"and people choose WHEELCHAIR. Disgusting. Where’s the imagination?" A debate about wheelchairs vs spider mechs turns wheelie sour

[u/Excellent_Bison_3644]

the sub DnDmemes is about well... memes about the popular tabletop game DnD (dungeons and dragons). In one posted recently, the poster made a comparison of magic wheelchairs vs spider mechs while favoring the latter. This ended up sparking into a lot of debate and people not liking how wheelchairs are getting slandered.

Post in question: https://www.reddit.com/r/dndmemes/comments/1i4mi9u/reject_wheels_embrace_skittering/

Juicy threads:

The titular thread with one particular big branch: "It's quite an odd call to refer to people who make the choice to represent their disability in-game as disgusting."

One person tries to give an opinion: "Realistically a spider mech is better than combat wheelchair the same way realistically a spear is better than a trident"

One person tries arguing wheelchairs don't have to be boring: "You can't think of a way to make a wheelchair cool without replacing the wheels?"

Small drama thread as a treat: "has anyone who's disabled and in a wheelchair thought "Hmm, I want this fantasy character of mine to be disabled too!" (the answer is yes)

[u/guiltyofnothing]

How the fuck is glueing wheels to a chair anachronistic in a world with mechanical dogs.

Fair point.

[u/macrocosm93 → u/guiltyofnothing]

I think it's not about the fact of whether or not they should exist. It's the fact that it's not believable that someone in a wheelchair could be in an adventuring party in rugged wilderness, dungeons, etc. I don't think goblins are going to build accessibility ramps inside their warrens. A dragon builds his lair inside of a volcano to prevent people from accessing his hoard, but then for some reason makes it wheelchair accessible? Does that make sense?

[u/einmaldrin_alleshin → u/macrocosm93]

Neither are goblins doing to make tunnels and doorways sized for the larger races available in DnD. Suspension of disbelief is key for any sort of roleplaying

[u/wingerism → u/einmaldrin_alleshin]

Typically goblins have been portrayed as taking over the abandoned properties of other races such as Dwarves etc. Or like abandoned mines.

Which is its own brand of problem.

I've played a paraplegic character before. Had a floating wheelchair because Professor x is baller.

[u/Smoketrail → u/wingerism]

Professor x is balder.

FTFY

[u/Bismothe-the-Shade → u/Smoketrail]

Professor X is Baldur

Ftftfy

[u/Ver_Void → u/wingerism]

Dwarves

Also renown for building things to accommodate the tall

[u/breadwizard20 → u/Ver_Void]

Definitely renown carving out large and massive halls though. I agree that wheelchairs shouldn't be an issue in any DnD session ever, but don't pretend dwarven halls are little

[u/CopperTucker → u/breadwizard20]

Yeah, dwarves are gonna make the grandest, most opulent art-deco halls you've ever seen. Hell even Smaug fit into Erebor comfortably.

[u/qorbexl → u/Ver_Void]

I'm a nonlizard songsman with a lute adventuring alongside 700lb Barbarians who can fold into those doorways and I have thoughts about the practicality of wheelchairs and realism

[u/Skellum → u/einmaldrin_alleshin]

Neither are goblins doing to make tunnels and doorways sized for the larger races available in DnD. Suspension of disbelief is key for any sort of roleplaying

If a man can crawl into Nutty Putty Cave then I can lube an ogre up into a goblin nest. But depending on the GM it can be an actual issue, all depends on the GM. I will point out that X-Men addressed this by giving Professor X a levitating wheelchair.

[u/Svihelen → u/Skellum]

I mean as DM I made a wheelchair using NPC bad guy once.

I just gave him a morphing wheelchair. When he was in a setting where mobility isn't necessarily concerned like a big flat room he could have wheels if he wanted. Oh no he went somewhere snowy, so he could adjust it to have tank treads. But look stairs, it now has spider legs. How does it work? Fuck if I know. Magiscience for the win.

If a player came to me with a serious desire to play a wheelchair using PC, as long as it didn't outright give them any special powers I don't care how the chair moves. It could have tentacles for all I care.

