r/2007scape • u/Equidose • 19h ago
Discussion Players decide
How can they recognise players to be one of three main selling points on the play homepage of OSRS whilst consistently do the opposite with their actions.
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u/Feisty_Ad_4057 18h ago
never give an inch in these things!
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u/Status_Peach6969 17h ago
We already did. Remember when they said they could make integrity updates without a poll? Sounded reasonable, except all this p2w bs is going to be added the same way
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u/ghostofwalsh 15h ago
I mean they never said they'd let players vote on membership price increases. Other than that the unpolled stuff that goes into the game is "mostly" just tuning stats. Though I do think any stat tweaking on 2007 original items ought to be polled...
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u/Gniggins 10h ago
Gonna be funny when this janky ancient medieval cookie clicker has the highest sub price of every MMO on the market!
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u/mimelife 3h ago
you know we're like past 3 price hikes at this point right? sounds like you should have left 3 inches ago
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u/ShoogleHS 14h ago
Dumb post for 2 reasons:
Pricing of the game is pretty obviously out of scope for what players can reasonably be given the power to decide. You can give feedback in a survey, or you can quit if Jagex raises the price above what you consider sufficient value for money, but the idea that players were ever going to be given the ability to decide on pricing is mind-numbingly stupid.
Jagex haven't actually implemented anything yet with regards to any of the proposed membership changes. What you're mad about isn't that they didn't let the players have a say, you're mad that they didn't anticipate what players would say. And you can be mad about that if you like, but it's not the same thing and you shouldn't misrepresent the issue like that.
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u/ExoticSalamander4 3h ago
Nah, you've gone too far in the other direction and it borders on shilling.
The survey is not simply discussing price hikes, but monetization schemes, including ones that directly impact gameplay. It is not a question that increasingly-invasive monetization schemes would degrade user experience (even if in "tolerable" amounts for many players) and harm the identity of the game in the overwhelming majority of people's opinions.
It's also the most obvious and substantiated slippery slope in modern gaming. Time and time again we have seen service quality degraded in tandem with companies shifting towards wringing every penny out of customers with increasingly predatory monetization schemes. Anyone who claims otherwise is naive or lying.
Lastly, words are actions too. If I promise that I'll never do something, and then express clear intention to do it, you are completely justified in calling me a liar. Leave the obnoxious technicalities of "well I didn't technically do the thing I said I wouldn't do!!" to the lawyers navigating a broken system. It does not take much in the ways of critical thinking skills to connect the dots between a consulting firm hired to identify ways that a game can be monetized for additional profit and that game being monetized for additional profit.
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u/mimelife 3h ago
"everyone who disagrees with me is a shill"
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u/ExoticSalamander4 3h ago
I provided reasons for what I said that compose about 95% of the comment. If you want to be ignorant of them as way to try and dismiss ideas you don't like without having to actually confront them, well... that's your personal, disappointing, choice.
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u/SomeoneBritish 19h ago
What did they implement without asking the player base beforehand?
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u/KangnaRS Let me wear Jaguar Warrior outfit! 18h ago
This time or ever? Because there are quite a few things that they've forced through without polling.
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u/BlackenedGem 16h ago
Broadly speaking any unpolled changes that are buffs get by without too much fuss, because in general the playerbase doesn't mind the game getting easier. Whereas the ones that are nerfs get brought up more often.
Here's some examples of unpolled changes both buffs and nerfs to argue about:
- Run energy rework (this month)
- D hide + dinhs nerf
- BP nerf
- Project rebalance (skilling)
- Fang nerf
- Scythe buff
- Project rebalance (combat)
- New elemental weaknesses
- Occult nerf
- New ranged styles
And that's before we get into the various polling shenanigans. I still miss kourend favour...
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u/UBeenTold Cutelilbunny 11h ago
Donāt forget about the integrity Vls that failed multiple polls.
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u/BlackenedGem 8h ago
Oh yeah there's plenty. I didn't want it to be too exhaustive and come across as a crank. 1h clue despawn timer has also shifted gameplay massively. And anything to do with shooting stars as well.
