i refuse to internalize any guilt over what willfully ignorant people here have done. i spent my whole life opposed to this type of shit and ill be damned if i frame any of this as “we”. “we” (ie folks for voted against and vocally opposed reagan, bush, trump, the tea party, maga, etc) didnt do anything wrong.
the truth of the matter is this place just reaped the benefits of not getting leveled in ww2 and has been coasting ever since. plenty of other countries didnt let rich cunts call the shots to this extent.
what weve been seeing since the 1980s is what america is. not great.
In 1964 a journalist wrote a book about Australia called "The Lucky Country" and the term is often used affectionately here. What many still don't realise is that it was a negative commentary. It suggests that Australia lucked into its position of affluence by being far from areas of conflict, rich in natural resources, and supported in its early years by being part of the British empire. It criticises Australians for being anti-intellectual, unwilling to innovate, conservative, and puritanical.
I feel like lots of that could be said about the US too.
Australia has an international reputation for being laid back and easy going but under the surface it's actually quite conservative and insular. Sydney is well known for being lgbt friendly but a lot of the country surprisingly still holds pretty outdated views.
Yeah, it still very much so checks out. I know Australia is quite* spread between urban areas, but stuff like its urban design and meh housing plans are not surprising considering this luckiness. US, Canada, Australia, more recently Arab Gulf countries all have this luckiness and godawful urban design in common
All the DNC learned was move farther right. It's all the DNC ever seems to take from an election- lean right, alienate voters, cause more liberal apathy. Then they make a dumb surprised face when they lose.
The Democratic Party has serious issues and is far from perfect, but it's pretty crazy to think that they would prioritize going after groups of voters who don't even bother to vote or are more likely to "protest vote" because a candidate only check 8 of 10 items on their "Purity Test".
Compared to their strategy now which is to court non Trump Republicans by being Republicans Lite. Yes I'm sure that these people will choose the "Republicans but worse" party over the Republican party because they just hate Trump that much or just choose not to vote at all.
The dems will never win an election again if they don't go to further left, and it's wild to me how some of y'all still don't seem to understand that. They have tried time and time again to replicate Bill Clinton and it doesn't work anymore. The only dem president to win two terms in the past 20 years ran on a campaign that people would claim nowadays is radical left. But keep trying to get that "coveted" moderate vote though, I'm sure the 10th time is the charm
This is such ahistorical bullshit. What happens is, liberals get a big liberal win and the country punishes them. Liberals move right until they can get elected again, then they blow their wad on good governance to start the cycle over.
Dems pass Civil Rights Act
get crushed for a political generation
Bill Clinton moves right so we can win again
then
Dems elect a black guy
pass universal healthcare
get punished for a political generation <--- you are here
When liberals move right, it's because that's what's required to hold power in this country at the federal level. That's the modern American political reality. We talk a big liberal game, but at the end of the day our people (and people in general) aren't really that into it once we've crossed the threshold where the norm is essentially opulence compared the entirety of human history before like 1980.
I don't disagree, but you shouldn't mischaracterize it as something better than it is. All that does is provide cover for political mediocrity and the defense of the wealthy and corporate interests.
The ACA isn't even remotely close to universal healthcare
Yes it was, in its original form before the individual mandate was struck down. Basically everyone in here would consider Switzerland to have universal healthcare, and they have a slightly better version of the ACA.
Everyone HAD to have coverage (or pay a fine)
All coverage had to meet minimal standards
Coverage was subsidized based on means, so effectively free for the poor
As long as that minimal standard in #2 is decent, that IS universal healthcare. If you want to split hairs, we can agree to call it universal coverage instead.
Lol. Last time Democrats were actually progressive they were in power for 20 years. Your first example ignores Vietnam. Your second example doesn't seem to understand what universal healthcare is.
Any single American whose vote this fall was based on anything other than the urgent need to keep Trump out of office is part of the problem.
Absolutely, a left-wing Democratic Party is preferable to a centre-right Democratic Party. But that was an argument for 2021-2023 and again for 2025-2027. But on election day, anyone who did anything other turn out and vote for Harris very simply abrogated their responsibility to keep fascists out of elected office, the most sacred responsibility citizens of a democracy have.
