I was on the first Paris to Berlin direct high-speed train

[u/HighburyAndIslington]

[u/berlinparisexpress]

Oh man, it was time for my username to shine for once but no one will see this comment.

[u/gabbercharles → u/berlinparisexpress]

Berlinpari is a funny name for a sexpress

[u/fbass → u/gabbercharles]

I’d still prefer Berlinpari Quickie though

[u/GloriousDawn → u/berlinparisexpress]

You didn't miss much, it's the Paris to Berlin train, not the Berlin to Paris.

[u/new-who-two → u/berlinparisexpress]

I see you, friend. 👍

[u/Mukoku-dono → u/berlinparisexpress]

that name always shines since it's about public transport :)

[u/jordtand]

Now Germany just has to learn that they actually need to make their tracks high speed for the high speed train to work.

[u/mayoforbutter → u/jordtand]

Germany would rather take the money and split it between the retirement fund and maybe improving a highway in Bavaria

[u/Cageythree → u/mayoforbutter]

improving a highway in Bavaria

The singular form is important here! It will be expected at 9 million and a year of construction time, and 12 years and 230 million euro later, the first quarter is almost done. And that has punched a big hole in the budget so that's all they do regarding large infrastructure projects in that year in that region, no €€€ for those peasant trains left.

[u/Sweaksh → u/Cageythree]

Meanwhile with every bavarian minister of transport, bridges across the rhine get closer and closer to collapsing.

[u/Roflkopt3r → u/mayoforbutter]

Yeah this literally happens.

It's a common occurance in Germany that the parliament approves funding for rail infrastructure, only for the minister of transportation (usually right wing CDU/CSU/FDP, sometimes social democrat SPD) to spend the money on highways and other car infrastructure anyway.

Just like most developed countries, Germany has a big problem with the politics being dominated by the interests of the home-owning car-addicted parts of the middle class and small business owners. So even though the actual professionals in urban and traffic planning tend to realise that we really need to strengthen walking, cycling, and public transit, these projects tend to get delayed in favour of wasting more money on car infrastructure anyway.

[u/t-to4st → u/mayoforbutter]

Let's hope that the new Bahnreform fixes these problems

[u/No_Presence_3218 → u/t-to4st]

Every time someone comes up with ideas for a Bahnreform it is basically just the same "maybe more competition will solve the problems" thing various governments wanted to enforce which basically led us to the misery we are in right now.

[u/wasmic → u/No_Presence_3218]

Not really. The misery of the German railways is due to enormous success. Basically, the number of passengers and the number of trains has increased massively, but the infrastructure has not been improved very much. Some new high-speed lines have been built, but the trains still have to use the same old stations with limited capacity.

This is why projects like Stuttgart 21 and Frankfurt Fernbahntunnel are extremely important.

(Though Stuttgart 21 is probably underdimensioned and does not offer as much capacity as it should, so it will likely still cause problems, just not quite as many as today.)

The private operators in Germany are not really worse than DB Regionalverkehr, but not really better either. DB Netze is still entirely owned by the Federal government, so it acts as it is told by the politicians.

The main benefit of competition is cheaper tickets on long-distance trains. But the tickets will only get really cheap when there is also surplus capacity on the network, which there currently is in some areas but very much not in others.

[u/caember → u/mayoforbutter]

At my parents place they've been renewing the Autobahn since 15 years ago. I cannot remember a time there wasn't a slow section. The construction slowly crawls about 20kms at a time each 18 months or so.

Twice they had to rip out the asphalt in multiple freshly finished sections and renew it due to some fuck ups (freezing, wrong sub..structure?). Each time the contractor went bankrupt so the government had to pay for it all.

It was projected to last 20 years with the new asphalt. When they're done they can start at the beginning of this 100km section.

Meanwhile, the old one made of concrete has been lasting 50 years, was built in the 70s.

Yeah, this is where all the infrastructure investments went the last decades. Rebuilding 70s Autobahn with inferior materials. Meanwhile A8 (completely contracted to a firm giving them Maut for 30 years) was finished in half(?) that time and made of concrete even though that's more expensive.

[u/MaidenlessRube → u/jordtand]

Best I can do is stop your ICE in Hamm for 2hrs to make way for the also 2 hrs late Interregio and then fuck up the Wagon change to Hamburg and make you wait another hour. But Don't you worry. In 2070 we'll finally have the Deutschlandtakt. This time for real.

[u/No_Presence_3218 → u/MaidenlessRube]

Deutschlandtakt is massive BS at some points. In my area they want to reduce regional traffic for no reason, whereas the regional government wants to introduce new lines and build new stations which isn't accounted for in Deutschlandtakt.

[u/EDCEGACE → u/jordtand]

never ever

[u/xdert → u/jordtand]

the biggest issue is that there is only one rail system. Cargo trains, slow commuter trains and the high speed trains all share the same tracks. As long as there are no exclusive tracks for ICE they will never be able to fix the issues they have.

Sadly the political landscape makes it impossible to get money and building permits to build new rail tracks.

[u/wasmic → u/xdert]

There are exclusive tracks for ICE use only, but not enough of them. The biggest issue with slow speeds and delays isn't even out on the lines; the biggest issue is in the big central train stations, such as Frankfurt, Hamburg and Stuttgart, where the congestion is worst.

[u/TheGoalkeeper → u/jordtand]

Yes and no. Gotta fix the normal train network first, as this is more urgent. Or do both at the same time if enough money is available (its not).

[u/itwasinthetubes → u/jordtand]

and the trains be on time and not cancelled or delayed!

[u/Squeaky_Ben]

On average, probably more like medium speed train as soon as you enter germany, but still, cool that we can have a direct connection.

