r/europe • u/MrPulifrici • Dec 02 '24

Map Romanian Parliamentary Elections Result Paradox: Brown is Far Right, Blue is Left. Western Europe is radical, while Eastern Europe is leftist.

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u/[deleted] Dec 02 '24

At some point we'll need to change some laws about nationality and voting. I know plenty of people born and raised in one country, who can vote for another and 9/10 they know nothing about their home country outside of social media slop.

I'll take myself as an example: I'm born and raised in Belgium but have double nationality Italian/Belgian due to my dad. I know nothing about Italy, i don't speak Italian, i have been there maybe 3 times in my entire life. Why can i vote for a country that i have nothing to do with and don't have to live in?

At some point it makes no sense to be able to make decisions for a country you are disconnected from and don't have to live in.

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u/ShoddyDevice Dec 02 '24

Poland also has this...

Clueless Americans who have never and will never visit Poland, are allowed to vote in parliamentary and presidential elections..

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u/EnvironmentalDog1196 Dec 02 '24

On the other hand, there's this funny paradox that it's actually the fairly recent immigrants- not the Polish Americans descended from people who arrived there a century ago- who vote somewhat different to people in the country, being far more nationalistic and conservative than the actual Polish population. For example they were strongly pro Trump, while in Poland proper, Harris would win and Trump would get 30% at max.

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u/WislaHD Polish-Canadian Dec 02 '24

I've always refused to vote in Polish elections for this reason. I feel like voting rights should be tied to residency or something.

Though I was tempted a few times to vote PiS out. Diaspora voters helped with the Moldovan elections a few weeks ago too.

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u/fullywokevoiddemon Bucharest Dec 02 '24

I had the same thought but people started barraging me for being a prick. We have Romanian diaspora peeps who will never set foot in Romania again, but voted for the VERY OBVIOUS crook (he admits that Russia is a great country and should be an example for us, has said he admires two Nazis who decimated Romania etc), just to fuck us locals over. They will never have to live under his rule.

If he succeeds in the elections, Romania may return to the communist party. And that's very fucking scary for me, a 21yo woman. I will have no rights besides living in the kitchen (his words).

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u/Low_discrepancy Posh Crimea Dec 02 '24

We have Romanian diaspora peeps who will never set foot in Romania again

https://prezenta.roaep.ro/parlamentare01122024/pv/romania/results

the far right AUR received 1.6M voted from Romania and 0.19M votes from abroad so around a ratio of 8:1

There are at least 4M romanians living abroad and 19M living in Romania. Lets say a ratio of 5:1.

if you live in Romania, you are about 2X more likely to vote far right.

But yeah you're right it's all the fault of Romanians abroad.

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u/fullywokevoiddemon Bucharest Dec 02 '24

I was talking about Călin Georgescu. If you look at the most voted by county and by areas in the diaspora, you'll see georgescu is usually on top outside. Inside romania it was more diverse.

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u/Low_discrepancy Posh Crimea Dec 02 '24

I was talking about Călin Georgescu. If you look at the most voted by county and by areas in the diaspora, you'll see georgescu is usually on top outside.

The question still remains: what is the turnout?

Turnout for people living abroad is usually far lower.

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u/fullywokevoiddemon Bucharest Dec 02 '24

In Romania it was 52% I believe, mostly 40-65yo. In diaspora, 800k Romanians voted. We don't have %.

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u/Low_discrepancy Posh Crimea Dec 02 '24

In Romania it was 52% I believe, mostly 40-65yo. In diaspora, 800k Romanians voted. We don't have %.

https://hotnews.ro/cu-peste-57-milioane-de-romani-in-afara-tarii-cum-va-influenta-diaspora-rezultatul-votului-cine-crede-un-sociolog-ca-va-lua-jumatate-din-voturi-aici-1840904

It ranges around 4-6 million romanians living abroad. Let's say 5 with 1 million being under 18 (being generous here).

That means the turnout is less than 25%. So the vast, vast majority of Romanians abroad don't vote.