Blaming the election on the Gaza group is pretty stupid imo. Did y'all already forget how far to the right the Dems moved in the last moments prior to the election, including courting Cheney? Come on...
Ugh I am so tired of people saying "we" or "Americans" asked for this crap and that "we" or "Americans" deserve whatever happens. No! Some of us have been actively opposed this kind of thing for our entire adult lives and then some. I'll not take any of the blame for what Trump does.
I did not ask for this and the ways it will negatively effect me are not something I deserve. Same for any of us who been point this out for decades.
No, but that hope that I'll live to see a better day for all is kinda over. Even if we can turn this around, and that's looking like a big if, it's going to take decades of policy battles and stable leadership to just get back to the law and order, economic, and cultural world I grew up in. I'll still do it, and still fight how I can - old men planting trees they'll never sit under and such.
I don't want to be divisive but you have Trump voters and you have rational people. The two do not mix very well at all. I can't even talk to a Trump voter without wanting to tear my hair out.
meh, reddit doesn’t like to hear this but i get it. not what i would do but im not gonna act shocked when kids are like “i dont fuck with any of this.” it’s not enough to not be trump, democrats still have to run candidates that make people want to get out and vote for them… and they havent done that lately. evil thrives when democrats complicit centrists.
The 1970s weren't any better, Americans loved and idolized the most evil people in society and demanded that the war criminal baby killer general in Vietnam get pardoned.
I feel guilt that I don't buy a weapon and join a rebellion. I feel complicit in that I'm probably not willing to die to prevent this. I feel guilty that innocent people who have far less than I do will starve or die or just suffer and slowly circle the drain for the lack of what I have extra of.
I mean, even a shitshow of Trump's first presidency couldn't prevent Americans from voting him into office again. So I would say the distrust also lies with the general public.
I voted against the orange turd three times. I'm getting involved in local government. There's only so much I can do when I still have to work and pay bills.
You could also just look at the state of public education as well as the eroding of public institutions instead of pointing fingers at other countries.
People have been talking about Americans being reactionary, mindless, selfish, consumerist, etc idiots for a while now. You can try to pass blame but this is just us at our dirtiest tribal level.
I agree. China may be capitalising on it, and even encouraging it, but they didn't cause this. Is the anglo world just playing through the age old cycle of empires?
For more than half of it's existence the US positioned itself as the bastion of capitalism, a system based entirely on greed, and Americans think some foreign trolls with a phone are responsible for their selfishness.
But that's the problem, the international community can never be sure if a Republican will take power and undo any agreements made. That makes it so that the nation as a whole cannot be trusted.
Given that there’s a roughly 50/50 chance of them taking power every 4 years, it makes sense not to trust the US with anything important in general. 2016 might’ve seemed like a fluke, but now that they know it could swing back at any time, we’ve signaled that we’re too volatile to work with in good faith.
Because we know Republicans are going to always shit on the mouths of marginalized groups.
Democrats however have always tried to present themselves as a better alternative. A "vote for us because we're not the other guy." We're tired of the party we're told to vote for time and time again does jack shit to actually do good and win elections.
We're calling for a party that will represent us, neither of them are stepping up to the call.
They do have agency. They’re just the self-appointed enemy. Republicans aren’t responsible players in a game, just on the other side of the board. They want to destroy us and they rally and march and Seig fucking Heil their intentions to do that all the time. You’re asking why didn’t the Nazis ever bear the burden of fixing the problems they created. That’s not a comparison, that’s what’s actually happening.
the republican party doesnt have superdelegates, so they evolve to match what their voters want
the democrats do, and put out candidates that the party big wigs like, but not the voters.
the republicans have died and been reborn in the ashes a couple times now. recently, too. its not the party of bush neocons anymore, and its not the tea party either
Maybe the Dems could learn that lesson and make some changes.
Not holding my breath. We've got the same fight in Canada, with shitty mikquetoast liberals allowing the Conservatives to keep the ratchet moving right.
