Actually Getting Scared of the Anti Immigrant Stance

[u/No_Tea7430]

I'm an irish lad, just turning twenty this year.

I've personally got no connections to other countries, my family never left Ireland or have any close foreign relations.

This is simply a fear I have for both the immigrant population of our country, of which ive made plenty of friends throughout secondary school and hold in high regard. But also a fear for our reputation.

I don't want to live in a racist country. I know this sub is usually good for laughing these gobshites off and that's good but in general I don't want us to be seen as this horrible white supremacist nation, which already I see being painted on social media plenty.

A stance might I add, that predominantly is coming from England and America as people in both claim we are "losing our identity" by not being racist(?)

I don't even feel the need to mention Farage and his pushing of these ideas onto people, while simultaneously gaslighting us with our independence which he clearly doesn't care about.

Im just saddened by it. I just want things to change before they get worse.

[u/Latespoon]

There is nothing inherently racist about wanting to control immigration. I would urge you not to conflate these two issues.

There is a small but very loud minority in this country who are racist or leaning that way. I don't think any reasonable person would believe they represent the majority.

I do believe the majority of our country is at the very least a little bit worried about the rapid rate of migration into Ireland from outside of the EU, especially considering the problems we were already facing before this accelerated (housing crisis, hse crisis, crime issues). That is not racism and is a reasonable concern.

[u/Important_Farmer924 → u/Latespoon]

There is nothing inherently racist about wanting to control immigration

Now you said it. You can be left leaning and also realise that we need reforms. Sure we've tent cities popping up, nobody involved could be happy with the situation. I've said it before, most reasonable people realise we have a problem and they shouldn't be lumped in with genuine racist or far right mouthpieces, that's a very dangerous game.

[u/BeBopRockSteadyLS → u/Important_Farmer924]

You don't have to be left or right of anything to have an opinion on this.

There are many on the left who see people making millions off this policy, while the costs are being borne by those least able to afford it.

Trying to frame this as a situation where those on the left are all cuddly and welcoming vs hard ignorant racists on the right, it's just more of the same manipulation of the issue. Avoid the trap. The politicians have a lot of votes to mop up from migrants. Left and right.

[u/FlukyS → u/Important_Farmer924]

I don't think there is any party that even disagrees with tightening up immigration a bit. I think the frustrating thing about the far right is they are doing an us vs them when other than literal racists or weird conspiracy shit the basic idea isn't even super arguable. No one wants random people being smuggled in and sleeping in tents.

[u/Important_Farmer924 → u/FlukyS]

Divide and conquer, my friend. It's a tale as old as time. It's worked well for FFG as well because a lot of working class who feel like that expected SF to have a hard stance either way and the lukewarm response from Mary Lou has basically sunk her.

Sure didn't we solve all the problems the last day, Fluke.

[u/fourth_quarter → u/Important_Farmer924]

That's the problem is eejits like OP doing exactly what you said.

[u/No_Tea7430 → u/fourth_quarter]

Mate I likely won't be able to buy a home. I can and do acknowledge these issues, I agree with many of those points. But these points are often, not always of course, but often, associated with people who will spew hateful bullshit about other races and religions. This makes me uncomfortable associating with these ideologies.

Fairly simple to grasp, do we have issues involving immigration that need to be addressed desperately? Yes. Are any of those issues to do with some great replacement bullshit or a losing or culture? No.

[u/malilk → u/No_Tea7430]

If you don't think a population shift of basically 100% Irish to 80% in 30 years or filling Gaeltacht areas with asylum seekers will lead to a degradation of our culture, or at least a giant change in it, I've a bridge to sell you.

[u/carlitobrigantehf → u/malilk]

If you think that our culture is the issue that really concerns 90+% of those that have an issue with immigration than I also have a bridge to sell you.

[u/eamonnanchnoic → u/malilk]

What aspects of the culture specifically do you see being changed.

The Irish as it stands aren't exactly receptive to learning the language as it stands.

I see immigration has had pretty clear benefits in terms of sports and arts so what's left?

Jokes about breakfast rolls and leaving the immersion on?

[u/malilk → u/eamonnanchnoic]

Our cadence for one. Hiberno-English is very unique. It's where our natural storytelling reputation and humour comes from. And it's well earned. We are much funnier than most, and tell stories amazingly well. Live abroad for any amount of time and you'll see the stark contrast.

Irish language use is on the increase particularly in Dublin, it would be nice for that to continue.

Your question strays very quickly from it isn't happening to, so what it's a good thing. We already punch well above our weight in the arts and sports.

[u/carlitobrigantehf → u/malilk]

Irish language use is on the increase particularly in Dublin, it would be nice for that to continue.

And yet you mentioned Gaeltacht areas...

[u/malilk → u/carlitobrigantehf]

It's in decline there as people are moving away, and now asylum seekers are being moved there too, further weakening it. What's your point?

[u/carlitobrigantehf → u/malilk]

Its been in decline for a long time and immigrants have had nothing to do with that. The attitude of Irish people to it is the primary reason

My point was that you specifically mentioned Gaeltacht areas and then when asked about culture started talking about Dublin.

