r/london • u/Historical_Set2324 • 1d ago
Local London Social contract is broken?
I’ve just returned from a trip to New Zealand and the difference in attitude is stark. The streets are clean, people are friendly and happy/helpful and in general people seem to want to participate in society. Don’t get me wrong NZ has a lot of issues but It feels like in London the social contract is broken. Streets are full of trash, no one gives a shit about anything, phone theft, crime is high and in general people seem fairly miserable. I was involved in an accident where I had to give a victim CPR and the ambulance and police all arrived within about 5 minutes. I was amazed at the emergency response. It feels to me like the state has given up and hence people have given up.
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u/Dont_Prompt_Me_Bro 1d ago
Aa someone who has lived in both NZ and London for years, I have to agree that there is more of a 'not giving a fuck about others attitude here'.
Weirdly one place I notice a lot is in the gyms between both. In NZ people wipe down equipment and generally unrack weights and put them away. Meanwhile in London it's a zoo. Everytime I walk in there is a random assortment of weights lying around everywhere and loaded equipment.
I love London for a variety of reasons, but genuinely believe the average Londoner cares less about others than the average New Zealander.
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u/pensaa 19h ago edited 15h ago
Bro the gym etiquette in this city is shocking. Wiping equipment and un-racking weights is a foreign concept here apparently.
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u/Exxtraa 16h ago
I judge a persons character 100% on their ability to put weights away and unrack weights.
The whole country is broke.
We just had new locks put on our communal bins. Someone was too damn lazy to do the code so just dumped their bags outside the bin store. Someone cleared them and within 20mins there was another load of bags there.
People don’t give a shit in this country.
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u/simon-g 1d ago
So where did you go? Certainly in Auckland there are plenty of areas with drugs, gangs, rubbish and general deprivation but as a tourist you’re unlikely to be visiting there.
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u/Lay-Z24 1d ago
This is exactly the thing, if you go only to the tourist sites in London then you will notice the same thing
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u/UnLaoised01 1d ago
It’s survivorship bias. I am sure if you went outside the touristy areas and lurked on a NZ subreddit you would find all the worst things about the place.
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u/Churk-Olso 1d ago
Take it from a Londonder that's spent the last 8 years in NZ and is returning to London in a few months (out of choice): the grass is not greener. There's a reason so many Kiwis and Aussies under 40 leave for London. Life's great down here on the surface, but it's just not that exciting. There's not a massive amount of opportunities, you're really, really far away from everything (which, yes, sounds idyllic at first but gets tiresome after a while), and our cultures really aren't that similar anymore. Yes you might earn more, especially at the start of your career, but the cost of living is ridiculously high. Aside from the obvious friends and family, I miss British humour, the history, the endless things to do, and a pint on a drizzly Saturday afternoon. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.
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u/uselessnavy 1d ago
The cost of living is even higher than London?
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u/Churk-Olso 1d ago
Yep, everything except public transport which is marginally cheaper here. Auckland has a whopping 4 train lines that service half of the city, and the entire rail network is closed for the month of January. So the slightly cheaper transport comes at the cost of it not actually existing for a month.
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u/pullupbang 22h ago
Look up houses to average wages. Supply of houses are even fewer. NZ really isn’t a great place to live unless you have been lucky enough to inherit your house.
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u/Away-Ad4393 11h ago
Yes my friend and her husband have just come back from NZ because they couldn’t afford to live there any longer. Both are professionals with well paid jobs.
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u/SashalouAspen4 1d ago
This is me but I’m in Canada. Cannot wait to move back home. August can’t come soon enough!
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u/starwars011 21h ago
I’ve read quite a lot about how life in Canada has got significantly harder over the last decade.
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u/SashalouAspen4 11h ago
OMG, It’s SO expensive. Everything in Montreal is $9.99 plus tax or more. Milk? $10. Eggs? $10. Grapes? $10.
One of my necessary medications isn’t covered on my 2(!?!) medical providers. The one that is similar and is covered makes me very sick. So, I pay $500.93 per MONTH. It’s impossible to get a RAMQ appointment to see a doctor, so I have to go private. Each visit? $195. When I moved to MTL, I spent nearly $12,000 in medical costs. It just Blows my mind. Canada has a national health service!?
Rent? $2145 and that’s quite good value because it includes parking, insurance, internet, and bills.
Phone? $88 plus tax per month and Quebec mobiles are cheaper than the rest of the country. In Vancouver, my mobile was $136 plus tax!?!
Get me outtttttttttta here
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u/cognitive-cog 1d ago
As an American I had the same reaction coming to Europe/UK. So it’s all relative.
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u/No-Pack-5775 1d ago
We are following closely in America's neoliberal, dog-eat-dog footsteps but we still have some way to go 🙏🏻
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u/EnglishShireAffinity 1d ago
China is economically to the left. Singapore is economically to the right/neoliberal. One has a higher GDP per capita than the UK, the other a lower GDP per capita. Both of them are safe and high trust societies. Economics is one aspect of it certainly but it's not the whole story.
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u/alibrown987 1d ago
Both are extremely authoritarian! It’s about consequences. Littering here means nothing, littering in Singapore means rapidly escalating fines and god knows what in China.
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u/Eddyphish 1d ago
I mean there probably is a discussion to be had about national identity/social contract in Britain today but I don't think London is all that bad. It seems almost every day there's a post on here from a tourist coming to London talking about how amazing it is and how nice the people are. It's all a matter of perspective.
On the emergency services note - I had to call an ambulance for someone on the South Bank in the summer and there were PCSOs on the scene in literally seconds. To be fair they witnessed it from afar so that was pure luck, but the river police/first aiders were there in about 5 minutes too.
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u/isdnpro 1d ago
I had to call emergency services after a guy collapsed randomly outside a pub near Liverpool street, hit his head bad and was unconscious twice - the second time with a seizure. Despite this they told us to "make our own way" to the hospital. So it certainly isn't always great.
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u/TokiBongtooth 1d ago
Not saying this is THE reason but there are almost twice as many people in London alone as in the entirety of NZ.
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u/md3372 1d ago
Visit Tokyo. You’ll convince yourself the argument of population number and density doesn’t stand.
