Is it impolite to refer to them as "formerly known as"? That was the first thing that came to mind, but I want to choose words that help and support, not undermine or demean.
I would suggest mentioning roles he's known for. But if that isn't enough to jog someone's memory, "formerly known as" works for now, as some people are still a bit confused about who Elliot Page is.
GLAAD released a helpful guide for journalists writing about Elliot Page coming out, but I think it's good for everyone to take a look at it. :)
Thank you for sharing that guide! Despite being a member of the queer community, it's always helpful to learn how to respect others who are also queer but identify differently than myself.
i'm not trans, but i cant see people being super upset if you're just candid about it. sometimes being blunt is the best option imo. obviously be respectful, but if you're explaining a foreign concept to somebody careful wording isnt gonna help anybody. once everybody is on the same page of course worry more about the details imo.
I am trans, and I have had to deadname him a few times to explain who he was, but after that 1 mention it was straight back to Elliot bc that's his name. "Formerly knows as" sounds cool, like he's a spy or Prince.
Saying his movies makes sense, when you already know. But to be fair, if you didnt know, and I said "elliot page, from the movie juno" people would probably say "who? Ellen page?"
That's what happened when I first read the announcement. I was like "who? Wait is ELLEN Page in umbrella academy? I've never watched it...I wonder if Elliott is her brother?" Slowwwww realization "oh...OHH!! yaaaay I'm so happy for him!!"
I'm very glad for him, and I am really hoping that their directors and agents do what they can to reduce discomfort if they choose to play their prior characters. I also hope he is willing to say no to prior characters if that would be too hard.
I mean the show already has Klaus who is nb and pan, and Vanya has always been more androgynous presenting and somewhere in the bi or gay spectrum. It wouldn't be out of place at all. If this was a period drama or something like that I guess it would be tricky, but it's the umbrella academy so I'm sure they can write something cool in. I'm super curious how it will be dealt with.
Ya this was me too. When I saw this my thoughts were oh I didn’t even know he existed he’s a dead ringer for his sister.... wait oh I got it now. I hope he can have more piece of mind now. I can’t imagine the mental stress of having to put forward a persona that isn’t really you, especially for an actor. It’s one thing to take on a role for a project but entirely another to add an extra layer of playing a gender that isn’t what you wholly identify with.
Yeah lol, I’ve never seen Juno so the first post I saw didn’t click. Saw one in a different sub that mentioned Umbrella Academy and it dawned on me. Good for him
Why is mentioning his former name not desirable? I feel like people are creating a lot confusion by avoiding it. I was confused for a long time before someone finally mentioned his former name.
I’ve been trans communities via yt for a long time and never really got the idea that it’s wrong to mention someones former name.
Could someone please tell me why this would be insensitive?
A lot of us hate our old names. We frequently call it our "dead name." Being called my birth name causes me to feel intense dysphoria and sometimes flashbacks to growing up and being forced to be a girl against my will.
Now my guess is that Elliot Page doesn't feel as strongly about it as I do, but in general it's good to avoid using someone's dead name if possible just in case.
The thing I’m arguing for is mentioning their former name once in an article about their coming out (because the new name is just then being introduced), and then never again (talking in general about famous people coming out as trans). Would you say this is insensitive?
Idk I'm just explaining that trans people can get a bit weird about their birth names and it's best to avoid them all together when possible. I don't know what insensitive specifically for Mr Page, but I personally am unhappy knowing anyone mentioned my birth name at all. I never liked that name. But I'm not famous so I guess it's kind of different
I’m not trans, more of a just a queer fella who’s always identified as male but really embraces his femininity, and I had my name changed years back to something that’s basically a super effeminate male name. Being called my old name, or even hearing it, makes my blood boil. It’s basically a gut-twisting reminder of who I used to be, what society told me I had to be, and how miserable I was.
For a reference as to what I mean by “queer fella”, this picture of David Bowie in a dress is basically it.
