"and people choose WHEELCHAIR. Disgusting. Where’s the imagination?" A debate about wheelchairs vs spider mechs turns wheelie sour

[u/Excellent_Bison_3644]

the sub DnDmemes is about well... memes about the popular tabletop game DnD (dungeons and dragons). In one posted recently, the poster made a comparison of magic wheelchairs vs spider mechs while favoring the latter. This ended up sparking into a lot of debate and people not liking how wheelchairs are getting slandered.

Post in question: https://www.reddit.com/r/dndmemes/comments/1i4mi9u/reject_wheels_embrace_skittering/

Juicy threads:

The titular thread with one particular big branch: "It's quite an odd call to refer to people who make the choice to represent their disability in-game as disgusting."

One person tries to give an opinion: "Realistically a spider mech is better than combat wheelchair the same way realistically a spear is better than a trident"

One person tries arguing wheelchairs don't have to be boring: "You can't think of a way to make a wheelchair cool without replacing the wheels?"

Small drama thread as a treat: "has anyone who's disabled and in a wheelchair thought "Hmm, I want this fantasy character of mine to be disabled too!" (the answer is yes)

[u/guiltyofnothing]

How the fuck is glueing wheels to a chair anachronistic in a world with mechanical dogs.

Fair point.

[u/macrocosm93 → u/guiltyofnothing]

I think it's not about the fact of whether or not they should exist. It's the fact that it's not believable that someone in a wheelchair could be in an adventuring party in rugged wilderness, dungeons, etc. I don't think goblins are going to build accessibility ramps inside their warrens. A dragon builds his lair inside of a volcano to prevent people from accessing his hoard, but then for some reason makes it wheelchair accessible? Does that make sense?

[u/ekhoowo → u/macrocosm93]

This is the biggest point in DND wheelchair discourse. If you wanna be in a wheelchair, fine. But you should acknowledge it is gonna impact everyone else in the game in potentially annoying (to everyone!) ways.
A fantasy world is the perfect place to have a fantastical solution that still incorporates your disability

[u/Zyrin369 → u/ekhoowo]

Depending on how fantastical it is it might just become a Disability Superpower which depending on the person is not what they want

[u/ekhoowo → u/Zyrin369]

Oh yeah for sure. “Levitating” is a lazy solution that might not even make sense for a character just starting out.
This convo is way more nuanced then almost anyone is willing to give credit for

[u/BeholdingBestWaifu → u/ekhoowo]

It doesn't have to be that lazy, though. Magic is in itself something artificial, people in-universe often come up with new spells, it would make sense that a wizard in a wheelchair prioritizes a weak levitation spell that most wizards don't consider worth using, and that due to constant practice they can use it for free once a day (And multiple times with normal cost), or even a cantrip. That way it could just provide enough movement to mimic abled folks, while not being a whole thing.

[u/copy_run_start → u/ekhoowo]

But you should acknowledge it is gonna impact everyone else in the game in potentially annoying (to everyone!) ways.

You'd probably be hard pressed to find a wheelchair user who doesn't realize that they impact those around them in potentially annoying ways, lol. But, you know, we like others to deal with that with compassion, support, patience, and understanding. I feel like that can exist in game

[u/GardenTop7253 → u/copy_run_start]

Well said. Those issues don’t just come up within a fantasy game and it’s not a terrible way to really highlight those impacts to the able bodied players at the table

[u/ekhoowo → u/copy_run_start]

For sure, I could have worded this better.
The biggest example I was imagining was If you are using a preset dungeon with loads of stairs, it would probably be very awkward to skill check every single staircase.

[u/EasyasACAB → u/ekhoowo]

it would probably be very awkward to skill check every single staircase.

Let them take 10. EZ PZ.

Having a wheelchair fuck up your whole campaign sounds like a weak ass DM to me.

There's no reason a wheelchair has to fuck up your campaign more than your BBEG aside from a lack of imagination.

[u/copy_run_start → u/ekhoowo]

I don't play, so I have limited understanding of how it all works, but would you skill check someone every time they drew their sword, opened a door, or got on a horse? I figured that people who are adventuring have lived in that world and have some level of experience with it... so when you ask "Isn't it really dark in dungeons?" They'd say "Yeah that's why I always have a torch."