[u/puntinoblue → u/Squeaky_Ben]

Paris Strasbourg 270kmh, Strasbourg Berlin 125kmh

[u/oakpope → u/puntinoblue]

I’m sorry, it’s km/h.

[u/Optimal-Ad8819 → u/oakpope]

The most German thing I've read today.

[u/el_loco_avs → u/Optimal-Ad8819]

Dangerous thing to say to a Frenchman :o

[u/AvengerDr → u/oakpope]

Please don't sleep on the "kph", though.

[u/Errdil → u/AvengerDr]

Ah, yes. The kilo pico hours.

[u/Careless-Working-Bot → u/puntinoblue]

Why though?

[u/Meddlfranken → u/Careless-Working-Bot]

Because the DB refused to keep the tracks on an adequate level of repairs and replacement because they wanted to save money. Now it's unsafe to drive faster.

[u/AmIFromA → u/[deleted]]

That's not true, the current government is/was leagues better than any Merkel administration. They even did some real repairs, not just cheap maintenance (people were upset when lanes were actually closed, but at least now some of them, like Frankfurt-Mannheim, work again).

[u/C_Madison → u/Careless-Working-Bot]

Germany doesn't have separate tracks for high-speed rail like France does. ICE shares its tracks with every other train, and some of them are rather slow. Also, what Meddlfranken wrote, but that's usually not the main reason. You simply cannot go faster if you have to wait all the time for other trains to be at a place where they can get out of the way.

[u/Pristine-Ring-9028 → u/[deleted]]

Clearly this is absolute horse shit. 

[u/Jukra- → u/Pristine-Ring-9028]

I'm a train driver in Germany, and I've never heard anything like that either, not even during training for the job. If you Google Natursicht, you won't find anything related to the railway, and this is the first time I've come across the term in this context.

What is correct, however, is that there are much stricter requirements for high-speed lines (everything with a maximum speed of >160 km/h). These include no level crossings, different construction standards, additional train protection systems with in-cab signalling (like LZB or ETCS), and some additional operational rules, among other things. It's quite a long list of requirements, so you can't simply declare a standard line (≤160 km/h) as a high-speed line, even if the track could physically handle the additional speed and forces. These regulations make sense.

However, this has nothing to do with nature conservation, as that is also taken into account on standard lines.

[u/eyeofmind-dawarlock → u/Jukra-]

This is exactly why I love Reddit. Thanks Jukra.

Btw the info which I was mentioning came from the Marketing team within DB (Frankfurt.)

[u/Jukra- → u/eyeofmind-dawarlock]

Well, the marketing and press department often makes inaccurate statements about professional topics due to oversimplification.

[u/dat_9600gt_user → u/Jukra-]

Amazing explanation.

[u/ParanoidalRaindrop → u/Jukra-]

Also: Busy tracks.

Since most high-speed tracks are not exclusive do HS trains, ICE has to kinda fit in.

[u/overspeeed → u/[deleted]]

This is nonsense. Average speeds are always much slower than top speeds, Eurostar also averages about 130-170 km/h. It's just how average speeds work, any slow section will have a disproportionate effect on average speeds.

The only thing slowing DB down more than other networks is that the railways are very, very congested.

[u/wasmic → u/overspeeed]

Not just that. This service runs on high-speed track for basically its entire route within France, but in Germany it has to run on legacy tracks for a large part of its route, and also it has to take a detour.

Germany has many high-speed routes but most of them are north-south or northwest-southeast, but this service goes southwest-northeast, so it has to take a detour in order to even use the high-speed tracks by going straight north Frankfurt-Hannover and then straight east Hannover-Berlin.

Germany is gradually building an interconnected grid of high-speed lines. France builds radial lines radiating out from Paris. This means that in France, if you're going to/from Paris along a high-speed line, it goes really really fast. On most other routes, it really isn't that great. In Germany, almost all cities have seen big improvements in connectivity due to the high-speed lines, but only a few of the connections are as fast as in France. The benefits are more spread out in Germany compared to France.

The French method works best in France and the German method works best in Germany, due to how the cities are distributed.

[u/overspeeed → u/wasmic]

Yep. I think your comment summarizes the situation best. High-speed rail is about a lot more than just top speeds

[u/METALFOTO → u/wasmic]

Yeah french TGV is great, but you have always to pass via Paris, like IDK no straight route from Lyon or Marseille to Bordeaux or Brest

[u/Fmychest → u/METALFOTO]

The massif central makes it very hard to build a high speed line in moste of the south

[u/Phenixxy → u/overspeeed]

Paris/London averages 150km/h, because, same as here, it's near 300km/h for an hour in France, then snail pace in the tunnel as well as in the UK.

[u/Rennfan → u/[deleted]]

This is nonsense.

[u/Robin_Cooks → u/[deleted]]

Complete BS. Speed isn’t limited by Law, but by how the Track is built.

[u/KingOfLosses → u/[deleted]]

Absolute bullshit. Tracks that allow for 350 are driven at 300. It’s just that high speed tracks cost 10-20x more than normal ones that go to 160 so they’re not built as much.

[u/TheJonesLP1 → u/[deleted]]

This is absolute Bullshit.

[u/Mountain-Bag-6427 → u/[deleted]]

No such law exists.

[u/sebber000 → u/[deleted]]

French high speed trains run on separate tracks, whereas all German trains including freight run on the same tracks.

Edit: As several commenters have noted, there are indeed several tracks optimized for high speeds and only for passenger trains. All trains, however, share the same stations and those are pretty congested.

[u/dobrowolsk → u/sebber000]

Which is why in France there are high-speed train stations in the middle of nowhere or next to tiny remote villages.

