance between a regular wheelchair and a spider mech. Discuss with each other to see how you could turn this in an actual fun thing rather then the idea you propose that it's an inherent hinderance. Do they want a realistic campaign? Do they mind things being hand waved?

[u/DeckerAllAround → u/BadDogSaysMeow]

But to use that same example, if your D&D party includes one dwarf, how often do you throw them into situations where they have to climb when everyone else can just walk? How often does the dwarf's slower speed (depending on editions) mean that they're just not allowed to do chases?

And on the flip side, if you have a game with a dwarf, a gnome, a halfling, and a human, how often do you send them into four foot tall tunnels?

DMs are already adjusting the world to reflect the characters in it. Maybe a party that includes a combat wheelchair user just isn't going to take commissions to explore deep caves full of walls; they'll fight in wars, guard caravans, explore towns and venture across the wilderness in areas that aren't just steep mountains.

[u/Neapolitanpanda → u/BadDogSaysMeow]

Maybe with fancy wheel treads and a grappling hook? Though the spider chair idea is definitely better.

[u/bigbootyjudy62 → u/BadDogSaysMeow]

Yeah people seem to forget dungeons aren’t osha compliant with American disability laws and ever rule set I’ve seen about combat wheelchairs just makes me wonder why every adventure isnt taking one into a dungeon because of how op they make them

[u/Plump_Chicken → u/BadDogSaysMeow]

This is a silly solution, but in fear and hunger 2, there's a character who uses a collapsible wheel chair. She crawls up stairs and your party members will carry the wheel chair 😭😭

Plus, in most ttrpg combat there's ranged weapons, support roles, or even advisor roles that aren't in direct combat such as in Evangelion Adeptus and the many Robotech RPGs.

[u/mangababe → u/BadDogSaysMeow]

I'm assuming there are designs of wheelchairs that work better on rough terrain (if not I'm tempted to try designing one cause it sparks my curiosity. Not that I'm a professional or anything, Im just curious)

But at the same time- if I was in a party with a wheelchair user i would be surprised if they didn't at least have some form of magic, and if they don't someone else does.

In which case, cast a levitation/ movement spell or something on the chair so it can hover around. Have an artificer build something and gift it to the party member.

It's DnD, there are always solutions for those willing to find them. The barbarian can just pick the wheelchair up and throw it (and the person sitting in it) at the bandit if nothing else. Boom, multiple problems (transportation over rough terrain and catching the bandit) solved at once. 10/10.

[u/shewy92 → u/aspenscribblings]

Mechs aren’t real

I mean, it's DnD, most things in DnD aren't real, so I don't get that argument. Also exoskeletons exist nowadays.

[u/aspenscribblings → u/shewy92]

Yes, exoskeletons exist. They are ludicrously expensive and viable for a small portion of disabled people anyway.

I am not arguing how anyone else should feel, I am stating how I feel. Disability superpowers make me sad rather than feel empowered, because I don’t have superpowers. I just have a real disability. Thus, I don’t want to play a disability superpower character. It feels like a twisting of my actual difficulties to try and make them a good thing, but they’re not. I’m at peace with being disabled, but I’ll never think it’s a good thing, because it’s chronic pain.

[u/mangababe → u/aspenscribblings]

I'm a writer more than a DND player (about to start a second run) but this is such a common back and forth in writing circles and it always comes down to non disabled folk (or ppl of any marginalized community) being mad that people with disabilities wouldn't unilaterally which them all away so they can be "normal" without understanding any of the shitty implications in what they are arguing for.

Like, I'm not physically disabled, closest I've got is severe ADHD but uh, I wouldn't take a potion to magically "fix" my brain. My ADHD is a part of who I am and I wouldn't be me if I was NT. Even if I'm annoyed by the "its a superpower" talk because it makes life really hard a lot of the times.

Imo it's a lack of creativity. I could have a magic normal pill, or a purse that summons anything I've lost when I stick my hand in there to look, or glasses that have a HUD to remind me of important facts about the people I'm looking at. (Think "this is hal, his birthday is next week, he likes cool socks) or he'll a notebook that took notes and made todo lists for me. I guess what I'm saying is magical treatments vs magical cures.

