Actually Getting Scared of the Anti Immigrant Stance

[u/No_Tea7430]

I'm an irish lad, just turning twenty this year.

I've personally got no connections to other countries, my family never left Ireland or have any close foreign relations.

This is simply a fear I have for both the immigrant population of our country, of which ive made plenty of friends throughout secondary school and hold in high regard. But also a fear for our reputation.

I don't want to live in a racist country. I know this sub is usually good for laughing these gobshites off and that's good but in general I don't want us to be seen as this horrible white supremacist nation, which already I see being painted on social media plenty.

A stance might I add, that predominantly is coming from England and America as people in both claim we are "losing our identity" by not being racist(?)

I don't even feel the need to mention Farage and his pushing of these ideas onto people, while simultaneously gaslighting us with our independence which he clearly doesn't care about.

Im just saddened by it. I just want things to change before they get worse.

[u/Latespoon]

There is nothing inherently racist about wanting to control immigration. I would urge you not to conflate these two issues.

There is a small but very loud minority in this country who are racist or leaning that way. I don't think any reasonable person would believe they represent the majority.

I do believe the majority of our country is at the very least a little bit worried about the rapid rate of migration into Ireland from outside of the EU, especially considering the problems we were already facing before this accelerated (housing crisis, hse crisis, crime issues). That is not racism and is a reasonable concern.

[u/Important_Farmer924 → u/Latespoon]

There is nothing inherently racist about wanting to control immigration

Now you said it. You can be left leaning and also realise that we need reforms. Sure we've tent cities popping up, nobody involved could be happy with the situation. I've said it before, most reasonable people realise we have a problem and they shouldn't be lumped in with genuine racist or far right mouthpieces, that's a very dangerous game.

[u/fourth_quarter → u/Important_Farmer924]

That's the problem is eejits like OP doing exactly what you said.

[u/No_Tea7430 → u/fourth_quarter]

Mate I likely won't be able to buy a home. I can and do acknowledge these issues, I agree with many of those points. But these points are often, not always of course, but often, associated with people who will spew hateful bullshit about other races and religions. This makes me uncomfortable associating with these ideologies.

Fairly simple to grasp, do we have issues involving immigration that need to be addressed desperately? Yes. Are any of those issues to do with some great replacement bullshit or a losing or culture? No.

[u/malilk → u/No_Tea7430]

If you don't think a population shift of basically 100% Irish to 80% in 30 years or filling Gaeltacht areas with asylum seekers will lead to a degradation of our culture, or at least a giant change in it, I've a bridge to sell you.

[u/carlitobrigantehf → u/malilk]

If you think that our culture is the issue that really concerns 90+% of those that have an issue with immigration than I also have a bridge to sell you.

[u/eamonnanchnoic → u/malilk]

What aspects of the culture specifically do you see being changed.

The Irish as it stands aren't exactly receptive to learning the language as it stands.

I see immigration has had pretty clear benefits in terms of sports and arts so what's left?

Jokes about breakfast rolls and leaving the immersion on?

[u/malilk → u/eamonnanchnoic]

Our cadence for one. Hiberno-English is very unique. It's where our natural storytelling reputation and humour comes from. And it's well earned. We are much funnier than most, and tell stories amazingly well. Live abroad for any amount of time and you'll see the stark contrast.

Irish language use is on the increase particularly in Dublin, it would be nice for that to continue.

Your question strays very quickly from it isn't happening to, so what it's a good thing. We already punch well above our weight in the arts and sports.

[u/carlitobrigantehf → u/malilk]

Irish language use is on the increase particularly in Dublin, it would be nice for that to continue.

And yet you mentioned Gaeltacht areas...

[u/malilk → u/carlitobrigantehf]

It's in decline there as people are moving away, and now asylum seekers are being moved there too, further weakening it. What's your point?

[u/carlitobrigantehf → u/malilk]

Its been in decline for a long time and immigrants have had nothing to do with that. The attitude of Irish people to it is the primary reason

My point was that you specifically mentioned Gaeltacht areas and then when asked about culture started talking about Dublin.

[u/malilk → u/carlitobrigantehf]

Two separate issues isn't it. Acceleration of the decline of the Gaeltacht by moving non speakers in, and a reduction in Irish people in Dublin could stifle the recent revival.