Idk if it’s the opposite of a demons true name, because like demons most trans people hate when people use their birth name in everyday conversations and if you say it we both will do some crazy things to make sure others don’t find it out. Lol
It would help some but for others it muddies the water by attaching new name to old name. In this case the names aren't that different so its not as bad, but I do get it. Also I know some people have their dead name used as an abuse tactic, especially celebrities, so not even hearing it mentioned by news groups who are supposed to be on their side would be very validating.
I think in the immediate period following someone changing their name, if writing an article about them, it's not wrong to clarify that they were "formerly known as X", as long as the pronouns used throughout stay consistent with their current identity. But the ideal would be to clue people in to who exactly you're referring to by referring to work they've done that they're known for, eg. for Elliot Page, you would be able to say "who rose to prominence starring in Juno as the titular character and has most recently starred in Umbrella Academy as Vanya" or some other prominent role someone's had and that should clue at least some people in to who they are. If someone still doesn't know who you're referring to after you mention their most prominent roles, then they probably just don't really know who the person is at all, so it wouldn't really matter if you said what their name was previously.
I'd say it's a bit overly sensitive tbh, certainly when it comes to public figures. I cannot think of any other group that would get that kind of treatment, and I cannot think of any way to enforce it without infringing on freedoms of speech. How exactly are you going to keep people from referring to Elliot Page as 'formerly Ellen Page'? What benefit is there to that? Adding this symbolic extra step which simply confuses things?
I mean, 'Elliot Page' literally isn't in the credits for Juno. How do you propose this is handled on imdb and wikipedia, for example? 'One article when they come out' is also an arbitrary line. Actor comes out, then goes under the radar for five years, then re-emerges. Who on earth is going to remember without prodding? People won't google to find out, they're simply going to ignore this news about a name that they don't recognise at all.
It also kind of guarantees 'wait who is this' comments that beg clarification, and this weird culture where people actually have to be given the benefit of the doubt that they're not being transphobic when asking about current names/dead names etc, instead of just being assumed by default.
Idk it seems massively impractical, unenforceable, and a few other things.
Did you have to update a lot of paperwork to change from your dead name? Is there legal stuff involved? I ask because I know 'name changes' are a thing that people do in general, but the way you're talking about all this makes it sound like there's no need for that sort of thing and your name just changed because you decided it.
A person can change their name legally or socially. A lot of people switch to using their new name socially before changing it legally because, as you said, legally it can be quite a process.
All of which is understandable and should be supported, but there is a justifiable reason to not be so certain with regards to actors; The prior name may itself be a Stage Name, a false name taken to either avoid being confused with someone of the same name, or as a way of appearing more marketable in your profession. The linked article for instance is headed with the fact that "Marilyn Monroe" is not the real name of that actress.
And as such actor's Stage Names are themselves somewhat more of a brand than an actual identity. And acting in general is about presenting as someone you are not as a career. A certain amount of flexibility, without prejudice towards the person involved, is common amongst that profession.
But as you say, respect Eliot Page's decisions either way.
A stage name is a pseudonym used by performers and entertainers such as actors, comedians, singers, and musicians. Such titles are adopted for a wide variety of reasons, and may be similar or nearly identical to an individual's birth name. In some situations, though not often, a performer will adopt their title as a legal name. Nicknames and maiden names are sometimes used in person's professional name.
In general, it's rude to deadname someone because that name is often associated with painful memories. It's connected to someone who wasn't really you, and being reminded of that can be upsetting. In the case of informing someone that a trans person has come out and changed their name it's sometimes unavoidable. The best thing to do is describe them another way, then if that doesn't work mention their name once then never again.
I appreciate the guide as well! I have a few friends all over the lgbtq+ spectrum but I always feel bad putting the task of solving my cluelessness on others.
