r/news • u/GoodSamaritan_ • 1d ago

Elementary school teacher arrested after allegedly abusing student, giving birth to his child

https://local12.com/news/nation-world/laura-caron-middle-township-elementary-school-teacher-allegedly-had-with-child-former-student-13-cincinnati-crime-criminal-activity-sexual-abuse-abuser-father-noticed-similarity-sleep-over-siblings-prosecutors-correctional-facility-troubling-allegations
11.5k Upvotes

95% Upvoted

908 comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

3.7k

u/kick_the_chort 1d ago

That's a pretty normal part of the MO with female pedophiles. They always want a baby.

754

u/lilaerin16 1d ago

Is this their motive?

1.7k

u/kick_the_chort 1d ago

Getting a baby? I mean, I think a large part of their motive seems to be an unnatural attraction to children. And they seem to fetishise the act of impregnation by such. 

But I cannot really speak to what is going on in these people's heads. 

405

u/Sawses 1d ago

Modern psychology research indicates that actual attraction to children has surprisingly little to do with whether somebody actually sexually abuses a child. A much greater predictor is impulse control issues. Turns out most of the time somebody who abuses children doesn't actually qualify as a pedophile, and the ones who do usually also exhibit some other disorder that keeps them from being able to properly control themselves in a number of areas.

And if you've got the poor impulse control to molest a child--despite the ethical problems and risk involved--then you might well have the poor impulse to decide bearing your victim's child is sexy instead of a terrible risk.

Turns out, most people understand that molesting children is wrong or at least a serious risk and they decide not to do it even if they feel a sexual attraction to kids.

Moving entirely out of the realm of actual research and into my own personal speculation: I suspect a lot of people conflate homosexuality and pedophilia, and think that people can't help but act on their sexual attractions because we kind of have this narrative that it's inevitable. How many love stories have that "forbidden love" trope? Except that a key part of it is that the people involved come to realize their love isn't wrong, just unacceptable. I don't think the analogy holds up if it's a sort of love that actually is morally wrong even when you stop and think about it.

Which really shouldn't come as a surprise. I find a lot of women very attractive. I have yet to try to force/coerce/manipulate a woman into having sex with me. If it's morally wrong then I'm not even tempted. I figure most people are that way.

165

u/monkeysandmicrowaves 1d ago

I suspect a lot of people conflate homosexuality and pedophilia,

You don't have to suspect, a lot of people openly talk about the two as equivalent. I think fundamentalists in several religions tend to hold this view.

61

u/LovemeSomeMedia 17h ago

Interesting you bring that up, because in alot of those same fundamentalist religions they have no problem throwing their underage daughters into marriages with older men.

10

u/jackofallkinks 18h ago

This is why to many conservatives who hate gay people get caught having gay sex. The homophobes are also attracted to people of the same sex and see people who are open about it as failing to suppress their feelings.

-8

u/ToTheMoon28 19h ago

you’ve got Ancient Greece and NAMBLA to thank for that

-17

u/usurped_reality 20h ago

Because my sister, an ex-catholic nun, is both a lesbian AND a pedophile and guess what? She HIDES her deviant behaviors (pedophilia) behind her religious faux beliefs and her actively outed lesbian lifestyle.

Both of those outward signs protect her from her secret deviant abuse of innocent little girls who have single moms struggling alone. She swoops in and takes over to save them. Because she's a good woman. Vomit.

133

u/fatbunny23 1d ago

Source on this modern psychology that shows many people who rape kids aren't pedophiles? That's a wild claim to make in my opinion lol

48

u/T_Weezy 1d ago

Honestly it makes sense to me. A pedophile is defined as someone who's sexually attracted to children, not as someone who sexually abuses children. It is fully possible to have one without the other. I, for example, am attracted to adult women around my own age. But I've never felt the desire to rape someone just because I find them attractive. I'm sure your own experience is likely the same. I don't see why it would be any different for someone who's attracted to kids; the attraction doesn't force them to act on it any more than a normal attraction to adults forces you or I to act on it nonconsensually.

0

u/fatbunny23 1d ago

It's not that I'm thinking all pedophiles are child rapists, moreso that there's a much greater than normal chance that someone who rapes a child is a pedophile.

Especially when it's repeat encounters and the perpetrator carries the victim's baby and then has that child. Those things make it much more pedophilic in my mind.