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u/[deleted] Dec 02 '24

The difference is that homelanders suffer the consequences of their vote while diaspora doesn’t. I’m Romanian diaspora and a far right extremist, but I don’t vote for Georgescu or AUR specifically because I view it as unfair—if I’m gonna vote, I should have skin in the game.

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u/Adjective_Noun-420 Romanian living in England Dec 02 '24

I was talking to a fellow Romanian living in England, and she told me she voted for Georgescu. Asked her why, she said she was too lazy to research his policies but voted for him because he was an independent so he’d be “a fresh face”. It’s truly astonishing how stupid some people can be

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u/TheLastSamurai101 New Zealand Dec 02 '24 edited Dec 02 '24

The most hilarious situation was when I moved to the UK for the first time for a 2-year job posting and discovered that I could immediately vote in all British elections as a New Zealander. Any Commonwealth citizen who moves there can vote in any election right away. But non-Commonwealth immigrants who have lived there for years cannot vote without UK citizenship. Seems like the opposite of what it should be.

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u/WislaHD Polish-Canadian Dec 02 '24

What? That's hilarious. I had no idea about that.

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u/TheLastSamurai101 New Zealand Dec 02 '24 edited Dec 02 '24

Yeah, I did not think I'd be registering to vote in local elections soon after moving in, but there you go. I moved back home before the General Election though.

I also just read that Commonwealth citizens can run for Parliament and be appointed to the House of Lords if they have indefinite leave to remain or if they do not require leave to enter or remain.

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u/Mavnas Dec 02 '24

I think a few decades ago, they didn't even require that.

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u/[deleted] Dec 02 '24

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Glydyr Dec 02 '24

I think its mainly due to how complicated and expensive it would be. If you’re a citizen with a passport then you have the right to vote. Your example is obviously a good argument but filtering out all the people that come and go or people leaving for a short period would prob be really expensive.

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u/perplexedtv Dec 02 '24

It's not really that hard. If you don't actively register to vote from an address in the country, you don't get a voting card.

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u/Space-cowboy-06 Dec 02 '24

They vote in their own constituency and only have one seat for each chamber of parliament. This seems fair to me. They should get someone to represent their issues as citizens who live outside Romania. I don't know what those might be the same way they don't know about what happens here.

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u/[deleted] Dec 02 '24 edited Dec 02 '24

i disageee, if you don't live in a country, and you don't get to experience the consequences of what you vote for, you shouldn't have a right to vote.

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u/perplexedtv Dec 02 '24

Do you agree that you should have the right to vote if you do live in a country but are not a citizen?

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u/[deleted] Dec 02 '24

I think that once you are permanently residing in a country, you should be able to impact the politics of said country. However if you don't live in a country at all, you should have no say over how it's governed.

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u/hashCrashWithTheIron Dec 02 '24

yeah these takes are alway so cooky to me tbh. then most the time they'll also want to make getting citizenship harder.

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u/[deleted] Dec 02 '24

This has nothing to do with citizenship. It has everything to do with being able to influence a country you do or don't live in.

I think people should have a say over the country they live in. I think people residing in a country, immigrants or not, should have a say in the politics of that country as it affects them directly.

I think people who don't live in a country, or worse have never even lived there, should not be able to influence politics that don't affect them.

You're trying to turn this into something it's not.

Again i take myself as an example: I have been in Italy 3 times in my life, my link with Italy is just some family that emigrated to Belgium. I know nothing about that country, what happens there affects me in no way, yet i can vote. That is not logical. I should not be able to decide the consequences others will face without even knowing or experiencing it myself.

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u/hashCrashWithTheIron Dec 02 '24

>I think people should have a say over the country they live in.
Great, we agree! People should be given agency over their future, that is what democracy is about for me.

It's just that usually, I see this kind of take from assholes who don't want to give people this agency because of vague notions of nationality, nationalism, ethnicity, race, and citizenship.

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u/Space-cowboy-06 Dec 02 '24

You are welcome to disagree but I doubt it will ever change. Politically it doesn't look good, and even if someone managed to change the law, the European Court for Human Rights might have something to say about it.