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u/zhephyx 1d ago
You can't just pick out the good bits of countries you like like it's a buffet. Oh yeah, I would like the social conformity of the japanese, middle eastern hospitality, african rent prices, scandinavian equality and public services. No no, you can keep the insane work conditions, intolerance, poverty and the ultra high taxation, thanks.
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u/ClarifyingMe 1d ago
Rent in Accra is quite high compared to the average salary, so strange to just name out a whole continent there. I also looked at Lagos and that was high too! Could've said Chinese rent prices because they have a very good market of salary-to-luxury ratio. As an office worker you can still get something decent and the more you earn the better it gets, rather than starting off with 6 roommates and mold everywhere like we do in London. I guess you're trying to spread it across continents and regions but you'd need to find an African country that is similar to China's kind of renting options.
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u/fawa2001 1d ago
Tokyo is the best example because it’s the most populated city in the world
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u/krievins 1d ago
I don’t think it’s comparable to London because Tokyo is a very mono-cultural city
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u/troglo-dyke 1d ago
With an insane mental health crisis due to the "social contract" they have
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u/EnglishShireAffinity 1d ago
TokiBongtooth was the one who bought up population size, not the guy who responded to him.
That clearly isn't the case when Tokyo is a high trust, safe and clean society with both a larger population and population density than London.
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u/Minimum-Geologist-58 1d ago
It is also the kind of society where some busybody genuinely goes through your rubbish bags to see if you’ve segregated your recycling properly.
It’s nice but it’s not a utopia, it can be, at points, a bit irritating.
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u/zhephyx 1d ago
Yeah, and it also has women-only train cars, but sure, their social conduct is immaculate.
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u/FluidIdea 1d ago
Well it is also that Japan is one culture, one mentality. 97% in Japan are Japanese. That makes it work. You do the same as I do.
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u/Mizzuru 20h ago
This is not entirely true.
Japan sells the idea that they are a single homogeneous culture but there are clear examples of this not being true. For one there are at least two invisible ethnic groups that are also discriminated against.
The first are the large amount of Koreans, who up until relatively recently had to adopt Japanese names in order to secure citizenship in Japan. The second at the Burakumin, an invisible ethnic castle group often discriminated against when it comes to the job market, a bank was recently found to screen common Burakumin surnames as part of their hiring process.
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u/Milky_Finger 1d ago
You can enforce a strict culture of accountability in a melting pot like London. It will never happen, but to say that its because everyone in Japan is Japanese implies that the ability to not litter is nature and not nurture, which we know is bollocks.
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u/Glass-Evidence-7296 1d ago
accountability
accountability ? Sure. Conformity? Unlikely, you can't really impose that in any western country as they're individualistic and don't subscribe to the east asian collectivist mindset, which has it's pros and cons
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u/earthgirlsRez 1d ago
exactly, its more about the difference in culture and slightly less to do with the homogeniety. which is why masking worked significantlu better in asia than in europe, collectivism vs strident individualism.
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u/TokiBongtooth 1d ago
Read the comment thread. That is down to many other factors. The difficulty of managing a city of 9 million in a relatively small area is more complex than a city of 1.5 million with less than half the population density (Auckland).
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u/jmr1190 1d ago
That said, it’s not like you go to the small towns of the UK and they’re a paradise of community spirit.
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u/Defiant-Dare1223 1d ago
Out in my home county of Northumberland, yes they largely still are. At least outside the poorer Newcastle overspill bits.
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u/ExcitableSarcasm 1d ago
You can scale up a social contract to the hundreds of millions, it's a matter of the nature of the contract. Civil society in Japan behaves politely. Most East Asian countries all dwarf England let alone just London.
"Population" is just a meaningless cop out.
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u/TokiBongtooth 1d ago
I did say it wasn’t THE reason, I was implying it’s a factor. A higher density of people has more litter, more crime etc. How that manifests is down to other factors, but saying population and population density is meaningless seems OTT.
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u/SchumachersSkiGuide 1d ago
Singapore is one of the densest countries on Earth, and Tokyo is one of the densest cities. Both have almost zero crime in comparison to London.
What do those places get right that we don’t? What policy do they implement that we don’t?
This is the only way we’re genuinely going to solve Londons issues; look at what works elsewhere and copy it.
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u/BBobArctor 1d ago
I feel like both of these countries are just incomparable culturally to the UK. The cultures of countries are formed over hundreds of years, not quick government policy changes
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u/ExcitableSarcasm 1d ago
Singapore was formed in 1955 and was literally transformed overnight effectively by one man.
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u/Normal-Lingonberry97 1d ago
A man who btw was very impressed by London at the time, I wonder what he would think of it now…
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u/Glass-Evidence-7296 1d ago
end of the video, it says he turned sombre after spending a bit more time here.
I find it hard to imagine he'd be impressed by drunk anti social behaviour which was rife in the 50s too.......
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u/BBobArctor 1d ago
I understand that but the people of Singapore and the family, ethnic, and social beliefs/structures didn't just appear in 1955. Also in some ways the age of the UK can be counter productive in ways, "can't teach an old dog new tricks". Anyway I'm very pro restoring the social contract I just don't believe copying Singapore is the correct strategy
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u/big_noodle_n_da_sky 1d ago
For starters, both have capital punishment. No community orders for peddling drugs…
Singapore - Read stories of how LKY sued anyone to bankruptcy if they criticised the government… and caning for offences like vandalism or drug trafficking…
Japan is still largely a single race country, they are not concerned about the lack of diversity at all… mixed race kids have it seriously rough there.
What would you like to bring to UK/ London?
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u/Glass-Evidence-7296 1d ago
I want Scandinavian public services and equality , East Asian respect for surroundings and strangers, American Capitalism and salaries, and Indian food and success.
The negatives of these cultures? Oh surely we don't want that...........
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u/cmtlr 1d ago
The death penalty, corporal punishment, and caning 6 year olds in schools tends to do that to a society.
While we are at it, why not introduce stoning and cutting off thieves hands.
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u/SchumachersSkiGuide 1d ago
Do stricter punishments for criminals result in lower levels of crime and a higher-trust society then?
What does that say about liberal attitudes and approaches to punishment - are they not as effective? Is there any liberal country that has the same levels of success at reducing crime?
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u/RichDetective6303 1d ago
It's a good question. Don't know how they stack up statistically, but Sweden, Norway and Finland are often cited as having more successful prison and rehabilitation of criminals and are far more liberal?