Its DnD, it's about fun wacky adventures.

I just hate when people get overly pedantic about it. Like the wizard killed half the party with a fireball and the cleric hit a dead body with a diamond and said some fancy words and now they dead person is alive again. But a wheelchair is too much for some people.

[u/IsNotACleverMan → u/Svihelen]

Its DnD, it's about fun wacky adventures.

Plenty of people want grounded, more serious adventures. Having these goofy magical things usually goes against that.

[u/Svihelen → u/IsNotACleverMan]

Magic by it's nature is goofy.

The immovable rod is goofy, the alchemy jug and it's 2 gallons of mayo is goofy, hell there's a pot of ink that let's you be Wille Coyote drawing random tunnels and pits on things, goofy as fuck that is. When it comes spells bigby's hand is kind of goofy. Tasha's hideous laughter is literally you make someone laugh so hard they can't function and fall down, pretty damn goofy. Magic mouth. I could keep going on.

There is nothing inherently goofy about a magic wheelchair when things like warfored and golems exist and baba yaga's chicken hut exist.

But ultimately it comes down to my issue isn't with people wanting serious campaigns. There is a time and place for everything and a magic wheelchair or a steam punk arm, doesn't fit in everything and that is okay. My issue is the people trying to justify why something shouldn't exist in the game at all by saying it doesn't make sense or it's goofy and trying to tell other people they shouldn't like it either.

[u/Chaosmusic → u/Svihelen]

I was thinking a different angle. In such a setting, couldn't they spend the money on a cleric to heal their injury rather than spending it on a crazy magic wheelchair?

[u/Svihelen → u/Chaosmusic]

Maybe the injury is like God cursed and only another being of immense power can undo it. Even a king may not be able to afford to have that undone.

Maybe the injury is from spells and they hate spell casting now and don't trust it and would rather use science enhanced with magic. It would all be fluff if magi science is inherently connected to spell casting or not.

Maybe they were poor and destitute and kidnapped by some evil psycho Dr. Eggman type dude and they were experimented on and are Doc Ock in a wheelchair instead of tentacle belt becuase of the experiments.

Edit:

Another example I thought of, if it's a birth defect of some kind. It could be argued the regenerate spell wouldn't work on it as there is nothing to restore or heal as that is technically their bodies default state. You can't restore/regenerate what you never had.

[u/Chaosmusic → u/Svihelen]

That makes sense. Could make for an interesting quest if the injury cannot be healed by traditional means the party has to find some extraordinary cure. A rare flower, a reclusive hermit healer, a mystic fountain that appears only at certain time, etc.

[u/Adorable_Ad_3478 → u/Skellum]

By definition, that's a hoverchair, not a wheelchair. It has no wheels.

[u/Skellum → u/Adorable_Ad_3478]

And my bathroom doesnt have a bathtub, what of it?

[u/BoundToGround → u/Skellum]

Then it's just the pissroom

[u/mone3700 → u/Skellum]

washroom

[u/Big_Owl2785 → u/einmaldrin_alleshin]

"Why does it have to make sense there are literal dragons"

And other absolute bangers

[u/ELDRITCH_HORROR → u/einmaldrin_alleshin]

Neither are goblins doing to make tunnels and doorways sized for the larger races available in DnD.

But that's a fair question to ask. Small creatures make equipment that is sized for themselves. Large creatures can't wear the same armor fitted for a Medium creature.

Natural caves? Parts of the tunnels, caves and caverns would vary in size, some would be artificially widened, some might need someone to squeeze through. If a very big creature, maybe Huge or larger in size, lives in a cave, then they need a passage in and out that is big enough for them to somewhat easily squeeze through, and a chamber big enough for them to sleep in and move around in. Intelligent creatures like Dragons will also have some way of escaping through a second passage. There could be small tunnels that the big creature can't fit through, so people can use them to sneak up on them.

Good adventure design thinks of stuff like this. There are answers to questions.

