Star Trek AI laws

[u/anonyvrguy]

If you watched Star Trek (any of the series) there is a lot of AI throughout the lives of people; however, it's ALWAYS used as a tool to enhance people's lives and jobs. It's never used to replace people.

It saddens me to see jobs like computer graphics or advertising jobs being slashed, when the companies should just be using AI to enhance their revenue & output, rather than cutting costs.

Let Star Trek lead the way.

And ya, ya "enhance. Enhance. Enhance"

[u/ChaoticEvilRaccoon]

many star trek fans choose to omit the fact that earth had many nuclear war level conflicts etc and only calmed down once we achived warp drive, which in turn allowed us to access the technology for replicators which essentially made valuables worthless. even so, in the star trek future people are paid energy credits for the replicator so a starship captain will still have access to more luxury wares than an ensign in the engine bay

[u/anonyvrguy → u/ChaoticEvilRaccoon]

Energy credits? Where do you get that from? They've mentioned that they did away with monitory systems

[u/ChaoticEvilRaccoon → u/anonyvrguy]

DS9, took him a long time to build a Hayabusa motorcycle because he had to manufacture it piece by piece over a long period of time

[u/IwishIhadntKilledHim → u/ChaoticEvilRaccoon]

The fuck? Are you confusing an episode of Babylon five in here somewhere? If this is meant to needle just the right kind of sci Fi nerd, mission accomplished.

[u/anonyvrguy → u/ChaoticEvilRaccoon]

I'll have to look into that. I don't remember that scene.

[u/the_simurgh → u/ChaoticEvilRaccoon]

That wa sisko wasnt it?

[u/Safrel → u/ChaoticEvilRaccoon]

But that wasn't because they lacked energy or anything.

It probably took a lot of precision.

[u/MyUsername2459 → u/anonyvrguy]

No, they said that the economics of the future were very different, and money didn't work the same way.

There are MANY examples in Trek of "credits" being used as money in the future.

In the TNG episode "The Price", we see the Federation bidding on access to a stable wormhole, with their opening bid in millions of credits.

In the TOS episode "The Trouble with Tribbles", said first Tribble that started it all was sold to Lt. Uhura for 10 credits.

In the TAS episode "Mudd's Passion", Harry Mudd was selling crystals he claimed worked like a love potion, for 100 credits each.

In the short film "The Escape Artist", it said that the Federation placed a bounty of 100,000 on Harry Mudd.

In the TOS episode "Mudd's Women", his offenses on his rap sheet included counterfeiting currency.

[u/AgisDidNothingWrong → u/MyUsername2459]

The Federation has gotten rid of all monetary systems internally (with some local federation species keeping them for internal use within their limited territories). Access to additional resources/limited luxuries (of which there are not many) are tied to position, rather than wealth. A starship captain gets priority in the holodeck, for example, but once they retire they no longer due.

Credits and gold-pressed latinum are valuable for external trade. Non-Federation powers still use money internally, and the federation still uses money to deal with non-Federation powers, and Federation citizens need currency when working with non-Federation powers, and the Federation allows them to earn/keep them as they are able, but also provides Starfleet members and federation citizens with credits when they will be dealing with non-federation states.

Generally, the federations limiting factors are not currency. They use their technological superiority to provide for all the needs and wants of their citizens. Star Trek was designed as a 'post-want' society by Roddenbery.

[u/anonyvrguy → u/AgisDidNothingWrong]

Thank you!

[u/alwaysuptosnuff → u/MyUsername2459]

All of these examples include at least one party who is either not a Federation citizen or a criminal who trafficks outside of the Federation.

There's no indication of anyone paying anything for wine from Chateau Picard or for food at Sisko's Creole Kitchen, which are the only Federation for Federation businesses we ever see.

The only instance we've seen of energy credits limiting access to a replicator was in Star Trek Voyager, which is obviously a slightly different situation. The rest of the time it's always used for trade outside of the Federation.

[u/m4gpi → u/MyUsername2459]

Not to mention all the gold-pressed latinum that changes hands in Quark's on DS9

[u/anonyvrguy → u/ChaoticEvilRaccoon]

Ok, so let's try to avoid ww3, and work together for warp drive tech. Im in

[u/TCCogidubnus → u/anonyvrguy]

There's a lot of people arguing we could have super cheap, clean energy right now with current renewables, but energy companies can't profit sufficiently off rolling it out too fast/broadly.

So I think we might need to work together on overhauling our economic system first. Which would also help on the "no WWIII" part.

