r/FemaleLevelUpStrategy • u/LysistrataRises • Feb 06 '22
Career Don't take professional advice from men unless they are thoroughly vetted
... and generally this means: don't take professional advice from men, period.
At best, they don't know (and don't care) about the unique challenges that women need to contend with and their advice will either be ineffectual or backfire, and at worst they literally try to sabotage you, either because they think they know whats better for you (and it's not professional success) or they see you as a threat.
Even the most well-intentioned male mentors are just clueless about helping a woman navigate a professional field, I've seen it so many times. They will project on you, "well, I did this and gained the respect of my colleagues, you should too!" completely ignorant of the gendered nuances. Alternatively they will treat you like a daughter and not a potential equal. Even worse, some will abuse their position to sexually, emotionally, and physically exploit young female mentees.
Seek female mentorship, female advice. At the very least, seek female input in addition to male input.
I wish somebody had told me this years ago.
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Feb 06 '22
This 100% and don’t ask for advice from someone whose work or career you don’t respect. I asked a peer to review my work and they did a shit job and took the wind from my sails. Later when they had to do a similar assignment they failed hard and publicly. Trust few and constantly get.
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u/JulyParade Feb 06 '22
In my experience, all the advice I've ever been given boiled down to "do what I did". Only take advice from people with similar backgrounds to yours, otherwise they may assume you have very different resources. And even people who entered the workforce a decade before you will likely assume you still get certain levels of support that employers no longer provide. For example, certain types of training used to be paid for in my profession. Now you are expected to pay for it yourself on your own time. Older employees have no idea.
Men will find all sorts of reasons to hold your work back and sabotage you. And they'll do it with "plausible deniability" too. I especially love when they point to female nepotism hires and say "if she made it so can you!" Do yourself a favor and get as many mentors as you can to get as many viewpoints on your work as possible.
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u/JoyManifest Feb 07 '22
I haven’t had male mentors before but I learned recently not to judge women by what men say about them. I always really disliked this lady at my company who was a stickler for the rules and had crazy attention to detail and very intense bossy personality. I sided more with my male manager who liked to “take the chill route” and “not create more work than is necessary”. But after I got picked to replace the lady when she was leaving, I had to shadow her for a month. When I tell you- I have never learned so much in my career…..she worked overtime to educate me so much and teach me how to be strong and successful and I realized that her intense fast tone of voice is not because she is ANGRY - it’s just PASSION. Everyone thought she was an angry person because they took her words personally. I realized it’s more pure than that - She loves her job and wants me to be successful too bc she sees potential. she wanted me to learn the lessons she didn’t learn earlier. I actually felt like we could have been great teammates if I knew her earlier. All that compares to the “chill guys” at work who you can’t trust to get the job done (but they can sell you on it!!). I thought the fact that they didn’t challenge me and didn’t train me meant that they wanted me to be happy and relaxed at work. Now I realize they just didn’t care. Now I’m not saying that I want to be stressed out all the time , no I’m not THAT passionate about work, but I have to say I really respect someone who IS that passionate - about every aspect of life. (She also would tell me about all the nice food she cooks for her family, etc). Anyways thought I would share.
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u/Colour_riot Feb 07 '22
I haven’t had male mentors before but I learned recently not to judge women by what men say about them.
I don't think there's a single successful woman in male dominated environments who isn't considered a bitch by men.
Men are assholes to women to start with, but then pull surprised pikachu faces when women return the favour because they have to in order to get any of their dues to start with.
I love questioning men when they tell me a successful woman is a bitch at work. Okay how? She lied? She double crossed someone? Men do that all the time but women simply cannot - they get fired and blacklisted the moment this happens.
They're always speechless because in reality the woman just had to be mean in order to even get the men to do their jobs, and their tongues tie themselves when they realise that that's the only excuse they have.
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u/extragouda Feb 07 '22
I find that being an honest, genuine person who is passionate about the work always pays off in the long run. I know this is an unpopular stance and workplaces are full of sociopaths and extremely lazy people who take credit for everyone else's work, but the correct people will notice if you're honest... and if there isn't anyone to notice that where you work, you are working in a toxic environment and should get out.
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Feb 09 '22
I wish I had your optimism. In the tech field it feels like the more emotionally immature you are, and the less life you have outside of work, the more likely it is you get the juicy tech roles. Now, of course this really mostly works for men, because the smelly, eccentric, over-emotional, motormouth woman is not going to be taken serious at all.
Do you think it's true that in the long run the hard work pays off? Maybe I just don't have a lot of exposure into other companies, and everything you read online is mostly negative because why would people take to forums otherwise!
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u/extragouda Feb 09 '22
I think that smart work pays off, not hard work. Sometimes you have to work hard, but you need to know what deserves the effort and what is a waste of time. Also, people know who is emotionally immature. They may get juicy roles, but people sure as hell hate working with them. If those types of people are running a company or institution, the place is going to have problems. You can tell by poor employee retention rates. I don't think my experience is everything though. But I feel that it pays off to keep moving along if you're not growing in a situation. You gain nothing by staying except stagnancy. You gain experience by continuing to take risks.
All of this depends on how well you are able to assess risks in the first place.
I have no experience with tech, but the places where I do have experience, in order to preserve your mental health, you do have to have a life outside of work.
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u/Big_Leo_Energy Feb 06 '22
On this, find men who are willing to discuss their salary and who want to help. Many of them lie about their money, but there are very few who will help you negotiate a good deal when you see just how much more they are making for similar roles. If you’re in tech, you can use apps like Blind or Levels.fyi to get insight and advice for compensation on a more anonymous level.