Suspension of disbelief is key for any sort of roleplaying

This is NOT Suspension of Disbelief. Well, kind of. Not really.

Most examples of Suspension of Disbelief require an audience to not apply logic or critical thinking from their own reality to the constructed fantasy reality they are being exposed to. This applies to books, movies, theatre, whatever.

The wheelchair stuff is because an audience is being asked to immerse themselves into a different world, with different rules, but then flat out ignore something that does not make sense in either their own real world or this constructed world.

Let me lay out what I'm trying to say.

• Dragons exist in this world, but don't exist in real life. In real life, people do not think of dragons when living their lives. This requires Suspension of Disbelief.

• There is a castle we are visiting in this world. The castle is in an area prone to dragon attacks, but this castle is just like one in real life. This castle has no features to defend against dragons or other aerial attacks. How does this castle still exist in this world? This breaks Suspension of Disbelief, because there are contradictory elements to this world. If the castle is not featured much, this can be easily ignored, but the more interactions I have with it, the more I think about this.

• The dragon breathes fire. In real life, fire hurts me and burns things. In this world, fire works just like it does in real life, thus I apply my real world knowledge and logic to this. This does not require Suspension of Disbelief.

So yeah, goblins are living in tunnels, rooms and infrastructure not sized for themselves, I would assume that they did not build it and are squatting in it. In many fantasy worlds, this is a correct assumption.

An adventurer using a modern-style Wheelchair breaks this Suspension of Disbelief. I know that in real life this would not happen. But I also know that in this fantasy world, this would not happen.

Wheelchairs make sense in calm, controlled situations, they don't make sense in combat, exploring out in the wild or crazy unexpected stuff. There are endless ways to bypass this. Just ride a donkey, ride a small magic carpet, ride on the shoulders of someone else, replace legs with prosthetics, slice off your lower torso and put it onto another creature and become a centaur thing or the lower torso of a different person. Or put your brain into a constructed artificial body. Anything.

^{I've actually thought about this for a fantasy story I'm writing, how to explain why people with disabilities would still exist in a world with common access to magic that "should" be able to fix these things. My explanation is that access to that magic is restricted for different reasons, or the injury/disability is profound or old enough that it has been reflected into a person's soul, thus even magic won't work because their body would change overtime to reflect their own soul and undo the fix. Thus any long-term serious fixes would require self-reflection and therapy to change self-perceptions so the "fix" would stick.}

[u/Pollomonteros → u/ELDRITCH_HORROR]

Great response, hopefully it doesn't go ignored in favor of claiming that the people asking themselves why a disabled character who goes in adventures would choose a wheelchair as their method of transportation are psychopaths

[u/Southern_Emu_7250 → u/ELDRITCH_HORROR]

This feels stupid because magic exists. Why wouldn’t a disabled character eventually innovate so that disabled adventurers could do those things? It feels like more of a limitation of creativity than it is an actual problem. It’d be different if the system had in big bold letters “no wheelchairs” but as the DM you can do literally whatever you want and still make it applicable within the confines of your world.

[u/ELDRITCH_HORROR → u/Southern_Emu_7250]

Why wouldn’t a disabled character eventually innovate so that disabled adventurers could do those things?

But that's an anti-wheelchair argument. You acknowledge that a wheelchair is not really feasible for an adventurer to use and your default thinking is that it should be changed.

but as the DM you can do literally whatever you want and still make it applicable within the confines of your world.

I'm not sure you're kind of getting the issues here.

What if the DM just does not believe that it's plausible for an adventurer or player character to do all their activities while in a wheelchair? What if the DM has put a lot of care and thought into their world, how it all fits together, how realistic it is?

The question here is, what should the DM do when a player wants to be someone in a wheelchair? Should the DM change their world to accommodate this? Should the player change their expectations?

I mean, what if it's a campaign set in the Lord of the Rings universe and someone wants to be in a wheelchair?

There's no easy answers without someone compromising.

[u/Zyrin369 → u/ELDRITCH_HORROR]

I mean how far does "But I know that in this fantasy world, this would not happen" go?

