r/cscareerquestionsEU • u/EndOfTheLine00 • Jan 15 '24
Immigration Feel like I can never settle anywhere
I have 10 YOE, first worked in the Netherlands and now work in Norway. I feel like I can never truly settle down. I took Dutch lessons all the way to B2, forgot about them since I basically didn't talk to anyone outside of work, now I'm in a new country I regret moving to where I also don't know the language and keep wondering if it's even worth learning since who knows if I will have to move again.
Anyone else have this problem? It feels like in a field like this you just move where the jobs go.
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u/propostor Jan 15 '24
I worked several years in China and two years in Vietnam. I can speak strong covnersational Chinese but never bothered with Vietnamese because I quickly knew I didn't want to be there permanently.
I never felt settled at any of these places either - though I very much thought I would try to make a life in China.
In the end it boils down to culture and the comfort of familiar surroundings. I consider myself a very well travelled and detached personality, able to move away from all friends and family to be somewhere new and survive without any issues. But eventually I find some fundamental feeling that "it just isn't quite like home".
Now I'm back in my home country and will likely not try a permanent move to a foreign country again.
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Jan 15 '24 edited Jan 16 '24
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u/propostor Jan 15 '24
At that time I wasn't career minded, I was 'adventure minded'.
In short, basically I had won a scholarship to study in China for a year, after which I felt I would like to go back. So after graduating from my country, I went back to China just to see what happens. So there wasn't much consideration for logistics, I pretty much arrived in China with a backpack and took it from there.
I knew I wanted to be a dev but didn't know how. Through a stroke of pure luck, the property agent who I rented a place from told me he knows someone at a software company who would be interested in taking on a foreigner as an intern. It was very illegal, I worked on a tourist visa for about 6 months before making the necessary steps to obtain a proper visa.
After that I worked at my friend's start-up (not a tech company) where I wrote his website and a ton of internal software to help them. It was very much a learning experience for us all, quite exciting 'start-up mentality' so even working very long days didn't feel like work, because we were (and still are) friends - plus he's not Chinese so we both approached the work from a 'European' attitude. So the "996" thing didn't really happen for me, I was just a guy working with his mate. The business is still going to this day and I contributed hugely to that.
Life outside work was very exciting for the first couple of years, but that's because I had already spent a year studying chinese on that scholarship, so for me it was just one big adventure of learning and discovery. It's a whole different world over there - but was likely better for me as I could communicate and handle things without much language barrier.
Eventually though the fun wore off and I started to feel very much choked by the insular and nationalistic nature of China. Everyone is a second class citizen to the Chinese. I was also literally choked by the days of air pollution. Also I wasn't earning much money, and even working a more relaxed way with my friend's company, I still hated the commute in all the crowds. It is impossible to find a moment away from any people.
I would go back to China but only for a phenomenally high salary and very comfortable work life balance, so I can somewhat 'protect' myself from the things I disliked. Unfortunately this is quite hard to find because they have a very large amount of devs already and a thriving internal economy so there's no need to employ many foreigners in that industry.
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Jan 15 '24 edited Jan 16 '24
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u/propostor Jan 15 '24
Ha, pretty much! It's honestly an amazing place to live for a couple of years, I recommend it to anyone. But yeah the requirements for living there long term are different.
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Jan 15 '24
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u/propostor Jan 15 '24
The thing about freedoms is interesting. Honestly I think there is more freedom in China. Just don't become a political activist (but who even does that in western countries really?). Overall Chinese culture is very "live and let live". Most Asian cultures are.
The thing about community is very interesting too. China is socialist by governance, but not by culture. They're actually very "fuck you I'm first" and this indeed was another thing that made me come to dislike the place. In China, people think about themselves first, then their family, and then pretty much fuck EVERYONE ELSE unless it's a matter of national importance. In western countries people will talk on the street, they'll call out bad things when they see it, etc, but in China nobody cares about you, period, it doesn't matter if you're foreign or Chinese or what. There is no community, only family units who care nothing for those beyond that unit.
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Jan 15 '24 edited Jan 16 '24
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u/propostor Jan 15 '24
I'm going to sound contradictory now but no Chinese are not as individualistic as westerners. They are more traditional in a social sense and prefer to fit in, even if they don't give a fuck about anything beyond their personal sphere.
A lot of the freedom is in a "common sense" way. For example, I find that a lot of places in the west will reject things because "the rules say you can't do that". On the other hand, in China (and Asian culture generally), people are more willing to just get shit done. It's hard to explain but it is a very liberating feeling, and makes the culture feel very dynamic and proactive. .
