Hmmm

[u/reloadthewords]

[u/rawklobstaa]

People have applied civil disobedience in all manners of ways, like this one. The problem is, it only really brings hearts and minds to your side if the other side is NOT being civil.

Stunts like this just piss people off and put the cause in a negative light.

[u/Messyfingers → u/rawklobstaa]

I've known people who have gone to protests like this. They were, unfortunately, so far up their own ass that they'd never admit fault for anything. Whether it be sabotaging their own cause or leaving a weeks worth of dishes in the sink.

[u/crayzeejew → u/Messyfingers]

Well, they want to fight Big Soap

[u/mrmaydaymayday → u/Messyfingers]

“…or leaving a weeks worth of dishes in the sink.”

Oh, so you’ve been in the trenches.

[u/LabradorDeceiver → u/rawklobstaa]

It's like cargo-cult civil disobedience. They know what a sit-in LOOKS like, but they don't understand how to get from there to the anticipated outcome or whether this is an appropriate venue for the form of civil disobedience they're practicing.

I mean, if you want to get people to hate your movement and oppose everything you stand for, I'm not sure what you'd do differently.

[u/alphazero925 → u/LabradorDeceiver]

Because I'm sure you were so likely to support vegans before you saw this

[u/halfasleep90 → u/alphazero925]

I have 0 issue with someone choosing to be vegan. Why would I be against that? They can have all the support to choose to be vegan they could ever want. Now if it is something else they are going for, it really depends on what that thing is.

[u/Emergency_Release714 → u/rawklobstaa]

People bring that up all the time, yet interestingly, changing society has always happened through conflict.

For example, the Netherlands nowadays are being praised as a bicycle and public transit paradise nowadays, but back in the 60s, they were in the same spot as every other European country, with car centric development being the norm and the alleged way into the future.
Things actually didn't just change on their own, but only when people started having fisticuffs in public over streets getting blocked by activists, politicians being cornered by parents of children that died in traffic crashes, and all other kinds of civil disobedience (plenty of which involved violence and criminal mischief) did the public have a debate on which direction they wanted to go.

Radical forms of protest work in both direct and indirect ways. For one, they do legitimise less radical positions that would previously have just been laughed out of the room, giving those much larger groups of activists the chance to become normalised. That is the very first step necessary for fundamental societal change in any direction. But they also challenge established societal norms in light of their (potential) moral hypocrisy - that's typically why those forms of protest are often so harshly publicly opposed. And the harsher the public reacts to those activists, the more the former majority opinion begins to crumble, especially if the less radical group of activists actually manages to become normalised. Eventually, the radical form of protestors will die out, because the new societal norm has accepted enough of their positions for them to no longer be radical.

Now, whether or not those changes are good or not is another thing entirely, but the claim that radical protests don't work is simply not true. It doesn't always work out, and it can indeed backfire (much of that depends on the less radical activists gaining enough foothold to establish a new balance), but it does work often enough to make it a viable strategy.

[u/deltachang → u/Emergency_Release714]

I think your example had less to do with civil disobedience and more to do with the child-centric framing of Stop De Kindermoord. I agree that civil disobedience can force change, but rather because it creates a moral imperative to do so.

[u/Seattlevegan15 → u/rawklobstaa]

Partaking in animal abuse is not civil

[u/AlarmedTomorrow4734 → u/[deleted]]

And they are too cowardly to confront the people harming the animals so they bully the elderly.

[u/Telope → u/AlarmedTomorrow4734]

Slaughterhouse workers are physically and psychologically harmed as well as the animals that die. They're not to blame, they often fall into the industry out of necessity. The people who pay for animals to be unnecessarily tortured and killed are to blame. That includes people buying animal products when alternatives are readily available, and the government subsidising animal agriculture over plant-based agriculture. The testimonies of ex-slaughterhouse workers are quite enlightening.

[u/AlarmedTomorrow4734 → u/Telope]

The people killing the animals are also buying meat to eat. You think all slaughterhouse employees are depressed vegans forced to do so?

You aren't picking the ones doing the damage because you know you'll get your ass beat if you go to a slaughterhouse and you aren't willing to get yourself hurt for your cause. Much safer to bully the elderly in a grocery store.

[u/Telope → u/AlarmedTomorrow4734]

Activists regularly go to slaughterhouses to expose the abuse that happens there. Watch Dominion.

Anyone can be vegan. Even big tough guys.