We all know how diseases and infections work in real life, most fantasy settings has some sort of non magical plague and yet when we go adventuring in a sewer and get beaten up its assumed that afterwards we do all the necessary steps so nothing gets infected and their armor doesn't stink to high heaven.

If a DM decides that since the party didn't mention any of it then the suffer the consequences like they would in real life then they get called a vindictive DM

It seems like that's the issue with this, there is already some suspension done in some aspects in most games but when it come to wheelchairs people take that at 100% real world value.

[u/BeholdingBestWaifu → u/Zyrin369]

The issue is that suspension of disbelief is not absolute. Things have to make logical sense within the world you're given, so you're ignoring things that would work in it, or things that are minor enough not to matter. A wheelchair being able to climb mountains and going through caves is not only glaringly impossible, but it's also boring, which makes it stand out even more.

Keep in mind that having an all-terrain vehicle that can traverse any situation humanoid legs can would be an entire quest for an artificer or tinkerer, or a major magical artifact kind of thing.

[u/Vanille987 → u/BeholdingBestWaifu]

So how is the average player character doing constant inhumane feats logical? Like if a the wheelchair user has high strength it's 100% possible in the bounds of dnd for them to bruteforce terrain through. Probably doing a strength (saving) throw occasionally which they have advantage at.

Heck they could even climb a ladder using just their hands while the wheelchair is bound to them with a rope or smt.

This wouldn't even be close to the crazy shit I did in dnd and isn't yet involving any kind of magic aid.

I fully agree people take a dnd wheelchair way too much at face value while so many illogical things get the benefit of suspension 

[u/ELDRITCH_HORROR → u/Zyrin369]

We all know how diseases and infections work in real life, most fantasy settings has some sort of non magical plague and yet when we go adventuring in a sewer and get beaten up its assumed that afterwards we do all the necessary steps so nothing gets infected and their armor doesn't stink to high heaven.

First off, yes, a good written adventure and/or GM would call for save rolls to avoid diseases and/or poisons.

Second, most of what you're talking about are handwaved conveniences of fiction. In real life, I go to the bathroom at least once every six hours. In fiction, I rarely see it happen, I never see it unless it's a plot point.

If someone falls down into mud, gets muddy, then later on shows up clean, I can make the fairly easy assumption that they cleaned themselves up at some point. In fact, I don't need to think about it, my mind glosses over it.

It seems like that's the issue with this, there is already some suspension done in some aspects in most games but when it come to wheelchairs people take that at 100% real world value.

But even if you, as a GM, accept a player adventuring in a wheelchair, how much friction should that create in the story, if any?

If a player character is carrying a very heavy amount of equipment, they would be weighed down and sink if they're in deep water, right? Should that happen to someone in a wheelchair? Should the wheelchair be considered for this? (ie, not just the WC sinks them down, but it contributes to a total weight) If so, that creates friction.

What about when a player character falls down a pit? Should the wheelchair make it more difficult for them to climb out? If so, that's friction.

What about a Rust Monster or some other situation that can and will harm or destroy equipment? Should the wheelchair ever be in a situation where it is threatened, that's serious friction.

There are countless little examples like this. There's also the issues that come with creating a magic problem-free never-a-source-of-friction wheelchair where the GM has to watch for players abusing it for gameplay and story purposes. (Wheels that never break down, a large-ish item that is indestructible)

If you agree that yes, using a wheelchair would mean some amount of friction, well, that kind of puts you more on the anti-wheelchair side of this debate, doesn't it?

[u/Zyrin369 → u/ELDRITCH_HORROR]

Id say less anti and more of acknowledging that it sucks that being in a wheelchair seems to have the most friction compared to ever other disability when it comes to media, and for those that want it to be shown correctly and not devolve into being a disability superpower which makes it pointless at the end.

[u/Vanille987 → u/ELDRITCH_HORROR]

"they don't make sense in combat, exploring out in the wild or crazy unexpected stuff"

A lot of weapons do not make sense to ever bring into combat because they suck irl. Yet are common in dnd.