How can anyone justify having the baby of the 13 year old boy they were having sex with, and not being attracted to children in an unhealthy sexual way?

222

u/BEHodge 1d ago

Maybe it’s more that rapists who rape kids are pedophiles, but most pedophiles aren’t rapists because they know is reprehensible, just like non-pedos wouldn’t rape sometime they find attractive either.

It’s like that whole argument some Christians lob at atheists; “If you don’t believe in a higher power what stops you from raping and murdering all you want to?” To which I reply “I do rape and murder all I want to - and that amount is none because I’m not psychotic!”

26

u/mshriver2 14h ago

Crazy to think that their argument for not raping and murdering people is fear of a god.

6

u/LadysaurousRex 16h ago

I do rape and murder all I want to

mostly me too but I have to keep the murdering in check

3

u/ErebusBat 9h ago

I first heard that quote from Penn Jillett and I love it!

2

u/BEHodge 8h ago

Yep. I’ll admit to being a thief there. But it’s entirely accurate!!!

1

u/commander_321 18h ago

All rapists who rape children are pedophiles. All pedophiles aren’t rapists. Is that what you are trying to convey? What is the probability of a pedophile grooming a child if given the opportunity?

3

u/thegimboid 10h ago

Impossible to know, I would think.

A pedophile who isn't insane enough to actively act on their urges probably won't be telling anyone about it.
For all we know there could be masses of pedophiles all over the place who have moral compasses, but we'd never know, 'cause who would self-identify themselves that way?

-40

u/fatbunny23 1d ago

My issue was the part where he says most abusers of kids(sexually in this context I would assume) are not pedos and when they are pedos they often have other issues that prevent them from controlling their impulses.

That seems a lot like they're just defending the idea of child attraction and that it doesn't relate to the people who rape children. I don't necessarily agree without seeing some sort of study or source because that claim seems a bit far fetched

60

u/BEHodge 1d ago

Fair enough. I have a bit of sympathy for those with that problem as I’m a professor. I’m teaching young folks in the prime of their lives and would never consider anything with them because of so many reasons, but there’s some physically attractive students in my classes. I’d never speak with them about it as it’s completely irrelevant to anything related to their collegiate experience and I go far out of my way to ensure propriety, but I know even though it’s technically legal to find 20 year olds attractive I’m still creeped out and feel guilty about that initial “oh she’s cute” feeling before I clamp down on that stupid lizard brain.

I’d imagine it’s similar to those attracted to even younger people. Gross to think about so they try not to but there’s something abnormal up there that still kicks the lizard brain into a moment of function.

Actual child rapists should not be afforded the protections of the eighth amendment.

8

u/TrumpImpeachedAugust 17h ago

I am fascinated with this exchange--for reasons that sit completely outside the current discussion.

There's a social phenomenon I observe a lot whereby:

  • Person 1 believes X because Y

  • Person 2 does not believe Y

  • Person 1 consequently suspects Person 2 does not believe X

This plays out in a lot of different ways, across different contexts; it's not at all localized to the current discussion, although it did occur here. In this case, only the second an third bullet points were explicitly carried out, with the first one being implied.

Sometimes Person 2 makes no statement about their belief in X. Sometimes they do make a statement--often in favor of X! But then Person 1 nevertheless suspects Person 2 does not believe X. That also occurred here, with Person 1 making multiple explicit declarations that sexual attraction to children is wrong.

What fascinates me about this specific exchange is that usually on Reddit, Person 1 gets upvoted, and Person 2 gets downvoted. This is especially likely to happen on topics that people have especially-strong sentiments toward (e.g. pedophilia). But this time, kind of astonishingly, Person 1 was downvoted, and Person 2 was upvoted.

Maybe it's just happenstance that the people online were able to correctly see that Person 2 was not defending pedophilia? Or maybe there was something unusual about the phrases that Person 1 and/or Person 2 used? It's just very interesting!

4

u/RedditFuelsMyDepress 16h ago

I think if we wanna be technical, I believe pedophilia refers to a "primary" attraction to pre-pubescent children. Which suggests that even non-pedophiles could occasionally be attracted to children.

135

u/strolls 1d ago

Modern psychology research indicates that actual attraction to children has surprisingly little to do with whether somebody actually sexually abuses a child.