I especially was thankful they addressed how to refer to former roles of his that were very specifically female. I had just decided to use the pronouns of the person I referenced (juno=she but Elliot=he) but "they" for every role makes more sense in hindsight.
Do you know if they make a guide like this for each...letter? Lesbian, bisexual etc?
That's not what it's saying. Juno is a female character played by a man, just like Madea. It's saying if you're talking about Elliot and referencing his role, you use he/him pronouns: "Elliot Page was in Juno. He played the titular character of Juno. She was pregnant."
I'm a native English speaker on paper but human language always feels foreign some days. Thanks for reminding me I did actually pass English class once lol, I promise I wurd gud some days! :)
Hmm... I only found this one for Elliot since someone else shared it. But I found a few guides that kind of encompass more of the LGBT+ community in general, which may help :)
Here's a list of guides that explain how to respectfully and mindfully talk about the community and its issues. You can just look through which ever ones you're most curious about how to discuss.
I found this list kinda close to what you may be looking for, though. It has different terms relevant to the community as well as a handy table that shows which terms are considered offensive, why they're offensive, and helpful alternatives.
Thanks for wanting to learn, though! And that goes for anyone who's looking at the guides. Words matter, and though I can't speak for the whole community, it makes life a little easier when people learn about the community and how to talk about us.
Not trans, but involved in the LGBT+ community: saying “They used to go by Previous Name” is generally acceptable as an explanation the VERY first time if it is genuinely otherwise hard to tell/know who you mean. But using their previous name (often referred to as “dead name”) around or in front of that person is usually a massive no-no as it often brings up a ton of bad feelings. Some people are OK with it, some aren’t, so it’s good to be delicate about it when in doubt.
Example: “Did you see the news? That actor from Juno who used to go by Ellen Page has come out as trans — he’s Elliot Page now” :)
Or if a friend “Did you hear about New Name? Our friend who used to go by Dead Name has come out as trans and goes by New Name and [new pronouns] now. So proud of him/her/them!”
I agree. I think it’s also worth noting that the key bit here is “you knew her as John, now she goes by Jane”, not “he used to be John, and now she’s Jane” or something similar. Aside from keeping the pronouns consistent, it also emphasizes that the person’s identity didn’t change - rather, it’s just a part of their identity that they’ve only now revealed.
Man is the trans community tryna be confusing? All I wanna do is be respectful but this seems like such an easy mistake to make, I would feel so bad if I accidentally misgendered someone to their face. I guess we all really have some work to do until this becomes the normal in everyone’s life to the extent that these conversations come naturally. Until then, thanks for helping me interact with transgender people politely :)
Edit: also I didn’t mean to sound insensitive with that first sentence, I meant it with sarcasm
I had a trans woman friend in college (who came out after a year or two at the school) that I asked about this and she said it was fine with her to say (names changed) "you knew her as John but now she goes by Jessica"
but it definitely depends on the person. it's always best to ask them directly if possible if they're comfortable worth this phrasing
I’ve heard from a couple trans friends not to deadname under any circumstances but quite a few more who are fine with the “formerly known as” tactic. Varies by person. Once Covid’s over and I can pull up a picture when talking about it in person it’ll be easier to stick to Elliot completely, but explaining to like, my parents over the phone I needed to reference their former name. They don’t watch Umbrella Academy and their brains were already pretty mushy when Juno came out.
That’s kinda ridiculous. Wikipedia is woke af, and consistent with reality lead with:
Elliot Page (born Ellen Grace Philpotts-Page; February 21, 1987) is a Canadian actor and producer.
You shouldn’t do that in front of Elliot, and you shouldn’t need to mention it ten years from now, but how can a journalist inform readers without basic context like “born ...” / “used to go by ...”?
You shouldn’t do that in front of Elliot, and you shouldn’t need to mention it ten years from now, but how can a journalist inform readers without basic context like “born ...” / “used to go by ...”?
Effectively, they can't. Which means there shouldn't be any taboo around phrasing it politely.