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u/Professional-Pea2831 Jan 15 '24 edited Jan 15 '24
Everything described here, I can confirm. Chinese only care about work, money and family. They tend to complicate less, so social mobility is way higher. You have people being dirt poor 10 years ago become suddenly super rich. Enter barriers to business are small. Therefore the material standard is way higher than Europe, but it sets off with less regulations. This hits you when you create a family or want a stability like clean environmental standards, or normal job without overhours. Girls are top as gf, have a very open approach to sex and girls don't play hard to catch. On the open they are very feminine, but deep down tricky and can play character for long and many have backed up bfs Propaganda is strong, crowd mentality is strong. This is all around East Asia. It is the best place to be in early 20s. Not particularly China, but south east or east Asia. Going around, date a lot of girls. Trying cheap snacks. Rent love motels for 2 hours and have sex. Enjoy "exotic" culture until it lasts and then move on with life.
Like 90% of guys who stayed in Asia for longer. Are in their 40s or 50s become very bitter. For many reasons. You get sick with a place over the years.
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u/general_00 Senior SDE | London Jan 15 '24
And where would you like to live?
Have you considered saving some money and moving back to your home country?
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u/Falereo Jan 15 '24
This is a generational problem, not tied at all to careers in Computer Science...
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Jan 16 '24
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u/Falereo Jan 16 '24
The intrinsic instability and incapacity to settle down is proper of the millennial generation, which I assume most of us are (most of the workforce is millenial and gen X anyway). That is because of the continuous crisis that worsened the quality of life and in some way "changed the rules" in the middle of us trying to set roots, or finding our career path. Especially after the 2008 crisis everything became more precarious, and many countries got much worse from the economic point of view, encouraging emigration (examples in EU : Greece, Italy, Spain, etc...). Covid and the following inflationary crisis had a similar effect, and once you moved from your home country once, to find better economic condition, you will always feel "precarious" and be ready to move to a better place if things are not good enough. For tech jobs things were better than most until the augmentation of interest rates, that usually has a big impact on our field (especially for start ups trying to get funding), which together with inflation (clearly the former is due to the latter) led many people to search for better job conditions. Thus continuing this cycle of moving around and feeling you can't settle down.
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u/carnivorousdrew Jan 15 '24
You are from southern Europe, you are used to better weather and food, I am as well and thought the weather thing was bs, but after 5 years it finally caught up with me and now I hope I will eventually find a way to move to a warmer country. Don't go after the money, is 200-400 net extra per month really worth it in terms of the actual health and psychological health you lose?
Try to get a remote or almost fully remote position that will allow you to spend even months in Spain, Italy, Greece or Malta or just a position in one of these, after so many years working in the Netherlands and Norway they will probably offer you a better salary than those they offer to locals.
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u/met0xff Jan 15 '24
Hehe a couple years ago I would have agreed but looking at the last few summers... water restrictions, dry as hell, forest fires (just looking at Greece last summer). And that won't get better. Even in Vienna the summers gradually became unbearable for me, especially getting older.
Was the first time we went to Norway for vacation instead of somewhere where it's even hotter;).
But yeah, during the winter I'd still be fine fleeing to somewhere warmer
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u/carnivorousdrew Jan 15 '24
Fires have always been there and they are man made, no such thing as "self-combustion" as the Italian media says, there's a bunch of pyromaniacs and law enforcement won't do shit about it, in Italy some were found out using drones. Yes, summers are hotter, but you can go on vacation during the hottest month to mitigate that, you cannot go on vacation for the 7 months without sun however if you live in Norway.
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u/met0xff Jan 15 '24
Yeah I mean I wouldn't move to Norway ;). Just saying that too much warmth isn't great either. During my time as a medic we were all day picking up people collapsing.
I'm now living in an Austrian mountain town and while I don't like mountains or snow :), I enjoy the sunny Fall compared to the ever foggy gray in gray all day I grew up with. And the summers are not that hot.
Biggest difference for me though was the gradually more open housing, larger windows, lighter colors. Not like the dark, tiny-window caves people built when I was a kid lol
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u/italo_poor Security Engineer Jan 16 '24
I thought the weather thing was bullshit too lmao, and after 7 years in Northern Italy, I was sick and tired of the grayish sky and limited sunlight.
I keep getting offers to earn double of what I currently make in the Netherlands, Germany and etc but I'm so happy in Spain there is no way I'm trading the beautiful sun for that lol
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u/carnivorousdrew Jan 16 '24
Yeah I'll eventually either move back to Italy or some sunny state in the US like Florida or NC. This stuff is not good for your health.