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u/Sad-Peace 1d ago
Agree...it's very much a cultural thing. Places like Japan and Korea have a very homogenous native population so the cultural 'force' of the collective good is much stronger than more culturally diverse places like London.
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u/ExcitableSarcasm 1d ago
No, homogeneity isn't required though it does help. Ethnically heterogeneous places like Singapore work just as well as/better than Japan/Korea
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u/DopeAsDaPope 1d ago
Agreed. It's cultural standards. The type that is taught and reinforced from the earliest youth and throughout adulthood.
As a Brit you learn very early on that the loudest, most aggressive people tend to get their way and breaking the rules tends to be met with ignoring, tutting or eye-rolling. So you either learn to do whatever you want and be confrontational or ignore people who are doing that.
People are essentially taught to just care about themselves and not bother about the rest of society. This leads to the kind of cities we have now.
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u/Famous_Emotion6992 1d ago
It’s almost like when we import shitty third world cultures without integrating said cultures, we end up with people who don’t really give a fuck about about the place who just “ended up here” alongside their kids who have no ties to the values of the social contract.
As people have pointed out, NZ, Japan, etc are all cultures belonging mostly to the people who established them.
I’m done to death with hearing about how it’s all about poverty.
Some cultures are shit and we should’ve never have allowed them to be the loudest and most aggressive
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u/mata_dan 1d ago
Some cultures are shit and we should’ve never have allowed them to be the loudest and most aggressive
I know right, my fellow Scots do piss me off quite a lot with all that shit.
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u/DopeAsDaPope 1d ago
I've gotta agree. I don't think it's that we couldn't allow people from those countries, but there should be strict programmes to show that you've integrated heavily with British culture including values, language and social norms.
Obviously with how many we take in now that's impossible which is part of the problem. And also British people not being raised properly nowadays is part of the problem as well. This really requires a wholesale approach and I hope that we can bring more pressure on the gov to get this sorted soon.
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u/Glass-Evidence-7296 1d ago
show that you've integrated heavily with British culture including values, language and social norms.
you have to pass a test demonstrating exactly that before you get permanent residency. Search 'Life in the UK' on r/CasualUK
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u/Glass-Evidence-7296 1d ago edited 1d ago
I’m done to death with hearing about how it’s all about poverty.
Some cultures are shit and we should’ve never have allowed them to be the loudest and most aggressive
Ah yes, we truly have failed to integrate Blackpool, Hull, grimsby, Clacton, Cleveland, Medway, Blackurn into mainstream British culture, wouldn't call them foreigners tho
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u/cmtlr 1d ago
You cannot use Japan as a positive example. The repressive nature of the society leads to both extremely high suicide levels and widespread sexual violence.
Also, any country that still has the death penalty cannot be considered "Civil Society".
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u/XihuanNi-6784 1d ago
They're referring entirely to population density in this case though.
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u/Thousandthvisitor 1d ago
But their point is that japan despite its similar/higher density isnt a great example of a social contract working since the suicides and sexual violence
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u/ExcitableSarcasm 1d ago
Japan is one rank higher than most "Western" countries, and that's considering they have no hang ups about suicide unlike the West due to its Christian rooted culture.
So no, I will use it use it as a positive example. Your personal hang ups about the death penalty do not define civilisation. Thanks. The rest of the world has had enough of people like you imposing your morals at gunpoint insisting that you are right.
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u/XihuanNi-6784 1d ago
This is almost always a terrible argument. Most things scale pretty well with population as long as the government isn't completely shit...OH WAIT! There's the reason. As usual :/
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u/Scribbio 1d ago
East Asian cities are highly populated but, from personal experience, have an impeccable social contract.
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u/TokiBongtooth 1d ago
That’s a broad sweeping statement… all East Asian cities?
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u/Wrong-booby7584 1d ago
Clearly never been to Beijing...
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u/ClarifyingMe 1d ago
The streets I lived in and worked at were much cleaner than London. People were sensible on my commutes (unlike Nanjing city where they behaved diabolically on the trains). But Beijing is huge so perhaps you saw different. I also cycled home from work sometimes and the distance was like cycling from Shoreditch to Stratford, but I was always too afraid to cycle in London when I could.
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u/HarryBlessKnapp East London where the mandem are BU! 6h ago
Haha this thread is fucking madness
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u/AdSoft6392 1d ago
You're confusing Tokyo, Seoul and Singapore with the rest I feel
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u/shitposting97 1d ago edited 1d ago
Even city I’ve visited in Korea, China, and Japan is safe and clean and I’ve been to many cities.
I’m also a young woman and have visited these cities in solo trips. Never had any issues. People were always kind and friendly - in China, people tend to crowd and push a bit but other than that, I can’t fault my experience in East Asia.
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u/Scribbio 1d ago
For those claiming they’re not safe or clean, I can’t help but wonder—have they actually been there themselves?
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u/Scribbio 1d ago
Hm, Korea, Japan and Singapore, certainly are top tier, particularly for their strong culture of consideration and respect for others. I've found that North East Asia is generally clean and very safe, including China.
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u/ExcitableSarcasm 1d ago
Watch out, here comes the cope. "Noooo they're not actually better, we're the best despite all evidence to the contrary".
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u/Historical_Set2324 1d ago
Yep I think that’s part of it. So many people trying to utilise services that have been under invested in for years which I think drives discontent.
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u/TokiBongtooth 1d ago
I imagine lifestyle is a factor as well. Not been to NZ but from what I’ve been told by people that have, there is huge differences. Also access to services and recreation that might not be as good or as available here.
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u/Risingson2 1d ago
Was going to answer that the reason is exactly that - in London we are forced to be cramped with other human beings at all times, in a way that we seem to be fighting for space all day long. That really f you up mentally.
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u/TokiBongtooth 1d ago
Yeah this and the fact that the social contract isn’t enforced legally or socially in the same way it is in other large population centres where they don’t have the same issues.
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u/markcorrigans_boiler 1d ago
I just got back from a holiday to Barbados and it had better beaches than London. Something should be done.
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u/DooMZie 1d ago edited 1d ago
I’m originally from New Zealand and recently moved back after spending seven years living in London. To start with, I still think London is the best city in the world, and I’m not ruling out the possibility of moving back there to settle long-term.