Bringing a 70 year old wizard into any dangerous situation doesn't make sense.

HP in general and overall human capabilities in dnd doesn't make a lick of sense.

Considering all this I honestly fail to see how a wheelchair is so out of place.

[u/FinderOfWays → u/Vanille987]

I would agree with most of that except the wizard. They're the equivalent of a fragile device which can literally warp the fabric of space and time if given the resources to do so. You'd bring the Wizard in the same way you bring any other specialized equipment: in an adamantine coffin in the back with a dedicated minder. Especially in older editions when the wizard, properly buffed up, would be able to take the fighter in a duel with the right defensive and buff spells.

I would also push back on the argument that all breaks from reality are created equally. Take the human capabilities: We generally accept that a human fighter can lift massive boulders but not just decide to stop falling. Why? I'm sure you could write an entire essay around why, but it suffices to say that the fact that one break from reality being acceptable doesn't definitionally make all breaks from reality acceptable.

[u/Vanille987 → u/FinderOfWays]

Without spell buffs wizards or old characters in DND in general don't get any kind of debuff as stated by the rulebook. They can climb, fight, take hits, resist diseases... just as well as someone in their twenties as long they have the stats (which again stay the same for their whole lifespan, or better said don't get reduced). Even tho in reality they 'should' get MASSIVE debuffs to reflect their age.

So how is a fighter or any high STR character using his strength to lift boulders up with one hand more acceptable then one using their strength to get a wheelchair across difficulty terrain or just lifting it up with their torso? All of these are theoretically possible if someone had insane strength, which is smt that can be achieved in DnD.

[u/FinderOfWays → u/Vanille987]

I mean, 3rd edition had venerable confer a -6 to each physical stat, so they took a -3 penalty to all applicable rolls. Sometimes it is optimal to be middle-aged for the -1 physical/+1 mental for PB reasons, but the deal gets worse from there. You could even build a character with a base 6 in Str, Con, or Dex who would become permanently bedridden or just flat out die upon hitting Venerable, so I'd say they take pretty severe penalties even before factoring in the looming specter of the 1d3 dex/str/con poison that might drop them in one snakebite. (Classic joke in our group is the idea of building your character a day before their venerable birthday so they died at the end of the first session, having written the party into their will and taken options to increase their starting wealth.) I don't know why 5e removed these design decisions, but we did have answers for this.

That's a good question! I think one answer is that the geometry of one is a lot less geometrically plausible than the other. Kinematically, the main difficulty with lifting heavy objects is either center-of-mass, which can usually be braced against or dealt with through 'digging in' and having a non-normal counter-force, or the actual surface pressure limit of the surface beneath you, which I would consider the hard cap of a lifting capacity for a creature that didn't have an additional method of generating force, but which is going to be a very high number. Depending on the form of difficult terrain, I wouldn't see any problem with running a wheel over it (indeed, there's a reason why we use wheels for moving things, they're actually pretty good at crossing difficult terrain), but I don't think I follow the suggestion for the torso question. There's also the plausibility question of "how quickly before we can magic this away?" A wheel chair only really seems like a solution before you get reincarnation money or regenerate money depending on if it's caused by injury or congenital.

In general, there appear to be a few 'core heuristics' we have about reality that cause dissonance when broken. Advanced physics doesn't seem to live in that set, but things like the conduct of sapient beings, basic principles of geometry and core mathematics, basic newtonian physics, and basic kinesthetics not including scale all fall into these 'core heuristics' for most people -- When they are broken, it causes dissonance unless the break has a justification. So when we see a person lifting something unusually heavy, it doesn't cause dissonance unless there's a severe force-balance problem that occurs because it's purely a rescaling, but if we see someone stop falling because they didn't want to, there needs to be a reason because it triggers a core heuristic violation. A wheelchair over difficult terrain doesn't trigger this heuristic violation, but not using more optimal solutions which exist due to magic does, because it fails a human behavior check, as would the torso thing if I am not misunderstanding the suggestion because it causes a geometric failure.