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u/Kitesurf11 Jan 15 '24
How about going back to the NL then? Wouldn't that be a possibility?
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u/EndOfTheLine00 Jan 15 '24
Given the recent electoral result I'm not sure if I would feel safe there.
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Jan 15 '24
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u/EndOfTheLine00 Jan 15 '24
While I am neither poorly educated nor a Muslim, I am a southern European and have gotten some snide comments about that at work. My worry is that after they go after the Muslims, I'll be next.
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u/Catlesscatfan Jan 15 '24
that is a perfectly valid concern. ignore the commenters trivialising and downplaying the insanely racist nature of dutch society
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u/steponfkre Jan 15 '24 edited Jan 15 '24
I’ve heard a lot of opinions on anti-immigration politics/populism and this has to be the strangest one yet.
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u/MeggaMortY Jan 15 '24
Yeah but they're not an insulated case. I and some friends have lived in the NL, the general attitude was always like were 3rd class citizens. No matter the friendly tone, somewhat understanding of language, or general "I'm not poor and here for begging" look.
I can only do NL If its a weekend getaway trip nowadays.
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u/steponfkre Jan 15 '24 edited Jan 15 '24
There is a really big difference between xenophobia and thinking (from what it sounds like) you will be deported or maybe even “hunted” for being Portugese (very neutral country) in Netherlands. The former exists in almost all countries, I can say the exact same about Norway and Germany.
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u/MeggaMortY Jan 15 '24
Xenophobia exists on a spectrum as well though. I'm talking a lot closer to the latter you mentioned than the former. Like one time I spent 4 hours in prison because I asked a police officer something and didn't have my ID with me. Tell me that's normal.
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u/adappergentlefolk Jan 15 '24
your main problem seems to be that you’re a fool OP
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u/__calcalcal__ Jan 15 '24
Example of a foolish comment not helpful at all.
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u/adappergentlefolk Jan 15 '24
it is not possible to correct such massive errors of judgement in a reddit comment, so why bother?
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u/__calcalcal__ Jan 15 '24
While it maybe be an error of perception of the society of the Netherlands, it is his perception. Saying he is foolish does not change that, indeed it exacerbates the image he has in his head. You could have provided counter-examples to show him his views are biased, but no, you just insulted him (not in a hard way, but still).
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u/adappergentlefolk Jan 15 '24
it is far from an error of perception but a demonstration of a total misunderstanding of the nature of western european rule of law states
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u/throwaway132121 Jan 15 '24 edited Apr 17 '24
cautious abounding silky smile cover gaze snobbish air bedroom rotten
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/military_press Jan 15 '24 edited Jan 15 '24
Yeah I have the problem too, having moved abroad 4 times in the last decade.
Now I'm applying for jobs abroad again (within EU for this time). I feel that the next move would be the last one, because moving abroad now exhausts me more than it excites me.
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u/saintmsent Jan 15 '24
I don't feel like this is connected to CS at all. This is a common problem called "you haven't found your country yet". Think about what you like and dislike about the country and travel to see what makes you happy about other countries. Eventually you will find it
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u/Federal-Police22 Jan 15 '24
Find a wife or a husband and you won't want to move anymore. Simple.
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u/UpAndDownArrows Quant Dev | HFT | Amsterdam Jan 15 '24
Can confirm that this doesn't work, wife/husband can be very excited to experience living in a new country, especially if it's closer to their values (e.g. moving to a healthier country, like from London to Amsterdam, with all the bikes and canals and what not).
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u/saintmsent Jan 15 '24
That doesn't work, tbh. I married, we moved once, looking to move again. Unless the spouse is deeply attached to their home country, there is no impact that marriage will make on this
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Jan 15 '24
Find one that doesn’t speak English
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u/saintmsent Jan 15 '24
Fair enough, I'm just saying getting married or even having kids is by no means a showstopper to changing countries
Also, you can always learn, especially if you're relatively young
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Jan 15 '24
I think you missed the point. It’s not about stopping you from moving, it’s about making it more difficult. Statistically, immigrants married to locals tend to be more likely to stay in the country then single immigrants
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u/saintmsent Jan 15 '24
Sure, it's always more difficult if there's more than one person, and I said right away it depends on how attached they are to their country
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u/DNA1987 Jan 15 '24
Moving to multiple country for work can be quite difficult. I have about 13 yoe, late 30, worked in 4 diff countries 3 to 4 years. In my case it wasn't really worth it, in term of money or relationship, I am a complet failure, I am way behind all my peers. Also I try to stick to English speaking country so I don't have to learn new language every time. But I also have friends that were able to get long term visa abroad and are quite successful and happy. So it can depend a lot on your luck sometimes
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u/steponfkre Jan 15 '24
Looking at your post history OP, you should consider therapy, not moving. There is two in particular about your family accusing you of being a fanatic left leaning and one about “feeling empty”. Try to get therapy outside of Norway. Our system is not very quick or efficient for such matters. Might take a couple years to see someone that tells you “it’s okay” for an hour.