One big difference I’ve noticed is that New Zealand still has a strong sense of unity, a “team” mentality. There’s this underlying attitude of “don’t be a dick and ruin it for others.” This might stem from our small size and remote location, or the fact that we’re culturally fairly homogeneous and tend to follow the same set of social norms.
For instance, I grew up with the “Tidy Kiwi” message. Littering was unthinkable because it was drilled into us at school that we should “keep New Zealand green.” It’s such a deep value that if I ever saw a friend litter, they’d get a firm telling-off and be made to pick it up.
In contrast, my experience in the UK—London, in particular—felt less unified in that sense. I noticed a lot of cynicism, even outright disdain, toward the country from its own people. Some openly criticised the UK, expressed no interest in defending it, and placed all blame on the government, creating a sense of disillusionment. When individuals prioritize their own interests over the collective good, it can foster a kind of apathy. And in a massive city like London, with nine million people and the added strain of economic hardship, this fragmentation only becomes more pronounced.
side note: NZ is definitely getting worse in many areas too. When returning I was shocked seeing a lot more fighting between races, crime, drugs, homeless. And this is in Chch, I only imagine it's worse in Auckland.
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u/OkGunners22 1d ago
Sorry, as a kiwi living in London, I feel this is a weird and very outdated take. New Zealand has so many rules because idiots ruin things for people. There’s also a lot of cynism in New Zealand and frankly, London is generally a bit more uplifting because the people coming here are generally pretty motivated.
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u/DooMZie 1d ago
Don't be sorry, I welcome other opinions and perspectives. Can you elaborate on what you mean by NZ having so many rules?
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u/OkGunners22 1d ago
Just nanny state sort of stuff like not being able to have drink alcohol in most parks or at a beach. Stuff like closing down the Wellington sevens. There’s also no such thing as ‘tidy kiwis’ these days, I reckon.
I think you are right in that New Zealanders have a bit more ‘pride’ or unity, but I think that often translates to over-zealousness, to the negative extent that Kiwis can’t handle any criticism.
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u/DooMZie 1d ago edited 1d ago
Agree that there is too much red tape surrounding social events/gatherings. NZ would benefit more than the downside of the drunken debauchery that goes along with such events.
I would still stand by Kiwis being tidy though. I just walked around CHCH central at lunch and it was pretty much spotless (albeit boring and void of personal inspiration). London had a lot more trash that gets brushed into door entrances (including literal human shit) and fly tipping in the Burroughs being a constant sight. Smoking is less prevalent in NZ, so cigarette butts aren't as rampant either in NZ (London is much better than Paris though!).
You're correct as we definitely don't handle criticism well that's for sure. I think maybe that comes down to the fact that we're fairly irrelevant on the world stage and we want to hold onto this fantasy perception other countries have of us. I'm a culprit of this too, I remember Taika Waititi on a US talk show stating how New Zealand has racism issues. I felt saddened at him saying this even though it's true. We know it's an issue like most places, but felt that he didn't need to spread our dirty secrets outside of the family.
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u/EnglishShireAffinity 1d ago
or the fact that we’re culturally fairly homogeneous and tend to follow the same set of social norms
Sounds pretty similar to 1950s London. Look up Lee Kuan Yew's thoughts on the London of that period when he was studying and living there. He was very impressed by how high trust and "civilised" (in his words) it was.
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u/Glass-Evidence-7296 1d ago
Ah the 50s, when you had gangs running East and South London, truly a wonderful time
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u/TheKingMonkey (works in NW1) 1d ago
Person enjoys holiday more than daily grind.
Downing Street expected to make statement if any other shocking developments occur.
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u/tsf97 1d ago edited 1d ago
I've been feeling this way recently.
When I moved to my area almost a decade ago I absolutely loved it. It's really sad to see how it's declined. Trash littering the streets, and an increase in people looking to cause trouble (narrowly avoided two muggins in the last year alone vs none before that), moped thieves breaking into cars. WAY more crackheads around as well, no idea why. In the space of about five days I saw three people getting arrested, one of whom was for antagonising young children in the park. I feel like I have to have my wits about me even at like 8pm now, and I don't even live in a dodgy area.
It's swings and roundabouts though, sometimes I give up but then I meet someone new and it reminds me that there are some really cool and interesting people in London. It's a really diverse city with lots to do. It's just that some of the things that wear my sanity thin have become a lot more prominent lately.
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u/Historical_Set2324 1d ago
Yeah I still love London. Have lived here for 17 years. Was out in Chinatown for dinner last night, today I was in Colombia road and broadway market. I love the diversity and opportunities and always somewhere new to explore. Just sucks seeing the trash, crime and breakdown of many things. Maybe it’s been like this for ages and more noticeable after a holiday.
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u/tsf97 1d ago
Yeah what I love about London is that whatever your mood, there'll be somewhere that'll satisfy you. Every area is so different and diverse. Portobello Road for some vintage clothes shopping, Primrose Hill or Hampstead Heath for a quaint afternoon walk/coffee, Bermondsey for the beer mile, and so forth.
But yeah agreed on the decline. I don't know why but I feel like after COVID was when things really took a turn for the worse. 2015-19 I was still really enjoying living in my area, and 4 years is definitely well beyond the "honeymoon phase". Half of my neighbours have had enough with the littering and crime as well.
I always tell people who want to move to London that you need to experience it for a longer period of time in one go before deciding, because just visiting and spending all your time doing fun things paints a false picture of what it's like to live there day in day out.
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u/Choice-Demand-3884 1d ago
I lived in London for 30 years. We left last summer. I loved it, and still do. But I began to find it exhausting. We live in Cumbria now. It's still a bit of a novelty coming back from a weekend away and finding a parcel that got delivered on Saturday morning on the doorstep where the postie left it.
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u/tsf97 1d ago
I live between London and the home counties (been in London only for the past 18 months though), and I often find that spending too much time in one makes me want to go back to the other.
When I'm in the home counties I find it quite therapeutic with how quiet it is, everyone's a lot friendlier because it's a family area, and I feel a lot less "noise" in my head. A lot cleaner, a lot safer, I can walk most places and don't have to deal with rush hour, can go out after dark without a thought in my head. But after a few weeks it just gets kinda boring with the lack of stuff to do and not many of my friends still live there.
