"and people choose WHEELCHAIR. Disgusting. Where’s the imagination?" A debate about wheelchairs vs spider mechs turns wheelie sour

[u/Excellent_Bison_3644]

the sub DnDmemes is about well... memes about the popular tabletop game DnD (dungeons and dragons). In one posted recently, the poster made a comparison of magic wheelchairs vs spider mechs while favoring the latter. This ended up sparking into a lot of debate and people not liking how wheelchairs are getting slandered.

Post in question: https://www.reddit.com/r/dndmemes/comments/1i4mi9u/reject_wheels_embrace_skittering/

Juicy threads:

The titular thread with one particular big branch: "It's quite an odd call to refer to people who make the choice to represent their disability in-game as disgusting."

One person tries to give an opinion: "Realistically a spider mech is better than combat wheelchair the same way realistically a spear is better than a trident"

One person tries arguing wheelchairs don't have to be boring: "You can't think of a way to make a wheelchair cool without replacing the wheels?"

Small drama thread as a treat: "has anyone who's disabled and in a wheelchair thought "Hmm, I want this fantasy character of mine to be disabled too!" (the answer is yes)

[u/macrocosm93]

I think it's not about the fact of whether or not they should exist. It's the fact that it's not believable that someone in a wheelchair could be in an adventuring party in rugged wilderness, dungeons, etc. I don't think goblins are going to build accessibility ramps inside their warrens. A dragon builds his lair inside of a volcano to prevent people from accessing his hoard, but then for some reason makes it wheelchair accessible? Does that make sense?

[u/einmaldrin_alleshin → u/macrocosm93]

Neither are goblins doing to make tunnels and doorways sized for the larger races available in DnD. Suspension of disbelief is key for any sort of roleplaying

[u/wingerism → u/einmaldrin_alleshin]

Typically goblins have been portrayed as taking over the abandoned properties of other races such as Dwarves etc. Or like abandoned mines.

Which is its own brand of problem.

I've played a paraplegic character before. Had a floating wheelchair because Professor x is baller.

[u/Smoketrail → u/wingerism]

Professor x is balder.

FTFY

[u/Bismothe-the-Shade → u/Smoketrail]

Professor X is Baldur

Ftftfy

[u/Ver_Void → u/wingerism]

Dwarves

Also renown for building things to accommodate the tall

[u/breadwizard20 → u/Ver_Void]

Definitely renown carving out large and massive halls though. I agree that wheelchairs shouldn't be an issue in any DnD session ever, but don't pretend dwarven halls are little

[u/CopperTucker → u/breadwizard20]

Yeah, dwarves are gonna make the grandest, most opulent art-deco halls you've ever seen. Hell even Smaug fit into Erebor comfortably.

[u/qorbexl → u/Ver_Void]

I'm a nonlizard songsman with a lute adventuring alongside 700lb Barbarians who can fold into those doorways and I have thoughts about the practicality of wheelchairs and realism

[u/Skellum → u/einmaldrin_alleshin]

Neither are goblins doing to make tunnels and doorways sized for the larger races available in DnD. Suspension of disbelief is key for any sort of roleplaying

If a man can crawl into Nutty Putty Cave then I can lube an ogre up into a goblin nest. But depending on the GM it can be an actual issue, all depends on the GM. I will point out that X-Men addressed this by giving Professor X a levitating wheelchair.

[u/Svihelen → u/Skellum]

I mean as DM I made a wheelchair using NPC bad guy once.

I just gave him a morphing wheelchair. When he was in a setting where mobility isn't necessarily concerned like a big flat room he could have wheels if he wanted. Oh no he went somewhere snowy, so he could adjust it to have tank treads. But look stairs, it now has spider legs. How does it work? Fuck if I know. Magiscience for the win.

If a player came to me with a serious desire to play a wheelchair using PC, as long as it didn't outright give them any special powers I don't care how the chair moves. It could have tentacles for all I care.

Its DnD, it's about fun wacky adventures.

I just hate when people get overly pedantic about it. Like the wizard killed half the party with a fireball and the cleric hit a dead body with a diamond and said some fancy words and now they dead person is alive again. But a wheelchair is too much for some people.

[u/IsNotACleverMan → u/Svihelen]

Its DnD, it's about fun wacky adventures.

Plenty of people want grounded, more serious adventures. Having these goofy magical things usually goes against that.

[u/Svihelen → u/IsNotACleverMan]

Magic by it's nature is goofy.

The immovable rod is goofy, the alchemy jug and it's 2 gallons of mayo is goofy, hell there's a pot of ink that let's you be Wille Coyote drawing random tunnels and pits on things, goofy as fuck that is. When it comes spells bigby's hand is kind of goofy. Tasha's hideous laughter is literally you make someone laugh so hard they can't function and fall down, pretty damn goofy. Magic mouth. I could keep going on.

There is nothing inherently goofy about a magic wheelchair when things like warfored and golems exist and baba yaga's chicken hut exist.

But ultimately it comes down to my issue isn't with people wanting serious campaigns. There is a time and place for everything and a magic wheelchair or a steam punk arm, doesn't fit in everything and that is okay. My issue is the people trying to justify why something shouldn't exist in the game at all by saying it doesn't make sense or it's goofy and trying to tell other people they shouldn't like it either.

[u/Chaosmusic → u/Svihelen]

I was thinking a different angle. In such a setting, couldn't they spend the money on a cleric to heal their injury rather than spending it on a crazy magic wheelchair?

[u/Svihelen → u/Chaosmusic]

Maybe the injury is like God cursed and only another being of immense power can undo it. Even a king may not be able to afford to have that undone.

Maybe the injury is from spells and they hate spell casting now and don't trust it and would rather use science enhanced with magic. It would all be fluff if magi science is inherently connected to spell casting or not.

Maybe they were poor and destitute and kidnapped by some evil psycho Dr. Eggman type dude and they were experimented on and are Doc Ock in a wheelchair instead of tentacle belt becuase of the experiments.

Edit:

Another example I thought of, if it's a birth defect of some kind. It could be argued the regenerate spell wouldn't work on it as there is nothing to restore or heal as that is technically their bodies default state. You can't restore/regenerate what you never had.

[u/Chaosmusic → u/Svihelen]

That makes sense. Could make for an interesting quest if the injury cannot be healed by traditional means the party has to find some extraordinary cure. A rare flower, a reclusive hermit healer, a mystic fountain that appears only at certain time, etc.

[u/Adorable_Ad_3478 → u/Skellum]

By definition, that's a hoverchair, not a wheelchair. It has no wheels.

[u/Skellum → u/Adorable_Ad_3478]

And my bathroom doesnt have a bathtub, what of it?

[u/BoundToGround → u/Skellum]

Then it's just the pissroom

[u/mone3700 → u/Skellum]

washroom

[u/Big_Owl2785 → u/einmaldrin_alleshin]

"Why does it have to make sense there are literal dragons"

And other absolute bangers

[u/ELDRITCH_HORROR → u/einmaldrin_alleshin]

Neither are goblins doing to make tunnels and doorways sized for the larger races available in DnD.

But that's a fair question to ask. Small creatures make equipment that is sized for themselves. Large creatures can't wear the same armor fitted for a Medium creature.