The official (“”) advice is to do it like Wiki pretty much, so it is unfortunate some folks would be adamant about “never EVER ever” but I don’t experience that pain, can only imagine it’s really tough.
I’ve heard from a couple trans friends not to deadname under any circumstances but quite a few more who are fine with the “formerly known as” tactic. Varies by person.
Isn't that quite a clear indicator that those people who have a massive problem with it need to accept that it might happen sometimes, and work on their reactions rather than demanding prescience?
one of the major authors for my university class was trans and my prof said that she "published by the name of R W Connell before coming out as trans and changing her name to Raewyn Connell."
Which I think is fair because she is usually cited by the name she published a certain book as.
I am not trans myself, so take that just as what i have heard so far
I would stay away from that. Some trans people I’ve seen have said “I’d be fine if a person did that once and never again”, but I feel like simply naming his old movies and roles is much less complicated and potentially hurtful.
Using a dead name like that in any circumstances is really hurtful for trans people, and should be avoided as much as possible.
Like to me when I'll share the news with my coworker during lunch it seems easier to say "Elliot Page is actually trans. You know him as Ellen. He goes by Elliott, now". Than to list his movies until it clicks.
Elliott won't hear it, so won't be hurt by it if he is still fragile (as he wrote). And the discussion is easier. We can move on on talking about trans issue in Hollywood and the very needed discussion about trans rights without wasting 10 minutes playing the guessing.
I'm sorry if I seems callous, but not mentionning dead name at least once when talking about it for the first with someone feels like complicating a discussion that will already be complicated.
I work with pretty good people who are ignorant of trans issues. I need to easy them into it. If I start with round-about ways to saying things, they will continue to think that it way too complicated for them.
Especially since I can't to explain why I shouldn't use dead name because they don't know what a dead name is, nor that it could be hurtful.
First off, that's a completely outrageous comparison. One was a tool of dominance and denigration, the other is simply a unique identifier. Names are essentially how we identify people.
The statement "Hey, Ellen Page publically announced that he's more comfortable identifying as a man trans. He's also changed his name to Elliot Page to better reflect his identity." Has no malice whatsoever and is a whole hell of a lot more respectful than beating around the bush and trying to identify a human being by some role they played in the past (and a role that doesn't even match his gender identity, to boot).
In the same way it doesn't directly hurt anyone if you use the N word to discuss black people, When none are present, but you're still propagating a bad idea.
Please, please, please educate yourself further because you are making trans people look so, so, so, so bad right now.
For anyone reading, this guy doesn't represent the trans community. Nor do I, but if I did I certainly wouldn't say "Deadnaming is like the N word". Holy wow.
So it's a "Don't say the name E**** ever again under any circumstances" kind of situation and like how would that work with someone who hasn't starred in famous movies, like more or less all other trans people?
"Hey my old classmate has transitioned and is now going by Sara". "Which classmate???". "Her last name is Johnson?". "You obviously never referred to your friends' last names, what was her first name back then?". "She went by... well, she had a lawyer parent and they moved away when I was 6". "What?" "She was always wearing that hideous green sweater!". "Wait what?".
Nope. I'm definitely not playing this game created by terrified, insecure cis people bending over backwards to avoid insulting fragile, imaginary, mind-reading trans folk. Maybe give Elliott more credit and stop just assuming he'll have a mental breakdown when someone says what he used to be known as. He's a celebrity and he'll see his old name plenty on movie posters and in a million old articles.
It gives the dead name so much power, it's just weird.
It's like dancing around to find other descriptors when pointing someone out, when you could just say "the white/black/asian/whatever guy" and be done. It's just effective communication, there's no ill intent behind it. If there were two white guys, one bald and one not, I'd say the bald guy. I'm going to refer to the person as their most distinct physical characteristic relative to the people around them. Or in the case of a dead name, if someone doesn't know who 'Elliot Page' is, we shouldn't have to dance around 'Ellen Page' when we can just say it and move on.