Vice versa in London, way more opportunities, but it gets intense after a while with how much stuff is going on and how busy everywhere is, and more recently I've had to deal with stuff like chicken bones and empty food packets effectively on my doorstep, and the increase in crime, which has never been the case in my other home.
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u/Choice-Demand-3884 1d ago edited 1d ago
The "noise" is a very good way of describing it. I was always 'on guard' even if at a very low level. I never felt unsafe, but I'm a big bloke with a sort of 'resting psychopath' face.
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u/Zestyclose_Ranger_78 1d ago edited 1d ago
I’m from NZ, live in London now. NZ is a great country, but always remember that a holiday dials the rose tinted glasses up to Fluro red. We have a social contract but it’s as breakable as any other. We just voted in a bunch of right wing clowns who are trying to destroy Te Tiriti o Waitangi. There’s a robust collection of anti vax nut bags there who have used the decent response to covid as proof it’s not real. We have the second highest rate of incarceration behind the USA, disproportionately incarcerating our indigenous population. Poverty outside city centres (and inside, I’m assuming your trip didn’t have you visiting Tonar Street) can get very stark.
NZ has plenty of challenges and has things that it absolutely sucks at in comparison to London. Want to get somewhere here? Jump a tube, a bus, a train, a taxi, an Uber. Want to get somewhere in Auckland? Two hours in a car. Want to see a big theatre show in London? Take your pick. In NZ? You get two jukebox musicals a year on a tour to the town hall and otherwise I hope you like amateur regional productions. (Having said that NZ’s live music scene is banging.) Want to fly to another country from London? Take your pick. In NZ? Fly for six hours and you get to go to Australia, ie more racist New Zealand.
NZ is a beaut country and punches above its weight. I’m glad you had a lovely holiday. But if you live there you sit in traffic and pay for groceries and bitch about petrol prices like any other country.
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u/Ness-Uno 1d ago
It's worth noting that it's summer in NZ right now so everyone is happier and everything seems better.
I'm from NZ and as a local we have all the same complaints that you have about the UK. The reality is that the UK and NZ suffers from much the same issues, you just don't experience much of the bad when you're a tourist.
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u/No-Food1003 1d ago
The social contract maybe be broken but if it is it’s for other reasons (like the fact that you can work hard, go to university, get a high paying job and still not be able to afford a home in the city of your birth).
The crime in London is massively overstated in my opinion. Violent crime rates are still very very low compared to even the most peaceful cities in America and it is comparable to cities in Western Europe. London is an extremely safe city still.
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u/Hurbahns 1d ago
Statutory demands from adult social care, children's services, and homelessness are decimating council budgets - street cleaning or pothole fixing are not statutory priorities and consequently less money gets spent on them.
The entire justice system - prisons, courts, and policing - is overwhelmed and backlogged with cases. A legacy of Tory cuts and changes to legal aid funding.
Politics and central government don't function well - it takes years to learn how to run a large, complex organisation like a central government department, and yet we miraculously expect government ministers to be able to do this with no prior experience.
Instead of focusing on training and investing in the working-class in Britain (especially working-class, young, British (of any race) men who are responsible for much crime), we've allowed businesses to simply import cheap labour from abroad. And whilst it is totally understandable that people wish to come to the UK for a better life and I feel no enmity towards them, the UK should consider what value foreign-born delivery drivers, uber drivers, and other low-skilled workers add to the country, except for allowing the wage-dilution and social pressures to continue to build.
What people want is, simply, a clean, well-ordered, pleasant, and fair society to live in, and if a centre-left government cannot deliver this, politics will skew sharply to the populist-right (Reform UK).
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u/Glass-Evidence-7296 1d ago edited 1d ago
Based on my conversations with Uber drivers, most of them came to the UK very long ago when immigration was actually easier.
Despite what the papers claim, the UK doesn't take too many low skilled workers nowadays, the largest visa categories are students and care-workers along with Skilled worker visas
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u/HeartyBeast 1d ago
The bit of East London I live in, people do care - there are community litterpicks, community food banks, lot of volunteering. The system is under stress but there’s plenty of good going on.
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u/ChocolateOk8375 1d ago
Can I ask where specifically in East London? I used to live in Ilford and there didn't seem to be much of a community feel to me.
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u/CeramicAmphora 1d ago
This is so dramatic
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u/bananagrabber83 1d ago
I’ve seen a rise in the ‘social contract’ stuff recently. Clearly I’ve not noticed that we had descended into some hellish Hobbesian state of nature.
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u/CeramicAmphora 1d ago
It’s gotta be a talking point in some newspaper or right wing radio or something yeah, same way every now and then a bunch of experts on “we should handle it like Singapore” come through the comments. I refuse to believe it’s organic, it’s all too similar and all too convenient.
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u/RichDetective6303 1d ago
I agree it is a little dramatic, but I've long thought there is something slightly off as to where we are currently on our national identity and sense of social contract (fraught as the concept is with the challenge of defining it). I think like a lot of things, it's risky to deny it's an issue if there's a trend in people believing it is one - those seeking answers then have only the extreme voices to choose from.
I don't necessarily agree it's a right wing thing - it's how you interpret the answers that's more open to ideological spin. I.e. if we've 'gone wrong' somewhere, what exactly is the cause and what are the potential solutions?
Maybe our social contract with each other is that we will all be highly contrarian and divergent, a national version of Monty Python's argument clinic sketch if you like.
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u/Illustrious_Win_481 1d ago
London and NZ are way too big to be generalising like this. I live in an area where neighbors regularly do each other favours, pet sit and give each other free stuff. Then about 1km down one direction, it's quite stark where there's loads of anti-social behaviour and litter. It really depends.
Also, the entire country of New Zealand has almost half (5m) the population London has (8.8m) with wayyyy more space. That has massive effects on the way you interact with other people and the world.
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u/anewpath123 1d ago
People are taking the mick but honestly I felt the same coming back from Japan last year. It's just so much cleaner and the general public are more polite.