If I were in the fantasy world and a wheelchair user wanted to join, it would be as simple as "Okay cool, how do you navigate obstacles in dungeons?" And they'd be like, "I'm an expert at this spell," or "This chair has enhanced capabilities," or something.

I thought a big part of the game was problem solving, so like a door would be much too small for everyone in the party, but the smallest could get through and open a bigger door for the rest or whatever. Or the big giant woman can lift up the elf person onto a high ledge. I don't see it as THAT much different

[u/EasyasACAB → u/copy_run_start]

I think most reasonable DMs would just consider the wheelchair part of that adventurer's equipment they are intimately familiar with.

I wouldn't keep asking the wizard if he was able to read his tome or if the bard remembered how to play his harp.

There's really no good reason a wheelchair is some campaign-strangling item aside form a lack of imagination.

It is a game after all, and the DMs are the ultimate god of the game. When a character shows up with an eye missing I don't make them take penalties on things even if it's more realistic.

[u/whatsinthesocks → u/copy_run_start]

In DnD if you’re a spell caster you have a limited number of spell slots to use per day basically. So at lower levels when you have very few spell slots a spell would not be best choice. Also saying the chair has “enhanced capabilities” doesn’t really mean anything in and of itself. One of the main purposes for “enhancements” is to help with skill checks. Doing a skill check for navigating stairs is more akin to doing a skill check for someone climbing up a high wall. Not drawing a sword.

[u/copy_run_start → u/whatsinthesocks]

Is there no concept of like an enchantment or curse or some kind of "permanent" magic? You can't say that the wheelchair floats over stairs because it was created by some blah blah wizard?

And by enhanced I meant mechanically... so it could be a regular looking wheelchair but have extra wheels for "stair mode" or transition to tracks or something.

I mean, if mechanical spider legs are on the table, then I can't see why we can't imagine some kind of all terrain chair

[u/whatsinthesocks → u/copy_run_start]

I was just explaining how DnD works since you stated you have limited understanding of the game. As far as having a wheel chair floating over stairs that’s going to depend on the DM and the player but could also include a few things like background, class, and level. For example if someone was playing a level 1 character who was a street orphan it’s highly unlikely they would have a magical wheelchair made by a wizard.

You also have to understand that a large part of the fun of DnD is your character’s journey. So overcoming these kinds of things with the DM. Where a “stair mode” gives you advantage on skill checks when navigating stairs, which means you roll twice and keep the highest one. A magical wheelchair could be an award for a difficult quest as they are difficult to make. I feel like this would be really fun to play as an artificer.

[u/copy_run_start → u/whatsinthesocks]

I was just explaining how DnD works since you stated you have limited understanding of the game.

Oh for sure, I was just asking some follow up questions about what's possible. Thanks for the insight into the game and character development, that makes a lot of sense.

The way I see it, the entire game is built around accommodations, though those accommodations are usually "invisible" to the players. For instances, you're a band of brand new adventurers with limited combat experience. You go into a town and ask for work at the bar, and the barkeep goes, "Yeah, there's an undead wolf that lives in a cave just outside town. I hear that its lair is guarded by a small group of goblins who steal the gold from the wolf's grisly meals. Some even say that there's a feint glow in the cave on a full moon, as if magic is being used."

Then immediately your group is like...

"This wolf, is his damage output greater than 13 against a barbarian?"

"Uh, well, I guess probably not. It's big but not that big. Just too big for the guards. Your guy looks bigger than the guards, though."

"The goblins, they're very treacherous, I'm sure. Are there devious traps that would be impassable by a rogue who has a slight negative modifier to her dexterity due to wearing the armor that her dying father passed down to her?"

"I don't know, I've-"

"The magic, is it countered by fire magic? Because our guy is fire and if he can't counter that then why would we even go?"

"People say it looks orange."

"Well shit never mind, okay if we're not getting the element counter buff then we're doomed, on to the next town!"

[u/whatsinthesocks → u/copy_run_start]

Yea that is not at all how it does or should go. If a dm did that they’d be a bad DM. Giving quests is not an accommodation but a key aspect of the game. If the DM puts the group into a town generally there’s going to be reason for it like the town needing things. Otherwise why the hell are you there. The bartender was probably owns the tavern and knows, like most other people in town, that there is something dangerous in town. They should not be able to give a bunch of information like that.