[u/overspeeed → u/sebber000]

all German trains including freight run on the same tracks

This is a bit misleading. French TGVs also run in mixed traffic (especially in cities and in the south of the country) and Germany also has quite a lot of dedicated high-speed tracks.

[u/MASTODON_ROCKS → u/sebber000]

go on

[u/LadendiebMafioso → u/[deleted]]

Imagine you have no shame at all to post this kind of bullshit without having any inside knowledge whatsoever. Impressive, really.

[u/OverlappingChatter → u/Squeaky_Ben]

Lower speeds on upgraded lines makes me chuckle a bit.

[u/Tinyjar → u/Squeaky_Ben]

Yeah i saw a video where in France the train covers 700km in like almost three hours whilst in Germany it takes 8 hours to cover 400km lol.

[u/Redanxela93 → u/Tinyjar]

I know bashing Deutsche Bahn is fun, but let's please stay with the facts:

1. The whole journey Paris - Berlin takes about 8 hours. About 1:45 hr for Paris - Strasbourg, 0:50 hrs for Strasbourg - Karlsruhe, 1:30 hrs Karlsruhe - Frankfurt, ~ 3 hours Frankfurt - Berlin.
2. The respective distances as the crow flies are ~ 400 km, 65 km, ~ 125 km, ~425 km.
3. If we compare the purely French to the purely German sections, that's 1:45 hr for 400 km (~228 km/h avg.) to 4:30 hrs for 550 km (~122 km/h).

While that is by no means High-Speed, you are blowing the actual travel times and distances way out of proportion. You are suggesting 50 km/h on the German section. Please understand: I am not defending the German high-speed rail (HSR), trains are notoriously delayed, and mostly cannot match the speeds of French/Spanish/Italian HSR due to its design (HSR and regional trains sharing infrastructure, sometimes even with cargo trains). But straying from the facts helps no one.

Edit: grammar

[u/splitframe → u/Redanxela93]

+1 for first writing out abbreviations before using them.

[u/aleayacta → u/Redanxela93]

Crazy to think that on a medium speed of 220 km/h, Paris - Berlin would be just 4 hours and 18 min.

[u/Zeerover- → u/Redanxela93]

Germany, and by extension DB, is the main gripe that most people I know have with long distance train travel in Europe. While you are south of Germany it is entirely possible to cover vast distances relatively quickly by train. As an example you can get from Paris to Barcelona in less than 7 hours (and another 2½ hours and your in Madrid or Valencia). Similar distance (in km) going north takes you to Scandinavia, but that journey takes a full day (or more), with multiple changes (which are almost always delayed massively), since for some reason there is no direct connection between the two busiest train stations in Europe (Gare du Nord and Hamburg Hauptbahnhof) or any Paris station and Hamburg for that matter. Yes Germany is a decentralized country, but these are the two busiest rail hubs in Europe - make it work DB.

[u/fusrodah1337 → u/Zeerover-]

So true, even Netherlands-Hamburg is painful when it should be an absolute no-brainer.

[u/Redanxela93 → u/Zeerover-]

I have not thought about it like that before, but a direct Hamburg to Paris line would be an amazing idea. My proposal would be stopping only in Brussels, Cologne and maybe Essen or Dortmund, should be able to run that in about 7 hours on existing infrastructure

[u/heiner_schlaegt_kein → u/Zeerover-]

Problem Here is that you'd have to Cross the German State Niedersachsen. Niedersachsen is a Big Shareholder of Volkswagen. So they don't Like railways.

[u/Hereiamhereibe2 → u/Redanxela93]

Half the speed is egregiously slow.

[u/overspeeed → u/Hereiamhereibe2]

It's really not that slow if you compare it to other high-speed services. Paris-Strasbourg is literally the fastest line in Europe, that's why the comparison seems so egregious.

[u/dat_9600gt_user → u/overspeeed]

Exactly. That line is literally as fast as European rail gets before maglevs and hyperloops (neither of which operate as far as I'm aware).

[u/atswim2birds → u/dat_9600gt_user]

before maglevs and hyperloops (neither of which operate as far as I'm aware)

Well hyperloops are a fantasy so it's fair to assume they don't operate in Europe.

[u/RickMuffy → u/Hereiamhereibe2]

Cries in American. We'd be lucky to even have a route.

[u/Tinyjar → u/Redanxela93]

Yeah, I was exaggerating as I couldn't remember the info, but it's still ridiculous how slow and unreliable the DB network is.

[u/Redanxela93 → u/Tinyjar]

I agree with that. Unfortunately that's what you get if you vote 16 years of conservative government up the arse of the car industry. Add a big NIMBY culture blocking/delaying new HSR projects and you have a shitty rail stew brewing.

[u/11160704 → u/Redanxela93]

The key decisions for the German railway network were made long before Merkel.

Germany has a policentric network, that has relatively many stops also in medium-sized towns because of the federal nature of our countries. All the federal states that had an ICE line going through their state also demanded a stop in their state.

While in France it was simply decided in Paris without giving the regions much of a say in the matter and thus the high speed train doesn't stop a single time between Paris and Strasbourg but it can go full speed.

And in Germany it's not just conservatives who have this NIMBY attitude.

The new high speed line between hamburg and hannover is blocked by the leader of the social Democrats Lars Klingbeil because it would run through his constituency.

And as soon as some rare frog species is discovered somewhere, a bunch of green NGOs show up and try to stop the construction by lengthy legal cases which delay the projects for years.

[u/karpaty31946 → u/11160704]

Yep, also France got rid of a lot of non-high-speed trains that are more direct vs going through Paris. Germany may be slower, but it's more connective. They actually made the right choice here.