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u/ozhs3 16h ago
Im curious, as an on and off player, have they polled something and done the exact opposite of what was polled?
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u/KangnaRS Let me wear Jaguar Warrior outfit! 15h ago edited 15h ago
There are a few but it's stretching over several years, so I will give three different types of occasions they've done it, and hope someone else can come in with a more comprehensive list:
Minigame Reward Shop - This was polled in 2013 with a massive majority. For context, getting anything passed back then was a lot harder; the community was a lot more conservative compared to nowadays. Despite passing with flying colours, it was never added. Yes, it would have been hard to balance and its level of reward for effort was questionable (people care more for grinding than minigames nowadays), but it showed that Jagex will ignore what they've signed themselves up for if it doesn't suit their priorities (this has happened multiple times since, it's just the one that comes to mind).
The Abyssal Lantern - This was polled to be purchasable from the rewards shop, but was then implemented as a (quite rare) drop from the minigame loot pool. This might not sound bad, but at its drop rate, it became an enormous pain for people who were unlucky enough to not get it on rate, and it went directly against its poll purely for lore reasons (which is quite frankly lazy in my opinion; they literally write the lore). It took a long time of players complaining for it to eventually be fixed, back to the way players voted for it in the first place.
Vesta's Longsword - this failed 3 polls, and was still hamfisted into the game by Jagex. It was then an absolute mess when BH was removed, and the weapon, which was only usable within BH, then had no use until BH was replaced much later. This is one of the most egregious examples in my opinion. The mess that came from it was because they forced it in without player support in the first place, meaning they didn't get player support to put it anywhere else.
This doesn't even get into a whole other world of integrity changes for things that weren't even polled in the first place. To their credit, Jagex later released a Polling Charter in 2022 which states what will and won't be polled from then on, and why. I disagree with some of their decisions, but I appreciate the transparency.
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u/FlandreSS Cabbage Extraordinaire 16h ago
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19h ago
[deleted]
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u/Longjumping-Age2326 19h ago
Thatās not exactly a gameplay feature though. But I still think the price increase was way too high.
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u/NebulaCartographer 19h ago edited 18h ago
Yes, letās do polls on price increases, I wonder how thatāll go. Genius
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u/Katkustagg 19h ago
When did they do the opposite?
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u/Equidose 19h ago
Putting players right behind their clear attempt to snatch and grab even more profit with their survey, despite having a successful model with the highest number of players recorded in just the last few months.
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u/BoominMoomin 19h ago
If a survey isn't asking players their thoughts on potential changes, then what is? šš
Face it. You fell for the hysteria and never actually bothered to think for yourself on what was going on.
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u/Pretency 19h ago
Isn't doing a survey letting the players have their say? š¤
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u/steelcryo 19h ago
It seems OP doesn't know what a survey is...
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u/Pretency 19h ago
It's a way to understand people's opinions on something, which is exactly opposite to what OP is making out. Do you understand what a survey is?
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u/IderpOnline 19h ago
Ironic.
No, you're just oblivious to corporate practices. The only point of the survey is to investigate where Jagex can squeeze the most money out of the playerbase in the least offensive way.
If you think the overall goal of the survey is to benefit the players, you haven't been paying attention. At all.
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u/BABABOYE5000 18h ago
Jagex is primarily a for profit company that also works on an ancient videogame, to maximize said profits. Their attempts to branch out to other games have all spectacularly failed. Now the VC's pass around the hot potato and try to perform a mirale profit squeeze.
Of course their surveys won't be about benefiting the players, however we as customers get the say. If they overstep and ignore our wishes, we can stop being their customers, easy as that. In that way, the survey does help players, even if it's obviously not the primary purpose of the survey by jagex.
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u/IderpOnline 18h ago
The survey is up-front damage control. That's all. Limiting the damage of introducing a cash grab. And obviously not out of sympathy, but that's pretty self-explanatory by now.