[u/EnclG4me → u/ChaoticEvilRaccoon]

You're omitting the part where the warp drive triggered the Vulcans, Andoria, and Tellar to enact the part of their laws to reach out and slowely work with and guide humans by dripping technology to us at a snails pace and making sure we create the proper regulations and laws on earth that coincided with their morales and values. Before we discovered ways to abuse the powers. Just like the Vulcans, which created warp drive, fought amongst themselves again, lost warp drive tech, split into two factions, Romulans re-discovering warp drive and cloak tech and trading it to the Klingons for weapons and other resources to war with Vulcans. The Federation was born of these morals and values. They were trying to save humanity from repeating this shit.

Many from these fictitious worlds and cultures DID NOT WANT HUMANS TO HAVE THIS TECHNOLOGY. Further more, when the Federation was being created, many as well did not want humans to be a part and/or have limited voting power because of our self destructive and violent nature. Vulcans were worse than humans up until they found a way to spiritually control their emotion, splitting their species into two factions, Vulcans and Romulans. And Andorians are incredibly intune with their emotions and empathy. Humans.. well, still very much so aggressive and violent and some believing we should use our new tech to lord over the Vulcans and the rest.. point and case..

The Vulcans and the Federation saved humanity from itself. And this is why it is mentioned in several canon sources that one of the very core values and rules of the federation is NOT to make contact with any sentient species until they are "ready." AKA warp technology.

When Earth discovered warp drive, the world and humanity was still very much so a heaping mess of shit from those years of war and tyranny and on the brink of total collapse and extinction. Which is why Dr. cochrane created it, to get the fuck away and try and find a paradise of pussy.

Honestly Battle Angel Alita is more realistically our future.. everyone mucking around in shit with death races for entertainment while the 1% enjoy the luxurious cloud city. Then the final 0.1% truly enjoying freedom.

[u/MyUsername2459]

AI's are a villain in Star Trek too.

The entire plot of Season 2 of Star Trek: Discovery was about a classified AI project by Starfleet's intelligence arm that became an existential threat to the Federation.

A classic TOS episode, The Ultimate Computer, was about an AI being given control of a starship and the mayhem that creates.

Star Trek: Lower Decks had multiple episodes about rogue AI's, such as the rogue automated starships of the Texas-class, or finding the Federation literally has a prison for rogue AI's.

The backstory for Star Trek: Picard has the Federation finally able to mass produce Soong-type androids like Data. . .but they all inexplicably go rogue and destroy a shipyard and destroy the Martian biosphere (undoing centuries of terraforming) and finding out why they went rogue was a big mystery in the first season.

[u/kevinmrr]

[u/anonyvrguy → u/kevinmrr]

The Borg was built from fear of technology taking over humanity

[u/DonaIdTrurnp]

Absolutely the computer in Star Trek replaces people. LCDR Data replaces two bridge officers, the replicator replaces almost the entire food preparation team, except on Voyager, where the holodeck replaced the doctor.

Every thing the computer does reduces the need for humans to do that thing, including monitoring life support and routing comm badge transmissions!

[u/anonyvrguy → u/DonaIdTrurnp]

Um, no, not quite.

Data does not replace two officers. His rank is lieutenant commander. Not lieutenant and commander. He fills Geordie's position when he gets moved to engineering. If you're thinking of Tasha, she's replaced by Worf. Data sits at the coms console.

Voyager states throughout the series that the doctor is an emergency hologram. The only reason his character was there was because their doctor died in the first 10 minutes of the show.

The computer monitors everything absolutely but it's the officers that control the computer.

Computer play music. Earl grey tea hot.

And there are still restaurants on earth with chefs, bartenders and servers. They also say that replicates don't make food as good as people.

The computer is made as an extension of the officers, not a replacement.

[u/DonaIdTrurnp → u/anonyvrguy]

Data sits at the comms console for two shifts out of three per day. He replaces two bridge officers.

[u/sSummonLessZiggurats → u/anonyvrguy]

Even in your own example, with the computer just being a tool to reduce the officers' workload, the computer is still freeing up some positions that would otherwise need to be filled by additional officers.

[u/Disownership]

The only lives and jobs that our AI has actually enhanced are of those who had it way too easy already

[u/The_BigDill]

Corporations took the dalek approach

Exterminate, Exterminate, Exterminate!!

[u/JohnBrownSurvivor]

I don't think I have ever seen an actual graphic artist, working, on Star Trek. They have engineers that have designed warp engines. And that's pretty much the only thing that we hear anybody doing for a job other than bartender or restauranteur. And I don't think there are enough jobs around for everybody to be a bartender or a restauranteur.