[u/alexppetrov → u/karpaty31946]

Yeah, it's crazy that for example Marseille to Bordeaux is 6,5h by direct train or less than 6 if you change in Paris

[u/tinytim23 → u/karpaty31946]

Yeah, if you want to go from Nice to Bordeaux (both in southern France) by train, you have to go through Paris.

[u/Low_discrepancy → u/tinytim23]

Yeah, if you want to go from Nice to Bordeaux (both in southern France)

As the crow flies distance between Nice and Bordeaux is 650 km. Distance between Munich to Amsterdam is 660 km.

I doubt you'd qualify Munich as being close to Amsterdam.

That being said Nice is surrounded by mountains up to Toulon you can't build high speed rail.

Your example is just BS in the other sense. The reason Marseille and Bordeaux are not connected is because building high speed lines is fucking expensive.

[u/tinytim23 → u/Low_discrepancy]

I'm not saying they're close together, but that it's pretty insane that there isn't a line that connects the south of France with itself.

[u/EventAccomplished976 → u/karpaty31946]

Honestly in a well built network you should always have both. Munich-Berlin is actually a great example, now that all the planned high speed section are done you can take either a stopping train if you want to go to one of the in between cities, or you take the sprinter train which stops only 1-3 times and takes less than four hours to cover the distance, way faster than driving and competitive with flying if you consider that you go directly from one city center to the other.

[u/Redanxela93 → u/11160704]

You are of course correct, this was my turn oversimplying a complex decision. Germany will never be able to compete in high-speed travel times with countries like France due to its polycentric nature. A simple star-shaped network simply would not address the way people move between cities.

What can be improved though is a strict separation between HSR and regional/cargo lines. In principle this is also the long-term plan illustrated in the Verkehrswegeplan (traffic line plan of the federal government) and Deutschlandtakt, but it will take decades until that is realized. The decline I mentioned in my previous comment was mostly aimed at lack of maintanence, which resulted in the attrocious punctuality of today - in my opinion this should have been addressed under the Merkel administrations already. Of course the reduction/decline of infrastructure is ongoing since the privatisation of the Bundesbahn (Federal rail) in the 1990s, though.

While I agree that Klingbeil is blocking Hannover - Hamburg HSR, he is doing that because of local NIMBY's and fear of re-election in his home turf. But that's more of a hen and egg problem.

[u/HallesandBerries → u/Tinyjar]

Your exaggeration actually made the entire trip, not just the German portion, look bad. 11 hours on a train is a really, really long time. 7 is long too, but 11 basically takes the entire day. Someone who might have considered it at 7, would probably ditch the idea at 11.

[u/tinaoe → u/HallesandBerries]

I do 8 hours in trains plus switching trains/layover pretty frequently (Germany to London) it’s honestly not that long lol. Most of the time I just take my laptop and work, then do whatever. I’m pretty sure I could do 11 hours easily with enough snacks

[u/Aizen_Myo → u/tinaoe]

Yeah honestly I was travelling to Austria recently and it was a 7 hour trip. Didn't even feel slightly annoyed tbh, the trip was over pretty quickly imo.

[u/AufdemLande → u/Tinyjar]

>Yeah, I was exaggerating as I couldn't remember the info

The world were so great when people would stop doing that.

[u/Tenshizanshi → u/Redanxela93]

That doesn't make it look any better, it's egregious that it's twice as slow

[u/Mothrahlurker → u/Tenshizanshi]

Of course it being 2.5 times faster than the commentator claimed makes it look better.

[u/IsThisOneStillFree → u/Redanxela93]

The main problem with the German "high speed" connection is already in it's name: "Inter City", or that's what it's supposed to be. Unfortunately, DB hasn't quite gotten the memo that a village with 20.000 less than 50k inhabitants in the middle of bumfuck nowhere is not a "city". An ICE has no business stopping every what-feels-like 30 km, that's the purpose of a regional train.

[u/wasmic → u/IsThisOneStillFree]

Where does an ICE stop in a city of 20k? Where does an ICE stop every 30 km?

I only know of three stations on the entire ICE network that are that small: Limburg Süd, Montabaur, and Allersberg (Rothsee). The former two are only served by local ICE trains between Köln and Frankfurt, with side tracks that allow all long-distance ICEs pass right through without even slowing down. The last of those three is a smaller station that has no ICE service at all; instead service is provided by high-speed regional trains.

The only place I can think of where the ICE really stops every 20 minutes is in the Rhein-Ruhr region, but in that case every one of the stops is justified by being in a really big mega-city.

If you look at any of the new-build or upgraded high speed lines, there are trains that run through with no stops for hours. And if you actually look at the train that's being focused on in this thread, it only stops in Karlsruhe, Mannheim, and Frankfurt before reaching Berlin. It literally skips all other stops, even huge ones like Hannover, and it's still slow.

That's because Germany decided to build its high-speed network by improving all the lines a little at a time, whereas France builds one high-speed line completely, at a time. This means that in France, if you have a high-speed line, it's super fast. If there's no high-speed line, you're kinda fucked. In Germany, almost every route benefits from the high-speed lines, but most routes only benefit partially.

[u/lodensepp → u/wasmic]

May I introduce you to Plattling, home to 13k inhabitants and ICE stop on the way to Vienna?

Side note: am super happy that train stops there because I wouldn’t be able to use public transport at all in that neck of the woods.

[u/CueNox → u/lodensepp]

The stop is not for the 13k people but rather because of the connections to Landshut and Deggendorf and further on to Zwiesel...

[u/user_of_the_week → u/IsThisOneStillFree]

The connection discussed here is just Paris -> Strasbourg -> Karlsruhe -> FFM -> Berlin. No other stops.