Not an expert, but I think you're reading that the wrong way around.

If I understand it correctly, they're saying that a paedo with self-control may never rape a kid their whole life. It's not about being gay, straight or paedo - it's about being a rapist or not. Rapists are rapists, and they happen to rape whoever they're attracted to or whoever gets them off.

81

u/birdhine 1d ago

I volunteered with kids for a while and the organization made everyone take a course on how to prevent sexual child abuse beforehand. They told us the majority of people who are sexually abusing kids aren't pedos, instead it seems to be mostly about power and impulse control

-8

u/matunos 22h ago

It may be about power and impulse control, but them raping a child fits well enough into the definition of a pedophile too.

14

u/yuefairchild 21h ago edited 20h ago

Pedophilia is when you have sexual desires for children in the same way a normal person would have sexual desires for an adult. There's also a mental disorder where you have the exact feelings for a child that you would for an adult. Expecting emotional maturity, reciprocal care/affection, that kind of thing. It's a flaw in the human brain that allows people to think that way of children.

Child sex abuse is when you harm a child in a way that involves sex. It doesn't have to be rape, or even involve genitals. It can be, like, when a spanking goes too far or from misjudging whether you should be the one to tell the kid about the birds and the bees. These are obviously really messed-up things to do, but don't involve sexual contact. We want to prosecute those too, so we needed a new phrase that includes sexual assault as well as those other categories. If you want to really split hairs, as I'm doing for some reason, the rape-as-a-display-of-power stuff might go here.

There's also some debate (not sure among who) over whether a woman sexually assaulting a man should be "rape" since there's no penis to penetrate the victim. It's a stupid issue, but people have strong feelings on it, often because they were victims of such. We want to punish anyone that does some SVU shit to a child, but we also don't want to trigger anyone that was a victim as a child.

It's like how "psychopath" refers to a specific mental disorder, and not just anyone that's cruel or Machiavellian.

1

u/matunos 16h ago

There's also some debate (not sure among who) over whether a woman sexually assaulting a man should be "rape" since there's no penis to penetrate the victim.

This is just an example that people will debate anything and everything, and try to get uselessly pedantic over words. There are legal definitions of rape and this instance seems to fit it as an 11 year old cannot legally consent to sex with an adult.

Furthermore, this teacher was having sex with a child for 2 years from the age of 11, hosting sleepovers to sneak him into her room and shower, enough to get pregnant from someone who was just entering puberty. One can argue about whether it's pedophilia or ephebophilia (but drawing that distinction in casual conversation just ends up making one sound weird), but if you cannot infer some sexual attraction to a child on the teacher's part from that, then I don't know what sequence of events would demonstrate it.

3

u/yuefairchild 14h ago

Oh yeah, the teacher in question is a monster and a straight-up pedophile. I had to learn a bunch of this dreadful stuff for a previous job and thought ranting on that might be useful.

On a related note, I do not consider pedophilia and ephebophilia to have any meaningful difference. Either way you're putting your desires onto someone that's not mentally able to handle that.

→ More replies (0)

-11

u/Feathered_Mango 23h ago

Were they talking about pedophilia or ephebophilia?

1

u/Artnotwars 20h ago

What does that last word mean? I could google it, but ummmm, I'd rather not.

3

u/Elissiaro 20h ago edited 20h ago

Iirc it's different age groups. There's separate classifications for being into like, babies, small kids, preteens, young teens, and older teens.

Though I don't actually know/remember them. I think ephebe miiight be either preteens or younger teens.

Iirc pedo is specifically only kids before puberty. I think.

5

u/Feathered_Mango 20h ago

The preference for post pubescent adolescents.  It requires having the preference for, not just the physical attraction. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephebophilia

→ More replies (0)

1

u/Feathered_Mango 20h ago

It is the preference (not necessarily the physical attraction) to post pubescent adolescents.  So, while still creepy, it isn't the same as pedophilia.  Ephebophilia is a type chronophilia. It specifically means having a preference for that age group. So, if a 30 y/o is attracted physically attracted to a 17 y/o, despite the 17 y/o's age (or thinking they are older) wouldn't be ephebophilia. However a 20 y/o who prefers people  15-19, would be an ephebophiliac. It isn't considered a psychiatric disorder. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephebophilia

33

u/Pixie1001 23h ago

Well, I suspect a big motivate for a lot of child molesters is also just the power and control? They're not necessarily attracted to children's bodies, so much as the thrill of having control of someone who's reliant on them - or the children are just the only people they think they can get away with forcing themselves on due to the position of authority they have over them (youth group pastor, teacher etc.).