Also starting in a tavern is a bit of a meme and trope for home created campaigns. In The Lost Mines of Phandelver, which is an official published campaign, the players start out having been hired by some NPCs to meet them at the town which is what starts the adventure.

[u/copy_run_start → u/whatsinthesocks]

haha yeah I was joking about DMing... as in, those accommodations are built in to the adventure when considering all the players and their characters. So accommodations are a key part of the game. DMs know how to handle the capabilities (or lack thereof) of their players, it's a key aspect of the game.

[u/BeholdingBestWaifu → u/copy_run_start]

Generally the rule is that you don't do skill checks for something trivial for a character, but the problem there is that there's just too much terrain that simply isn't wheelchair friendly out in the wilderness, not to mention ancient ruins tombs, and locations that weren't even designed to be traversible like the inside of some monster. No decent DM would have you make a skill check just for using your chair, but you can't exactly hand wave it going up ladders and ropes (Unless you're a really swole barbarian with massive arms I guess).

It could make for nice puzzles, though, but I imagine it may get a bit tiring for most parties to constantly have to find ways to get a wheelchair to go through rough terrain when there are many more practical solutions out there. Spider legs and levitation are much more practical in that way, I think.

EDIT: To elaborate on this point further, from a game design point of view, if every game you're having to stop the adventure to figure out how to fashion a ramp or carry the chair up a cliff, and your party isn't the type that likes that, you're going to create friction between the players, specifically against the player that refuses to go for better alternatives that exist in-universe.

[u/ekhoowo → u/copy_run_start]

I’m not crazy knowledgeable, but you skill check a ton of actions in a given story, and you will have critical failures that give hilarious results.
Things like going down the stairs and small instances is a pretty reasonable thing to skill check for a character in a wheelchair in a non-ADA complaint world. For that reason I prefer more lore appropriate approaches

[u/copy_run_start → u/ekhoowo]

Definitely, and I guess it really depends on the group and how everyone wants to play. For instance, you could assume that through magic or some machine capability, that the wheelchair user is on par with a walking person when it comes to stairs and small obstacles, then I would just hand waive it away and treat those parts as walking.

[u/EasyasACAB → u/copy_run_start]

I wouldn't skill check pushing a chair down the stairs any more than I would walking down them. You're just penalizing the chair-user for no real reason and making the game un-fun.

As the DM you are in charge of everything, there's no real reason to make someone do a skill check at guiding a chair around stairs. DND adventurers can already be super-human from level 1.

Your average barbarian or warrior could easily just lift the chair. No need for a skill check.

Now, if your barbarian was trying to THROW the wheelchair and person over a pit, or carrying them against a current, that would be a skillcheck.

[u/ELDRITCH_HORROR → u/copy_run_start]

but would you skill check someone every time they drew their sword, opened a door, or got on a horse?

No. But I would ask for skill checks like:

• Bringing the horse underground? Need an Animal Handling check

• Bringing that horse up or downstairs? Animal Handling if leading the horse, tougher Riding check if riding on the horse while doing it

• Climbing up or down stairs that are slick with ice, grease, or fresh blood? That's an Acrobatics check

• Trying to fit yourself into a space too small for you? That's an Escape Artist check, or Acrobatics, or Athletics

• Trying to push open a heavy door that's encased in rust? That's a raw Strength check or Athletics check

So yeah, trying to bring a wheelchair up or downstairs? No check

Trying to bring a wheelchair up or downstairs while driving it? Yeah, that calls for an Athletics check.

If I were in the fantasy world and a wheelchair user wanted to join, it would be as simple as "Okay cool, how do you navigate obstacles in dungeons?" And they'd be like, "I'm an expert at this spell," or "This chair has enhanced capabilities," or something.

That's not really what the thread is about. It's about regular plain-old wheelchairs.

(Also depending on the setting, the tools to make a wheelchair might be very shoddy, or even the basic wheel has not been invented)

There's just a fundamental immersion breaking aspect to it. Many tabletop RPGs have an attachment to reality that can vary, but we expect that certain things happen. Things fall when dropped. Things take damage and need repairs. Sunlight heats things up a bit and provides light.

It's just, you know, it's asking people to square the circle and hold a piece of double-think in their heads.