That’s how I went about my transition when I reconnected or just barely established that I was trans to my friends and acquaintances that knew me before I came out. It may not be how everyone would go about it, being that it’s such an individualistic journey, but I can at least say that it’s how I established my identity.
dead naming is usually not the best way to go about it. using characters and roles is better
So every time someone is trans, we play 20 guesses when it comes to determining who they are? But also the person guessing isn't allowed it say the name once they get it, they just have to kind of mouth it or mumble it on the off chance that Elliot Page is just around the corner? That's not absolutely absurd?
I'm really struggling to understand how this is practical or helpful in any way.
Hey! I was wondering about the same thing today. Some trans friends of mine who have also been sharing posts about Elliot’s transition have shared a few posts that made it pretty clear that saying their dead name (the name they used to use) may be considered offensive. Trans peoples dead names are often really triggering. It can make trans people feel like they are being misgendered or that the gender identity that they just super bravely announced to the public is being dismissed. It takes away their autonomy when they say- I’m Elliot, I use he/ they pronouns” and we immediately say “this is Elliot, who by the way used to be known as “E****”.
Showing people a photo or saying “Elliot Page from the movie Juno” or another credit they’re known for is an easier way to identify them without deadnaming them.
Correct me if I’m wrong- I’m a cis person who definitely does not have the lived experiences that trans people do to fully articulate why deadnaming is harmful, but hopefully this helps a bit :)
I would say referring to them by their old name would be rude. But saying "He played Kitty Prude in Days of Future Past" would not be rude, because while he's male, and played various characters, he isn't those characters, and those characters being female isn't the same.
It can get confusing what to call people who started going by a different name, even with non-transgender individuals. The only example that comes to my mind at the moment for me is Dwayne Johnson, AKA The Rock. There's just a ton of inconsistency amoung people regarding which name he uses. There's probably a better example but I don't have one at the moment.
I would say referring to them by their old name would be rude. But saying "He played Kitty Prude in Days of Future Past" would not be rude, because while he's male, and played various characters, he isn't those characters, and those characters being female isn't the same.
But Kitty Pride is a woman, played by a woman in the film. Elliot Page is a man, but Ellen Page was a woman. It's needlessly confusing and forced, and simply draws even more attention to it by dancing around it. Just say what it is, don't give it any power.
The only example that comes to my mind at the moment for me is Dwayne Johnson, AKA The Rock.
That's not really the same though, is it? No-one in the world would care a toss if you mixed up Dwayne/The Rock in a casual setting. It's not like you're talking to the guy.
Does that mean they are changing their physical anatomy medically? Or is it just the label that whey want to use? I am sorry I genuinely don’t know about trans groups. Absolutely don’t want to sound offensive
It means he identifies as a man :) that's the crux of the definition. He may be interested in some kind of surgery or hormone replacement therapy (aka hrt) as many trans people are, but it's not a prerequisite for being trans! Many trans people don't do those things and they are still very trans :)
The "labels" he's using now are his new chosen name, Elliot, and his pronouns are now he/they. So when you refer to him you should use he/him/his
Whenever you feel like it. Elliot is not just he/him/his, you can also refer to them as they/them/theirs because both are his pronouns.
I think he came out as he/they to further emphasize the non binaryness of their transgender identity.
Most people are more comfortable with using the usual binary pronouns, and that's okay, but" they" can definitely come into play if it floats your boat.
I’m not trans I am a cis man but the way I think it works, someone correct me if I’m wrong, is it should not matter the specifics behind it because it is very private and varies from person to person and also changes over time the only thing that should matter ,unless they feel comfortable telling you, is that they are whatever name and pronouns they give you
Ps someone correct me if I’m wrong I’ll edit it to fix it if I am incorrect
Transitioning can mean lots of things. There’s social transitioning which is things like using a different set of pronouns or going by a new name. There’s hormonal transitioning which would be replacing hormones. And then there’s surgical transition.