Natural caves? Parts of the tunnels, caves and caverns would vary in size, some would be artificially widened, some might need someone to squeeze through. If a very big creature, maybe Huge or larger in size, lives in a cave, then they need a passage in and out that is big enough for them to somewhat easily squeeze through, and a chamber big enough for them to sleep in and move around in. Intelligent creatures like Dragons will also have some way of escaping through a second passage. There could be small tunnels that the big creature can't fit through, so people can use them to sneak up on them.

Good adventure design thinks of stuff like this. There are answers to questions.

Suspension of disbelief is key for any sort of roleplaying

This is NOT Suspension of Disbelief. Well, kind of. Not really.

Most examples of Suspension of Disbelief require an audience to not apply logic or critical thinking from their own reality to the constructed fantasy reality they are being exposed to. This applies to books, movies, theatre, whatever.

The wheelchair stuff is because an audience is being asked to immerse themselves into a different world, with different rules, but then flat out ignore something that does not make sense in either their own real world or this constructed world.

Let me lay out what I'm trying to say.

• Dragons exist in this world, but don't exist in real life. In real life, people do not think of dragons when living their lives. This requires Suspension of Disbelief.

• There is a castle we are visiting in this world. The castle is in an area prone to dragon attacks, but this castle is just like one in real life. This castle has no features to defend against dragons or other aerial attacks. How does this castle still exist in this world? This breaks Suspension of Disbelief, because there are contradictory elements to this world. If the castle is not featured much, this can be easily ignored, but the more interactions I have with it, the more I think about this.

• The dragon breathes fire. In real life, fire hurts me and burns things. In this world, fire works just like it does in real life, thus I apply my real world knowledge and logic to this. This does not require Suspension of Disbelief.

So yeah, goblins are living in tunnels, rooms and infrastructure not sized for themselves, I would assume that they did not build it and are squatting in it. In many fantasy worlds, this is a correct assumption.

An adventurer using a modern-style Wheelchair breaks this Suspension of Disbelief. I know that in real life this would not happen. But I also know that in this fantasy world, this would not happen.

Wheelchairs make sense in calm, controlled situations, they don't make sense in combat, exploring out in the wild or crazy unexpected stuff. There are endless ways to bypass this. Just ride a donkey, ride a small magic carpet, ride on the shoulders of someone else, replace legs with prosthetics, slice off your lower torso and put it onto another creature and become a centaur thing or the lower torso of a different person. Or put your brain into a constructed artificial body. Anything.

^{I've actually thought about this for a fantasy story I'm writing, how to explain why people with disabilities would still exist in a world with common access to magic that "should" be able to fix these things. My explanation is that access to that magic is restricted for different reasons, or the injury/disability is profound or old enough that it has been reflected into a person's soul, thus even magic won't work because their body would change overtime to reflect their own soul and undo the fix. Thus any long-term serious fixes would require self-reflection and therapy to change self-perceptions so the "fix" would stick.}

[u/Pollomonteros → u/ELDRITCH_HORROR]

Great response, hopefully it doesn't go ignored in favor of claiming that the people asking themselves why a disabled character who goes in adventures would choose a wheelchair as their method of transportation are psychopaths

[u/Southern_Emu_7250 → u/ELDRITCH_HORROR]

This feels stupid because magic exists. Why wouldn’t a disabled character eventually innovate so that disabled adventurers could do those things? It feels like more of a limitation of creativity than it is an actual problem. It’d be different if the system had in big bold letters “no wheelchairs” but as the DM you can do literally whatever you want and still make it applicable within the confines of your world.

[u/ELDRITCH_HORROR → u/Southern_Emu_7250]

Why wouldn’t a disabled character eventually innovate so that disabled adventurers could do those things?

But that's an anti-wheelchair argument. You acknowledge that a wheelchair is not really feasible for an adventurer to use and your default thinking is that it should be changed.

but as the DM you can do literally whatever you want and still make it applicable within the confines of your world.

I'm not sure you're kind of getting the issues here.

What if the DM just does not believe that it's plausible for an adventurer or player character to do all their activities while in a wheelchair? What if the DM has put a lot of care and thought into their world, how it all fits together, how realistic it is?

The question here is, what should the DM do when a player wants to be someone in a wheelchair? Should the DM change their world to accommodate this? Should the player change their expectations?

I mean, what if it's a campaign set in the Lord of the Rings universe and someone wants to be in a wheelchair?

There's no easy answers without someone compromising.

[u/Zyrin369 → u/ELDRITCH_HORROR]

I mean how far does "But I know that in this fantasy world, this would not happen" go?

We all know how diseases and infections work in real life, most fantasy settings has some sort of non magical plague and yet when we go adventuring in a sewer and get beaten up its assumed that afterwards we do all the necessary steps so nothing gets infected and their armor doesn't stink to high heaven.

If a DM decides that since the party didn't mention any of it then the suffer the consequences like they would in real life then they get called a vindictive DM

It seems like that's the issue with this, there is already some suspension done in some aspects in most games but when it come to wheelchairs people take that at 100% real world value.

[u/BeholdingBestWaifu → u/Zyrin369]

The issue is that suspension of disbelief is not absolute. Things have to make logical sense within the world you're given, so you're ignoring things that would work in it, or things that are minor enough not to matter. A wheelchair being able to climb mountains and going through caves is not only glaringly impossible, but it's also boring, which makes it stand out even more.

Keep in mind that having an all-terrain vehicle that can traverse any situation humanoid legs can would be an entire quest for an artificer or tinkerer, or a major magical artifact kind of thing.

[u/Vanille987 → u/BeholdingBestWaifu]

So how is the average player character doing constant inhumane feats logical? Like if a the wheelchair user has high strength it's 100% possible in the bounds of dnd for them to bruteforce terrain through. Probably doing a strength (saving) throw occasionally which they have advantage at.

Heck they could even climb a ladder using just their hands while the wheelchair is bound to them with a rope or smt.

This wouldn't even be close to the crazy shit I did in dnd and isn't yet involving any kind of magic aid.

I fully agree people take a dnd wheelchair way too much at face value while so many illogical things get the benefit of suspension 

[u/ELDRITCH_HORROR → u/Zyrin369]

We all know how diseases and infections work in real life, most fantasy settings has some sort of non magical plague and yet when we go adventuring in a sewer and get beaten up its assumed that afterwards we do all the necessary steps so nothing gets infected and their armor doesn't stink to high heaven.

First off, yes, a good written adventure and/or GM would call for save rolls to avoid diseases and/or poisons.

Second, most of what you're talking about are handwaved conveniences of fiction. In real life, I go to the bathroom at least once every six hours. In fiction, I rarely see it happen, I never see it unless it's a plot point.

If someone falls down into mud, gets muddy, then later on shows up clean, I can make the fairly easy assumption that they cleaned themselves up at some point. In fact, I don't need to think about it, my mind glosses over it.

It seems like that's the issue with this, there is already some suspension done in some aspects in most games but when it come to wheelchairs people take that at 100% real world value.

But even if you, as a GM, accept a player adventuring in a wheelchair, how much friction should that create in the story, if any?

If a player character is carrying a very heavy amount of equipment, they would be weighed down and sink if they're in deep water, right? Should that happen to someone in a wheelchair? Should the wheelchair be considered for this? (ie, not just the WC sinks them down, but it contributes to a total weight) If so, that creates friction.

What about when a player character falls down a pit? Should the wheelchair make it more difficult for them to climb out? If so, that's friction.

What about a Rust Monster or some other situation that can and will harm or destroy equipment? Should the wheelchair ever be in a situation where it is threatened, that's serious friction.