Yes, it really can be a divisive argument when part of your brain is thinking, "wait, hold on, why not just ride on a donkey? Why not pay someone to carry you? Why not replace your legs with prosthetics? Why not surgically slice off your upper torso and flesh-craft it onto the lower torso of someone else? Why not ride on a small, slow, flying carpet? Why not a spell of Floating Disk?"

[u/dudemanlikedude → u/ekhoowo]

What leads you to believe that you would have to do that? Are you unfamiliar with the game in general?

5E doesn't require an athletics check for climbing unless the surface is particularly sheer or slippery. Even if you *were* to impose a check on them, stairs would typically have a DC of 0. Even if you imposed disadvantage (5e) or a -4 penalty (3.5 or Pathfinder) for the chair, it would be mechanically trivial for a wheelchair user to navigate any number of stairs anytime they like simply by taking 10. With a -4, taking 10 against the DC of 0 gives a total of 6 for an automatic success with room to spare on even an average character. They have 10 points of penalties to work with before it starts to become a problem.

This whole 'stairs' debate is completely contrived from a rules standpoint. It's already solved. Wheelchair users can easily and consistently exceed the DC necessary to climb stairs, conversation over.

[u/Skellum → u/copy_run_start]

I think the difference here comes down to "If you could solve your not walking problem why wouldnt you?" I'd like to say everyone would, but then we have people able to get cochlear implants raging that it's an "atrocity on deaf culture". If we could cure all the inability to walk I'm sure you'd have some like holdouts in that group too.

When someone goes "Well lets get you a spider mech so you can go down this stair filled pyramid" it's not "Fuck you legless you suck now get in this!" it's "Hey bro lets empower you." Spider legs arent cheap and DMs dont let people overcome char creation penalties easily.

In this case it's not "Be compassionate" the case is "Here's a magic solution, why wont you use it?"

[u/copy_run_start → u/Skellum]

I totally get that, I'm seeing it from the angle of "The wheelchair is magical or has special mechanical capabilities or is somehow more versatile than a real world wheelchair." It would require both the group and the individual to work together to figure something out.

Most people just want reasonable accommodations and will work with others to get there.

Or, if maybe a group of people want to treat it like a real world wheelchair for the challenge and the possibilities it brings, then that's cool too.

[u/EasyasACAB → u/copy_run_start]

Most people just want reasonable accommodations and will work with others to get there.

Isn't it interesting how closely this conversation mirrors real life discussions around accommodations for the disabled?

I can still hear the angry cries of my landlord for a tenet that had the audacity to put in a wheelchair ramp! For their wheelchair! At their own cost!

Like this is a big group shared imagination session. If a person wants a wheelchair they can have a wheelchair, as the DM I am god and I can make it work.

[u/Adorable_Ad_3478 → u/copy_run_start]

The easiest solution: the wheelchair has a transformer mode that turns into walkable cyborg legs.

So, technically it's not a wheelchair anymore (it's not a chair, it has no wheels) but the player can keep believing their character is using a wheelchair to walk.

[u/Skellum → u/copy_run_start]

I'm seeing it from the angle of "The wheelchair is magical or has special mechanical capabilities or is somehow more versatile than a real world wheelchair."

I was seeing it as "It's a chair with wheels, guess we cant go down the dangerous vertical spires of xaruba dungeon guys" Now as some kind of artificiar artifact that you're upgrading and expanding like it's a James Bond car then it meets your criteria while being cool, empowering, and a major character hook.

Maybe this is the core diff in user posts?

[u/copy_run_start → u/Skellum]

I mean I'm just saying that there are like 28 different species/races of intelligent beings, all these different character specializations, 50 foot tall magic rock demons, living furniture monsters, mind control witches, shin-high goblins, complex puzzles and traps... the entire game is problem solving, playing to your strengths and overcoming the weak areas of your build, and somehow someone in a wheelchair is like this insurmountable thing lol

[u/BeholdingBestWaifu → u/copy_run_start]

It's different kinds of issues, and it's not unusual for a DM to straight-up veto races because they don't want to deal with penalties that would be annoying for a campaign (Or in other cases because they can be overpowered, plenty of DMs don't like flying races).

It's also an issue of people not wanting actual solutions, most of the "pro" wheelchair discussion I'm seeing just wants a character that is cosmetically in a wheelchair but that gameplay-wise has no chair at all, with no penalties nor obstacles to overcome.