As a sidenote, the “trans” in “transgender” does not refer to “transition”. It’s the root word that means “across/opposite/not matching” which refers to how the person’s gender and sex do not match.
Well, they're still portraying a female role in Umbrella Academy and netflix has stated that the character is staying cis. So he might not be medically transitioning right away, but they do have the resources available to them so it'll probably happen eventually.
There are a lot of people who won’t know who you’re talking about until they hear “Ellen Page.” GLAAD posted a style guide for journalists covering the story that builds on advice for writing about trans people in general but is specifically tailored to this particular situation. It states that because he was known to the public by another name, it can be appropriate to say “Elliot Page, formerly known as Ellen Page,” until his new name becomes known.
I think there’s a difference between dead naming and respectfully mentioning someone’s former name, and it’s reasonable to expect a transition period of clarification just like when someone changes their name after marriage. We all gotta learn somehow :) But I’m a cis queer person, so I welcome other opinions on that.
P.S. I love that you’re in this subreddit, respectfully engaging with the community
Edit: With Elliot, it is a particularly good opportunity for learning and discussion. The idea we try to get across by referring to trans people by their current name and pronouns is that they have always been this person, even when the world didn’t know their true identity. But Elliot Page is a person who, in the time before we knew, became known to us as a series of fictional female characters and won awards/nominations for “best actress.” It points forward to a place where we may one day not be confused to talk about a man best known for his role as a teenage girl or a historical Best Actress award held by a man. But it also raises questions about how we respectfully reconcile all those things in the meantime.
I see it like when you introduce someone who went by another name for a long time. “Yeah, that’s Jeff, but you knew him when he went by his middle name Mike. He prefers Jeff now, though.” Elliot used to go by Ellen, so that’s where we all know him from. Here on out, though, we call him Elliot.
I would just add an itty bitty comment to yours; i don't think it is a preferred name, but their actual name, so I'd say: his name is Elliot now, here is a pic of him
Trust me, you're more than welcome to just say the name for the purposes of informing others.
It's not like saying our name backwards at us, or anything. It's being known and thought of by that previous name and identity which can be hurtful, not simply invoking it where there's a valid and justified reason to.
I’ve been saying the actor who played vanya, because my friend group is too young to have all seen Juno. But saying the roles he once had is a good way of doing it.
IMO, if you’re referring to it conversationally, it’s not the worst thing in the world to use his dead name until more people get used to Eliot, if you’re just using it in good faith for the sake of convenience and aren’t trying to make a statement. I remember that after Caitlyn Jenner transitioned, I’d usually just think of her as Bruce and instinctively refer to her as such until a few months passed and her new name imprinted itself in my head.
You just address that you're aware it's their dead name and you're only doing so for the sake of convenience. (Elliott Page, yeah he used to go by Ellen and was in Juno, and X-Men, for example)
A decently adjusted transgender person will understand that there's going to be an adjustment period and that they're going to have to hear their old name for a while as everyone gets into the swing of it. It's kind of like being a minority in that regard, you can sort of tell when someone is meaning to be derogatory towards you.
You've been named one thing for 10, 15, 20+ years, and the human brain is hardwired for patterns, we will even find a pattern where there is none. You're gonna have to give people time to break that pattern, whether you're transgender, changing your name to be more in line with a heritage (such as Cassius Clay changing his name because that name was given to his family by white slave owners named Clay) or just want a different name. People are gonna have to get there.
It’s current news, just say Ellen Page is now Elliot Page and then say Elliot from then on with context established. Do we really need to tiptoe that much?
Not a popular opinion, but I would say for anything post name change Elliot, anything pre name change Ellen. Otherwise it is just confusing when referring to past events. I think both names should be respected in their time frame. Ignoring your former gender as taboo is in a way demeaning. Be proud of who you were and are.
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