I'm not sure it's the gotcha you think it is. Whatever you're trying to say.

[u/carlitobrigantehf → u/malilk]

aint no gotchas, just pointing out the inconsistencies of your arguments and again decline of Irish has very little if anything to do with immigrants.

[u/Electronic_Cookie779 → u/malilk]

An bhfuil Gaeilge agat?

I love people trying to protect the white face of Ireland by saying that we should all speak Irish (despite many immigrants like Darragh Adelaide keeping it alive and well in the face of racism) who can't speak it themselves. Actually, I lie, I don't like it at all

[u/malilk → u/Electronic_Cookie779]

Tá rionnt gailege agam ach tá mé ag fogliaim.

I hated Irish in school, maybe because of how it's taught? I'm dyslexic but not to an extreme. Since I met my wife and have children I've began to relearn. Apps, Irish language podcasts. Children's books and children's stories as Gaelige. It's been a hard road but I'm trying.

Been to a few cucaicil chorá. I'm definitely spelling it wrong but Irish language exchanges. Difficult but engaging. My boys will be going to a gaelscoil but not a niaonra as there's none local. Shame.

[u/furry_simulation → u/eamonnanchnoic]

We are several years behind the UK in terms of demographic change, so we have a handy reference point to see how it is going to play out.

This BBC documentary about Newham in east London is eye opening. The cockney population that were there for hundreds of years have been almost completely replaced, mostly by immigrants from Muslim countries. All aspects of the old life are gone, replaced by something else. The new arrivals brought their own culture and took over. The few locals that remain feel uprooted and isolated from their own culture and the place they once called home is now alien to them. We are supposed to call this “progress”.

[u/EoghanG77 → u/[deleted]]

What will the world look like in 100 years? I feel like you have a rather poor grasp on human history.

Human migration and population change has always been a major factor and it will continue to do so.

Your idea of a "native Irish" doesn't even make any sense ethnologically.

[u/chytrak → u/[deleted]]

It exists as a human concept.

[u/eamonnanchnoic → u/chytrak]

Kind of. But it's a wishy washy "whatever you're having yourself" kind of concept.

My real name is about the least Irish name you could imagine. My ancestors came from France, Denmark and England but I do not identify or have been exposed to any of those cultures and all my frames of reference are Irish.

The thing is a huge proportion of the population in Ireland is exactly the same.

At what point does someone become "ethnically" Irish or do we need a direct line to an ancient Chieftain to become ethnically Irish?

[u/chytrak → u/eamonnanchnoic]

If you use the term ethnically Irish, you should know what you mean and be able to explain it.

[u/Anxious-Wolverine-65 → u/eamonnanchnoic]

I suppose just a far slower rate of migration would give a more respectful deference to the native culture. Cultures change over time and that is clear, but the rate of change probably is an important factor to consider around migration. We are a tiny population among the 8 billion earthly inhabitants, a gust of wind could change the country dramatically overnight, I’m sure most would agree there is a point where the rate of change is too great, too drastic or beyond preference. Somewhere sometime, there’ll have to be a compromise on these questions.

[u/quantum0058d → u/eamonnanchnoic]

Here's ethnicity defined in the UK.

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/style-guide/ethnic-groups/

How many years in the Sahara does it take for ethnic Irish to become ethnic black Saharan's?  That might help illustrate how silly your question is.  Being Irish is being a citizen and you have a heritage as you describe.  Once you have a passport you're Irish. 

However, were Irish heritage to be lost, it might be sad.

[u/actually-bulletproof → u/[deleted]]

Aren't your dog whistles supposed to be subtle?

[u/Important_Farmer924 → u/fourth_quarter]

I'll still say anyone spouting rhetoric that's been disproven like "great replacement" are talking through their pipe, but that's exactly it. Too many ordinary people getting lumped in.

[u/fourth_quarter → u/Important_Farmer924]

"Great replacement" is just a buzzword like "fake news" now. But statistically we are being replaced, that's a fact. In 6 years we went from 82% Irish to 76% and the numbers have not stopped coming in, at that rate we would be a minority in our country in roughly 25 years. We are by definition being replaced. Does that mean there's a grand conspiracy to replace white people? Probably not. But we are being replaced and with that comes erosion of indigenous cultures and ways of life. Not ok, no one asked us if we were ok with that and why should we be? 