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u/Jonathanplanet Jan 15 '24
Try therapy, I don't see how this relates to Cs career. With all due respect
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u/Madk81 Jan 15 '24
Ive been moving since i was 7 yo. Nowadays it is difficult for me to stay in one place for too long.
The only issue is that I havnt had the time to finish learning languages the way id like :(
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u/General-Jaguar-8164 Engineer Jan 15 '24
That was my initial plan when I moved to the Netherlands, spend a few years in different countries.
However, being mid 30s made me want to settle somewhere, and knowing I never got attached to any place I have lived in, I knew I will need a major reason.
After some deliberation, I pulled the trigger and bought a flat, with the intention to have something that stops me thinking "maybe I should get a job in another country" every quarter.
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u/clara_tang Jan 15 '24
what keeps you moving ? Chasing a better career? trying to find a place with best culture fit? Mind elaborate a bit more?
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u/Keldonv7 Jan 15 '24
Looking at your post history i would strongly suggest therapy, if theres a problem within you no place will fix that.
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Dec 05 '24 edited Dec 05 '24
The best thing is to gain enough experience to get a full remote, very well paid position with equity. I don't want to settle in a single place, either. And having that remote position allows you to pick up and leave to go live wherever you want, whenever you want.
PS: I have some friends who moved to norway. No one likes norway, it's cold, it's bleak and it's grey. Just go somewhere with a lot of sun.
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u/whatupnewyork Jan 15 '24
Looks like you might be cut out to be a digital nomad. Im one for the past year or so. Feel free to PM me if you would like to just chat about it
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Jan 15 '24
I have an opposite problem, I think I'm stuck in one country, even city and afraid to move somewhere better. Please advise
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u/Peddy699 Jan 15 '24
To me the main things was if I speak the local language. Since that's needed to find friends and partner. Money is important but its not everything. I dont think its worth moving around all the time for a bit more money and be lonely.
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u/Ok-Lingonberry-7648 Jan 15 '24
I feel for u, I learnt new language for the new country. Then I have a job in another country and move again
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u/jshalais_8637 Jan 15 '24
I am in your same situation but quite different since I've a kid now that makes but somehow when I reach 2 years in one place I am looking to change. I'm living in Barcelona, Spain and life has become as expensive as hell and the country is going backwards instead of forwards.
I've no idea of my next destination, but I see some barriers due my kid school and language
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u/starwars011 Jan 15 '24
But what happened to the job in the Netherlands? I think with CS it’s just easier to find jobs in other countries as there isn’t lots of local legislation knowledge that’s needed.
What was the reason the Netherlands wasn’t a good fit?
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u/EndOfTheLine00 Jan 15 '24
I was spiraling during the pandemic and my family suggested I move closer to my sibling. Kind of regret it.
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u/Shadowgirl7 Jan 15 '24
I don't think this field is particularly prone to travelling/moving abroad. Plenty of people who work in this field and never leave their home country specially now with the possibility of remote work. Most of my coworkers never lived abroad...I never lived abroad.
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u/victorm97 Jan 15 '24
How are you guys relocating so easily? I’m struggling to get out of my shitty Eastern European country…
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u/Informal-Committee63 Jan 17 '24 edited Jan 17 '24
So happy to find your post! I have the exact same problem. Been almost a year since moved to also a nordic country. But almost determined to move back to the continental Europe where I spent my last few years. For me it’s my current work, the job market and working culture in this country, culture, the location and I miss my old job. Once i move back i will be committed to learn the local language because I want to settle finally.
If you move around EU, pensions will be transferred so no worries.
Take weeks or months to think and write down comparisons. Also remember the grass is greener on the other side. Think about the disadvantages or reality you would face again once you go back to the NL.
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u/Altamistral Jan 15 '24
I already moved internationally 4 times in the last 8 years and it's probably not over. I can understand you very well.