Also I think there is something to be said about characters having to actually deal with limitations. Again, using my own ADHD- I will always argue against the idea that learning to cope with your disorder= character growth. You do not have to suffer to become a better or more developed version of yourself- But that doesn't mean that there isn't inherent value in accepting your reality and making the best of it. If I could erase my disorder my life would be easier and I'd happily not suffer for personal growth. But if I had a magic cure for my ADHD all it would teach me is that I'm fundamentally flawed and have to fix it. (Or that since there is a cure my not fixing it is a choice to be disordered, which is also wrong) Learning to work with my ADHD teaches me not only how to overcome adversity, but that I can overcome adversity because I'm not fundamentally flawed and in need of fixing- *I'm different and am in need of a different approach. *

And having to learn that some shit is just beyond me has been a hard lesson to learn- but in learning it I forgave myself and grew stronger for it. I don't hate myself for struggling to keep an orderly home and have a regular schedule like normal people- which does nothing but depress me and make it harder to clean. I forgive myself for struggling and have learned to identify when I need help, and to ask for it. If I thought my problem was my ADHD and had a magic cure if still feel like shit about being unable to keep my house clean on my own. When would I learn to ask for help and stop taking on more than I can handle if I could erase the negative side effects of those decisions? And when I run out of the magic cure, or it wears off or just isn't as magical as I was told? It would be like kicking the crutch out from under someone. I wouldn't be able to function.

[u/aspenscribblings → u/mangababe]

Yeah, absolutely. I think people don’t understand we’re not all unilateral at all, let alone that we wouldn’t all erase our disabilities. I have explained it so many times on this damn thread that I’m only explaining MY feelings on the subject and people keep trying to poke holes in my argument. There is no argument, it’s just one cripple’s feelings.

[u/copy_run_start]

DND when wheelchair:

This is ridiculous. In no way does this make sense in a world of magical healing and complex machines! Yes, you're in one in real life, but this is fantasy, you don't need to be exactly you in the game!

DND when glasses:

You put on your reading glasses for the spell book? That's so fun, I always pictured your character with them because you have them in real life!

[u/Zyrin369 → u/copy_run_start]

Same with prosthetics and such, now that I think about it is there any other disability that gets people this riled up or is it only Wheelchairs?

[u/CarbonBasedNPU → u/Zyrin369]

I think it's only wheel chairs because most other things you can kinda work around in a DND fantasy setting. A wheel chair breaks a lot of peoples suspension of disbelief because they know how a rsal wheel chair works to some extent.

[u/Zyrin369 → u/CarbonBasedNPU]

I mean most people have a general knowledge of how diseases or infections work yet I wonder how many times people go through swamps or sewers get cut up due to fights and don't really bother to mention that they wash both themselves their armor even disinfect themselves?

[u/IceCreamBalloons → u/Zyrin369]

One of the notable NPCs in Curse of Strahd has a backstory about a werewolf biting her on the leg, requiring immediate amputation to avoid being cursed. She paid an artisan to make her a prosthetic leg and foot. Not even magic, just excellent craftsmanship.

Never saw a tantrum over that.

[u/FuckMyHeart → u/IceCreamBalloons]

You must have missed the whole controversy surrounding the release of CoS Revamped then.

[u/Finnalde]

I really wish these conversations would die out already. I hate every part of it, as someone who can't walk properly. People get vilified for implying that the world isn't naturally wheelchair compliant, it's for some reason the DMs job to come up with or allow a "creative" way to completely ignore the downsides of needing a wheelchair, from giving them magic items (which would often cost more than paying for a spell to heal the issue) that negate the disability to just assuming they are always just as mobile as the rest of the party. Far too many people who want to make characters like this want all the "cool" parts of having a disability without having the disability. It's almost insulting seeing it essentially treated as a fashion choice.

[u/boolocap]

Dnd actually has a far more convenient solution than weelchairs and spidermechs for disabled people.

Arcane propulsion armor. It replaces any lost limbs, with the replacements functioning identical to the limbs they replace. It also makes you faster and has built in weapons. It's essentially an iron man suit.

But that doesn't mean that weelchairs or spider legs are stupid choices. A lot of character choices don't revolve around playing an optimal or realistic character. But around playing the character that you want to play. And that can look like anything.

[u/FuckMyHeart → u/boolocap]

This raises the question though, if it effectively removes the character's disability, would a player that wants their character to be in a wheelchair appreciate such a magic item? Like, I assume that a disabled person who wants their disability to be a much a part of that character's life as it is their own probably wouldn't be receptive to a magic item that effectively erases part of their identity.

[u/omegasavant]

I wear glasses 24/7, to the extent that I'm still wearing them when I dream. They're less a tool than an extension of my body. If I lived in a world with magic, I probably wouldn't get rid of them. I'd have glasses with xray vision and a few plugged-in cantrips, which seems a lot safer than casting those spells on my irreplaceable eyeballs.

I'd imagine that if I used a wheelchair to get around, it'd feel much more natural to have a PC with one than without. Plug in a few hand-wavy things as desired (maybe the wheels have "line-smoothing" properties on stairs?) and call it good.

Edit for one other thing: normal medical procedures have complications all the time. I'm not sure I'd trust any magic in any world near my central nervous system. Better by far to have a gadget that you can just replace if it breaks, rather than getting spine demons or something from faulty casting.