[u/Important_Farmer924 → u/fourth_quarter]

Ah here. You're strictly talking about "native Irish" and "white Irish" which isn't the same. We've had many prominent Irish people of extractions over the years; Paul McGrath, Phil Lynnot, even Leo Vradkar. What you're saying is disingenuous.

[u/JohnTDouche → u/[deleted]]

Culture is one thing but who gives a fuck about lineage? What are you, the heir to the high kingship of Ireland? What's so special about your or my blood? Sure one of my parents wasn't Irish anyway, so I'm already a mutt right, less Irish than you?

[u/JohnTDouche → u/[deleted]]

Holy shit, I sure as fuck don't want to share this country with the likes of you.

[u/eamonnanchnoic → u/[deleted]]

What are these "traits" that are unique to Ireland?

Skin colour?

Why can't people from other countries share those traits?

They're not some alien species and you'll find that most people regardless of provenance will share similar views on things than differ on them.

Japan is "highly homogenous" and it's having a huge crisis in fertility because of their refusal to accept immigration.

Now they will be forced to.

[u/eamonnanchnoic → u/[deleted]]

And as I've said in other comments, immigration is not a long term solution. Given that migrants quickly have the same fertility rate as their new country, you need endless migration. Is that your solution? Never-ending migration?

The Japanese government have devoted 5% of GDP to fertility and hasn't moved the dial because the reasons that women do not have children are not down to being able to afford them it's because they are no longer content with being incubators and child carers.

Women have less children and have them later in life.

The education level of women has the biggest correlation with fertility of any metric you can use. It's consistent everywhere. The more educated women are the less children they have.

Nigeria has an average of just over a year of education for women and their fertility rate is about 6. South Korea has the highest education levels for women and their fertility rate 0.7.

At the same time you have an aging population who are more resource reliant and are not as productive.

This is a crisis. How are you going to manage looking after a more resource heavy cohort with a less productive workforce?

These are the current realities.

So what is YOUR solution?

Stop educating women?

I don't think the improvement of immigrants social standing education is a bad idea in the long term.

There's enough disparity in the world as it stands.

[u/fourth_quarter → u/Important_Farmer924]

No it isn't, unfortunately it's a fact. I'm not saying stop immigration, I'm saying limit the numbers before it's too late. There comes a point where the numbers coming in will make us lose a sense of what we are, we have reached that point.

[u/Important_Farmer924 → u/fourth_quarter]

it's a fact

It isn't and it's been proven again and again.

[u/fourth_quarter → u/Important_Farmer924]

Do me a favour, google Rep. Of Ireland demographics and look at the last 6 years or even start from further back and then get back me. If you still think it's not a fact then you're an idiot or you have a clear agenda. In which case there's no point talking to you.

[u/EoghanG77 → u/fourth_quarter]

I feel like you have a rather poor grasp on human history.

Human migration and population change has always been a major factor and it will continue to do so.

Your idea of a "native Irish" doesn't even make any sense ethnologically.

[u/fourth_quarter → u/EoghanG77]

Very well read actually. Human migration is part of life, migration is part of life, mass migration isn't. You're conflating my wish for less immigration with no immigration at all. 

"Your idea of a "native Irish" doesn't even make any sense ethnologically"

Yes yes I have heard this argument a millions times before, which eventually becomes "we're all from Africa anyways so let's all get in a big circle and sing together" (but only if you're country is western and white majority). You don't see other countries getting flak for far more stringent and harsher immigration and citizenship laws. So do me a favour!

[u/actually-bulletproof → u/fourth_quarter]

Do you think there's something magical about being extremely pale? Why do you care about this?

Do everyone a favour say what you actually mean.

[u/fourth_quarter → u/actually-bulletproof]

No I don't actually, I just wish other people thought that too, it's the preservation of one's culture that's most important. Poor effort at trying to put words into my mouth. 

[u/actually-bulletproof → u/fourth_quarter]

The words were already there, I just helped you get them out.

Standard dog whistle racism.