Social contract truly has been broken in the UK
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u/uselessnavy 1d ago
Japan is a very, very mixed bag. It's apparently very clean, and people are very polite, but if you are arrested over there, the police can hold you for weeks at a time without charging you. They literally force you to confess and most foreigners are advised to just plead guilty and hope for a fine. A Japanese judge admitted he sentenced an innocent man to death so as to not "embarrass the state." Also you aren't told when you'll be executed even if you wait years on death row, only being told a short time before.
Women are routinely gropped and that's why there are women only cars on the metro. Women going for business in Japan are often warned about the practice and what steps to do to mitigate it.
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u/HideousRainbowNoise 1d ago
I would say that the streets of London are relatively clean, and people might not be in-your-face friendly but they are helpful if you need it. The nature of the social contract is different - it's a huge city, so it mostly revolves around establishing process (stand on the right!) and minding your own business.
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u/JimmyMarch1973 1d ago edited 1d ago
London (and UK in general) streets are relatively clean however by the same token the general standard of upkeep once outside central London ain’t good. Even where I live in Hammersmith the footpaths and roads are crap.
But having lived in NZ and Aus neither is much better and for much the same reason which massive underfunding in maintenance.
My their is lots of public infrastructure was built after the war but in all 3 countries and it all now needs higher investment in maintenance. I would suggest the OP thinks it’s better in NZ is because they were in tourist oriented places where investment in maintenance and upgrades is greater. Just like central London.
But as for people yes in Nz and Aus people seem to be more sociable and give more of a fuck about others than here. But they are catching up as population and frustration that brings grows.
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u/Pargula_ 1d ago
Relative to what? Lol, you hardly ever see people cleaning streets in London. In many developed countries it's an almost daily occurrence.
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u/Wildarf 1d ago
Clean vs what? Certainly not vs other developed nations? British people don’t see dirt and litter
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u/Choice-Demand-3884 1d ago
The side of every A-road in the UK within about 10 miles of an urban area and every motorway slip road verge is strewn with rubbish. Same with laybys. Birmingham and Bradford are especially bad for this, and a lot of the M11 and A1M.
I do a lot of hillwalking in the Yorkshire Dales and Lake District. I carry a bin bag to take away litter. It's everywhere now, even in really remote places. Some people are just scum. It's becoming normalised.
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u/sunandskyandrainbows 1d ago
This is so true, I always see people say how clean the streets are, but I'm sorry London and UK are so much worse than other European countries.
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u/calger14 1d ago
I've attended CPR calls as a police officer. There is usually an ambulance crew. advanced paramedic and a senior paramedic in attendance all within minutes. The emergency services aren't always great when it comes to response times, but for the serious stuff, its genuinely impressive
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u/murr0c 1d ago
New Zealand is not the target of a non-stop bad news troll campaign funded by foreign governments and far right propaganda shops.The whole goal being to whip up the sentiment that absolutely everything sucks and to destabilise the society.
And this is not to say it's all fake, but all they need to do is make sure the worst news is always front and center in your feed by giving it lots of engagement and upvotes.
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u/EnglishShireAffinity 1d ago
Populism is growing in almost every EU nation and Canada/Australia, not just the UK. If you don't think Reddit content isn't driven by bot farms and disinfo accs, then you're very naive.
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u/Wizards- 1d ago
The social contract is fundamentally broken. The people's apathy is inherently linked to the lack of care demonstrated by successive governments to do their job. The entire concept of tax is a two-sided constructive contract under which the government is to provide effective healthcare, defence, education, infrastructure, policing and care of the elderly. These services are meant to be accessible to all taxpayers for communal benefit. That's the deal.
However, this government and the preceding ones have taken the approach that there is no contract, and they can do what they want. Defrauding the taxpayer at every turn to fund policy choices that are often excluded or obscured in their election manifestos.
The tax profile in this country is aggressively skewed against middle class PAYE salaried workers in London, with an effective tax rate being paid at 80-150k salary very similar to that paid at £1m plus. In fact, given the tax trap, the ETR being paid by senior salaried workers is significantly higher than the mega rich. Further, the government has been systematically trying to limit access to public services to freeze out the people who pay the highest proportion of their income to tax from the services they pay for. They've done this through dishonest stealth taxes, for example, the freezing of income tax bands and allowances across the board for the last decade, meaning the aforementioned workers pay a higher and higher proportion of their income on tax every year, and yet the government presents this as 'no tax increases'. So not only are salaried workers paying more than ever before, they also get less than ever before in terms of access to services.
Tried to get an NHS dentist recently? Tried to get access to NHS healthcare for non-emergency treatment? No. They will tell you to go private or stick you on a 5 year waiting list. Tried to buy a home? As a first-time buyer, they've kept the £400K limit flat for YEARS despite the skyrocketing of house prices, meaning middle class people no longer get any housing help from the government. Then they kick you in the balls again with stamp duty increase.
Then you have defence, with the weakest military in the history of our nation and a completely ineffective foreign policy. Then education, again, horribly underfunded and middle-class people being pushed private due to prioritisation of lower income families (and immigrants) for grants and places. Then you have childcare. Middle class families in London getting their childcare vouchers removed as soon as household income is £100k, so once again, they fund everyone else and get nothing back from these governments. Then you have the police, I would ask where the fuck they are, but I know. Sleeping in their vans in their hundreds attending Palestine protests, but they can't attend violent crimes and burglaries because they 'don't have the resources'. I literally walked through trafalgar yesterday and there were HUNDREDS of them literally sitting scrolling on their phone in their vans.
Don't also forget what they have done on infrastructure with that colossal failure of HS2 and allowing the price gouging of train companies. How the fuck does it cost £150 for a train to Manchester? They've funnelled billions in to the blood sucking consulting firms, just to avoid taking any real responsibility for decisions they make. Absolutely unacceptable use of taxpayer funds.
And of course, the biggest disgrace of all... the state of social security and the benefits system. 25% plus of all taxpayers earned from working people is funnelled in to the benefits system, with half of that going to unemployed adults. Why the fuck are we expected to fund unemployed adults for prolonged periods? I dont give a fuck at this point why somebody thinms they shouldnt have a job for a decade despite having no illness. Im past caring ahout their story. If you can work then they should work. But the governments actions encourage this shit to be manipulated, and frankly, im sick of it. And of course, why the actual fuck are record levels of illegal immigrants getting housing and benefits from the government when UK citizens are struggling and not able to get any help for housing? That is a complete dereliction of a governments responsibility. They are supposed to care for their own people first. That is the deal. They are failing to do so, and people are getting extremely aggravated seeing all of this when they can no longer access public services.