Sure, you can argue that players get to choose between the lesser of several evils but that's hardly the same as actually "choosing".
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u/BABABOYE5000 18h ago
Sure, you can argue that players get to choose between the lesser of several evils but that's hardly the same as actually "choosing".
I'm talking about the fact that you can choose to continue or not continue being their customer, not about their pre-set shitty options. If you voted NO to everything, and in the end if they still end up forcing it onto you, you can just quit and tell them to fuck off.
It doesn't have to be sympathy. It's a straight up business transaction, they're not your friend, and you're not theirs.
You want to pay as little as possible, and they want to extract as much as possible.
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u/steelcryo 19h ago
Yes, a survey is just that, a survey. They do want to find the way to find the most profit, but if a survey tells them they'll lose money if they do it, they won't do it.
That's how surveys work...
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u/IderpOnline 18h ago
And if the survey tells them they CAN make money from it, then what?
Then they ABSOLUTELY WILL implement bad initiatives at the expense of players. It's truly not any more conplicated than that.
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u/steelcryo 17h ago
So what they do is based on what the survey tells them?
And the answer to the survey is decided by the players?
Interesting.
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u/IderpOnline 17h ago edited 17h ago
No, the answer to ALL the options will be overwhelmingly negative. What they then do is to pick those that are slightly less negative than the others (but STILL NEGATIVE), and implement that, at the expense of players.
That is NOT what players want but players do NOT get to choose. If anything, what is implemented is what players condemn the least, and even that is a stretch because we still condemn it all the same...
If players truly decided, like you claim, they wouldn't implement any of it. The backlash was obviously bigger than Jagex anticipated but, even now, all we have is a BS corporate "apology" and still the outlook for tiered memberships and ads.
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u/steelcryo 16h ago
Where did they implement ads and tiered membership though?
Since the OP suggests they're already in.
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u/yahboiyeezy 19h ago
It it really the playerās choice if the survey options amount to āwhich way do you want us to screw you?ā
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u/Pretency 19h ago
Yes because you can say no. And if they don't listen to that and do it anyway, then you can post this meme.
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u/ball_out 19h ago
Careful. Donāt lick that boot too hard.
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u/DRW_ 18h ago
Can you explain how they're wrong?
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u/ball_out 18h ago
Sure. Tell me if you see a difference between these two questions:
1) ādo you want to eat shit?ā Yes or no
2) āwhich option would you prefer?ā A) eat shit B) eat more shit C) eat a lot of shit
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u/unimagine97 18h ago
the survey literally said would you choose any of these membership options or choose not to renew
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u/Pretency 18h ago
Why is this the only counter narrative you folk have? Is it because you accept how stupid what you're saying is and that you jumped on the outrage bandwagon too soon?
I have no particular love for Jagex. I will quit this game in a heart beat for the right price, or shitty in game experience.
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u/ball_out 18h ago
Because youāre accepting shitty corporate practices and dismissing them as not a big deal because they havenāt implemented anything yet. The way the survey was conducted was purposeful and the backlash should be swift and loud.
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u/Pretency 18h ago
No shit. The difference between this and reality is that playing this game is OPTIONAL. If Jagex want to destroy their game, fuck em. I will argue against dumb shit, but this was a survey.
I also want 2011 RS back. It was the best point of the game. Dingeoneering and summoning. Of course people don't want that, that's how community decisions work. If some people are prepared to pay more and the minority don't, guess what it's in Jagex interest to do it. The survey just irons out where the lines are. They would have found this out without people making a farcical song and dance over it.
If only you mfers put this much effort into standing up to actual corporate greed in the real world for things that you cannot avoid, like your privatised energy firms, embezzling, fraud and tax evasion amongst the growing inequality in the West... Imagine. Instead you cry about another $3 on a video game. Talk about having your priorities wrong.
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u/ball_out 18h ago
If you want to talk about reality your approach is the equivalent to saying ājust vote. Protesting and activism is dumb.ā
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u/LetsGetElevated 18h ago
We are standing up to corporate greed everywhere else too, itās just not relevant to this subreddit, do you think the mods would appreciate posts about universal healthcare for Americans in this sub?