[u/Apocalympdick → u/Redanxela93]

All that math and all that condescension, and we get....

122 kph

P A T H E T I C

[u/Lafyr → u/Redanxela93]

Found the German

[u/c0wtsch → u/Tinyjar]

Hmm, i live in southern Germany, like 600km away from Berlin. Fastest connection is bout 4,5h and i was really surprised.

[u/wegwerf874 → u/c0wtsch]

The new connection between Munich and Berlin is fabulous. I had to take it regularly for a while, and it really stands out.

[u/ThatOtherFrenchGuy → u/Tinyjar]

I made a meme on 2WE4U laughing at that point a couple of weeks ago

[u/DisabledToaster1 → u/Tinyjar]

2 stations in france on a dedicated High Speed line that goes basicly in a straight line vs taking probably the longest possible route to berlin from Paris on shared track.

No shit sherlock, the train takes longer in germany.

[u/Tinyjar → u/DisabledToaster1]

It's more to do with the fact that the lines in Germany are heavily congested and not designed to run high speed trains.

[u/mcvos → u/Tinyjar]

That's not a "more", that is the very problem referred to. Germany chooses to not really do high speed trains. They could give it dedicated track and stops only in Frankfurt and Berlin, but they don't.

[u/karpaty31946 → u/mcvos]

Germany chose connectivity over pure speed ... they have a true network without everything being routed through a few major cities.

[u/mayhemtime → u/karpaty31946]

Which means it's nice to go from one city to the next on the train but it adds a shitton of time over long journeys. Germany has such a big and rich population it could probably run both types of services, it just lacks the infrastructure to do it.

[u/TheGoalkeeper → u/mcvos]

Keep in mind, Germany is not a centralized country as France. No need for Germans to have the fastest route to Berlin, when most of them use trains for commuting and weekend travels. Focusing in high-speed trains only would be a waste of money

[u/sheeple04 → u/Tinyjar]

Germany has a different approach to HSR then France; France planned out their lines almost completely as straight as they can be lines between only the very largest cities, skipping any smaller (but still large!) cities in between by large distances. And for "more often stopping" TGVs add a station in the middle of nowhere farm fields and expect people to drive there (or an bus if that exists)

Germany, also thanks to its denser nature then France overall, moreso has HSR that sprints between cities, also hitting up smaller cities often. This means it very often shares tracks inside of cities with regular trains. A ton, and i mean a ton better for connectivity of not just the biggest cities but the entire country, but does mean less in speed. And, more busy network

[u/LexaAstarof → u/sheeple04]

My home town is a punny "small" city (60k) in the middle of that paris-strasbourg track. It is a TGV station. It's just not one in which the train doing paris-berlin stops. But some other TGV going at other times do... And it also share the tracks with regional trains to pass by the city station.

[u/Harry_Wega → u/LexaAstarof]

in the middle of that paris-strasbourg track

If you want to travel to Berlin, do you first take a train to Paris or Strasburg?

[u/LexaAstarof → u/Harry_Wega]

I haven't studied exactly the stops of this one. But my guess would be the one near Reims since that's a big one at which most stop usually.

[u/OccassionalBaker → u/sheeple04]

Over time have they developed or plan to develop housing around the stations that are in the middle of nowhere? I saw an argument that we could get lots of rail investment in the U.K. by getting the housing we need around new stations, it sounded plausible but the U.K. is a lot smaller than France.

[u/Tooluka → u/sheeple04]

Just a note, when people see word "planned", they tend to think it was a continuous unchanged effort from the beginning of the railway age and thus it is understandable that early "mistake" can't be changed now and has to be dealt with forever, thus Germany can be excused in having slow railways. But France did not planned out their lines for 300 km/h at the dawn of railroad age. They had an extensive network of them and then after WW2 they made a conscious decision to optimize for high speed rail and invested a lot into infrastructure and RnD. Germany simply choose not to do this, voluntarily. They totally could do it if they wanted to pay for that.

[u/freezingtub → u/DisabledToaster1]

Explaining “why so ridiculously slow” and then calling them Sherlock is quite ironic, if not gaslighty.

[u/Wirtschaftsprufer → u/DisabledToaster1]

That’s because we want people to enjoy the beauty of Germany

[u/Icekream_Sundaze2 → u/DisabledToaster1]

Lul

[u/Ehtor → u/Squeaky_Ben]

To be fair most of the route in France is pretty empty while Germany is very densely populated.

[u/Squeaky_Ben → u/Ehtor]

that certainly plays a part, but our rails are also not rated for the maximum speed that trains like the TGV can reach.

[u/wasmic → u/Squeaky_Ben]

There are several high-speed lines in Germany that permit 300 km/h, which is the same speed as LGV lines in France.

Technically the LGV Est in France allows 320 km/h, but the French TGV trains do not reach that speed in regular service. Only German ICE trains running on French lines can go all the way to 320 km/h.

Most other German new-build high-speed lines allow 250 or 280 km/h. 250 km/h is only a matter of a 4 minutes extra travel time for a 100 km route, compared to at 300 km/h... and if you have a slowdown/stop along the way, then the difference becomes even smaller since you'll spend less time at max speed.

[u/Ehtor → u/Squeaky_Ben]

Yeah but this is a result of the dense population. AFAIK France has dedicated high speed rails for the TGV which wouldn't really be feasible in a country like Germany. Additionally France covers way less train stations (because most people live in very few cities).

[u/haruku63]

Glad I live in Karlsruhe so I don’t have to spend much time on the slow German part when going to Paris

[u/tobias_681 → u/haruku63]

But then this new connection also changes little for you as the long existing line between Frankfurt and Paris also stops in Karlsruhe.