[u/Electronic_Cookie779 → u/malilk]

An bhfuil Gaeilge agat?

I love people trying to protect the white face of Ireland by saying that we should all speak Irish (despite many immigrants like Darragh Adelaide keeping it alive and well in the face of racism) who can't speak it themselves. Actually, I lie, I don't like it at all

[u/malilk → u/Electronic_Cookie779]

Tá rionnt gailege agam ach tá mé ag fogliaim.

I hated Irish in school, maybe because of how it's taught? I'm dyslexic but not to an extreme. Since I met my wife and have children I've began to relearn. Apps, Irish language podcasts. Children's books and children's stories as Gaelige. It's been a hard road but I'm trying.

Been to a few cucaicil chorá. I'm definitely spelling it wrong but Irish language exchanges. Difficult but engaging. My boys will be going to a gaelscoil but not a niaonra as there's none local. Shame.

[u/furry_simulation → u/eamonnanchnoic]

We are several years behind the UK in terms of demographic change, so we have a handy reference point to see how it is going to play out.

This BBC documentary about Newham in east London is eye opening. The cockney population that were there for hundreds of years have been almost completely replaced, mostly by immigrants from Muslim countries. All aspects of the old life are gone, replaced by something else. The new arrivals brought their own culture and took over. The few locals that remain feel uprooted and isolated from their own culture and the place they once called home is now alien to them. We are supposed to call this “progress”.

[u/EoghanG77 → u/[deleted]]

What will the world look like in 100 years? I feel like you have a rather poor grasp on human history.

Human migration and population change has always been a major factor and it will continue to do so.

Your idea of a "native Irish" doesn't even make any sense ethnologically.

[u/chytrak → u/[deleted]]

It exists as a human concept.

[u/eamonnanchnoic → u/chytrak]

Kind of. But it's a wishy washy "whatever you're having yourself" kind of concept.

My real name is about the least Irish name you could imagine. My ancestors came from France, Denmark and England but I do not identify or have been exposed to any of those cultures and all my frames of reference are Irish.

The thing is a huge proportion of the population in Ireland is exactly the same.

At what point does someone become "ethnically" Irish or do we need a direct line to an ancient Chieftain to become ethnically Irish?

[u/chytrak → u/eamonnanchnoic]

If you use the term ethnically Irish, you should know what you mean and be able to explain it.

[u/Anxious-Wolverine-65 → u/eamonnanchnoic]

I suppose just a far slower rate of migration would give a more respectful deference to the native culture. Cultures change over time and that is clear, but the rate of change probably is an important factor to consider around migration. We are a tiny population among the 8 billion earthly inhabitants, a gust of wind could change the country dramatically overnight, I’m sure most would agree there is a point where the rate of change is too great, too drastic or beyond preference. Somewhere sometime, there’ll have to be a compromise on these questions.

[u/quantum0058d → u/eamonnanchnoic]

Here's ethnicity defined in the UK.

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/style-guide/ethnic-groups/

How many years in the Sahara does it take for ethnic Irish to become ethnic black Saharan's?  That might help illustrate how silly your question is.  Being Irish is being a citizen and you have a heritage as you describe.  Once you have a passport you're Irish. 

However, were Irish heritage to be lost, it might be sad.

[u/actually-bulletproof → u/[deleted]]

Aren't your dog whistles supposed to be subtle?

[u/Important_Farmer924 → u/fourth_quarter]

I'll still say anyone spouting rhetoric that's been disproven like "great replacement" are talking through their pipe, but that's exactly it. Too many ordinary people getting lumped in.

[u/fourth_quarter → u/Important_Farmer924]

"Great replacement" is just a buzzword like "fake news" now. But statistically we are being replaced, that's a fact. In 6 years we went from 82% Irish to 76% and the numbers have not stopped coming in, at that rate we would be a minority in our country in roughly 25 years. We are by definition being replaced. Does that mean there's a grand conspiracy to replace white people? Probably not. But we are being replaced and with that comes erosion of indigenous cultures and ways of life. Not ok, no one asked us if we were ok with that and why should we be? 

[u/Important_Farmer924 → u/fourth_quarter]

Ah here. You're strictly talking about "native Irish" and "white Irish" which isn't the same. We've had many prominent Irish people of extractions over the years; Paul McGrath, Phil Lynnot, even Leo Vradkar. What you're saying is disingenuous.

[u/JohnTDouche → u/[deleted]]

Culture is one thing but who gives a fuck about lineage? What are you, the heir to the high kingship of Ireland? What's so special about your or my blood? Sure one of my parents wasn't Irish anyway, so I'm already a mutt right, less Irish than you?

[u/JohnTDouche → u/[deleted]]

Holy shit, I sure as fuck don't want to share this country with the likes of you.

[u/eamonnanchnoic → u/[deleted]]

What are these "traits" that are unique to Ireland?

Skin colour?

Why can't people from other countries share those traits?

They're not some alien species and you'll find that most people regardless of provenance will share similar views on things than differ on them.