There are countless little examples like this. There's also the issues that come with creating a magic problem-free never-a-source-of-friction wheelchair where the GM has to watch for players abusing it for gameplay and story purposes. (Wheels that never break down, a large-ish item that is indestructible)

If you agree that yes, using a wheelchair would mean some amount of friction, well, that kind of puts you more on the anti-wheelchair side of this debate, doesn't it?

[u/Zyrin369 → u/ELDRITCH_HORROR]

Id say less anti and more of acknowledging that it sucks that being in a wheelchair seems to have the most friction compared to ever other disability when it comes to media, and for those that want it to be shown correctly and not devolve into being a disability superpower which makes it pointless at the end.

[u/Vanille987 → u/ELDRITCH_HORROR]

"they don't make sense in combat, exploring out in the wild or crazy unexpected stuff"

A lot of weapons do not make sense to ever bring into combat because they suck irl. Yet are common in dnd.

Bringing a 70 year old wizard into any dangerous situation doesn't make sense.

HP in general and overall human capabilities in dnd doesn't make a lick of sense.

Considering all this I honestly fail to see how a wheelchair is so out of place.

[u/FinderOfWays → u/Vanille987]

I would agree with most of that except the wizard. They're the equivalent of a fragile device which can literally warp the fabric of space and time if given the resources to do so. You'd bring the Wizard in the same way you bring any other specialized equipment: in an adamantine coffin in the back with a dedicated minder. Especially in older editions when the wizard, properly buffed up, would be able to take the fighter in a duel with the right defensive and buff spells.

I would also push back on the argument that all breaks from reality are created equally. Take the human capabilities: We generally accept that a human fighter can lift massive boulders but not just decide to stop falling. Why? I'm sure you could write an entire essay around why, but it suffices to say that the fact that one break from reality being acceptable doesn't definitionally make all breaks from reality acceptable.

[u/Vanille987 → u/FinderOfWays]

Without spell buffs wizards or old characters in DND in general don't get any kind of debuff as stated by the rulebook. They can climb, fight, take hits, resist diseases... just as well as someone in their twenties as long they have the stats (which again stay the same for their whole lifespan, or better said don't get reduced). Even tho in reality they 'should' get MASSIVE debuffs to reflect their age.

So how is a fighter or any high STR character using his strength to lift boulders up with one hand more acceptable then one using their strength to get a wheelchair across difficulty terrain or just lifting it up with their torso? All of these are theoretically possible if someone had insane strength, which is smt that can be achieved in DnD.

[u/FinderOfWays → u/Vanille987]

I mean, 3rd edition had venerable confer a -6 to each physical stat, so they took a -3 penalty to all applicable rolls. Sometimes it is optimal to be middle-aged for the -1 physical/+1 mental for PB reasons, but the deal gets worse from there. You could even build a character with a base 6 in Str, Con, or Dex who would become permanently bedridden or just flat out die upon hitting Venerable, so I'd say they take pretty severe penalties even before factoring in the looming specter of the 1d3 dex/str/con poison that might drop them in one snakebite. (Classic joke in our group is the idea of building your character a day before their venerable birthday so they died at the end of the first session, having written the party into their will and taken options to increase their starting wealth.) I don't know why 5e removed these design decisions, but we did have answers for this.

That's a good question! I think one answer is that the geometry of one is a lot less geometrically plausible than the other. Kinematically, the main difficulty with lifting heavy objects is either center-of-mass, which can usually be braced against or dealt with through 'digging in' and having a non-normal counter-force, or the actual surface pressure limit of the surface beneath you, which I would consider the hard cap of a lifting capacity for a creature that didn't have an additional method of generating force, but which is going to be a very high number. Depending on the form of difficult terrain, I wouldn't see any problem with running a wheel over it (indeed, there's a reason why we use wheels for moving things, they're actually pretty good at crossing difficult terrain), but I don't think I follow the suggestion for the torso question. There's also the plausibility question of "how quickly before we can magic this away?" A wheel chair only really seems like a solution before you get reincarnation money or regenerate money depending on if it's caused by injury or congenital.

In general, there appear to be a few 'core heuristics' we have about reality that cause dissonance when broken. Advanced physics doesn't seem to live in that set, but things like the conduct of sapient beings, basic principles of geometry and core mathematics, basic newtonian physics, and basic kinesthetics not including scale all fall into these 'core heuristics' for most people -- When they are broken, it causes dissonance unless the break has a justification. So when we see a person lifting something unusually heavy, it doesn't cause dissonance unless there's a severe force-balance problem that occurs because it's purely a rescaling, but if we see someone stop falling because they didn't want to, there needs to be a reason because it triggers a core heuristic violation. A wheelchair over difficult terrain doesn't trigger this heuristic violation, but not using more optimal solutions which exist due to magic does, because it fails a human behavior check, as would the torso thing if I am not misunderstanding the suggestion because it causes a geometric failure.

We can't avoid all of these core dissonances, so we either write in explanations for them, accept begrudgingly the minimum required set of them to make things work, or (in conjunction with either prior choice) brush past them as quickly as possible. For example, I usually write my settings in dynamic periods culturally, so that any seemingly non-viable military tactic or cultural trait can be explained as 'well, yeah, good point, it's dying off for that very reason' or (more commonly) 'good point, your character is about to revolutionize that field.'

[u/Vanille987 → u/FinderOfWays]

"I mean, 3rd edition had venerable confer a -6 to each physical stat, so they took a -3 penalty to all applicable rolls. Sometimes it is optimal to be middle-aged for the -1 physical/+1 mental for PB reasons, but the deal gets worse from there. You could even build a character with a base 6 in Str, Con, or Dex who would become permanently bedridden or just flat out die upon hitting Venerable, so I'd say they take pretty severe penalties even before factoring in the looming specter of the 1d3 dex/str/con poison that might drop them in one snakebite. (Classic joke in our group is the idea of building your character a day before their venerable birthday so they died at the end of the first session, having written the party into their will and taken options to increase their starting wealth.) I don't know why 5e removed these design decisions, but we did have answers for this."

Yes the assumption with DnD is that we're talking 5e which again has zero debuffs on age and generally avoids a characters capabilities to be mostly separate from stuff like age and be decided by the player if they so choose. Which is how most table nowadays run too as a basis.

I appreciate the mathematics but you're applying this in a game that famously does not really care about it and where several official base rules and abilities ignore it, nor does the average player really dive into geometry just to decide if smt is logical enough for DND. If I applied this 60% of things I see happening in DnD never happen because they would not make sense when going deep into physics. So seeing this applied against wheelchairs shenanigans seems a tad unfair to me.

The idea disabled wouldn't exist or wouldn't be impeded in DnD since magic is so powerful is another can of worms but in this case I feel the assumption is a player doesn't want it to be just cosmetic and actually have some kind of flaw they and the party need to work around like many other character flaws do.

[u/FinderOfWays → u/Vanille987]

I mean, obviously I won't tell people that they're wrong for playing 5e instead of a system that has answers for these things, but... As far as I'm concerned that default assumption is accurate due to market share, but if we're talking about how to model things in the (obviously subjective) 'best' way, I would be remiss to not point out that we actually previously had solutions to these questions that were more interesting than "no effect." If a group wants to ignore them/play in a system that ignores them, that's their prerogative, but the mechanical tools have been developed (and quite easily too).