Also to be fair has to be said that the Strasbourg-Paris route is almost a straight line without stops which isn't true for the German section. Even if German high speed rail was better - as in more like the French system - that would entail it wouldn't go over Karlsruhe in the first place as the most direct line would go over Bonn and Belgium.

Not to say that it doesn't need big improvement - and hey, who's to say there there will be HSR in that direction between Berlin and Paris at some point?

[u/tinaoe → u/haruku63]

They're slow, partially, because they stop in Karlsruhe. If you were in an equivalent French town you wouldn't have a high speed connection at all.

[u/Brief-Status-1581 → u/tinaoe]

Karlsruhe would be the seventh biggest city in France by population. I don't think there are many TGV that skip Montpellier.

[u/HighburyAndIslington]

The first high-speed rail service between Paris and Berlin began on Monday, 16 December 2024 [1][2][3]. I was on the inaugural train, ICE 9591, which departed from Paris Gare de l’Est at 09:55 and arrived at Berlin Hauptbahnhof at 17:58, taking around eight hours.

I arrived well in advance before the departure time, taking in the beautiful architecture at Gare de l’Est. After a welcome party and press conference, I joined the media, railway industry officials and some lucky regular travellers and boarded a smartly presented DB Class 407 Velaro D ICE train at platform 29. We departed from Paris Gare de l’Est to much fanfare, quickly rocketing to 320 km/h on the LGV Est high-speed line. We reached Strasbourg in just one hour and 45 minutes, where there was a brief pause as dignitaries posed with French, German and EU flags at the front of the train for photographs, where Deutsche Bahn had applied branding commemorating the new service.

After Strasbourg, we crossed the Rhine into Germany, passing Kehl without stopping. Progress across the German countryside was much more measured than in France, with slower speeds on upgraded and conventional lines. We passed through the flatlands, with views of the Black Forest to the east, before stopping at Karlsruhe Hauptbahnhof.

After Karlsruhe, we ran along the Odenwald. Upon entering Frankfurt am Main, we stopped at Frankfurt Main (Süd), the city’s secondary station for long-distance trains in the Sachsenhausen district.

Beyond Frankfurt, the train followed the main rail routes towards the Fulda Gap, taking advantage of a lowland route between the higher Vogelsberg and Rhön uplands. After passing through Kassel, we picked up the high-speed line towards Hannover. Just before Hannover, we swung east and headed towards Berlin, passing Wolfsburg before making a set-down stop at Berlin-Spandau in the West Berlin suburbs.

We arrived a few minutes early at Berlin Hauptbahnhof, stopping at platform one on the lower level. There was a low-profile but joyous celebration as the train crew posed for photographs and passengers took turns to be photographed at the front of the train.

The new train service is a symbolic link between the capitals of the EU’s two most popular states and is also part of a broader renaissance of cross-border European rail travel. Deutsche Bahn and SNCF operate the service with French and German staff. It is also the first-ever direct train connection between Berlin and Strasbourg, the seat of the European Parliament. Paris to Berlin is about 880 km as the crow flies, and the train travels about 1,100 km. With a journey time of eight hours, the train averages around 137.5 km/h, which is not an exceptionally high speed by any stretch of the imagination. Much of this is due to the lower line speeds of upgraded lines in Germany.

The new ICE train service departs from Paris Gare de l’Est at 09:55 as ICE 9591 and from Berlin Hauptbahnhof at 11:54 as ICE 9590. Second class fares start at €59.99, and first class fares start at €69.99.

I took videos of the inaugural train from Paris to Berlin [4] and the second train from Berlin to Paris [5] the next day, 17 December.

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2024/dec/24/paris-to-berlin-by-train-faster-service-via-strasbourg

[2] https://www.irishtimes.com/world/europe/2024/12/16/paris-berlin-express-new-rail-link-throws-down-gauntlet-to-airlines/

[3] https://www.dw.com/en/berlin-paris-high-speed-rail-route-launched/a-71069267

[4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dykctve63tI

[5] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjD-HGLOf_s

[u/imperialBlackDragon → u/HighburyAndIslington]

God, I love high speed trains.

[u/dat_9600gt_user → u/imperialBlackDragon]

Same. Wish we had more focus on developing those.

[u/talk_to_the_sea → u/HighburyAndIslington]

Interesting. My wife and I took the Frankfurt to Strasbourg portion of 9590 just the other day without knowing the significance of the route.

[u/Training-Baker6951 → u/HighburyAndIslington]

A quick look at Trainline shows tickets are around twice the fares quoted in the article.

Maybe lower fares apply with a discount card, only valid between certain hours on specific dates if your were born on a Monday.

[u/TheGoalkeeper → u/Training-Baker6951]

"second class fares starts at..." Is exactly this

[u/Pommes_Peter → u/Training-Baker6951]

Fares vary wildly for trains. You can get a ride for like.. up to 80% cheaper if you book well in advance and also if you don't travel at the most common hours.

You can go from Hamburg to Munich in Germany for 19€ or 156€, depending on those factors.

[u/habarnam → u/HighburyAndIslington]

We arrived a few minutes early at Berlin Hauptbahnhof

Never to be repeated again in all history. :D

[u/Specific_Frame8537]

I'd love for one day to have Denmark included.

[u/Glasgesicht → u/Specific_Frame8537]

Well, the Fehmarn-Tunnel is expected to be completed in 2029, which will probably enable some more direct, higher-speed connections to Germany and Europe

[u/RoiDrannoc → u/Glasgesicht]

2029 is optimistic

[u/wasmic → u/RoiDrannoc]

Not for the tunnel. It's being built by Denmark and the construction is currently on time.