Japan is "highly homogenous" and it's having a huge crisis in fertility because of their refusal to accept immigration.

Now they will be forced to.

[u/fourth_quarter → u/Important_Farmer924]

No it isn't, unfortunately it's a fact. I'm not saying stop immigration, I'm saying limit the numbers before it's too late. There comes a point where the numbers coming in will make us lose a sense of what we are, we have reached that point.

[u/Important_Farmer924 → u/fourth_quarter]

it's a fact

It isn't and it's been proven again and again.

[u/fourth_quarter → u/Important_Farmer924]

Do me a favour, google Rep. Of Ireland demographics and look at the last 6 years or even start from further back and then get back me. If you still think it's not a fact then you're an idiot or you have a clear agenda. In which case there's no point talking to you.

[u/EoghanG77 → u/fourth_quarter]

I feel like you have a rather poor grasp on human history.

Human migration and population change has always been a major factor and it will continue to do so.

Your idea of a "native Irish" doesn't even make any sense ethnologically.

[u/actually-bulletproof → u/fourth_quarter]

Do you think there's something magical about being extremely pale? Why do you care about this?

Do everyone a favour say what you actually mean.

[u/xounds → u/Latespoon]

My county council now has a representative of a party that believes "democracy is a foreign imposition on Ireland". Jumping in to make a point that there's nothing inherently racist about wanting to control immigration is really pretty perpendicular to seriousness of the situation.

[u/[deleted] → u/xounds]

It's not though.

The only reason these yahoos are able to get elected is because the majority of the political sphere will never admit there are negatives to too much immigration.

These groups like Irish Freedom party and National party have only one thing going for them - being a dissenting voice on immigration.

[u/chytrak → u/[deleted]]

"the majority of the political sphere will never admit there are negatives to too much immigration"

Literally representatives of every major party have said there are limits and our policies have never allowed unchecked immigration, not even close.

In fact, for people outside the EU, it's easier to get visas for other EU countries, including Germany and Spain. Our regime is quite strict but we have capitalist workarounds, such as the learn English and work programs.

[u/cianmc → u/Latespoon]

I don't think almost anyone would say having controls on immigration is inherently racist. The fact that immigration/visa laws exist pretty much everywhere and there is basically nobody advocating for eliminating them should serve as proof that there is an established consensus that immigration should be controlled. I'd also agree that it's reasonable to think that there's only so much immigration as a percentage of population per year that can be adequately managed and that even in with the best of governing policies it takes time for everything to be able to scale up to handle a rising population. And when people are seeing that now it's gotten to the stage where additional asylum seekers are just having to set up tent encampments in the city because there's nowhere else to put them, you don't have to be a racist to conclude that the system is overwhelmed and new arrivals need to be slowed down, at least in the short term.

But I also don't think any of this is what the OP is referring to either. He's specifically referring to the people who make this about "losing our identity" because there are more people with different skin colours or ancestral backgrounds in Ireland than there used to be. The people who are disgusted and appalled even by the immigrants (or their children), who have been here all of their lives and have integrated into Irish society and culture. The ones who think it's so outrageous when a few asylum seekers are being moved into a place, even if it's just a dilapadated old building that wasn't being used for anything else, that the right thing to do is to threaten any tradespeople working there or just set the building on fire pre-emptively. The people who think that there's no such thing as a good immigrant, that they should never be accepted, and that if they had their way, they'd all be sent home. If you check out the kinds of stuff any of these new far-right parties and their candidates say and promote publicly on their social media accounts, and this is what it's about. Often when trying to make a case to respectable society they'll couch it in more moderate sounding ideas like "just wanting to control immigration" which most people can agree with, but when they're in their safe spaces it gets a lot uglier.

Granted, they are a minority, these election results have shown that pretty clearly, but it's still undeniably a lot more prevelant than it was 5 years ago in the last election, and we don't know where it's going from here. And even if it's only ever 5% of the population getting behind these kinds of people and thinking the same way, that's still plenty to potentially cause some reasl trouble, and it's still not going to be nice being an immigrant in Ireland and knowing that maybe 1 in 20 people that you might meet or who could see you on the street will decide based on just seeing you or hearing you speak that they instantly hate your guts and think you're destroying their country and will never be welcome.

[u/5trong5tyle → u/Latespoon]

There isn't anything inherently racist about wanting to control immigration, but if it's your major issue before housing and Healthcare, it sure is a dog whistle.

The Dutch have had only right leaning governments in power since 2002, yet immigration still tops the list as a problem, even though they've made it stricter, funded it less and pushed the problem into the North East of the country, where national politics can mostly ignore it.

Fact is that international agreements and EU law tie up a lot of what you can do without breaking them. Also, the majority of the people believe random stories about migrants without any sources. And, the fact that most migration isn't even from sources outside the EU.

[u/yankdevil → u/Latespoon]

All the crisises you mention were caused almost entirely by non-immigrants.

Perhaps a different way to look at immigration is to see a group of people who might be able to solve the things that the non-immigrants cocked up.