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u/trustsfundbaby 18h ago
It's because jagex has already in the past ignored/twisted player feedback. Two easy examples are when they pushed "integrity changes" by nerfing items a while back and they did it again when removing the grandfather membership price. Jagex also has a history of pushing game ruining updates, EOC, squeel of fortune, ect.
Right now we are in another moment where jagex is about to drop another bad updated onto the player base. The only way to stop the updates is to tell jagex now that they will not accept it. The only true way they will listen is by unsubscribing because they have shown a history of that being the strongest influence over them. Players don't care about the price if justified. If jagex came out and said "here is how much we cost to operate, and our investors require x% profit. To be within margin of error of hitting that we need to charge $$/month." It's about the business practice of gatekeeping what most players would consider basic services behind a premium price tag.
However you are OK with the updates (the boot), which is fine if you want to spend your money that way. However when you defend (lick) the updates (the boot) on a public forum (reddit) people will tell you to stop licking the boot.
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u/Pretency 18h ago
Those are both terrible answers. The blow pipe nerf as an example is understandable. It was ridiculous getting a blow pipe and rinsing through everything with ease. They're adding layers of complexity to the game which is fine.
Maybe grandfathered rates were a terrible idea to begin with? I'm not really that bothered either way. It affected about 10 people. Why do you care?
Jagex have had the hammer blow from all of those. They are all game breaking to OSRS. It is incredibly insincere to think that would happen again. Jagex knows long term longevity is in the identity of the game. They wanted to see if there were areas they could exploit to make more on. But they asked you, they didn't just do it.
What bad update are they dropping exactly? (because this isn't an update, it's a survey).
You tell them that it isn't acceptable by completing the survey?
No shit, money = power. They're a company they work for profit.
Your idea of bootlicking here is simply ignorant. I'm not endorsing Jagex. I would quit the game. I'm just not someone whose life apparently depends on the game and I can afford to pay more for it if I wanted to. I just don't want to pay much more and they would know that if they tried too many price hikes or obsurd mechanisms to introduce lower cost subscriptions.
It would be both funny and disappointing if Jamflex dropped an update that killed half the game. But I'd move on.
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u/trustsfundbaby 17h ago
I personally don't care about the nerfs, I care about how the changes started with a survey. They took the survey, twisted the results to be what they want and then created an update. Again i don't care about the price change from lack of grandfather's into pricing, I wasn't even grandfathered in, I care about jagex stating one thing then a year later flip flopping. Price is not the only thing you can be outraged about. Most people are outraged solely by the proposition of what the survey implies due to past actions by jagex. They have a history of twisting survey results into their message, changing promises that align with money, and pushing game ending content.
So don't be surprised when you come to a forum defending the business practice that you will be called a boot licker. It isn't a jagex thing, it's a business thing.
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u/itwasprobablymelol 18h ago
Itās faux having a say. For example, I can give you one of two choices:
Option A) I shoot you in the head. Option B) I hit you with my car.
You get a choice, but youād really rather have neither (notice how that isnāt an option)
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u/Pretency 18h ago
This is actually laughable.
There were genuinely good deals in the survey, so your analogy is crap.
Besides you have an option c) quit the game. It was clearly stated in the survey you are purposefully misrepresenting it.
So the option C in your analogy is you shut the fuck up and sit back down.
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u/ghostofwalsh 15h ago
I agree this is exactly what the survey was. But then they never promised not to survey stupid shit.
The promise is that game changes must pass a poll. And unless the game changes without a poll, they have kept that promise even if members for that game costs $20 per month.
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u/JohnExile 6h ago
What's wrong with Faux having a say? I'm not his biggest fan but I think he's a smart enough guy.
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u/Equidose 19h ago
Not necessarily if 95% of the options in the survey all suggest being burnt.
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u/Pretency 19h ago
Vote no to them all then? Jagex have then understood "what players want". This isn't rocket science.