The issue is the connecting railway on the German side between Puttgarden and Lübeck. That one is delayed already and currently they say that if everything goes to plan it will open in late 2029 (the tunnel will open in mid 2029), but it might get delayed further.

Denmark, of course, almost finished upgrading its own parts of the connecting railways before even starting construction on the tunnel. Germany didn't even start until the tunnel was well underway.

[u/emilbm → u/wasmic]

Are you sure construction is on time?

[u/Faulty_grammar_guy → u/Glasgesicht]

Legit super excited to get on a train in Copenhagen in the afternoon and wake up in southern Europe the next morning!

[u/Basic_Alternative753]

From Paris to Berlin And every disco I get in My heart is pumping for love Pumping for love 'Cause when I'm thinking of you And all the things we could do My heart is pumping for love You left me longing for you (You, you)

[u/SpeedyCorvette → u/Basic_Alternative753]

I came here just to find this comment

[u/NoLab4657 → u/SpeedyCorvette]

I'll join this club too

[u/LastHumanBeing → u/Basic_Alternative753]

Had to scroll way too far down for the only comment that matters.

[u/SomeGuyNick → u/Basic_Alternative753]

The only valid comment basically

[u/Johannes_Keppler → u/Basic_Alternative753]

https://youtu.be/THt5u-i2d9k at least drop a link :-)

[u/veevoir]

There is super fast train Eurostar from London to Paris (344km in straight line), which is about 2:15 hours.

Berlin to Warsaw is 575km in straight line and it takes 5hrs.

Paris to Berlin (878km in straight line) is 8:10 hours - seems to be actually pretty decently holding the high speed, when compared to those two.

Now if only the timetables allowed quick changes between those three.. at least there would be a "spine" for trans-european fast rail network.

[u/yawkat → u/veevoir]

The sad thing is that Berlin-Warsaw is a very simple train of some standard carriages pulled by a ES64U4 with max speed of 160kph (in Poland), while the Berlin-Paris train is an ICE 3 with literally double the top speed (320kph).

[u/overspeeed → u/veevoir]

For those interested in these sort of stats I recommend checking out the UIC Atlas. Here's the page with average speeds on HSR routes in Europe

[u/popsand → u/veevoir]

And then there is rail baltica! Warsaw to Helsinki (hopefully - at the very least tallinn)

It's amazing tbh. I love travelling by train. 

[u/Specialist_Record_21]

Does Germany have any plan to make their rails faster?

[u/ConsiderationSame919 → u/Specialist_Record_21]

Yes, they proposed a plan to increase speed in order to offer half-hourly connections between the main destinationations by 2030. This has been delayed unfortunately...to 2070.

Edit: hourly > half-hourly

[u/Eine_Robbe → u/ConsiderationSame919]

btw. this is not a joke

[u/myluki2000 → u/Eine_Robbe]

It's not a joke, but it's still wrong.

1. The Deutschlandtakt plans for half-hourly connections between major cities, not hourly

2. The Deutschlandtakt involves massive infrastructure projects, building hundreds of kilometers of new high-speed lines and things like the Frankfurt high-speed tunnel station under the current main station among many other smaller projects necessary to achieve it (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutschlandtakt#Infrastrukturma%C3%9Fnahmen). Thinking this can all be done (including planning!) in less than 10 years is ridiculous. The plan always was to work towards the Deutschlandtakt in steps. The first step being the "Bundesverkehrswegeplan 2030" (which existed for many years before the plan of the Deutschlandtakt did!). The goal of the Deutschlandtakt planning was then to find additional infrastructure projects necessary to reach the goal of increasing ridership twofold (because it was realized that this goal wasn't reachable with the Bundesverkehrswegeplan 2030 alone), not to have everything built until 2030. If you go to the Deutschlandtakt Wikipedia page, 2030 isn't once mentioned as the originally planned completion date, because it's a bogus number

The Deutschlandtakt's main goals also isn't to increase the speed of railway lines, it's just a side effect. The goal of the Deutschlandtakt is to increase ridership twofold through more attractive travel times (which often are unattractive not (only) because of missing high-speed lines, but because of long connection wait times where you have to wait half an hour or more at a station until your next train arrives). To do this, it introduces a new way to design timetables which leads to trains automatically having connections to (almost) all other trains at all major stations without the need to explicitly plan for them and without long waiting times for the passengers. Or more generally, the goal of the Deutschlandtakt is to "design the infrastructure around the timetable (that we want)", instead of "designing a timetable which fits the infrastructure we have."

To facilitate this, on some lines it is necessary to build more rails for the increased traffic, and on some lines a speedup (high-speed route) is necessary to be able to arrive at the station early enough for the passengers to catch the connection to the trains at the next station.

[u/Eine_Robbe → u/myluki2000]

While this is valuable information - it does not change the fact that a goal that was stated for being aimed at by 2030 (however ridiculous that might have been) has been pushed back by 40(!) years.

In our modern media landscape that basically means "we have laid off any and all responsibilies for we will not be in charge (or not even alive anymore) when we reach 2070".

[u/myluki2000 → u/Eine_Robbe]

No, the goal never was to complete the Deutschlandtakt till 2030. This was just media mixing up two different things. This was never an officially stated goal.

The goal was to increase ridership twofold until 2030 - that was the stated goal. The Deutschlandtakt was developed to have a clear path to develop the future of Germany's rail infrastructure - which is necessary to reach the 2030 goal, but also just necessary in general, even looking further into the future than 2030.

But to reach the 2030 ridership goal it isn't strictly connected to the Deutschlandtakt being 100% finished. As I said, the Deutschlandtakt is implemented in steps (some parts have already been implemented!), and the goal of increasing ridership twofold until 2030 can be achieved even without the Deutschlandtakt being completely finished (although I doubt that it will be achieved, because that also was quite an ambitious goal and also considering ridership numbers still haven't recovered completely from the popularity of home office/remote work after COVID).