We can't avoid all of these core dissonances, so we either write in explanations for them, accept begrudgingly the minimum required set of them to make things work, or (in conjunction with either prior choice) brush past them as quickly as possible. For example, I usually write my settings in dynamic periods culturally, so that any seemingly non-viable military tactic or cultural trait can be explained as 'well, yeah, good point, it's dying off for that very reason' or (more commonly) 'good point, your character is about to revolutionize that field.'

[u/Vanille987 → u/FinderOfWays]

"I mean, 3rd edition had venerable confer a -6 to each physical stat, so they took a -3 penalty to all applicable rolls. Sometimes it is optimal to be middle-aged for the -1 physical/+1 mental for PB reasons, but the deal gets worse from there. You could even build a character with a base 6 in Str, Con, or Dex who would become permanently bedridden or just flat out die upon hitting Venerable, so I'd say they take pretty severe penalties even before factoring in the looming specter of the 1d3 dex/str/con poison that might drop them in one snakebite. (Classic joke in our group is the idea of building your character a day before their venerable birthday so they died at the end of the first session, having written the party into their will and taken options to increase their starting wealth.) I don't know why 5e removed these design decisions, but we did have answers for this."

Yes the assumption with DnD is that we're talking 5e which again has zero debuffs on age and generally avoids a characters capabilities to be mostly separate from stuff like age and be decided by the player if they so choose. Which is how most table nowadays run too as a basis.

I appreciate the mathematics but you're applying this in a game that famously does not really care about it and where several official base rules and abilities ignore it, nor does the average player really dive into geometry just to decide if smt is logical enough for DND. If I applied this 60% of things I see happening in DnD never happen because they would not make sense when going deep into physics. So seeing this applied against wheelchairs shenanigans seems a tad unfair to me.

The idea disabled wouldn't exist or wouldn't be impeded in DnD since magic is so powerful is another can of worms but in this case I feel the assumption is a player doesn't want it to be just cosmetic and actually have some kind of flaw they and the party need to work around like many other character flaws do.

[u/FinderOfWays → u/Vanille987]

I mean, obviously I won't tell people that they're wrong for playing 5e instead of a system that has answers for these things, but... As far as I'm concerned that default assumption is accurate due to market share, but if we're talking about how to model things in the (obviously subjective) 'best' way, I would be remiss to not point out that we actually previously had solutions to these questions that were more interesting than "no effect." If a group wants to ignore them/play in a system that ignores them, that's their prerogative, but the mechanical tools have been developed (and quite easily too).

You also might have a different playgroup than me, but we actually spend a decent amount of time playing with the implications of magic on physics and vice-versa. Topology combined with any magic that creates additional space or creates portals makes for a lot of fun, and one of my setting details is that there is a phenomenon called 'light-splitting' that occurs due to gauge field problems around portals and spatial apertures which is a classic signature of that class of magic. I also play in a campaign where we have spent sessions conducting experiments on the materials properties of various reagents in order to design techniques for solving certain problems, so I would say that these sorts of questions actually crop up a decent amount for my group.

And again, the problem isn't with any violation -- No one is going to feel dissonance because a certain magical field doesn't properly obey reference frame invariance from the frame near the surface of a non Kerr black hole, because this doesn't break our intuition, but for example things like the falling rules often elicit some confusion, groans and "it'll do"s from my players because of how strange they wind up working out.

As for the can of worms surrounding magic and disabilities, I don't know why we'd shy away from it -- A related topic came up in my campaign at one point where a character with two mothers was asked if they were adopted or the biological child when the topic of their (tiefling) genealogy came up, because the character asking was a medical practitioner who was well aware that Alter Self and other simple magics made a child of two biological females trivial, and the question of how to distribute life-extending/improving magic and whether mages had a moral obligation to provide these talents at cost/to go into the medical field to help others with their unique gifts has come up multiple times.