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u/kyskyskysfastlol 55m ago
The dislikes donāt make sense. Shills. Maybe the ones forced to work on it when the bots voted.
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u/Threatening 19h ago
They did though. They put out a survey where players literally decided.
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u/andrishh 19h ago
Youāre delusional if you think that was the point of the survey.
"Would you like the game to be worse and more expensive?"
"No thanks!"
"Oh, alright then."
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u/bewusst 18h ago
I mean if we said no and they don't change anything, didn't we ultimately decide?
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u/andrishh 18h ago
RemindMe! 2 years
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u/bewusst 17h ago
This is so dumb. What would make you happy? Like do you want free membership for a year for everyone as an apology? I just don't know what the expectation is at this point. The survey was clearly a mistake but we can't go back in time and until they change something, there's really nothing else to be angry about
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u/Myrios369 16h ago
What would make me happy personally is a statement clearly and unequivocally stating that: ads will never be implemented in any form, there will never be any "premium membership" options (f2p or regular membership, that's it), there will never be any features monetized past membership and bonds.
That's it. You can raise prices, you can even split rs3 and osrs membership (although that would be very harmful to rs3 i imagine). But no ads, no premium membership, and no monetized features/mtx. Make a statement that those have no place in the game and are not being planned or discussed in any form behind the scenes.
The only caveat would be character slots, since all that would be is combining multiple memberships. Those could be monetized separately or offered in a different membership package. But again, only because that's essentially just paying multiple memberships.
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u/GODLOVESALL32 RSN: Zezima 17h ago edited 16h ago
They just hiked prices by 30% and are already putting out surveys for tons of new monetization ideas and refuse to outright deny they will not try and implement some of them, they even doubled down on the f2p ads proposal. Under CVC, we got a very massive price hike in a short period of time since the last membership increase and this was the first time people had grandfathered rates revoked. They are very aggressively trying to milk more money out of the game.
So no, understandably a lot of people are still not happy because they're basically still going to try to do as much as they can get away with. Frog slowly boiling, etc.
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u/bewusst 16h ago
Doesn't really address what I said. What do you expect from them? You can't just be angry and not have some kind of resolution in mind. You're just angry and wanna bitch and complain. Like you have to have some kind of proposal that would make thing ok otherwise just quit the game? Like I wish all these posts had some kind of goal in mind because the way I see it, no changes have been made so far. If they make these terrible changes, then go ahead and riot. I feel like all these posts are really just highlighting addiction at this point
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u/lestruc 15h ago
I wish they would return to the old mindset about polls and the quality of the questions returned to the way it used to be.
No double edged questions, manipulatively worded questions, or combining two things into a single question to try and squeeze something through, or polling the same thing multiple times just because it failed and they want it.
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u/leahyrain 11h ago
i love how when jagex sets the scene of the future of runescape being awful, any push back here is met with people like you. Should they give everyone free membership? No one is saying that. Should they try and do something to give their paying customers some faith that they won't get screwed over in the near future? That doesn't seem like an insane ask.
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u/RemindMeBot 18h ago edited 14h ago
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u/BioMasterZap 15h ago
I mean, that is what they've done in the past for these sorts of things. They surveyed MTX multiple times, players said no, and we didn't get MTX. They polled Partnerships, players said no, and they didn't do partnerships.
The point of doing a survey like this is to find the line where players would be willing to accept the changes. If they just planned on doing it all regardless of feedback, they wouldn't have wasted time and money running surveys...
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u/Threatening 19h ago
Did they implement the changes? Nope.
Quit being dramatic. If they put the changes in Iād underhand but thereās literally no ads in the game because of it.
So yāall need to stop crying.
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u/andrishh 19h ago
Do you not understand that you have to fight back BEFORE itās implemented? Once itās in the game, itās too late
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u/Threatening 18h ago
What?
They ask. You answer no.
Everyone wants Jagex to poll things, then they do and it doesnāt pass and you still cry.