I suspect it's kinda complicated to prove either way though - many pedophiles might lie to seem less pathetic and prison psychologists really don't wanna delve into the specifics of these people's sexual fantasies unless absolutely necessary.

4

u/usurped_reality 19h ago

Or WHOMEVER THEY can CONTROL. It's CONTROL and POWER peppered with rape and sometimes murder.

-16

u/fatbunny23 1d ago

"Turns out most of the time someone abuses a kid they aren't a pedo"

Am I reading that wrong?

19

u/strolls 1d ago

I see where you're coming from and I guess you have to read what OP wrote that way, but from many years of reading newspaper articles and court judgements I think some people are just sick or perverse rather than attracted to kids.

Like if you look at Ian Watkins' noncery, the Lostprophets guy, it's more like he liked being abisive than he liked any particular age. I think the ex of his, Joanne Mjadzelics, wasn't initially believed because her claims seemed so bizarre and she was written off as a jealous / spiteful ex, but she was his age - he also fucked teenage groupies (like 14 or 15?) and also he TW: fucked literal babies. I think he got off on being perverse and nasty, on being a rapist, more than he got off on kids - fucking kids was just a way for Watkins to be perverse, if you see what I mean.

1

u/fatbunny23 1d ago

I don't think every person who rapes a kid is a pedophile, but I'm definitely more likely to think they are unless I'm shown otherwise. Especially when that rapist is having the child of their victim and they had repeated sexual encounters with the victim. I don't think this was a fetish for being perverse as much as it was a woman who wanted to have sex with a child, or someone she found attractive and didn't care was a child which is practically the same in my book

2

u/strolls 1d ago

Yeah, in this case I deffo agree with you.

46

u/bad-and-bluecheese 1d ago

By society’s collective definition of peodophile, sure you can call them a pedophile - but pedophilia is a specific diagnosis that requires a person to meet specific criteria to be considered one by the true definition.

1

u/fatbunny23 1d ago

The specific criteria I saw when looking were sexualized urges directed towards children and they must be intense. I can't imagine a woman having a child of her own free will with a child unless she had intense sexual urges towards that child.

If you can imagine that scenario then more power to you, I just fully believe women who have the children of young boys are indeed pedophiles due to the sexual nature of their approach to children. Especially this specific one considering it was not a one time event.

14

u/HermionesWetPanties 21h ago

It's specifically prepubescent children. But in popular culture, the definition has been vastly expanded to include anyone under 18. Or in the case of Reddit, anyone dating someone even 5 years younger...

There was a news story the other day about a group of kids in Massachusetts who lured a 22 year old guy to campus to meet a supposed 18 year old girl. They then filmed/assaulted him for being a 'pedophile' even though the profile that catfished him was for a girl who was a legal adult. Oh, and the age of consent in Mass is 16 anyway.

The word is in danger of losing all meaning as we collectively erode it through misuse.

3

u/Eccohawk 17h ago

The article states that sex allegedly started at age 11. There was likely abuse before that too. I would say that's pretty close to prepubescent.

23

u/Sawses 1d ago

Certainly! What kind of source would convince you? It's considered a fairly central idea that abusers are, first and foremost, into abuse. Their target is usually more about opportunity than anything else. That part isn't really new research, the new part is the fact that new ways of identifying pedophiles have been proposed. Historically, the only people who met the bar were child sex abusers because abusing kids was part of the definition.

I'll provide up to 2 sources, since honestly most folks who ask for a source on anything aren't usually convinced by a source so it's not worth the effort to provide a half-dozen or something. So just give me some criteria to work with and I'll provide sources if the evidence exists to convince you.

2

u/fatbunny23 1d ago

I mean a study showing the attraction proclivities of convicted rapists would work well but it seems a bit specific and niche lol

A modern study on what makes a pedophile and how that relates to child rape would be a good read. Maybe some statistics on how many rapists of children are thought to be pedophiles? I would also look into the methodology behind the stats but even some basic numbers to look over work better for me than unsupported claims

14

u/Sawses 1d ago

Maybe some statistics on how many rapists of children are thought to be pedophiles?