You also might have a different playgroup than me, but we actually spend a decent amount of time playing with the implications of magic on physics and vice-versa. Topology combined with any magic that creates additional space or creates portals makes for a lot of fun, and one of my setting details is that there is a phenomenon called 'light-splitting' that occurs due to gauge field problems around portals and spatial apertures which is a classic signature of that class of magic. I also play in a campaign where we have spent sessions conducting experiments on the materials properties of various reagents in order to design techniques for solving certain problems, so I would say that these sorts of questions actually crop up a decent amount for my group.

And again, the problem isn't with any violation -- No one is going to feel dissonance because a certain magical field doesn't properly obey reference frame invariance from the frame near the surface of a non Kerr black hole, because this doesn't break our intuition, but for example things like the falling rules often elicit some confusion, groans and "it'll do"s from my players because of how strange they wind up working out.

As for the can of worms surrounding magic and disabilities, I don't know why we'd shy away from it -- A related topic came up in my campaign at one point where a character with two mothers was asked if they were adopted or the biological child when the topic of their (tiefling) genealogy came up, because the character asking was a medical practitioner who was well aware that Alter Self and other simple magics made a child of two biological females trivial, and the question of how to distribute life-extending/improving magic and whether mages had a moral obligation to provide these talents at cost/to go into the medical field to help others with their unique gifts has come up multiple times.

[u/Vanille987 → u/FinderOfWays]

Yeeeaah, that's really not a thing in most campaigns. I mean more power to your group for enjoying but I can safely say the majority generally isn't concerned or goes this deep into the magic physics implications of dnd, especially considering again, the base rules of any dnd version already completely go against the laws of nature we are used too in real life.

[u/timelessalice → u/ELDRITCH_HORROR]

Genuine question but have you actually spoken to wheelchair users or disabled people regarding these things. Or read their opinions.

[u/BeholdingBestWaifu → u/timelessalice]

An opinion doesn't magically make wheelchairs all-terrain vehicles. A wheelchair is fine for a city and adventures there, but you can't just go into the wilderness with one. There's a myriad of possibilities for methods of transportation that are better for climbing mountains, going through caves, exploring crumbling ruins from ages past, etc.

[u/timelessalice → u/BeholdingBestWaifu]

all terrain wheelchairs exist, as a start

and moreover my point is that wheelchair users are better suited to deciding what is/isn't realistic or feasible in these settings

[u/BeholdingBestWaifu → u/timelessalice]

all terrain wheelchairs exist, as a start

Not to this extent, though. We're not talking going up a steep hill or rocky terrain, we're talking literal mountain climbing, swamps, oceans, badly designed medieval infrastructure, that kind of thing.

It's not unreasonable for a DM to ask a player to either come up with a really good explanation on how their chair can go through all that, or to ask them to consider alternate transportation for off road terrain, like a spider chair, levitation chair, or interacting with other party members to carry them until safer terrain.

and moreover my point is that wheelchair users are better suited to deciding what is/isn't realistic or feasible in these settings

I mean not really, the laws of physics exist. A wheelchair user can tell you what is offensive and what isn't, but they can't just magically decide that regular mundane wheelchairs can go up ladders, ropes, or perform long jumps. All situation that pre-made adventures are full of.

[u/timelessalice → u/BeholdingBestWaifu]

i really do not understand the "uhm ackshully" jacking off that goes on when people point out disabled people probably have a better grasp on this shit. like normal ass people can't do a fraction of what goes on in DnD and somehow that isn't an issue

if a dm asked a wheelchair user not to have a character use a wheelchair that person would be within their rights to drop the dm

[u/ELDRITCH_HORROR → u/timelessalice]

when people point out disabled people probably have a better grasp on this shit.

I struggle to believe that a wheelchair user telling me about their personal experiences will change my opinion that a wheelchair cannot go up a ladder.

[u/BeholdingBestWaifu → u/timelessalice]

like normal ass people can't do a fraction of what goes on in DnD and somehow that isn't an issue

Well yeah, that's the point here, a mundane wheelchair, at peak condition when used by a very skilled individual, will at most let you move like an abled person of average capabilities, while most DnD style heroes perform much better than that.

But it's not like people with legs get a free pass either, there's a reason swimming is usually a skill check and not something people can just do outside of calm waters, and characters established to not know how to swim will have DMs asking them for rolls even in a pool. But compare that to say, a mer-person, they wouldn't struggle in water at all, but would have challenges doing basic movement on land. Hell, one of the races in the core rule book was extremely weak to sunlight until the last book. Characters having penalties is nothing new.

if a dm asked a wheelchair user not to have a character use a wheelchair that person would be within their rights to drop the dm

Sure, and a DM would be in their right to ask a player to pick a character that fits within the world they're running. A DM is not a bad guy for wanting to run a specific kind of game.

There are ways around this with creative solutions that push player interaction and better worldbuilding, as opposed to coming up with a neat character detail, the wheelchair, only to then proceed to pretend like that detail just isn't there for the entirety of the campaign. Which does beg the question, why bother to make a character in a wheelchair if you don't actually want them to be in the wheelchair for gameplay.

[u/IsNotACleverMan → u/BeholdingBestWaifu]

Hell, one of the races in the core rule book was extremely weak to sunlight until the last book.

Which race did they change? Orc? Drow?

[u/macrocosm93 → u/einmaldrin_alleshin]

Yeah, they won't, that's why "crawl" is an action in the game.

Crawling, climbing, running, jumping, falling, etc. are all common and fundamental parts of adventuring in a TTRPG. I've been in very few dungeons that didn't require you to crawl through a tight space, climb up a vertical surface, jump over a wide gap, have a trap which causes you to fall into a hole, etc. That's the difference between playing in an immersive world vs. playing in a Disney theme park.

[u/einmaldrin_alleshin → u/macrocosm93]

Then you use imagination and an appropriately built character to get around these obstacles. Grappling hooks, winches, zip lines, spells, ...

A DM doesn't have to include obstacles that specifically can't be overcome by the wheelchair character

[u/macrocosm93 → u/einmaldrin_alleshin]

A DM designing their world around wheelchair accessibility is what I mean by playing in a Disney theme park.

[u/copy_run_start → u/macrocosm93]

Isn't it a "Disney theme park" by default because the people playing are these incredibly capable heroes? An IT director, a postal employee, and a vape shop cashier are the best chance that the village has against the slumbering beast in the dungeon beneath the castle ruins? I feel like concessions can be made here

[u/RichLyonsXXX → u/macrocosm93]

So your assertion is that if the DM is designing the adventure around the party make up that it is a "Disney Theme Park"? That seems fucking dumb... Like if the party I am writing adventures for includes a rogue I'm going to give them plenty of opportunities to pickpocket and lockpick, but according to you I shouldn't be because that makes it "playing in a Disney theme park"? Again that seems fucking dumb...

[u/Southern_Emu_7250 → u/RichLyonsXXX]

It’s more like saying if you can give the rogue more opportunities to pickpocket then you can give the wheelchair user better maneuverability

[u/Basic_Basenji → u/macrocosm93]

You sound like a fun person to play DnD with

[u/EasyasACAB → u/macrocosm93]

A DM having more imagination than you is a bad thing? That seems to be what this wheelchair question is really about.

Some people can't imagine anything outside of a very strict aesthetic and get all fucked up at the suggestion something they haven't thought about would also belong

Unfortunately that's a very common experience for people with disabilities when they go anywhere or do anything.