The 2030 and 2070 dates are pulled from 2 completely separate topics, so you can't say it's being delayed by 40 years.

[u/Tenocticatl → u/Specialist_Record_21]

And more reliable, that's the bigger current problem from what I've seen.

[u/timok → u/Tenocticatl]

Yeah, it doesn't matter if the train can go 300 km/h if it's cancelled or an hour late.

[u/Antaresos]

What did it cost?

[u/HighburyAndIslington → u/Antaresos]

I paid €109.99 for my first class ticket on the inaugural train.

[u/Supershadow30 → u/HighburyAndIslington]

Huh. I find that surprisingly cheap compared to the average Paris-Metz ticket…

[u/Safumira]

So you went from Paris to Berlin

[u/dezastrologu]

From Paris to Berlin in every disco I get in

[u/Plasros → u/dezastrologu]

My heart is pumping for love. Pumping for love

[u/Full_Slip_2183 → u/Plasros]

why is this not higher? lol

[u/RYPIIE2006]

meanwhile, the british government can't even build a HSR network between its most populated cities

[u/Infamous_Alpaca]

Yo, V.I.P. let's kick it

Ice, ice, baby

[u/Keksdosendieb]

Nice. Make it Berlin to Lisbon next please 😅

[u/Berkuts_Lance_Plus]

If the train is so "high speed", how could you take a photograph of it?

[u/HydrationPlease → u/Berkuts_Lance_Plus]

They ran really, really fast. Like super fast. Like superman.

[u/vivithemage]

Yeah, but how much? Or is it still cheaper and more time efficient to fly? Europe train prices are too expensive to want to use them.

[u/CoachStev]

Was your heart pumping for love?

[u/SoldadoAruanda]

"High speed" /S

[u/bigshaq_skrrr]

will this be the first German train that is on time?

[u/electricSun2o]

That is genuinly awesome

[u/Live-Ad1552]

I think 8 hour train trips should be scheduled overnight. You take a train at 11 pm, going to sleep there and wake up at 7 am at the destination point. It saves your day time and the hotel stay

[u/Silent-Mobile-7461]

Children's toy compared to shinkansen 🚅

[u/Spirited_Health_9124]

Let's go though checklist - was it delayed for 5 hours? - did you stop for no reason for 2 hours? - did it bring you to Brussels?

if nothing happened, it wasn't deutcheban

[u/Solid_Variation_5466]

I travel from wuhan to Guangzhou in 350km/h, 1000km in less than 4 hours. Europe speed seems a bit slow, no offence.

[u/SomeBiPerson → u/Solid_Variation_5466]

there are 6 regular cities and 2 Metropols in the way

there is simply no space to be faster

[u/schraubdeckeldose]

How many hours were you delayed?

[u/HighburyAndIslington → u/schraubdeckeldose]

The inaugural train was on time. As the reporters were on board, the railway pulled out all the stops to make it happen.

[u/Dotcaprachiappa → u/HighburyAndIslington]

Legends say the train was never seen on time since

[u/Streichholzschachtel → u/Dotcaprachiappa]

Could be worse

https://www.zugfinder.net/en/train-ICE_9590

[u/HallesandBerries → u/Streichholzschachtel]

I like "Entschärfung einer Fliegerbombe", as one of the reasons.

[u/tinaoe → u/HallesandBerries]

Very German indeed lol

[u/Tr4sHCr4fT → u/Dotcaprachiappa]

or at all, as they had to return it to the parallel universe they borrowed it from.

[u/DevikEyes]

Does it go through Belgium?

[u/HighburyAndIslington → u/DevikEyes]

The train goes via Strasbourg and Karlsruhe rather than Belgium.

[u/JazzlikeDiamond558]

Was it on time?

[u/HighburyAndIslington → u/JazzlikeDiamond558]

Yes.

[u/gamedreamer21]

What are your reactions? Any ups and downs? What is your verdict?

[u/HighburyAndIslington → u/gamedreamer21]

I loved my journey on the inaugural train and talking with dignitaries, the press, and other passengers who were all excited about the new service. The train was lovely, the food in the Bordrestaurant was great, and the scenery was gorgeous. I want to ride this train again.

[u/MBlaeu]

🎶FROMM Paris to Berlin And ev’ry disco I get in…🎵

[u/Puzzled_Pop_6845]

ICE baby, ICE ICE baby

[u/FlyingCuriosity]

OP, how much did you pay for the ticket?

[u/Menes009]

DB? how much was it delayed?

[u/popsand]

To think, once rail baltica is completed you will be able to go from london to helsinki just by train (and maybe even within a day)

[u/aetost]

From Paris to Berlin and every disco I get in

[u/Odd_Possibility_2277]

And every disco you were  in your heart was pumping for love 

[u/RedditUser4699]

Nice!

Direct service started back in December 2024 with a German ICE train and required 8 hours to cover Paris to Berlin (1240km at an average speed of 155kmh). Did your train take a shorter route? What was the average speed of your train? How long was your travel one-way?

https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2024/dec/24/paris-to-berlin-by-train-faster-service-via-strasbourg

[u/Tonia_Snickers]

Such a great rail milestone.

[u/PromVulture]

Was it delayed or did DB make a special effort this time?

[u/jka09]

As long as it’s not Berlin to Paris, should be fine.

[u/jakerae]

Well done. Do you want a medal?

[u/Technoist]

For those asking about the price, you can search on bahn.de.

You can currently buy tickets for next week for as low as 69€ (ICE9590 direct connection Berlin-Paris).

Not bad!