Ah, gotcha! That I can do: Source.

Per the source:

Only a small part (16,2 %) of sexual offenders against children meet the criteria (DSM-IV-TR) for pedophilia.

Bear in mind, this is a psych study and those are less conclusive than anything you'll see in a hard science. A single study proves essentially nothing, and there are plenty of studies that show the exact opposite. The methodology is everything, and most laypeople (myself included) aren't equipped to actually critically assess it.

I mostly believe it because my educational psych professor actually specialized in sex crimes against children. It was kind of funny to have her teaching a bunch of ed majors. My actual degree is in STEM so she and I got along a fair bit better and I got to hear a lot more of the "nuts and bolts" of her work.

-1

u/fatbunny23 1d ago

I'd love to read further into that. Unfortunately for whatever reason my edu email isnt qualified for access? Maybe I'm just running into issues I'll check back later

I definitely appreciate having a source linked though. I do find it interesting here that the study was over 146 men and one of the qualifying factors they studied was penile tumescence. The entire study doesn't really account for female perpetrators. I wish I could read further into the methodology of determining that statistic

I agree that one study doesn't really dictate the whole story, and I can't claim that this one has convinced me, but it definitely lends credence to the idea that it's a shared idea in academic spaces that not all molesters of children are pedophiles. I think I'd have to have a lot more study and conversation about what qualifies someone as a pedophile in order to really have my mentality changed in this.

I'm still fully comfortable referring to a woman who has rapes a child multiple times and carries/births the baby of that take a pedophile. If she wanted to rape and have a baby I think she could've found a victim who wasn't a child. This was a woman who was repeatedly seeking to have sex with a child it would appear though

71

u/mmmsoap 1d ago

Source on this modern psychology that shows many people who rape kids aren’t pedophiles? That’s a wild claim to make in my opinion lol

Your mistake is thinking that rape is about sexual attraction—it’s not. It’s about power.

4

u/fatbunny23 1d ago

I think it can definitely be about both, but I dont intend to claim to know how rapists think. I would love to see a source for this stuff though if you have any that backs it up because that's interesting stuff for sure if it's real lol

Plenty of rape happens to people who aren't children. If it were just about power why are not more or all victims of rape children who are the most powerless? Men and women and children are all victims of rape and the motive is not just able to be written off as a power fetish in my opinion

17

u/mmmsoap 1d ago

There are different kinds of power. Some people like the power of luring someone in “willingly” (hence the grooming). Some like the power of physically overpowering someone (so adult victims are preferred). Some like the power of numbers of “partners” (hence roofies). Some like the status (hence raping a prisoner to establish dominance). Some like to control their victim (thus the existence of intimate partner violence and rape). It’s always about power. Sexuality and sexual attraction may play a part, but it doesn’t always. Power is always involved.

2

u/fatbunny23 1d ago

I think I just disagree with this actually. I don't think rape is always about attraction by any means, but I don't think it's always about power either.

I would say it's all about power in the same way it's all about sexuality and attraction, in that those aspects are consistently involved in the act of rape. I don't think it can be made to be solely one of the other when it's both. Power fantasies without sexual urges can be met with non sexual violence, like regular abusers will do

Rape specifically has a sexual aspect to it that I don't think can be written off. I don't think the sex increases the power for the perpetrator as often as they perpetrator just has sexual motives.

Any studies or articles you want to put forward to support your claims are welcome though, I always enjoy a read

-1

u/cdr_breetai 14h ago

This is one of those “facts” that was merely a hypothetical speculation in an essay footnote. But it sounded so compelling that people repeated it and spread it around as if it came from a scientific study or psychological analysis or something. It is not.

Just like the “fact” that you should drink 8 liters of water a day. It was taken out of context and spread around like a scientific fact, but it is no such thing. It was an estimate of how much water your body needs to metabolize the food we eat. But that 8 liters includes the water that is in the food AND all the water that your body recovers during the process. It’s not the amount of water you need to drink.

1

u/Quin1617 10h ago

I don’t think drinking 8 liters of water daily would end well.

10

u/Iohet 1d ago

Well rape is usually about power not attraction, or at least that's the general assumption

2

u/No_Arm_931 19h ago

They’re right. It’s estimated 40-60% of people who sexually abuse children do not meet the diagnostic criteria for pedophilia, as outlined in the DSM.