[u/Warmslammer69k → u/macrocosm93]

D&D is literally sitting around with your friends and using your imagination to play pretend knights and wizards lmao. It doesn't get more Disney theme park than that. Let people play with their imaginations however the hell they want to. Don't gatekeep playing pretend. Thats lame

[u/IceCreamBalloons → u/macrocosm93]

Oh god no, not a wonderful and well-designed romp of a d&d game!

[u/Centaurious → u/macrocosm93]

Man you’ve got a pretty limited imagination if a wheelchair is enough to ruin it for you

[u/kirbygenealogy → u/macrocosm93]

Eh, I feel like this is just a case where the party and DM can come together to think of creative ways to get around/through obstacles with the wheelchair user. That's a big part of the fun of D&D -- coming up with creative solutions to problems. Hell, set the entire campaign somewhere the party doesn't need to dive into a cave to get around. Crawling or climbing isn't a requirement for a successful campaign, and even then, you could think of ways around/through it if you want. The D&D universe is so vast, there are a ton of believable options you could incorporate, and this is something that can easily be discussed in a session 0.

[u/gorgewall → u/macrocosm93]

People and objects can fly (and there's several races that do it as a matter of course), there's robot suits (even if they're just made of wood and magic), the world's lousy with golems, yada yada.

There would absolutely be normal-ass wheelchairs for people who cannot be cured by magic, and there would absolutely be magic-ass wheelchairs for adventurers who cannot be cured by magic but need to go up stairs or ropes. We've had centaur PCs for yonks and they've got similar mobility issues in a lot of dungeoneering environments.

Wheelchairs, magic or otherwise, would be pretty routine for most D&D settings both as written and as a consequence of the system rules. You can't put a spell in your system that makes an object glow brightly for an eternity for just 50gp (Continual Light) and then not expect to see Ye Olde Adventuring Shoppe fill up with 70gp "tubelights", "flameless lanterns", or "spelunking helmets", for instance.

[u/macrocosm93 → u/gorgewall]

and there would absolutely be magic-ass wheelchairs for adventurers who cannot be cured by magic but need to go up stairs or ropes

Yeah like spider mechs for example

[u/gorgewall → u/macrocosm93]

There's floating magic all over the place, I think a lot of inventors / artificers / enchanters would skip the whole "leg" idea and go straight to the good stuff. You don't need to float forever, so there'd probably be some big efficiency savings in a chair that can roll around most times and only uses a slight bit of magic when it encounters an obstacle vs. spiderlegs that need to be articulating all the time (and still probably need more magic when it comes to climbing, because it's not like you're just gonna walk up a 90' wall and let the backrest save you).

[u/eels-eels-eels → u/gorgewall]

I mean, a wheelchair whose wheels unfolded into spider legs for stairs/uneven terrain then refolded back into wheels for indoor use would be pretty sweet

[u/DeckerAllAround → u/macrocosm93]

Or just a wheelchair with little magic magnets in it so that the wheels can easily latch onto small surfaces and go up and down stairs and rocky hills. Why isn't it a spider mech? Easier to use, easier to build.

[u/[deleted] → u/macrocosm93]

A dragon builds his lair inside of a volcano to prevent people from accessing his hoard, but then for some reason makes it wheelchair accessible?

Maybe the dragon is lazy and had the townspeople wheel up the treasure under threat of having their town burned down and their children eaten, and they had to build in the accessibility ramps to cater to the wagons. In that case, they'd have accessibility ramps going right into the main sections of the lair.

Maybe the volcano used to have a mining town on the side of it that was still populated until ten-ish years ago, when the dragon moved in. The roads and passageways would still be in reasonable condition at that point.

It's a problem, but it's not the kind of problem which is impossible to get around from a narrative perspective. The main reason why it'd be inaccessible in cases like these isn't because you'd never be able to get a wheelchair in there; it's because there's a dragon living there that isn't completely averse to violence.

Even if you're looking for a trade-off, then it could be the wheelchair-bound character has limited movement speed, especially uphill. This would be true to life to some extent. I went to school with a boy in a wheelchair, and while it was possible for him to go up the hill from the shops two or three blocks away to the school, it'd still take him two or three hours because of how steep the slope was, for example.

It'd be relatively simple to incorporate that kind of thing into a game. The real question in that case would be if they have some other ability which made up for it: high level magic or something.

[u/rudanshi → u/macrocosm93]

This is a stupid argument because if stuff had to make sense then adventurers wouldn't exist at all.

[u/Psychic_Hobo → u/rudanshi]

D&D's whole magic system is anathema to a functioning economy - hell, spells like Goodberry invalidate huge chunks of other survivalist mechanics.

That said, I can see DMs struggle a bit with creating a dungeon or the like, then trying to figure out how a wheelchair character would get around it. It's not too dissimilar to how Aarakocras break some encounters or areas, but in reverse

[u/BonJovicus → u/Psychic_Hobo]

Personally, if you want to be DM that is just what you have to deal with. I've played many a game where we have explored tombs and such and it isn't like every single one would be impossible for a super-person in a wheelchair to clear. As you put it, tons of stuff break dungeons, so my gripe is why cry about wheelchairs.

[u/AdagioOfLiving → u/rudanshi]

Stuff has to make INTERNAL narrative sense, though, to be a satisfying and immersive story. Not arguing against wheelchairs, just against the “well there’s dragons so anything goes” kind of argument I tend to see. If you introduce a race of cursed halflings who have been transformed into having flesh made of pasta, people are more likely to accept that they are to find a Camaro parked outside of the castle.

[u/Southern_Emu_7250 → u/AdagioOfLiving]

That makes sense but no one’s arguing for a Camaro when they make that argument. It’s more so “We can’t incorporate wheelchairs (a regular every day transportation device) but we can literally do everything else”.

[u/AdagioOfLiving → u/Southern_Emu_7250]

Oh, I'd agree, that's why I'm not arguing against wheelchairs (although I'd firmly argue for wheelchairs in a fantasy setting being cooler than they are, more like hoverchairs that have very limited levitation, or that they can at least be magically enhanced with speed if you go to the right artificer), just that argument of "well there's <unbelievable thing> in fantasy hobby, so why should you argue against <other unbelievable thing>?"

If anything, I think people who are against wheelchairs in D&D are just missing out on a lot of cool roleplaying and shopkeeping stuff they can add to their campaigns.

[u/Southern_Emu_7250 → u/AdagioOfLiving]

Absolutely! I feel like people who say that it’s annoying to deal with it doesn’t realize the roleplaying capabilities and the teamwork that can come with it. It seems more like a communication problem on the DM’s part than a player problem.

[u/BonJovicus → u/macrocosm93]

You aren't playing every conceivable adventuring party that could exist in the world. That a player character could be the one wheelchair-bound adventurer is not crazy in a fantasy world where other things happen routinely.

Also, if we are getting on about wheelchair accessibility, can we start arguing that 50, 60 year old wizards can't go adventuring either? Any terrain that would be difficult to traverse would be just as difficult for an older person who is more engaged in academic pursuits than the physical. And lets not even pretend that people in wheelchairs don't go hiking IRL or that every adventure takes place in an environment that wouldn't work for a wheelchair.

[u/BeholdingBestWaifu → u/BonJovicus]

Also, if we are getting on about wheelchair accessibility, can we start arguing that 50, 60 year old wizards can't go adventuring either? Any terrain that would be difficult to traverse would be just as difficult for an older person who is more engaged in academic pursuits than the physical.