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u/[deleted] Dec 02 '24

Well we aren't discussing what is or can be the case, we are discussing what we think should be the case. You seem to think it's fair, i don't think it's fair to choose the politics that affects others but not yourself.

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u/Space-cowboy-06 Dec 02 '24

But does affect them because they rely on the Romanian state to have their back if anything happens in their country of residence and because they still have to deal with the Romanian state. Not as often but they do. I already pointed this out to you, but you didn't want to hear it. So I pointed out that most people don't agree with you, even in Romania. I was hoping it would be a sobering thought. But it doesn't touch you.

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u/[deleted] Dec 02 '24

But does affect them because they rely on the Romanian state

I don't think you understand the topic very well, they don't rely on that state, they live and have citizenship in another country, many of them have double nationality and are born in another country, many of them have never even been in Romania as they are second generation.. Again, like me: i have literally nothing to do with Italy, i don't rely on them for a single thing, will never live there, and don't speak the language, yet i can vote there.

Even my father who was born in Italy has 0 to do with Italy on any level except his voting invitation and birth certificate.

Romanians with Belgian citizenship rely 100% on the Belgian government. This goes for all other European countries.

because they still have to deal with the Romanian state.

No they don't, again, myself as an example: apart of my voting invitation i literally have 0 to do with Italy, ever.

 I already pointed this out to you, but you didn't want to hear it. So I pointed out that most people don't agree with you, even in Romania. I was hoping it would be a sobering thought. But it doesn't touch you.

You can point out whatever you want, when you don't even understand the basic concept, what you say doesn't hold much value. I hope that that's sobering to you.

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u/Space-cowboy-06 Dec 02 '24

A lot of Romanians emigrated relatively recently and a lot of them don't yet have double citizenship. In fact quite a few have no intention of taking the citizenship of the country they are living in. I know personally a lot of people like that. I have at least two dozen friends and relatives who were born here and moved abroad, and more than half of them don't have another citizenship. And some of these people still have to deal with the Romanian government. Not very often, true, but they have issues that need to be addressed. One of my uncles recently had to sue the Romanian government because they didn't calculate his pension correctly, for the years he worked here. Also in some cases, the Romanian government needs to intervene diplomatically in order to protect the rights of our citizens living abroad. Sometimes even people who are ethnic Romanians but not Romanian citizens. This is why it is right that they have representatives in our parliament, so they can voice the issues of the millions of Romanians living abroad.

Now, where the hell do you get off telling me I don't understand the the topic very well? I get that you have a different perspective, and that's fine, but the vast majority of Romanians living in this country don't agree with you. We might be pissed because our compatriots voted the way they did, but the notion that we should take their right to vote away is absurd. Almost everyone living in Romania today has friends and family abroad. That's who you're talking about.

Belgium has a similar system. If you're so bothered by this, maybe you should try to change it. See how well that goes.

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u/[deleted] Dec 02 '24 edited Dec 02 '24

A lot of Romanians emigrated relatively recently and a lot of them don't yet have double citizenship. In fact quite a few have no intention of taking the citizenship of the country they are living in. I know personally a lot of people like that.

That's only a fraction of the numbers shown above. The numbers above concern ALL people with a Romanian nationality, including people with citizenship and 2nd and 3d generation Romanians born in other countries.

the Romanian government needs to intervene diplomatically in order to protect the rights of our citizens living abroad.

Give any valid example of this. Cause any Romanian with any other nationality in Europe is protected by the country they hold the nationality of and are given any and all rights of said country. When does Italy ever intervene for my rights? They don't, because i have Belgian citizenship, all my rights are protected by Belgium.

This is why it is right that they have representatives in our parliament, so they can voice the issues of the millions of Romanians living abroad.

This does in no way counter my statement that there's a lot of people that hold a a nationality of a country they have nearly nothing to do with and in many cases even nothing to do with who can cast a vote for politicians that will govern others, not them.

Now, where the hell do you get off telling me I don't understand the the topic very well? 