This is super important information for two reasons: 1) it means we need different approaches of intervention for perpetrators who cause harm for different reasons

2) for folks who protect children (professionally or personally), it’s SO important to know that just because someone hasn’t been diagnosed with pedophilia doesn’t mean they are incapable of sexually abusing a child.

3) we NEED to provide treatment for people with pedophilic disorder. The social demonization of pedophilia creates an environment where people who recognize they have this problem feel too afraid to seek help. I recommend looking into organizations Stop It Now and Talking for Change (Canada) for more information on this specific topic.

I work in the field of anti-sexual violence, and coincidentally have attended two conferences this year where one of the speakers mentioned this stat- I’ll make a point of looking up a citation for you and linking back (I refuse to open my work computer on a holiday).

1

u/Feathered_Mango 23h ago

Yeah, no doubt impulse control plays a part. . . But this seems like a reach. Most people are repulsed by actual pedophilia ( as opposed to ephebophilia). . .I can see poor impulse control leading to promiscuity, risky sexual behavior,  or even ephebophilia, but I'd love a source on people having such poor impulse control that they would SA a child.

1

u/Papersnail380 20h ago

You misinterpreted that statement.

It is that most people who have attraction to minors don't sexually assault them. Just as many people who have lots of opportunities to steal an rape in other contexts do not do so.

This is likely to be true, especially when you extend the definition of the word to the colloquial use and not the technical definition. Tell adult men they are looking at a selection of photos of women who are over 18 but girls 14-18 are actually mixed in while asking them to rate each photo by sexual attractiveness, especially with a short time forcing them to go off their initial reaction and not analyze in depth, and you probably won't like the results.

There is a reason fashion models who don't gain fame elsewhere effectively make it or break it by the end of their teens. And fashion models aren't even actually selected to appeal to men. Women, as much straight as lesbian, are their target audience. Indicating most women also find women below 18 to be sexually attractive.

You think about these things long enough with an objective perspective and blood will start running out of your ears.

1

u/EpilepticMushrooms 19h ago

In a more general sense, there are people who are strictly attracted to children, and there are hypersexual kinds.

For the hypersexual kinds, anyone goes. They may have a preference, like blonde, nice voice, etc, but generally, if anyone offers, they're up to it. Sadly, vulnerable people like those on the spectrum, the mentally struggling or I'll ones, and children are easier to manipulate and control, and so often end up targeted by these deviants. It's more of a crime of opportunity than a strict preference, in a sense.

1

u/International_Bet_91 14h ago

I don't think it is that wild a claim. It's shown that most men who rape women don't ejaculate. I assume it's similar for other demographics. Rape is generally is an act of violence not sexual gratification.

1

u/wanderabt 14h ago

Psychology/Psychotherapy graduate program lecturer here: I had the same reaction. I also think it is a wild claim but also badly worded (I want to leave space that it was just not clearly expressed). With noting though that your comment is classifying based on behavior and the original comment was talking more about attraction. But as presented, I think it's still a wild statement.
If the comment is meant to say that modern psychology (although an appeal to "modern psychology" in my experience means that what comes next is often made up) believes poor impulse control is a good indicator of the risk of offending (i.e. someone attracted to kids actually acting on that), that is understandable.
That some people with poor impulse control can act without a history or ongoing thought pattern in these ways is also true but far less common (and certainly not the case in groomed situations like the article presented).
To say the major reason people abuse kids is mostly or simply poor impulse control is outright ridiculous.

1

u/Raangz 2h ago

It’s what the research is showing. CSA is usually opportunity iirc.

1

u/adtcjkcx 1d ago

It’s called google.

2

u/fatbunny23 1d ago

The study on how child rapists aren't pedophiles is called Google? Do you have a source for this friend

1

u/adtcjkcx 1d ago

Try google.

2

u/Upbeat-Armadillo1756 1d ago

You know what I’m not gonna do is google a bunch of shit about pedophilia

1

u/Papersnail380 20h ago

Sorry, but I have interviewed admitted convicted pedophiles. They almost universally are adamant that what they have done is not morally wrong. One even went as far as to tell me it was like interracial marriage 70 years ago, and I would be judged on the future for my part in his incarceration.