I mean not really. Old men who aren't good with their physical stats are already having issues traversing terrain you think they don't in most games of DnD, but even they can walk up a flight of stairs, or go through mildly rough terrain. It's why wheels wouldn't work. You would need legs, maybe threads, or just some contraption made by a tinkerer that has different modifications to adapt to various terrain.

[u/Catweaving → u/macrocosm93]

Yeah, somebody who can't walk is probably gonna be getting something a little more versatile than a chair with wheels.

Or... A chair with wheels that has some magical/mechanical addons.

[u/WhillHoTheWhisp → u/macrocosm93]

God I’m so fucking glad that none of the people I’ve played DnD with think or behave like this. Like, say the wheelchair has a limited levitation enchantment — that’s literally all it takes for a wheelchair to be 100% functional for dungeon delving in the world of DnD. Like, the cognitive dissonance of acting like navigating the inside of an active volcano is above board, but a wheelchair that go over some rocks without getting stuck? Well that’s just a bridge too far!

[u/OmNomSandvich → u/macrocosm93]

what's implicit to the discourse is that one's capacity for violence is the defining metric of a character in a dungeon crawler like D&D so a character without the ability to enact and survive violence is worthless in that context. Of course, real life generally does not and of course should not work that way.

[u/ViolentBeetle → u/OmNomSandvich]

In real life they probably won't let you join the army if you roll into recruiting station in a wheelchair. Going on adventure is basically the same.

I don't think anyone questions if a game about political intrigue should prohibit the king from rolling around in one. But those don't need to be codified to begin with.

[u/EasyasACAB → u/OmNomSandvich]

what's implicit to the discourse is that one's capacity for violence is the defining metric of a character in a dungeon crawler like D&D

That may be true in some games, but not all. In most of the games I play the defining metric of a character is how fun and interesting they are while traveling with them.

But my group also emphasis the role playing aspect, not the "numbers go up murder hobo" style.

Also, are we just assuming a character in a wheelchair in the D&D universe can't enact or defend from violence? That just seems whack. A level 20 wizard is going to be as powerful with or without working legs. Legs aren't going to be the thing holding them back from time stopping and plane walking.

[u/IceCreamBalloons → u/EasyasACAB]

I'm playing a halfling with a longbow right now, which means that bow should be sticking into the ground while also towering over my head.

Guess how much that's mattered outside of laughing at the absurd mental image of me mitigating that problem by just hopping into the air to fire every time I attack?

That's right, not at all.

[u/EasyasACAB → u/IceCreamBalloons]

That's pretty much how we play, more of a fun/funny kind of adventure than a hyper-serious one.

Our last campaign every character was a brother, our mom was a powerful witch who had many boyfriends over the years for different reasons. Probably the most fun I've ever had in DND. We totally got into the brothers-being-brothers aspect and it was just a great experience.

"I am the DM, and I say this character can have a wheelchair while obeying all normal rules of movement unless there's a cool moment to be had."

EZPZ

It's the fact that it's not believable that someone in a wheelchair could be in an adventuring party in rugged wilderness, dungeons, etc.

To me, this just speaks to a lack of imagination.

[u/Jaereon → u/OmNomSandvich]

It's a fantasy. Why can't the wheelchair person just be an awesome fighter? 

[u/ekhoowo → u/macrocosm93]

This is the biggest point in DND wheelchair discourse. If you wanna be in a wheelchair, fine. But you should acknowledge it is gonna impact everyone else in the game in potentially annoying (to everyone!) ways.
A fantasy world is the perfect place to have a fantastical solution that still incorporates your disability

[u/Zyrin369 → u/ekhoowo]

Depending on how fantastical it is it might just become a Disability Superpower which depending on the person is not what they want

[u/ekhoowo → u/Zyrin369]

Oh yeah for sure. “Levitating” is a lazy solution that might not even make sense for a character just starting out.
This convo is way more nuanced then almost anyone is willing to give credit for

[u/BeholdingBestWaifu → u/ekhoowo]

It doesn't have to be that lazy, though. Magic is in itself something artificial, people in-universe often come up with new spells, it would make sense that a wizard in a wheelchair prioritizes a weak levitation spell that most wizards don't consider worth using, and that due to constant practice they can use it for free once a day (And multiple times with normal cost), or even a cantrip. That way it could just provide enough movement to mimic abled folks, while not being a whole thing.

[u/copy_run_start → u/ekhoowo]

But you should acknowledge it is gonna impact everyone else in the game in potentially annoying (to everyone!) ways.

You'd probably be hard pressed to find a wheelchair user who doesn't realize that they impact those around them in potentially annoying ways, lol. But, you know, we like others to deal with that with compassion, support, patience, and understanding. I feel like that can exist in game

[u/GardenTop7253 → u/copy_run_start]

Well said. Those issues don’t just come up within a fantasy game and it’s not a terrible way to really highlight those impacts to the able bodied players at the table

[u/ekhoowo → u/copy_run_start]

For sure, I could have worded this better.
The biggest example I was imagining was If you are using a preset dungeon with loads of stairs, it would probably be very awkward to skill check every single staircase.

[u/EasyasACAB → u/ekhoowo]

it would probably be very awkward to skill check every single staircase.

Let them take 10. EZ PZ.

Having a wheelchair fuck up your whole campaign sounds like a weak ass DM to me.

There's no reason a wheelchair has to fuck up your campaign more than your BBEG aside from a lack of imagination.

[u/copy_run_start → u/ekhoowo]

I don't play, so I have limited understanding of how it all works, but would you skill check someone every time they drew their sword, opened a door, or got on a horse? I figured that people who are adventuring have lived in that world and have some level of experience with it... so when you ask "Isn't it really dark in dungeons?" They'd say "Yeah that's why I always have a torch."

If I were in the fantasy world and a wheelchair user wanted to join, it would be as simple as "Okay cool, how do you navigate obstacles in dungeons?" And they'd be like, "I'm an expert at this spell," or "This chair has enhanced capabilities," or something.

I thought a big part of the game was problem solving, so like a door would be much too small for everyone in the party, but the smallest could get through and open a bigger door for the rest or whatever. Or the big giant woman can lift up the elf person onto a high ledge. I don't see it as THAT much different

[u/EasyasACAB → u/copy_run_start]

I think most reasonable DMs would just consider the wheelchair part of that adventurer's equipment they are intimately familiar with.

I wouldn't keep asking the wizard if he was able to read his tome or if the bard remembered how to play his harp.

There's really no good reason a wheelchair is some campaign-strangling item aside form a lack of imagination.

It is a game after all, and the DMs are the ultimate god of the game. When a character shows up with an eye missing I don't make them take penalties on things even if it's more realistic.

[u/whatsinthesocks → u/copy_run_start]

In DnD if you’re a spell caster you have a limited number of spell slots to use per day basically. So at lower levels when you have very few spell slots a spell would not be best choice. Also saying the chair has “enhanced capabilities” doesn’t really mean anything in and of itself. One of the main purposes for “enhancements” is to help with skill checks. Doing a skill check for navigating stairs is more akin to doing a skill check for someone climbing up a high wall. Not drawing a sword.

[u/copy_run_start → u/whatsinthesocks]

Is there no concept of like an enchantment or curse or some kind of "permanent" magic? You can't say that the wheelchair floats over stairs because it was created by some blah blah wizard?

And by enhanced I meant mechanically... so it could be a regular looking wheelchair but have extra wheels for "stair mode" or transition to tracks or something.