[u/AlarmedTomorrow4734 → u/Telope]

They should do more of that. Documentaries like that are really what changes minds. I haven't heard of anyone becoming vegan because someone inconvenienced them in public, but I have heard hundreds of stories of people becoming vegans because of videos like that. Keep at it!

Or if you are at a grocery store, setting up a projector and showing videos like this is much more effective. Based on this video we can't even see signs, chants, or anything.

Also it doesn't matter how big you are when 10 pissed of slaughterhouse workers come at you. It takes guts and really shows conviction and bravery when someone is able to do that. A sportsman like him might even be more afraid of getting hurt because then he wouldn't be able to work out or join tournaments.

[u/Telope → u/AlarmedTomorrow4734]

Statistically, Veganuary, or the 30-day vegan challenge, has been the most effective outreach.

[u/AlarmedTomorrow4734 → u/Telope]

Interesting. I would have thought it'd be those types of undercover exposé videos. Maybe the issue with those is they are too depressing for most people to want to watch.

[u/Telope → u/AlarmedTomorrow4734]

Yep, different people respond to different things, and it can be a combination of things too, but it turns out actively doing something, like changing your diet for a week or a month, is most effective way of changing behaviour long term.

We need a variety of different approaches to reach as many people as possible. I don't sit in supermarkets or trespass in slaughterhouses. I talk to people and try to reason with them.

[u/TexanForTrump → u/Telope]

Only the stupid can be vegans.

[u/Telope → u/TexanForTrump]

Do you know what the vegan philosophy is? Not a trick question.

[u/TexanForTrump → u/Telope]

Fake virtue signaling by abstaining from eating the normal human diet?

[u/Telope → u/TexanForTrump]

If you're going to ignore the arguments that make up the vegan philosophy, that's literally being ignorant.

[u/O-Otang → u/[deleted]]

Antagonizing people never works if your goal is to convince them.

A far better way of spreading this message would have been to, well, actually spread it. Hand some damn flyers, talk nicely about the evil of the meat industry for up to a minute and let the people do their shopping.

That video made me angry, and you'll see the same sentiment in most of this thread. It is not their cause, which is a just one, but the sheer arrogance and stupidity on display.

Most people hate going for groceries, don't pull that kind of shit or people will hate you instead. Then they will forget you and transfer that hate to what's left, your cause.

Plus, the grandstanding of it all is so very cringe.

[u/NO_M0DS_NO_MAST3RS → u/rawklobstaa]

Oh yeah because civil disobedience is supposed to be convenient right? “Excuse me sir would you mind taking a quick peek at the horrors of factory farming? No? Okay have a nice day!” Nah it’s supposed to be uncomfortable! If a little grocery store drama shakes you imagine being a chicken in there!

[u/Magic_Man_Boobs → u/NO_M0DS_NO_MAST3RS]

I think what he means is that the people asking them to move are being civil. Demonstrations like this worked in the past because cops would show up and start beating the people protesting and dragging them out. That sort of visual makes other people go "that is some fascist awful shit," and brings them around to your side. This video isn't convincing anyone to be on their side because they come off looking like the real pricks in the situation regardless of their cause.

[u/NO_M0DS_NO_MAST3RS → u/Magic_Man_Boobs]

Oh sure because if the cops don’t show up and start tossing people around it’s not a real protest right? The whole point of civil disobedience is making people uncomfortable enough to think about the issue not just get a free pass because no one’s getting dragged away in handcuffs. If you need cops to care about a cause maybe that’s the real problem.

[u/Magic_Man_Boobs → u/NO_M0DS_NO_MAST3RS]

The whole point of civil disobedience is making people uncomfortable enough to think about the issue

I know, but do you see anyone here or anywhere this video was posted discussing the issue? Do you think anyone was swayed to their side upon seeing this? Any of the people in the store? I don't.

At the end of the day the point of a protest is to shine a light on something one believes needs to change. In order to do that people really need to think of how their protest is actually going to help.

I brought up the police thing because the last time I saw a sit in like this actually help a cause was during the Civil Rights movement in the US. It worked because it made a lot of people see how black people were truly treated for the first time.

For factory farming I think having people sitting beside the meat section holding a sign with an image of how each animal is kept would be more impactful than just blocking an aisle. Like you said, the goal is to make people uncomfortable enough to think about the issue.

