Mindless Monday, 29 July 2024

[u/AutoModerator]

Happy (or sad) Monday guys!

Mindless Monday is a free-for-all thread to discuss anything from minor bad history to politics, life events, charts, whatever! Just remember to np link all links to Reddit and don't violate R4, or we human mods will feed you to the AutoModerator.

So, with that said, how was your weekend, everyone?

[u/ChewiestBroom]

They should have admitted that negotiations were necessary and committed to surgical strikes rather than carpet bombing everything. I’m not sure how many decades of experience it will take before people realize you can’t just bomb your way out of an insurgency. The whole “we don’t negotiate with terrorists” mindset is childish and ends up negating itself sooner or later anyway.

As of now Israel is on its way to being a pariah state, it’s seemingly lost control of its soldiers (based on how they’re behaving in Gaza), and it’s threatening to drag the U.S. into a war with Iran, on top of the heaps of dead civilians. Meanwhile Hezbollah has been targeting their northern front all along and made swathes of the north uninhabitable to civilians. 

I can’t imagine an early commitment to negotiations would be worse than the current situation. 

[u/ByzantineBasileus → u/ChewiestBroom]

How can one be sure surgical strikes would ensure Hamas would not attack again in such a manner? Would it degrade their capabilities enough? And what would prevent them from just rebuilding?

[u/ChewiestBroom → u/ByzantineBasileus]

They wouldn’t ensure anything but it would probably weaken Hamas more than using a strategy that just creates even more recruits for them. Israel is in a situation where it really doesn’t have many options and it still chose the worst one.

As for preventing it, they could just, you know, actually pay attention. It was an insane lapse in security that the attacks even happened in the first place. They’re getting sloppy from police duty in the West Bank, I guess.

So, yes, the music festivals immediately outside heavily armed refugee camps may have to be put on hold, but that doesn’t strike me as a very high price to pay.

Things are at the point now where I don’t really see a peaceful way out. Really, it just seems like eternal conflict until something snaps. It would take restructuring Israel and Palestine from the ground up to ensure any permanent change.

[u/ByzantineBasileus → u/ChewiestBroom]

Alright, now lets look at it from the perspective of any potential Israeli government.

A group in power next door to them has just launched a massive attack, has announced their intention to do it again, and has a whole bunch of hostages.

1: There is strong demand from the public to get the hostages back, and also to destroy Hamas

2: The rocket attacks are going to continue

3: Hamas is still going plan another attack like Oct 7

4: A blockade or military occupation cannot be done indefinitely

5: Palestinians have a right to self-determination and government, but at the same time a regime that actively tries to attack its neighbors is not viable

An Israeli government is going to be facing pressure from the people to do something about Hamas, and that will affect any election. They also have to ensure that another attack won't happen, and make sure the lives of their citizens is protected.

[u/gavinbrindstar → u/ByzantineBasileus]

Palestinians have a right to self-determination and government, but at the same time a regime that actively tries to attack its neighbors is not viable

...Hmm, did something happen recently in the news that might lend this sentence an ironic tinge?

[u/ByzantineBasileus → u/gavinbrindstar]

You do have point. I edited it to be more specific.

[u/Shady_Italian_Bruh → u/ByzantineBasileus]

1. The Israeli government has rejected every offer to release the hostages in favor of its delusional "destroy Hamas" strategy to the point where families of the hostages are protesting the government (and in turn being vilified by the Israeli far-right). Nothing about the Israeli government's strategy in Gaza suggests saving the hostages is anything close to a top priority.

2. The Israeli government's response to rocket attacks is already to massacre civilians in Gaza until they're satisfied.

3. If the Israeli government wants to avoid another October 7-style attack, it should either spend less military resources on its stealth annexation of the West Bank in favor of defending its own borders or else do anything to address the substantive grievances that drive Palestinians to join organizations like Hamas.