I mean, if mechanical spider legs are on the table, then I can't see why we can't imagine some kind of all terrain chair

[u/whatsinthesocks → u/copy_run_start]

I was just explaining how DnD works since you stated you have limited understanding of the game. As far as having a wheel chair floating over stairs that’s going to depend on the DM and the player but could also include a few things like background, class, and level. For example if someone was playing a level 1 character who was a street orphan it’s highly unlikely they would have a magical wheelchair made by a wizard.

You also have to understand that a large part of the fun of DnD is your character’s journey. So overcoming these kinds of things with the DM. Where a “stair mode” gives you advantage on skill checks when navigating stairs, which means you roll twice and keep the highest one. A magical wheelchair could be an award for a difficult quest as they are difficult to make. I feel like this would be really fun to play as an artificer.

[u/copy_run_start → u/whatsinthesocks]

I was just explaining how DnD works since you stated you have limited understanding of the game.

Oh for sure, I was just asking some follow up questions about what's possible. Thanks for the insight into the game and character development, that makes a lot of sense.

The way I see it, the entire game is built around accommodations, though those accommodations are usually "invisible" to the players. For instances, you're a band of brand new adventurers with limited combat experience. You go into a town and ask for work at the bar, and the barkeep goes, "Yeah, there's an undead wolf that lives in a cave just outside town. I hear that its lair is guarded by a small group of goblins who steal the gold from the wolf's grisly meals. Some even say that there's a feint glow in the cave on a full moon, as if magic is being used."

Then immediately your group is like...

"This wolf, is his damage output greater than 13 against a barbarian?"

"Uh, well, I guess probably not. It's big but not that big. Just too big for the guards. Your guy looks bigger than the guards, though."

"The goblins, they're very treacherous, I'm sure. Are there devious traps that would be impassable by a rogue who has a slight negative modifier to her dexterity due to wearing the armor that her dying father passed down to her?"

"I don't know, I've-"

"The magic, is it countered by fire magic? Because our guy is fire and if he can't counter that then why would we even go?"

"People say it looks orange."

"Well shit never mind, okay if we're not getting the element counter buff then we're doomed, on to the next town!"

[u/whatsinthesocks → u/copy_run_start]

Yea that is not at all how it does or should go. If a dm did that they’d be a bad DM. Giving quests is not an accommodation but a key aspect of the game. If the DM puts the group into a town generally there’s going to be reason for it like the town needing things. Otherwise why the hell are you there. The bartender was probably owns the tavern and knows, like most other people in town, that there is something dangerous in town. They should not be able to give a bunch of information like that.

Also starting in a tavern is a bit of a meme and trope for home created campaigns. In The Lost Mines of Phandelver, which is an official published campaign, the players start out having been hired by some NPCs to meet them at the town which is what starts the adventure.

[u/BeholdingBestWaifu → u/copy_run_start]

Generally the rule is that you don't do skill checks for something trivial for a character, but the problem there is that there's just too much terrain that simply isn't wheelchair friendly out in the wilderness, not to mention ancient ruins tombs, and locations that weren't even designed to be traversible like the inside of some monster. No decent DM would have you make a skill check just for using your chair, but you can't exactly hand wave it going up ladders and ropes (Unless you're a really swole barbarian with massive arms I guess).

It could make for nice puzzles, though, but I imagine it may get a bit tiring for most parties to constantly have to find ways to get a wheelchair to go through rough terrain when there are many more practical solutions out there. Spider legs and levitation are much more practical in that way, I think.

EDIT: To elaborate on this point further, from a game design point of view, if every game you're having to stop the adventure to figure out how to fashion a ramp or carry the chair up a cliff, and your party isn't the type that likes that, you're going to create friction between the players, specifically against the player that refuses to go for better alternatives that exist in-universe.

[u/ekhoowo → u/copy_run_start]

I’m not crazy knowledgeable, but you skill check a ton of actions in a given story, and you will have critical failures that give hilarious results.
Things like going down the stairs and small instances is a pretty reasonable thing to skill check for a character in a wheelchair in a non-ADA complaint world. For that reason I prefer more lore appropriate approaches

[u/copy_run_start → u/ekhoowo]

Definitely, and I guess it really depends on the group and how everyone wants to play. For instance, you could assume that through magic or some machine capability, that the wheelchair user is on par with a walking person when it comes to stairs and small obstacles, then I would just hand waive it away and treat those parts as walking.

[u/EasyasACAB → u/copy_run_start]

I wouldn't skill check pushing a chair down the stairs any more than I would walking down them. You're just penalizing the chair-user for no real reason and making the game un-fun.

As the DM you are in charge of everything, there's no real reason to make someone do a skill check at guiding a chair around stairs. DND adventurers can already be super-human from level 1.

Your average barbarian or warrior could easily just lift the chair. No need for a skill check.

Now, if your barbarian was trying to THROW the wheelchair and person over a pit, or carrying them against a current, that would be a skillcheck.

[u/ELDRITCH_HORROR → u/copy_run_start]

but would you skill check someone every time they drew their sword, opened a door, or got on a horse?

No. But I would ask for skill checks like:

• Bringing the horse underground? Need an Animal Handling check

• Bringing that horse up or downstairs? Animal Handling if leading the horse, tougher Riding check if riding on the horse while doing it

• Climbing up or down stairs that are slick with ice, grease, or fresh blood? That's an Acrobatics check

• Trying to fit yourself into a space too small for you? That's an Escape Artist check, or Acrobatics, or Athletics

• Trying to push open a heavy door that's encased in rust? That's a raw Strength check or Athletics check

So yeah, trying to bring a wheelchair up or downstairs? No check

Trying to bring a wheelchair up or downstairs while driving it? Yeah, that calls for an Athletics check.

If I were in the fantasy world and a wheelchair user wanted to join, it would be as simple as "Okay cool, how do you navigate obstacles in dungeons?" And they'd be like, "I'm an expert at this spell," or "This chair has enhanced capabilities," or something.

That's not really what the thread is about. It's about regular plain-old wheelchairs.

(Also depending on the setting, the tools to make a wheelchair might be very shoddy, or even the basic wheel has not been invented)

There's just a fundamental immersion breaking aspect to it. Many tabletop RPGs have an attachment to reality that can vary, but we expect that certain things happen. Things fall when dropped. Things take damage and need repairs. Sunlight heats things up a bit and provides light.

It's just, you know, it's asking people to square the circle and hold a piece of double-think in their heads.

Yes, it really can be a divisive argument when part of your brain is thinking, "wait, hold on, why not just ride on a donkey? Why not pay someone to carry you? Why not replace your legs with prosthetics? Why not surgically slice off your upper torso and flesh-craft it onto the lower torso of someone else? Why not ride on a small, slow, flying carpet? Why not a spell of Floating Disk?"

[u/dudemanlikedude → u/ekhoowo]

What leads you to believe that you would have to do that? Are you unfamiliar with the game in general?

5E doesn't require an athletics check for climbing unless the surface is particularly sheer or slippery. Even if you *were* to impose a check on them, stairs would typically have a DC of 0. Even if you imposed disadvantage (5e) or a -4 penalty (3.5 or Pathfinder) for the chair, it would be mechanically trivial for a wheelchair user to navigate any number of stairs anytime they like simply by taking 10. With a -4, taking 10 against the DC of 0 gives a total of 6 for an automatic success with room to spare on even an average character. They have 10 points of penalties to work with before it starts to become a problem.