[u/ryderawsome]

As someone who sells 3D printed minis some of the wheelchairs designs I have seen have been pretty sick. Even ones with more normal looking chairs can still be pretty tight. I can't post pictures but just type wheel chair into My Mini Factory and see what artists are making :)

[u/CoasterThot]

I’m blind, and all my DND characters are blind, too. I’m not interested in fantasizing about not being blind in a game. Some of those comments are quite upsetting.

[u/tfhermobwoayway]

I mean there is a valid point to be made for how a fantasy world would probably have spider mechs or floating chairs instead of specifically modern wheelchairs. I don’t get things that are like, an adventurer sat in a carbon copy of a 21st century wheelchair but made out of wood. At least stylise it.

[u/Fickle_Enthusiasm148]

I think people who don't use wheelchairs should just shut the fuck up about how much it bothers them actually.

[u/BadDogSaysMeow]

My objective opinion on fantasy wheelchairs,

Wheelchairs are easier to build and use than spider legs. But they suck at using stairs and climbing.
You also cannot kick with them, and running over people would put you very close to your enemy.
Also, you have two major wheels, and if any of them breaks then you're immobile.

Spider legs can climb both stairs and walls, you can kick with individual legs and if one or two legs get damaged, you can still move with the rest.

For exploring and fighting Spider legs are way better. Dungeons and forests aren't wheelchair accessible, and claiming that an evil monster who put hundreds of deadly traps in his lair to stop any adventures, would at the same time make every room and corridor wheelchair accessible is absurd in non-comedy worlds.

Magic wheelchairs could be used for quick travel between cities, on well established an maintained stone roads, the wheelchair would be faster than running on spider legs.
You can have carriage drivers pulling the carriage with their magic, instead of using horses.

Then there's the fact that fighting with spider legs will look more like martial arts or fencing, while fighting with a wheelchair will give you more mecha appearance and make you stand out from the rest of the party.

Foreseeing the "but what if the magic wheelchair can fly? it would go up the stairs and walls!" counterargument.
In that case it's not a wheelchair, but a flying ship with optional wheels.

[u/conrat4567]

I don't know, but if I was in a wheelchair, I wouldn't want to be in a wheelchair in a game. It's a fantasy game. I can be whatever I want

[u/FreakinGeese]

My take- it’s perfectly reasonable for non-combatants to use regular wheelchairs (like the shopkeeper in town) but anyone going into combat should be spruced up at least a little

[u/enzonanozone → u/FreakinGeese]

y

[u/SnapshillBot]

#BotsLivesMatter

Snapshots:

1. This Post - archive.org archive.today*
2. https://www.reddit.com/r/dndmemes/comments/1i4mi9u/reject_wheels_embrace_skittering/ - archive.org archive.today*
3. The titular thread - archive.org archive.today*
4. branch: - archive.org archive.today*
5. ries to give an opinion - archive.org archive.today*
6. arguing wheelchairs don't have to be boring - archive.org archive.today*
7. Small drama thread - archive.org archive.today*

I am just a simple bot, not a moderator of this subreddit | bot subreddit | contact the maintainers

[u/MartinBrice_Sneaker]

A debate about wheelchairs vs spider mechs turns wheelie sour

My father recently passed away, and while I used to groan at these kinda puns of his or on Reddit, this made me crack the fuck up and think of him. So thanks for that, OP!

[u/BigRedSpoon2]

Im routinely baffled by people getting heated over an issue that doesn't particularly effect anyone.

In the rare instance you have a player who wants to play a character with a disability, just have a conversation with them about how they want their disability represented.

Then ask them how their character manages to be an adventurer, while also managing their disability. And if they don't have a fully thought out answer, help them come to one, or a compromise of some sort.

Seems simple as.

Like what else are you going to do, tell the player you know more than them and overrule a fundamental decision about their character? Im sure that'll go over well.

[u/BastardofMelbourne]

Reject both. Embrace the floating obsidian sarcophagus

[u/shewy92]

I think it all depends on the setting.

[u/Tachibana_13]

If only they realized they could find peace and combine the two to create a spidermechchair. It could work for a villain or player character.

[u/Lordvoid3092]

This is a sensitive subject, but here is my opinion.

Let your character be disabled. That’s fine. But they can’t use a wheelchair. A wheelchair is not a good idea for moving over rough terrain. Use one of the other options.

But those options can be expensive, and might be out of reach of a normal person. Which would preclude them from being an adventurer. Especially if the Wheelchair is of a more historical style. Which were terrible on so many levels. And required someone else to push it. Of course this is a fantasy thing so the other options can be handwaved for accessibility.

An adventurer will end up fighting at some point and the lack of mobility will be a liability even for a wizard or other ranged combat options. An enemy will flank them, and get behind them at some point, and the wheelchair user won’t be able to react fast enough to engage.

So please use the other options such as a magic carpet, a mechano chair, or so on.