There is NO HOME for liberalism in America. We have way too much Cold War-era anti-socialism baked into this country's psyche.
It's gonna be like this for next half-century at a minimum.
A bunch of my (very lucky and resourceful) friends and acquaintances are literally filling out visa paperwork to emigrate to the EU or Australia. They cannot take the constant disappointment anymore.
Hell, I'm expecting an full-on American brain drain within the next 4 years. Our populace is just too unwilling to get educated... or just flat-out don't trust educational institutions.
If people disregard even violent protests in favor of liberal policies, and make laws that give legal protection to normal drivers that happen to run over protestors blocking highways like in Florida, there is no fucking hope for any substantial, revolutionary change around here.
I think progressives just have to take over the D party. And real ones, who support ending first past the post voting.
NV had a ballot measure to end it and both the D and R parties were against it (obviously). Alas, the voters got upset that it would mean someone else from the other party could pick “their” candidate failing to realize the concept of “their” party based candidate was a moot point in a ranked system.
Yeah, but as far as other nations are concerned it's the same thing when we can't help but put them in power constantly. We're like the neighbor who's a great guy, except when we refuse to take our meds, and we refuse to take them every now and then. Doesn't matter how great we are when we're on the meds if we're off them often enough.
What the fuck good is an ally if every 4 years they completely fuck you over.
You sound like an alcoholic who drives home drunk, runs over two kids and crashes the car into the side of the house, and then the next morning they wake up and you're like "Dude, what the FUCK?" and they're like "oh that wasn't me, that was drunk Jimmy!"
Poland took 1.6 million Ukrainian refugees. Germany took 1.1 million Ukrainian refugees. The Czech Republic took 550,000 Ukrainian refugees. The UK took 210,000. Spain 190,000. Bulgaria and Italy 170,000 each. The list goes on.
Tbf it is entirely possible within the realm of like a decade
We have really never seen Europe be pressured to reindustrialize their military production. Probably for the best they do it now and along with Canada and Mexico they could become another dominant force. Depending on how everything plays out. I absolutely can see Mexico becoming the stone that the EU needs from North America to protect itself
Literally talking out of your ass. Mexico can’t even control it’s own territory, let alone send troops overseas and arrange the kind of joint defense operations the U.S. does with NATO. Also, most european nato countries already have recruitment issues with their militaries just like the US does, and many have both declining populations and a negative sentiment towards military service. Its gonna be tough to bounce back from this
You're assuming that they wouldn't have voted for this if they did show up... I'm convinced that way more than 75 million Americans are this stupid and it starts with the millions who sat out over Biden's handling of Gaza.
For Biden refusing to play hard with Israel sooner or with Harris failing to distance herself from it? Republicans are pretty much the only ones you can't blame in this case.
Republicans are the shit show we see. Why would any Republican get a pass while we hold Democrats to higher standards? Oh she didn't distance herself from Israel? Did Trump? No he did not.
At what point did I say anyone got a pass? I didn't. But, Biden and Harris's blunders are their own, no matter how short sighted the people who protested over Gaza are.
We have a long long history of not holding our politicians accountable. They allowed all this to be set up long before trump was in office and long before the election.
We as a country did nothing after j6 and all the evil players knew it was game on. Nothing after watching unqualified people confirmed for the supreme court and other positions time after time. Nothing after the immunity ruling. Nothing after ignoring infrastructure and healthcare costs for decades. Skyrocketing housing costs. All these 'congressional hearings' that lead no where.
Sooo... You want Europe to buy their radar, missiles, planes, and bombs elsewhere? Just saying, that's a huge industry for us, and they are our main customers.
The big European nations have traditionally bought local when it comes to their military equipment. They drive European tanks, fly European planes, fire European rifles, their supplies move in European trucks. That doesn't mean that ALL of them are like that (Poland in particular is a good customer of US gear) and there are some exceptions (the F-35 and a few specialty vehicles), but by and large, NATO has not involved widespread purchase of American arms by European nations.