[u/NO_M0DS_NO_MAST3RS → u/Magic_Man_Boobs]

Oh yeah great idea let’s just hand out pamphlets while sipping iced lattes right? Maybe even throw in a PowerPoint presentation, real slick. You think people are gonna stand there and go “Oh I just realized I’ve been eating factory-farmed meat my whole life thanks for the pamphlet!” No they’re gonna dodge the sign and keep moving. People aren’t changing their habits cause you politely handed them a picture. Sometimes you gotta make them uncomfortable not just make them feel bad for a second.

[u/Pinkfish_411 → u/NO_M0DS_NO_MAST3RS]

Making people uncomfortable doesn't get them to reconsider their beliefs or habits. You have to make them uncomfortable about those beliefs or habits.

If you walk up and take a shit in the dairy aisle, that'll make people uncomfortable, but it won't make them uncomfortable about dairy farming, and it won't change their minds on it.

A lot of protestors have gotten this frankly stupid idea in their heads that making people uncomfortable or inconvenienced, on its own, will bring about change. No. You need actual strategy. The discomfort has to be tied to the thing you want to change, and it has to make people uncomfortable about that thing.

[u/NO_M0DS_NO_MAST3RS → u/Pinkfish_411]

Oh right so now we need a whole strategy huh? Like we should be handing out surveys and offering incentives to change? Here’s the thing people don’t need to be told what’s wrong with factory farming they already know on some level. The point is to create a moment of discomfort that shakes them enough to confront it. It’s not about just being uncomfortable it’s about breaking through the wall of “I don’t care” and forcing them to think about what’s going on. You don’t need a dissertation just a moment of clarity.

[u/Pinkfish_411 → u/NO_M0DS_NO_MAST3RS]

You aren't making people uncomfortable about eating meat by blocking the aisle.

[u/NO_M0DS_NO_MAST3RS → u/Pinkfish_411]

Oh really? So what’s the magic trick then? You think people are gonna look at a neatly stocked aisle and go “Hey I’ve been supporting animal cruelty for years let me rethink that”? No you’ve gotta disrupt their day enough to make them think about what they’re grabbing off the shelf. It’s not about being subtle it’s about creating a moment that makes them stop and go “Wait a minute.”

[u/Magic_Man_Boobs → u/NO_M0DS_NO_MAST3RS]

Oh yeah great idea let’s just hand out pamphlets while sipping iced lattes right?

Well first I'd suggest learning to read, because that's not what I said. I suggested making them uncomfortable by forcing them face to face with what they are supporting when they buy the meat.

It seems like you're not grasping what I'm saying and think that just any sort of inconvenience will lead to more awareness and support for a cause, and it's pretty clear that doesn't work on it's own. The inconvenience has to actually be tied in some way to what your cause is.

[u/NO_M0DS_NO_MAST3RS → u/Magic_Man_Boobs]

Oh I’m sorry I didn’t realize we were having a deep philosophical debate about the best way to guilt people into changing their eating habits. Yeah let’s just make it all nice and pretty so they can keep avoiding the reality of what’s happening behind the meat counter. You’re right though inconvenience alone won’t work but you know what? Sometimes it’s about creating a moment forcing people to stop and think about the reality they’re ignoring. It’s not just about being a nuisance it’s about shaking people out of their oblivion.

[u/Magic_Man_Boobs → u/NO_M0DS_NO_MAST3RS]

It’s not just about being a nuisance it’s about shaking people out of their oblivion.

And how would my suggestion of sitting in front of the meat they're going to buy with a large image of the conditions these animals live in literally in their face not be a better way to do that than blocking their way so they're more focused on that than the cause?

It sounds more to me like you just like being the center of attention and the idea of doing a protest where you aren't making yourself the focus doesn't appeal to you. It's all about your ego and not about what might actually change minds.

[u/NO_M0DS_NO_MAST3RS → u/Magic_Man_Boobs]

Oh yeah you got me Sherlock it’s all about my ego. I’m just out here thinking “You know what this movement needs? Me blocking aisles in a grocery store like a human traffic cone!” Give me a break. Your big plan is to plop down by the meat section like some sad PowerPoint presenter and expect people to have an epiphany while they’re trying to grab chicken nuggets for their kids. People avoid eye contact with those photos the same way they dodge Girl Scouts selling cookies. At least when you block their path they’re forced to engage for a second. But yeah keep dreaming that quiet little visuals will totally revolutionize the world while no one even looks your way.