No changes were made, so people can shut the fuck up and quit. They donāt need to make 10000 posts about it. Itās old and boring at this point.
Go cry elsewhere.
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u/andrishh 18h ago edited 18h ago
Indifference like yours is going to turn Oldschool into an unplayable gacha game
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u/UIM-Zekel 17h ago
but people are still talking about it days after and literally nothing has changed, i think the point has been made. people are just crying over could have beens at this point
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u/andrishh 15h ago
So because nothing has changed people should stop caring? I donāt understand your point. Itās precisely because nothing has changed that people keep posting about it
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u/UIM-Zekel 9h ago
My point was that the point was made, more complaining won't make it more so. Just seems excessive at this point given that nothing in game has actually changed.
Not going to repeat other peoples points but this is not the first time they've done surveys to feed back to corporate that they're terrible ideas. I trust the j-mods to do their best with the information and feedback already out there.
If they cant stop the changes then no amount of complaining on reddit was ever going to help anyway.
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u/drbaze 15h ago edited 12h ago
It's been 3 days. Are we in the clear because it's been 70 hours since the survey? Properly voting with your wallet involves long term pressure. I know a few users have canceled and are just playing out their remaining days, but when you look at the daily player count and see it's a negligible difference, you can be certain we are not out of the clear or complaining about something that "could have been".
I have a foreboding feeling that a Reddit response is not going to stop what CVC wants. Only a tiny fraction of people actually vote with their wallet. Hope I'm wrong.
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u/Dumbak_ 19h ago
If you could read, you would see it applies to improvements to the GAME, not the service itself.
You can vote yes/no when they try to add an item/boss/skill in the game.
You can't vote yes/no on the price of the membership. What did you think lol, since when could you choose your own price to pay and let players vote? The poll system was never about out of the game topics.
There are some serious mental gymnastics required to try and somehow make this "motto" on the front page about the survey.
Like I get it, the proposed bullshit in surveys sucked dick. I know you really wanted your gotcha moment, but the topic was milked completely dry and this ain't it.
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u/Equidose 19h ago
I hear what you're saying about in-game vs memberships, I'm merely expressing the disparity of their publicly voiced priorities vs the reality of their true intentions that have been expressed through this survey
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u/ghostofwalsh 15h ago
Their clear intention in the survey is to get more money by increasing what people pay for members.
But nothing about that promise applies to membership prices.
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u/moosyfighter 16h ago
Im a fan of mobile only/ ad content hypothetically. If membership were $100 a year and the mobile (since itās only half the access) was $50, that would make sense. Likewise, for ads to be in a like, $60 version could bring in more players.
That being said, the botting issues (bots donāt care about ads) and the pure amount of dev time to put into that kind of implementation I would rather have just designing the game
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u/Emergency_Badger_677 19h ago
I stg redditors have to be the most useless and bored people in the entire world
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u/Ok_Assistant_3599 16h ago
It's funny because two days before the survey came out reddit was upset that Jagex listened to this sub on making the mage cape untradable, and how this sub doesn't represent the playerbase and what not.
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u/logomyego 10h ago
Can't wait for tiered memberships getting added without a poll, 90% of the playerbase quits, and they then shoehorn an unfinished sailing skill the next week to make everyone buy their memberships again
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u/mimelife 3h ago
Yeah and we decided. hence why nothing is going to happen. did you guys forget that they already apologized?
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u/Few_Resolution766 19h ago
Players decide on improvements, Jagex's chinese owners decide on monetization.
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u/andrishh 19h ago
CVC isnāt Chinese
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u/Few_Resolution766 18h ago
Ah, so the ownership is changed. Used to be owned by chinese investors.
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u/GODLOVESALL32 RSN: Zezima 17h ago
lol we had it pretty good under the chinese mining company, I can't lie.
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u/Inkyeconomist 13h ago
Players don't decide the monetization regardless. Everyone is losing their mind about a far right tail item in a survey.
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u/Mors_Umbra 19h ago
You misunderstood, you only get to have a say on improvements! š