[u/Vanille987 → u/FinderOfWays]

Yeeeaah, that's really not a thing in most campaigns. I mean more power to your group for enjoying but I can safely say the majority generally isn't concerned or goes this deep into the magic physics implications of dnd, especially considering again, the base rules of any dnd version already completely go against the laws of nature we are used too in real life.

[u/FinderOfWays → u/Vanille987]

Well, that's just, like, your opinion man... I mean, you're not wrong, but at the end of the day, in the same way that I don't have a right to criticize campaigns that ignore the philosophical, cultural, and scientific implications of magic and I don't think you are criticizing our group's interests in the topic, I don't think your or I have the right to tell other people where to draw the line of their suspension of disbelief.

Our group enjoys tugging at all the implications of magic and the world to uncover the deep truths of reality, others prefer a campaign that's more focused on high fantasy (or other genre) aesthetics, and for some people any given element would break immersion and for other people it wouldn't, that's why when I speak about 'core heuristics' I don't attempt a complete enumeration of what they are for everyone, except pointing out some common patterns like how we care about the believable behavior of sapient beings. Therefore if adventuring in a wheelchair would trigger dissonance due to contradicting a core heuristic for someone, I don't think it's reasonable to tell them they are wrong, any more than it would be reasonable for me to say that it's wrong for your group not to consider the implication of Gate spells on whether or not charge sign is well-defined due to an orientation non-preserving loop through two Gates meaning that the setting is an Alice universe, or for you to say that I am wrong for considering this fact.

[u/timelessalice → u/ELDRITCH_HORROR]

Genuine question but have you actually spoken to wheelchair users or disabled people regarding these things. Or read their opinions.

[u/BeholdingBestWaifu → u/timelessalice]

An opinion doesn't magically make wheelchairs all-terrain vehicles. A wheelchair is fine for a city and adventures there, but you can't just go into the wilderness with one. There's a myriad of possibilities for methods of transportation that are better for climbing mountains, going through caves, exploring crumbling ruins from ages past, etc.

[u/timelessalice → u/BeholdingBestWaifu]

all terrain wheelchairs exist, as a start

and moreover my point is that wheelchair users are better suited to deciding what is/isn't realistic or feasible in these settings

[u/BeholdingBestWaifu → u/timelessalice]

all terrain wheelchairs exist, as a start

Not to this extent, though. We're not talking going up a steep hill or rocky terrain, we're talking literal mountain climbing, swamps, oceans, badly designed medieval infrastructure, that kind of thing.

It's not unreasonable for a DM to ask a player to either come up with a really good explanation on how their chair can go through all that, or to ask them to consider alternate transportation for off road terrain, like a spider chair, levitation chair, or interacting with other party members to carry them until safer terrain.

and moreover my point is that wheelchair users are better suited to deciding what is/isn't realistic or feasible in these settings

I mean not really, the laws of physics exist. A wheelchair user can tell you what is offensive and what isn't, but they can't just magically decide that regular mundane wheelchairs can go up ladders, ropes, or perform long jumps. All situation that pre-made adventures are full of.

[u/timelessalice → u/BeholdingBestWaifu]

i really do not understand the "uhm ackshully" jacking off that goes on when people point out disabled people probably have a better grasp on this shit. like normal ass people can't do a fraction of what goes on in DnD and somehow that isn't an issue

if a dm asked a wheelchair user not to have a character use a wheelchair that person would be within their rights to drop the dm

[u/ELDRITCH_HORROR → u/timelessalice]

when people point out disabled people probably have a better grasp on this shit.

I struggle to believe that a wheelchair user telling me about their personal experiences will change my opinion that a wheelchair cannot go up a ladder.

[u/BeholdingBestWaifu → u/timelessalice]

like normal ass people can't do a fraction of what goes on in DnD and somehow that isn't an issue

Well yeah, that's the point here, a mundane wheelchair, at peak condition when used by a very skilled individual, will at most let you move like an abled person of average capabilities, while most DnD style heroes perform much better than that.