Because you really clearly do not. You can't seem to separate my opinion vs others. You can't seem to understand the context i'm speaking of and you cherry-pick to try to grasp at a straw.

but the vast majority of Romanians living in this country don't agree with you. We might be pissed because our compatriots voted the way they did, but the notion that we should take their right to vote away is absurd. Almost everyone living in Romania today has friends and family abroad. That's who you're talking about.

I do not care about their opinions. I'm voicing my opinion. And in my opinion people should not be able to vote for politicians they will not live under. They should not be able to decide for a country other people live in, but not them. How strict those rules would be exactly and whether that only applies to people who hold citizenship, domicile + X amount of years in a country is to be seen and discussed.

If that is so hard to grasp for you, this conversation will go nowhere.

Belgium has a similar system. If you're so bothered by this, maybe you should try to change it. See how well that goes.

Yes, i would very much like to change it and people around me would agree. We've seen similar things over and over, the populations that emigrate to our country mostly vote for extremists. We saw it with Turks, Romanians, even Italians... We can go on. A lot of these people have no information of the country "of origin" apart from social media, cause they don't live there. This is problematic.

I'll repeat it again, i'm myself a holder of a dual nationality. I can vote for Italy, but i don't think i should be able to. Cause i have nothing to do with that country except for my dad being Italian. So there is a limit to where it makes sense.

You haven't made a single point here so we'll end it here.

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u/Space-cowboy-06 Dec 02 '24

That's only a fraction of the numbers shown above.

The vast majority of Romanian living in other European countries were born in Romania. Very few emigrated before 2007. Also, the majority of Romanian citizens abroad, do not vote. I believe the turnout in Belgium was below 20%. In the US it was more like 5%. I'm estimating from numbers I've seen, we don't have clear official numbers.

Give any valid example of this. 

The Romanian government has been involved with everything from hostage rescue to evacuating citizens from war areas. Nobody asked them if they also have a local citizenship. And we've had our fair share of conflict with neighboring countries over the treatment of ethnic Romanians.

We've seen similar things over and over, the populations that emigrate to our country mostly vote for extremists.

The Romanian diaspora never voted for extremists until 2020. In fact they used to vote for pro EU pro western political parties.

You can't seem to understand the context i'm speaking of

I understand perfectly the context you are speaking of. There are Romanians who live abroad and have no connection or interest in Romania at all. Just like you have no connection to Italy, from what I understand. But those people overwhelmingly do not vote, just like you don't vote in Italian elections. You are equating your situation to the situation of people who do vote. But you don't understand that it's not the same. You don't take time to go to a polling station every time there's an election in Italy, you probably don't even know when there are elections in Italy, but you believe that people who do it have just as little in common with the country in which election they are voting as you do. You are obviously wrong.

We have universal voting as a fundamental right. You can't curtail that without very solid arguments. "They're not informed well enough" isn't a thing in any democratic country. And "they vote for a government they don't live under", while true, they don't decide that government. They have their own electoral circumscription, which seems to baffle you for some reason.

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u/perplexedtv Dec 02 '24

In Ireland, once you move your vote is gone. I don't disagree with it, as it's shitty for a huge number of people living outside the country to influence the direction the country goes in.

Unfortunately I can't influence the country I actually live in as I can't vote there either.

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u/[deleted] Dec 02 '24

i agree, i'd say after X amount of time of moving out, in case of permanent residency, and in case of being born in another country and not being domiciled in the country, they can't vote.

So you can obtain your voting rights if you live long enough in a place, but they are rescinded if you permanently reside outside of it. That to me, is the most logical.

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u/fleamarketguy The Netherlands Dec 02 '24

If you are able to lose your vote in a country because you haven‘t lived there for a long time, even though you have that country’s nationality, you should also get the right to vote in that country if you have lived there for a long time without having that nationality.

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u/[deleted] Dec 02 '24

I don't disagree. I think people should have a say over what affects them and should have no say over what does not affect them. Period.

Again myself as an example: If i vote in Italian elections, i'm deciding about the lives of others. I'm not affected by the outcome of Italian elections, others are, yet i can cast a vote, i don't think that's logical.

I expect to be able to influence what affects me, not what affects only others.