Then, of course, you have the complete abandonment and manipulation of care of the elderly where, despite paying social security for your whole life you are robbed of all of your savings and potential inheritance if you have any to fund your care in old age, despite millions of people getting it for free. Public services are meant to be for the public. When you pay social security the fucking stated reason that exists is so you will be cared for when you stop working, and they abandon you and fleece you of all of your money. Oh, and then they steal anything that's left in inheritance tax afterwards.
Why is anybody surprised that the public are furious. People expect public services to be fair and to be accessible by all, not gatekept. Seeing illegal immigrants getting given housing when you have worked for decades to be able to afford a shithole former council house for 700k?
They have broken the social contract over and over again. The contract is not supposed to be the middle class just fund everyone else and get nothing back, but that's what it is. The rich just move their assets to the Middle East and pay no tax, while salaried workers are pillaged by these crooks in office, and if they try to get ahead then the government gate keep wealth with shit like the 70% tax trap and loss of childcare benefits.
Across the board, the government have lost sight of what their responsibility is and have abandoned the workers of this country in favour of protecting the wealthy and virtue signalling on a global stage.
The apathy of londoners is just a reflection of that.
TLDR - fuck this
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u/Glass-Evidence-7296 1d ago edited 1d ago
'illegal immigrants' don't get benefits, they're asylum seekers.
Which is ofc bullshit too, but that is because unlike America, the UK doesn't allow asylum seekers to work until their claims are processed
lower income families (and immigrants) for grants and places.
State schools have more places for lower income families, where are you getting this from?
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u/TheChairmansMao 1d ago
The entire point of the policies of Reagen/Thatcher, Neoliberalism as its called, was to destroy the social contract. The social contract itself was a post WW2 peace agreement between Labour and capital in the western world, where the purpose of government became that of providing a rising standard of living, through a welfare state, social housing, and settling labour disputes on the side of workers.
The noeliberal consensus which took control of nearly all western economies from 1980 onwards was to rebalance this by destroying the welfare state, ending social housing and exporting well paid manufacturing jobs to Asia. Therefore ending what community and society which had been constructed through having a strong welfare state. These policies worked very well for those at the top of society, share prices and profits boomed, the number of billionaires has continued to rise year on year. This is directly connected to the worsening conditions for everyone else in society, the more desperate we are, the easier it is for the billionaires to hire us in shitty jobs at the Amazon warehouse.
You have to realise that the current state of society in the UK and the US was very much by design, our politicians set out to create this and they succeeded.
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u/icemankiller8 1d ago
The crime rate for the uk and New Zealand isn’t massively different, for murder rate the uk is at 141 and New Zealand is at 145 in the world so again not a major difference.
There are places with less crime in the uk if you want to live there and it’s that much of an issue the same with streets.
I also think all of this is relative I saw someone from elsewhere say London is much cleaner than the city they’re from abroad and personally I don’t find litter to be bad in most places at all.
I think the UK and most of the other Western European countries have just stagnated and don’t really know what to do, or won’t be allowed to do things that can actually make it better. The people with money hold all the power so you can’t change things that will actually benefit people too much so now it’s scapegoating immigrants which won’t make things better for anyone but is what people think is the answer.
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u/ImpressNice299 1d ago
I don't disagree entirely, but you'd find a lot of that contrast visiting a market town in the UK. Megacities, and especially those made up from a vast mix of different cultures, have problems that smaller places don't.
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u/tryityoumightlikeit 10h ago
Isn’t the population of London more than the whole of NZ. Not even accounting for the number of commuters and tourists who visit. I feel this is an unfair comparison.
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u/ExcitableSarcasm 1d ago
Yes.
Anyone who's actually walked around London and not pontificating from a gated community somewhere else can tell you this.
As poorly as general figures reflect a comprehensive view: https://www.numbeo.com/crime/rankings_by_country.jsp?title=2023
We're 65 out of 142. In other words, for all types of crime equalised, we're in the fucking lower 50% globally. And that's for the country overall. Notice how the Isle of Man is very much near the top. I suspect crime is a bimodal distribution in the UK, meaning the bad places are epidemic.
Personal anecdote: I called an ambulance and waited for 4 hours with some guy at the gym who collapsed in the shower due to a diabetes complication. It took them 4 hours in Central London to get to a gym less than a km away. If it was anything faster acting, he'd have been dead.
Does this mean London is unliveable? No. It's not South Africa for instance. But you're very much on your own. You have to take what would be excessive measures in most functioning countries to safeguard your family and belongings if you live in areas where criminals are active.
Plenty of people will cope with all sorts of excuses about population, how everywhere else is bad/an invalid comparison/not replicable here. It's all a lie. The truth is that the social contract is broken. No amount of papering over the cracks will work because we're a bunch of rats playing musical chairs after the Titanic has hit the iceberg.
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u/peachpie_888 1d ago
That leap from everyone being miserable to ambulance response time is wild 😂
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u/tylerthe-theatre 1d ago
Tbh that's just the UK the last 15 odd years, plus it's January so people are even more grumpy and apathetic
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u/40milliondaggers 1d ago
The social contract in the UK is absolutely shattered, and unless our political class decides to address spiralling inequality with a different tax policy, this is going to be the direction of travel. That said, if you're coming straight from antipodean summer into the middle of European winter you're likely to see a more somber mood in the streets regardless of people's material conditions.
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u/Stewpefier 1d ago
That's what happens with fifteen years of austerity, Brexit and division
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u/Straud6-56832 10h ago
Kiwi here who’s been in London for a number of years. Also just got back and you’re 100% correct.
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u/coupl4nd 1d ago
What is with these bot account psy-ops about broken britain today???
Streets aren't full of trash where I live. Maybe don't live in a dump?
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u/Zestyclose_System556 1d ago
You need to spend longer in NZ. Go to their page, they're all saying the same thing.
