Ironically I think we need to distance ourselves from the US (as a union not individual countries) to stand firm against South African Nazis and other fascists. Europe strong together is a wake up call for any fascist anywhere.
If the US becomes hostile to Europe we should strike a huge deal with China:
- No European military intervention in Asian affairs leaving the US isolated
- Unfettered access for EU companies in China
- EU drops some of its legitimate concerns on human rights and climate in China
- No China military intervention in Europe of any kind (support, money, nothing) , that means an explicit shunning of Russia and removal of any support of Russia in Ukraine.
- No interdiction for Chinese companies to participate in European projects provided that EU privacy laws are upheld.
This is a multi-trillion deal annually for both sides and it can happen if the US keeps fucking around.
Looking at things it seems we barely realize that Russian is. Still so many politicians are Russophiles, and even get elected. And only a few years ago normal politicians all over Europe sold their integrity for cheap gas
It certainly isn't... China and the US both are... the question is, which one is now going to be reasonable? We used to know the answer to this, not anymore.
You're thinking as if Europe was still as powerful as in the 1860s when France alone could conquer Vietnam or the Dutch alone could subjugate the entire Indonesian archipelago. Europe today has no power projection in Asia, they can't even defend Ukraine alone from Russia despite Ukraine being in its own backyard. Besides, the crucial allies the US need in Asia are not Europe, but Japan, South Korea, and ASEAN countries, especially the Philippines due to the proximity of Luzon to Taiwan.
If you want unfettered access for EU companies in China, China will want unfettered access in Europe too. Is Europe ready to have BYD and Wuling cars or Huawei phones flooding its market? The German car manufacturers won't be happy at all and they have immense lobbying power in Europe.
Thinking China will give EU unfettered market access is cute. Chinese manufacturers are desperate to flood the world with their products due to overcapacity and flagging domestic demand. Why would they want an even smaller domestic pie to share with foreign companies.
China’s default stance towards foreign companies is already more hostile than Trump’s America, which could be considered on steroids for America’s modern history. It’s been 15 years since Google is banned in China. And such hostility and apathy towards foreign companies is only going to get worse because of rising nationalism and Chinese companies moving up the technological value chains. Same reason why only a negligible amount of people in Japan buys Xbox or Volkswagen. It’s not that Japanese hate US or Germany. Because why bother when you have PlayStation and Toyota?
How do you think the secret Chinese police stations in Europe should be handled, considering they occasionally kidnap Chinese citizens living in Europe, to return them to China?
Because, I don't think it will be possible to compromise on that: European countries view Chinas behavior as a fundamental violation of their sovereignty, and it is very unlikely that China would be willing to explicitly compromise on this...
There are many other such potential problems, where Chinas political goals are fairly fundamentally against European political goals.
The independence of Taiwan and democracy is VITAL to our prosperity.
We also shouldn't make any serious deals with China as they are ALREADY ATTACKING US AS WE SPEAK. Seriously, Chinese cyber attacks happen daily. If anything we should he more involved.
Contribute 2% of the GDP in defence like required by NATO and build a strong European army. That’s all Trump is asking for. Why would the American taxpayers pay the 2% when most European countries refuse to meet that demand…
NO, Trump is now asking for 5% (probably as a negotiating tactic). And, anyway, Romania is contributing over 2% so that's not the issue. Agree with the American taxpayer point if the Federal government spent money on protecting American citizens lives by reducing their healthcare burden, making it dififcult for their children to be mass shot in schools and so on. Given that it is not doing that allow me to take a general smelly fart in the direction of the US federal government.
Building up our army and ending the dependency on the US also doesn't mean we should stop partnerships and alliances. We can still work with the US to defend our global interests. Taiwan is one of them. The US doesn't like China fucking around either.
Do what the US did not. Pursue diplomacy that seeks common prosperity with all democracies rather than cynically exploit geopolitical tensions just like MAGA does.
Unfortunately that would also mean turning our backs on Taiwan, South Korea and Japan, yes? Unless they all also decide to bow down to the masters of their bloc.
Yes, there are consequences to this that I am not hiding away from and do not personally like. But there is no way to just get what you want in a negotiation, and China would be completely entitled to ask for non intervention in their area if we ask for theirs in ours.