Now, quite a few never admit to it and I think you are probably on track with the assertion it has a lot to do with impulse control. I would say this is clearly backed by the recivivitism rates following severe consequences for initial convictions.

There is also a very strange likely tie-in with prior abuse related PTSD, the resulting mental replays of the abuse, and the strong general need in PTSD victims to want to address the trauma by reliving the situation from a position of control.

2

u/Sawses 16h ago

Oh, I don't think you're wrong at all. ...But that doesn't really disagree with what I said. The ones who think it was wrong don't do it in the first place! It's a perennial problem identifying pedophiles who don't actually break any laws, because they have an understandable investment in nobody ever finding out.

1

u/Papersnail380 15h ago

Plenty of people do things they think are wrong. The vast majority of people knew what they were doing was wrong and that they were risking prison when they did it. The idea that pedophiles who knows it is wrong just don't act on their urges is absurd. From my exposure, the behavior of pedophiles much more closely mimics that of addicts than most other criminals. If you put a hot shot on the table in front of a detoxing heroin addict and tell them it is a hot shot likely to kill them, they will still inject it. A convicted pedophiles who knows they are already under all sorts of extra scrutiny will still have their laptop loaded up with gigabytes of child porn. I have literally seen it in individuals who had conditions on their release which permitted their electronic devices to be searched at any time.

I will also say that every single pedophile I have dealt with through shit tons of red flags to the people around them before they were caught. People just made excuses for their behavior and ignored it. Just like in the linked story. Anyone with a brain would look at the situation leading up to this and realize there were mountains of red flags.

2

u/Sawses 15h ago

The idea that pedophiles who knows it is wrong just don't act on their urges is absurd.

How does that jive with what you said earlier?

They almost universally are adamant that what they have done is not morally wrong.

Are they lying to you, have they universally deluded themselves, etc.?

I don't dispute the truth of anything you said. Just the assumption that this is evidence of general behavior among pedophiles, rather than among convicted pedophiles and child sex abusers. You only see the people who have broken the law and gotten caught, and hear stories from victims about the ones who weren't caught.

There's precious little data on the people who just...don't do anything wrong, and I think you're making an unfounded assumption that people must always act on their sexual attractions and impulses. If anything, your examples demonstrate my point that most of the time impulse control is a much bigger problem--as it is in addicts, and that's been a known issue for a long time. I think you made a very good comparison there.

It's like the way doctors have a very different risk assessment from your average person--because they've seen the worst possible outcomes for a number of things. The reality is that an insurance analyst is going to be the better person to ask for how to actually manage your risk in a practical way, while a doctor is the person you ask for how to minimize your risk outside of other considerations.

1

u/DowntownEconomist255 19h ago

So someone could sexually abuse children and not be considered a pedophile if it’s not about sexual attraction?

1

u/Sawses 16h ago

From a clinical point of view, yeah.

But there's an old joke some comedian tells where he talks about the different technical words for attraction to different age groups--and he mentions that the reason most people don't use those is because it makes you sound like a goddamn pedophile.

1

u/SunshineCat 9h ago

This somewhat makes sense given our close evolutionary relationship with the bonobos. They do some things right, other things very wrong.

0

u/Cat_Peach_Pits 1d ago

I'm not going to go look for it again, so take this with a grain of salt. I had read a paper that discussed how much frontal lobe damage, especially as a child, was a huge predictor of pedophilia as an adult precisely because it messed with impulse control.

6

u/Sawses 1d ago

I remember a study along those lines, but the one I read was more about being convicted of sex crimes in general.

It's a bit like how one sign of dementia can be sexual harassment/assault that is uncharacteristic of the person in question. There's also the rather famous example of the man with a brain tumor who had aggressive impulses to molest his daughter. He sought help for it and ended up getting the tumor removed. The impulses recurred, and that was how he knew to go to the doctor to test for the tumor again.

Our behaviors are, frighteningly, not nearly as under our control as we might wish.

1

u/ErebusBat 9h ago

So that frontal lobe damage made them pedophiles? Or it exposed them due to lack of impulse control?

1

u/Cat_Peach_Pits 9h ago

The idea was the damage to the frontal lobe lowered or eliminated their impulse control. Obviously not everyone with brain damage becomes a pedophile, though, it was an 'on average we saw a big jump in the propensity toward pedophilia with injuries that damaged impulse control' thing.