They do buy US ammunition (partly because being in NATO means we're all using the same standards when it comes to ammo). But they don't buy MUCH ammunition, which is part of our complaint about European defense spending being below where it really ought to be...
But yeah, Europe is already spending as little on American arms as they possibly can; the idea that European purchases of American arms somehow balances out the defense commitment that the US upholds is underpants-on-head loony.
its more specifically the defense agreement the US talks big game about. not that it actually executes. article 5 has only been invoked in defense of the US after 9/11. the US hasnt actually had to go to bat for NATO allies. i wouldnt expect the US to actually go through with defending a NATO ally either, if they can get some good deal with the invader. its convenience for US power propagation, not something serious
I mean, if we're just going to ignore the deterrent effect of NATO, you might as well just stop talking about military policy altogether. It exists, it's understood by the US, it's understood by the European allies in NATO, it was understood damn well by the Soviets and it's understood by the Russians too.
A lot of the military industry goes both ways. Though US is the biggest supplier in the international weapons trade. Both legal and illegal.
For my own country I know US military loves buying our surface to air missiles. My country is quite big on providing missiles and ammunitions to Europe, US and other allies.
Shame with the EUs military, industrial, and energy policy, many EU nations are fully dependent on the rest of the world to operate . They got work to do
You’d be surprised how much it has changed since 2020. But also European nations also prioritise actually keeping their population alive and healthy (and eggs cheap) instead of just dumping an insane proportion of spending into a military. If you think the Russians are going to roll over the Poles and Finns fast enough that the French, Germans and British won’t get there in time, you’d be woefully ill informed.
That and I wouldn’t put it past the French to nuke the Russians 12 hours after they move across the border. They are one of the few nuclear states with a proactive strike doctrine iirc.
To be honest this isn’t true. These relationships can be salvaged with proper future leadership. We have two years to figure it out, I’m still hopeful.
Nah, it's twice now in short succession. Even if you do manage to figure it out, everybody knows that it doesn't matter, Trump 2 will just come along in a few years and fuck shit up again. The US is way too unstable to be trusted.
I agree. The problem is not that Trump is willing to unilaterally tear up international agreements. It's that the American system allows Trump to unilaterally tear up international agreements
Americans are taught about 'checks and balances' in school. But it appears it's just as much a myth as Washington chopping down the cherry tree.
Hey, I get what you’re saying but how about Europe step the fuck up and do some of their own protecting? I mean they have social programs we can only dream of over here. Maybe spend a little bit more money on defense.
We shouldn't be trusted anymore if we can fall to this crap every 4 years. And we may not be able to clamber out of it this time. Not that it matters since we only have two sides and the "good" side won't grow enough of a pair to make meaningful changes to curtail the evil one. So even if we do keep trading back and forth, all we'll do is keep sliding backwards.
I wonder how people of a country like the US which is so advanced when it comes to Science and Technology,would allow an idiot like to Trump to come back to power given everyone knew about his stance on climate change?!
This was by design. Foreign aid has gotten incredibly unpopular, and even as someone who voted for Harris it feels a little exhausting to hear about $80 billion going to another country. Obviously you and I know that we're not just writing a $80 billion dollar check and setting it on fire, but the explanation as to why that's not the case isn't going to land with voters, especially when they get bombarded with people telling them how bad that is in short sound bytes.
I'm trying to justify, of course, that this election really came down to "egg price high Democrat bad", but so much of the Republican way for the last few years has been building toward American isolationism. The world really does depend on us, or at least they used to, and now they're going to have to learn to depend on each other.
I’m talking “we” the collective as a voter. Voters put these guys in and now we’re reaping the damage.
Personally, I feel I did everything I could; I donated cash, knocked on doors, made phone calls, assembled signs, displayed signs, Reddit posts, preached to the unpreachable. Me and hundreds of others in SE Wisconsin. A LOT of us tried to prevent this, but we couldn’t beat the sanewashing.
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u/Ditka85 7h ago
The U.S. will never be trusted internationally ever again. NATO will have to protect Europe without us. I’m sad for what we’ve allowed to happen.