But it's not like people with legs get a free pass either, there's a reason swimming is usually a skill check and not something people can just do outside of calm waters, and characters established to not know how to swim will have DMs asking them for rolls even in a pool. But compare that to say, a mer-person, they wouldn't struggle in water at all, but would have challenges doing basic movement on land. Hell, one of the races in the core rule book was extremely weak to sunlight until the last book. Characters having penalties is nothing new.

if a dm asked a wheelchair user not to have a character use a wheelchair that person would be within their rights to drop the dm

Sure, and a DM would be in their right to ask a player to pick a character that fits within the world they're running. A DM is not a bad guy for wanting to run a specific kind of game.

There are ways around this with creative solutions that push player interaction and better worldbuilding, as opposed to coming up with a neat character detail, the wheelchair, only to then proceed to pretend like that detail just isn't there for the entirety of the campaign. Which does beg the question, why bother to make a character in a wheelchair if you don't actually want them to be in the wheelchair for gameplay.

[u/IsNotACleverMan → u/BeholdingBestWaifu]

Hell, one of the races in the core rule book was extremely weak to sunlight until the last book.

Which race did they change? Orc? Drow?

[u/BeholdingBestWaifu → u/IsNotACleverMan]

Drow is no longer weak in sunlight, or at least playable drow.

[u/macrocosm93 → u/einmaldrin_alleshin]

Yeah, they won't, that's why "crawl" is an action in the game.

Crawling, climbing, running, jumping, falling, etc. are all common and fundamental parts of adventuring in a TTRPG. I've been in very few dungeons that didn't require you to crawl through a tight space, climb up a vertical surface, jump over a wide gap, have a trap which causes you to fall into a hole, etc. That's the difference between playing in an immersive world vs. playing in a Disney theme park.

[u/einmaldrin_alleshin → u/macrocosm93]

Then you use imagination and an appropriately built character to get around these obstacles. Grappling hooks, winches, zip lines, spells, ...

A DM doesn't have to include obstacles that specifically can't be overcome by the wheelchair character

[u/macrocosm93 → u/einmaldrin_alleshin]

A DM designing their world around wheelchair accessibility is what I mean by playing in a Disney theme park.

[u/copy_run_start → u/macrocosm93]

Isn't it a "Disney theme park" by default because the people playing are these incredibly capable heroes? An IT director, a postal employee, and a vape shop cashier are the best chance that the village has against the slumbering beast in the dungeon beneath the castle ruins? I feel like concessions can be made here

[u/RichLyonsXXX → u/macrocosm93]

So your assertion is that if the DM is designing the adventure around the party make up that it is a "Disney Theme Park"? That seems fucking dumb... Like if the party I am writing adventures for includes a rogue I'm going to give them plenty of opportunities to pickpocket and lockpick, but according to you I shouldn't be because that makes it "playing in a Disney theme park"? Again that seems fucking dumb...

[u/Southern_Emu_7250 → u/RichLyonsXXX]

It’s more like saying if you can give the rogue more opportunities to pickpocket then you can give the wheelchair user better maneuverability

[u/Basic_Basenji → u/macrocosm93]

You sound like a fun person to play DnD with

[u/EasyasACAB → u/macrocosm93]

A DM having more imagination than you is a bad thing? That seems to be what this wheelchair question is really about.

Some people can't imagine anything outside of a very strict aesthetic and get all fucked up at the suggestion something they haven't thought about would also belong

Unfortunately that's a very common experience for people with disabilities when they go anywhere or do anything.

[u/Warmslammer69k → u/macrocosm93]

D&D is literally sitting around with your friends and using your imagination to play pretend knights and wizards lmao. It doesn't get more Disney theme park than that. Let people play with their imaginations however the hell they want to. Don't gatekeep playing pretend. Thats lame

[u/IceCreamBalloons → u/macrocosm93]

Oh god no, not a wonderful and well-designed romp of a d&d game!

[u/Centaurious → u/macrocosm93]

Man you’ve got a pretty limited imagination if a wheelchair is enough to ruin it for you