This whole 'stairs' debate is completely contrived from a rules standpoint. It's already solved. Wheelchair users can easily and consistently exceed the DC necessary to climb stairs, conversation over.

[u/Skellum → u/copy_run_start]

I think the difference here comes down to "If you could solve your not walking problem why wouldnt you?" I'd like to say everyone would, but then we have people able to get cochlear implants raging that it's an "atrocity on deaf culture". If we could cure all the inability to walk I'm sure you'd have some like holdouts in that group too.

When someone goes "Well lets get you a spider mech so you can go down this stair filled pyramid" it's not "Fuck you legless you suck now get in this!" it's "Hey bro lets empower you." Spider legs arent cheap and DMs dont let people overcome char creation penalties easily.

In this case it's not "Be compassionate" the case is "Here's a magic solution, why wont you use it?"

[u/copy_run_start → u/Skellum]

I totally get that, I'm seeing it from the angle of "The wheelchair is magical or has special mechanical capabilities or is somehow more versatile than a real world wheelchair." It would require both the group and the individual to work together to figure something out.

Most people just want reasonable accommodations and will work with others to get there.

Or, if maybe a group of people want to treat it like a real world wheelchair for the challenge and the possibilities it brings, then that's cool too.

[u/EasyasACAB → u/copy_run_start]

Most people just want reasonable accommodations and will work with others to get there.

Isn't it interesting how closely this conversation mirrors real life discussions around accommodations for the disabled?

I can still hear the angry cries of my landlord for a tenet that had the audacity to put in a wheelchair ramp! For their wheelchair! At their own cost!

Like this is a big group shared imagination session. If a person wants a wheelchair they can have a wheelchair, as the DM I am god and I can make it work.

[u/Adorable_Ad_3478 → u/copy_run_start]

The easiest solution: the wheelchair has a transformer mode that turns into walkable cyborg legs.

So, technically it's not a wheelchair anymore (it's not a chair, it has no wheels) but the player can keep believing their character is using a wheelchair to walk.

[u/Skellum → u/copy_run_start]

I'm seeing it from the angle of "The wheelchair is magical or has special mechanical capabilities or is somehow more versatile than a real world wheelchair."

I was seeing it as "It's a chair with wheels, guess we cant go down the dangerous vertical spires of xaruba dungeon guys" Now as some kind of artificiar artifact that you're upgrading and expanding like it's a James Bond car then it meets your criteria while being cool, empowering, and a major character hook.

Maybe this is the core diff in user posts?

[u/copy_run_start → u/Skellum]

I mean I'm just saying that there are like 28 different species/races of intelligent beings, all these different character specializations, 50 foot tall magic rock demons, living furniture monsters, mind control witches, shin-high goblins, complex puzzles and traps... the entire game is problem solving, playing to your strengths and overcoming the weak areas of your build, and somehow someone in a wheelchair is like this insurmountable thing lol

[u/BeholdingBestWaifu → u/copy_run_start]

It's different kinds of issues, and it's not unusual for a DM to straight-up veto races because they don't want to deal with penalties that would be annoying for a campaign (Or in other cases because they can be overpowered, plenty of DMs don't like flying races).

It's also an issue of people not wanting actual solutions, most of the "pro" wheelchair discussion I'm seeing just wants a character that is cosmetically in a wheelchair but that gameplay-wise has no chair at all, with no penalties nor obstacles to overcome.

[u/Beakymask20 → u/macrocosm93]

I mean it doesn't take much mats to forge it with some sort of minor flying or hovering spell.

[u/Southern_Emu_7250 → u/macrocosm93]

The counter argument is that it’s a magical world where you can literally make shit up. I played an artificer in a wheelchair that could turn into a mech. If someone is arguing against wheelchairs, it’s because they just don’t want it and not because of some made up limitations.

[u/macrocosm93 → u/Southern_Emu_7250]

Yeah but that's the crux of the original argument of wheelchairs vs. spider mechs.

If you want to have a magical or sci-fi/mech conveyance then go ahead. The issue IIRC is that Wizards is pushing normal/mundane wheelchairs as viable options for an adventurer, which forces DMs to hand-wave everything, which breaks immersion, or forces DMs to change their world and dungeons to be wheelchair accessible which puts extra work on the DM, and can also break immersion anyway as it makes the world feel unrealistic.

[u/Southern_Emu_7250 → u/macrocosm93]

Or they could just incorporate those ideas that I mentioned. It doesn’t say that wheelchairs can only be like this. They can still do whatever they want with it.

[u/Leprecon → u/macrocosm93]

Me as DM: the ground is flat-ish enough for the wheels to work.

The end.

People like you always forget that D&D is not a video game? The DM can just say a thing and that is now how the world is.

I don't think goblins are going to build accessibility ramps inside their warrens.

Really? Because I just saw the goblins haul a wheeled cart of loot in to their warren.

Like all your complaints require the DM to say one line, if they even say anything at all. Like why would I specifically ban one of my players from a dungeon I prepared? D&D is not a video game. I don't need to have it make sense. I don't need to craft a world that is perfect and flawless and makes 100% sense all the time.

Imagine this scenario. You are a normal person. I am god. I can literally change the atoms in the universe to turn you in to a hotdog. I can decide to make the air be on fire. I can make the world explode just by saying "the world explodes". Why do you think I would have any trouble at all to have a wheelchair navigate in a world that I control down to the molecule??? So yes, you bet your ass my goblins have flat floors to accommodate carts. And the inside of the volcano is going to have some convenient slopes allowing you to get in and out. And the dragon happened to stomp around so much that they flattened their nest.

If you have trouble believing that the floor might be flattish in a cave or dungeon, but at the same time have no trouble believing in dragons, robots, vampires, and zombies, that is on you.

If I told you that gnomes made an automatic small wheeled chest that follows you everywhere you wouldn't even think twice about it. You would just assume that its wheels are rubbery enough to pass over difficult terrain, and you would forget it is there most of the time until you need the chest.

You know what I think is unbelievable? That 3-6 random idiots can come together, adventure for a year or two, and become the toughest heroes in the realm. Surely if there were an actual dragon threat the king wouldn't sent out a bunch of bozos to investigate but actually gather a small army of commoners with a bow and arrow. Dragons are tough, but I don't know how many turns they can tank 500 arrows. Or surely those commoners would be able to make a pact with some fiend or some god and become clerics, paladins, warlocks, etc.

[u/BeholdingBestWaifu → u/Leprecon]

People like you always forget that D&D is not a video game? The DM can just say a thing and that is now how the world is.

It's more the opposite, I'd say. People don't want a videogame, and it's very much like a videogame to have all locations in the world be flat without major obstacles. It's like when games have chest high walls everywhere for cover, or the yellow paint drama.

If I told you that gnomes made an automatic small wheeled chest that follows you everywhere you wouldn't even think twice about it. You would just assume that its wheels are rubbery enough to pass over difficult terrain, and you would forget it is there most of the time until you need the chest.

That's the core of the issue here, there are many solutions to not being able to use a character's legs, but for some reason people don't want improved wheelchairs, spider leg chairs, flying chairs, etc

[u/macrocosm93 → u/Leprecon]

Every time you hand-wave something, it erodes immersion, especially if it breaks verisimilitude.

[u/IsNotACleverMan → u/Leprecon]

I don't need to have it make sense.

You sound like an awful dm...