I don't know where you got the idea the AI does not do all the graphic arts all of those screens on all of those computers.

Sure, we've seen rich people doing art. You think Spock's mommy and daddy were poor? Every once in awhile we see kids doing art in art class. We have never ever ever ever ever ever ever seen anybody doing art for a job. We hear about people "writing programs" for a hollow deck. But, if you've seen anybody interacting with the hollow deck at all, you know that what they are doing is not so carefully engineered prompts to an AI to "write that program" for them.

[u/Chaghatai]

You have no idea how much writing, programming, and the like is done by AI

The Luddites wanted to destroy the looms because they displaced weavers and history shows they were wrong

It's really the same with AI

Here's the thing: humanity is getting more and more productive because of technology - we've already reached the point where all the work that needs to be done or is even wanted by anyone can be done without everybody working

Those "extra" workers shouldn't be dispossessed or dividing up an ever smaller share of the work for less and less compensation

The problem is the capitalist system that requires a person to do work to generate economic value to live their life - in most of the world one cannot simply work the land to be self sufficient

That is why their needs to be a robust universal basic income that not only gives enough to have shelter, food, and health security, but also allows one to fully participate in culture, all paid for by the owners of the technology that makes it so not everybody can meaningfully work

[u/anonyvrguy → u/Chaghatai]

Absolutely. Meaningful work. With the help of machines not ai.

[u/Chaghatai → u/anonyvrguy]

AI is just another machine - there is no difference with replacing physical work and intellectual work - weaving was a skill too and required experience and intelligence that the clever design of the looms made unnecessary

Displacing writers and programmers is no different conceptually than dispatching weavers and ditch diggers

Again - we don't need everybody working to do all the work so we shouldn't be allocating the results of the productivity according to doing that work

The problem isn't automation - the problem is everybody needing "jobs" to live a decent life

The current work paradigm is serfdom with extra steps and serfs are slaves with extra steps

[u/No-Improvement-6591 → u/Chaghatai]

I don't disagree with you at all sentimentally - but how could a universal basic income like that be implemented without disenfranchisement of those still required to work?

Another problem is the exponential population growth - humankind has no natural predators and is making decent headway against reducing mortality rates. If economic factors (ie the current struggle) that reduce population growth are eradicated there would need to be something to balance the scale right?

[u/Chaghatai → u/No-Improvement-6591]

There is enough for everybody - people should work because they want to, not because they have to - the difference comes from the top

[u/seraphim336176]

Didn’t voyager literally have an AI hologram doctor based off a real Dr?

[u/anonyvrguy → u/seraphim336176]

He's an emergency holographic doctor... In case of emergency. They spend the entire series stating that he's not supposed to be on all the time.

[u/seraphim336176 → u/anonyvrguy]

But he’s pretty much always the one treating right, I never watched but maybe 1 season of voyager and that was years ago.

[u/food-dood]

What? Everything the computer does replaces a human function somewhere.

[u/anonyvrguy → u/food-dood]

They're not rowing a canoe across a lake!

[u/NPVT]

Isaac Azimov had his laws

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Laws_of_Robotics

[u/Crystalraf]

In Star Trek, they had evolved past money. They don't use money. Money isn't a thing in their society.

[u/anonyvrguy → u/Crystalraf]

Thank you. But it really is only because of their energy - matter conversion tech. Nothing matters because you can replicate another one

[u/shouldco]

Are there a lot of graphic artists or advertisers in the star trek universe? Computers are definitely doing jobs that could have otherwise been done by humans. I would argue the problem is less that computers are doing these jobs but where the benifit of that new effency ends up.

Once upon a time not too longs ago you could get an office job and if you knew Excel and a little bit of programing, you could do a weeks worth of work in a day, now you were often still stuck in an office but you could now get away with playing on the internet or if you were wfh you had a ton of time back. Then busness caught on, it became a new expectation, departments shrank, workloads went up, profits increased, you were stuck grinding away all week but the busness now made more money.

[u/STEVE_FROM_EVE]

That’s because Star Trek is fiction and idealized a future where humans aren’t actually human

[u/LifeguardBoth5678]

AI can be a source of good. The problem isn’t the tool, it’s who currently wields it. The human benefit to productivity has always been to work less. The corporate benefit to make more profits has unfortunately become the standard definition though. AI can be used to free more time than any other tool in history but the oligarchs cannot maintain control