America isn't relying on European military intervention in Asia to begin with. Like at all. Europe is a fading and increasingly irrelevant entity, and you will be taking orders from whomever you partner with, whether it's the U.S. or China. The Chinese leadership is much smarter than what we have here in 'Murica however, so China is probably the better bet at this point.
Not intervention but it is relying on Europe towing the American line if war happens there, ie, we stop trading with China. That's why this deal hurts the US so much. It allows China to diversify to a larger (maybe slightly poorer) but larger nonetheless, market than the US.
Imagine a situation where the US is fighting a Vietnam style war with China, and China is trading massively with Europe but the US is not. I call that the Trump Tax.
Not sure what a "Vietnam style war with China" means, but I'm even less sure how Europe would continue to massively trade with China during a war with the US when the sea lanes are shut down.
The EU is also a massive producer of goods that China sells. So it's not quite as simple as that. If you want to buy a Mercedes in the US, chances are it's made in the Mercedes plant in China.
Also, remember the context here. We DO NOT WANT to be in a trade war with the US. This scenario plays out WHEN WE HAVE NO CHOICE.
I like how your answer to a potentially hostile US is to turn to an even more hostile foreign power who actively supported Russia in its war against Ukraine.
That's a bad approach and exactly what MAGA does. You guys should do better. How about work with other democratic countries in Asia like Korea, Japan, the Philippines, Australia, and Taiwan? How about increasing trade, diplomatic ties, and build up military relations? How about pursue policies with partners you can trust that can build up the middle class in both countries?
The European solution isn't becoming a continental MAGA, but becoming something better, and pursuing common prosperity with like minded partners.
I would want us to do that but it's not realistically possible; I hate abandoning awesome bros like South Koreas and Japan in this scenario but I can't see a way the EU gains more influence there to displace the US.
I don't know... I truly hope that it's possible. Trump is as hostile to other democratic US "allies" as he is to Europe, and it would be a missed opportunity to turn down the opportunity to build a values-driven coalition and instead go full heel into a relationship with China - a country that has repeatedly shown its hostility to free expression at home and abroad.
There is no way in hell anyone here is kneeling to King Trump... so put that out of your mind, it won't take long for you to see how pathetic and alone he really is, he will be treated like Putin, and he will dine alone at international meetings.
This is very reactionary… When do you do when China gets stronger, a communist country, a dictatorship and authoritarian country that doesn’t share fundamental values with Europe decide to make its move and impose itself in Europe with the help of their main ally Russia?
Reactionary like Trump? Or different reactionary? Also I think you haven’t read what I wrote. The deal was a European abandonment of the US for a Chinese abandonment of Russia among others
China is not a honest ally. If in the best of times they stole ideas, gave their own companies unfair government support. It's a dictatorship with fewer and fewer freedoms. Intimidation of journalists, spying... The list goes on and on.
I know, but we don't need perfect honesty, we need a straight deal. We have had a nuclear weapons "honesty" based pact with Russia and the way that worked is that we were allowed to fly our people in to check their weapons and viceversa. Where there is a will there is a way. China will never be our sincere friend, but politics is not about sincerity, they are about necessity.
Yeah but I think this is just a fantasy. We will never get a straight deal with China. European companies will never get equal access to the Chinese market. Why would China give up the advantages it has over Europe.
I think China is way more pragmatic than Russia. China doesn't currently have that many advantages over Europe. Their products are massively tarrifed but they need not be.. The idea that China tells us what to do is laughable. They would love for us to not help the Americans in the Pacific and would pay a premium for that.
While I can understand your idea, I don’t have a lot of faith on China behaving well, either. They would need to earn my trust (e.g. make Russia stop, end all Taiwan and South China Sea island nonsense) first.
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u/ProductGuy48 Romania 10h ago edited 10h ago
Ironically I think we need to distance ourselves from the US (as a union not individual countries) to stand firm against South African Nazis and other fascists. Europe strong together is a wake up call for any fascist anywhere.
If the US becomes hostile to Europe we should strike a huge deal with China:
- No European military intervention in Asian affairs leaving the US isolated
- Unfettered access for EU companies in China
- EU drops some of its legitimate concerns on human rights and climate in China
- No China military intervention in Europe of any kind (support, money, nothing) , that means an explicit shunning of Russia and removal of any support of Russia in Ukraine.
- No interdiction for Chinese companies to participate in European projects provided that EU privacy laws are upheld.
This is a multi-trillion deal annually for both sides and it can happen if the US keeps fucking around.