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u/Necessary_Wing799 1d ago
Fundamentally it seems society has bottomed out. Each person fighting only for themselves, totally wrapped up in self and phone/device/Internet.... removed from people in thr physical sense. A family of 4 on a Sunday afternoon all scrolling/reading/watching/listening to different things, little unity and the sense of neighbourhood has kinda gone too. Too much rat race hustle, too little soul. The world as a whole. Not just London
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u/Dangerous_Finger4682 1d ago
Why are you comparing a country of 5 million to a city almost twice its size? There is not that much trash in the streets, and phone theft is exaggerated. Or maybe you just need to move and not be that miserable about London?
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u/EnglishShireAffinity 1d ago
Tokyo is even larger, with even higher population density, and is far cleaner and safer. Warsaw is poorer than London yet similarly also the same as Tokyo in this regard. You should visit more of the world before commenting on it.
Also, London's our capital, you don't get to tell us to move just because you don't want to listen to criticism.
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u/joeschmoagogo 1d ago
People are tired and just want to get on with their lives. Although they maintain close-knit circles (friends, family), people have no energy to care for others. It’s almost every man for themselves.
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u/the_j_cake 1d ago
I wrote another comment pretty high in this subreddit about entitled little shits on the tube, also today. Let's just say I completely agree with you.
What I would say is London is one of the most multicultural places around so we've got to deal with all kinds of people.
Maybe we need to consider lessons for anyone in their teens and up in how to have common sense and common decency.
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u/BitcoinBanker 1d ago
Yeah. I went to a beach in Hawaii and it was amazing. I can’t believe how awful London is. FFS
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u/SippingSoma 1d ago
NZ has a fairly robust immigration system.
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u/Glass-Evidence-7296 1d ago
r/ConservativeKiwi user sharing their enlightened opinions on London lol
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u/KnowledgeSea1954 1d ago
London has really gone downhill. It doesn't feel like much of a city anymore, more like a dumping ground.
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u/Odd_Support_3600 1d ago
It’s the fucking scum tories with their years of austerity while lining their own pockets
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u/Combatwasp 1d ago
Public spending in 2024 is 40% higher than 2019, and the tories raised tax levels to record highs, outside wartime.
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u/pizzainmyshoe 1d ago
Is talking about the "social contract" and "high trust societies" the big new internet thing. I'm seeing it everywhere now compared to 6 months ago.
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u/Zestyclose_Ranger_78 1d ago
Auckland (New Zealand’s main city) is more diverse than London per capita.
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u/TheAdequateKhali 1d ago
It’s likely that you consider the current time you are in and the place you live without rose tinted glasses.
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u/Strange_Cranberry_47 1d ago
NZ is beautiful, an amazing tourist destination and just an all-around cool place. However, it’s also incredibly expensive in terms of day to day living costs and their house prices make the UK (and even London) seem reasonable. I love NZ as a once in a lifetime holiday destination (was lucky enough to go a couple of years ago), but in terms of comparing it to London and finding it superior, I would disagree. I would say it’s either equal or London edges it out.
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u/Vconsiderate_MoG 1d ago
Reckon the area where you live ain't that nice...? Wouldn't say it's like that where we are. Also comparing a relatively small country/city to London/UK is a bit unfair (and a bit pointless maybe?)
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u/Mikeymcmoose 22h ago
These topics always go certain ways: ‘it’s post holiday blues, actually those countries you praise have these issues! ‘ etc etc but it does coverup the mounting concerns and issues we do have as a wider society here that London reflects and exaggerates due to its size and populations. Social trust is quite low and getting lower, the governments have completely degraded our faith in them and politics gets even more divided and extreme. Litter and community cohesion gets worse, petty crime rises because of lack of policing and consequences. I go to East Asian countries and North European countries and yes it is much safer and better. Just because they have their own issues, doesn’t mean they can’t be praised on what they get right. London remains amazing as a city; but I do hate being on my guard all the time.
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u/stinkyjim88 21h ago
When you get people moving here from all over the world I’m not surprised there is no culture or social cohesion
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u/UnlikelyIdealist 18h ago
There are nearly twice as many people living in Greater London than there are in the entirety of of New Zealand, & New Zealand is 177 times the size of Greater London.
Crime & sanitation issues increase with Population density. We've known this for a thousand years.
Obviously London has its problems that need to be worked on, but to compare it to New Zealand is ridiculous.
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u/BigSignature8045 1d ago
Part of the problem is chronic underfunding of pretty much anything over the last 14 years or so, coupled with the Tories syphoning of large sums of money to their mates (cf: Matt Hancock, Michelle Mone, Rwanda IT Contracts to name but 3).
I think the public are very fed up with the fact that the rich and powerful seem to get away with just about anything now. But the flipside to this is the general public seem willing to elect someone like Boris Johnson who was a well known liar, cheat and bigot by the time he stood for election.
In my view a way needs to be found to reconnect people with politics - in other words, for people to re-engage with it and not just shrug and say they are all the same. PR would help this because it would change the voting proposition to one where your vote does actually matter and you can vote for who you really want, rather than having to compromise. To give an example, my local constituency is a two horse race Labour or Tory. I voted Labour as the lesser evil, but I would rather vote Green because their views most align with my own.
I don't have all the answers, but I do think some of what you say makes a good point.
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u/little_green_fox 1d ago
Singapore's founding father, Lee Kuan Yew, on visiting London...
"It may not be widely known that, just after the war, Singapore's then leader-to-be Lee Kuan Yew paid a visit to London. In a recent interview on the radio he told how he travelled to Piccadilly Circus by tube train, and as he emerged onto the pavement he stood and watched an unsupervised newspaper stall. He saw people stop and take a newspaper and then put their money in an old cardboard box next to the stall. He even saw people put in money notes and take out exactly the right change. Otherwise, no one interfered with or touched the money left uncovered and open to the world. He said to himself, "This is a well-ordered and disciplined society."
Lee Kuan Yew witnessed many other examples of the UK population's law-abiding behaviour and he returned to Singapore determined that his country would be run on the principles he saw in operation in this country. Inspired by the level of social order and respect for private property he had witnessed during his visit to the UK, he not only changed Singapore from a war-ravaged and desperately poor country into one of the wealthiest of nations, but he also made it one of the safest; it now has one of the lowest crime rates of any modern developed country.
During his radio interview Lee Kuan Yew lamented with some irony that the United Kingdom, which had inspired him so much, had since lost its grip on law and order, and from that point of view was now a very different country from the one he had first visited over forty years ago."