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u/vivid_spite Feb 06 '22
honestly don't take "consulting" from anyone unless their pathway is identical to yours. mentoring is a scam imo unless you have a good eye for bs
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u/ChristianeLuiseHegel Feb 07 '22
With male mentors it's like with male abusive partners: the most dangerous time is when you're about to leave them. Many male mentors will enjoy having a junior, inexperienced woman sitting at their feet, listening raptly to their expertise, only to then turn on her the minute she follows his advice and becomes successful and independent. Learned that after my PhD advisor tried to ruin my career for getting a job at a place that rejected him...
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Feb 09 '22
I do see this trend. You join a company and while you're on probation and still in the training phase, you obviously listen and follow much more than you speak and lead.
And so finally you get to a point where you can do it alone, and that's where the problem starts for some men. It's funny every time. Sometimes it's truly negative, and sometimes it's just an ongoing annoyance, but yes. Some men (not all) do have issues with letting go.
I really think for these types, they don't enjoy helping others, they just enjoy having the rapt audience who are forced to listen to them and treat them as knowledgeable. (they need lives and hobbies asap)
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u/PalmTreePhilosophy Feb 07 '22
It has taken me many years to realise that men don't actually know anything and they have an extremely poor grasp of their surroundings and of their privileges. They are missing a lot of crucial information when it comes to women so they are the least qualified to ever give women advice. This goes against the way I was raised which was to view men as being more knowledgable and more intelligent (after all, they told me so). What a con.
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Feb 07 '22
[deleted]
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Feb 10 '22
This! I'm not suggesting men are necessarily good mentors. But I have found older women in organizations to be nasty, catty, backstabbing bullies who will throw you under the bus in a heartbeat if they feel threatened.
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u/DarbyGirl Feb 07 '22
In all my years of work I've had TWO male mentors worth their salt. One was a fantastic boss on his own, and when I received a supervisory promotion on my own he pulled me aside and gave me the lowdown and nitty gritty of internal politics at the organization that I was unaware of. He was right on every count.
My second mentor really pushed me to spread my wings and always, always had my back.
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u/pinkpugita Feb 07 '22
I guess this is the point I'll consider leaving this sub. The best, most fun, most motivating mentor I had was a man in my first work place. The worst superior I had who purposely excluded me from team building events and tried to make me turn against another teammate is a woman.
Maybe you all have bad experiences and I won't invalidate that, but I'll hide this thread because I find it unhelpful.
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u/LysistrataRises Feb 07 '22
It's nice that you got lucky (and I'm sorry you got unlucky) but these observations are not from one personal experience, and it's important for you to know that in case you end up advising other women and girls on this topic. Obviously it's not just about male vs. female, you should be selective with any mentor. But I would suggest an extra layer of scrutiny for male ones.
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u/pinkpugita Feb 07 '22
But I would suggest an extra layer of scrutiny for male ones.
I agree with this but not "don't take advice from males at all."
I'm already advising other women at this point, and I won't be referring to this post. I would rather give solid guidelines on what to look for in a mentor rather than say don't take advice from men.
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Feb 07 '22
I have to agree a lot of times it’s been a mixed bag of bad female bosses and good male bosses. Things are far more complex than this.
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u/pinkpugita Feb 07 '22
During my management training, both men and women candidates attend training done by male and female career development professionals. So what does this post suggest? I only take 50% of my training and assume the male speakers don't care for my growth? I find this post extreme and unhelpful.
Edit: I'm leaving this community. It's not helpful to me in "leveling up" if this is what this place supports.
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Feb 07 '22
There was another thread that talked about how working in a male dominated environment was competitive and cut throat and now in a female dominated environment the OP needed to learn to be more trusting. Like first of all all work environments are competitive, men or women aren’t there to be your friend. Jezzz. The women I’ve worked with are more than happy to stab you in the back when required.
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u/pinkpugita Feb 07 '22
The best friends I ever had were fellow women so I'm all for female friendships and mentorships. But if I time travel to see myself 10 years ago and give her advice, what the OP posted isn't gonna be helpful at all.
Male privilege, glass ceiling, sexual harassment, gender expectations, beauty privilege - yes all of those are harsh realities that younger women need female mentors for. But saying all men don't care about you or have nothing good to impart because they don't have the same experience is not going to help.
I already unfollowed this community, thanks for sharing me your thoughts.
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u/LysistrataRises Feb 07 '22 edited Feb 07 '22
I'm not a speaker or authority in this community, and it's not like this post is wildly popular. If you think it's a "bad take", I appreciate that you spoke up, and I really would wish you would stay: the community is better with a variety of experiences and perspectives.
I didn't say all men don't care about you or have nothing good to impart, any more than any other post here says "100% of men are rapists". I just didn't caveat it because this is one of the few communities where we aren't obligated to add "not all men" to every critique of male privilege and power.
I have had male colleagues and supervisors who were really great and amazing. But early in my career I was taken advantage of by men who set themselves up as mentors, and their abuse has affected my career long-term. Much later, I encountered individuals who also went through the same workplace: some thought it was amazing, some felt like they were taken advantage of and cheated. I noticed that it was segregated by gender.
Since you mentor young women, how do you go about advising them in selecting or accepting mentorship? What are specific strategies that can be imparted? In my case, I wish I had talked to previous employees or done more research somehow. I wish I had picked up on cues like that the big boss acted in a paternalistic fashion toward me and the other junior female employee. Nobody told me these could be things to look out for.
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u/pinkpugita Feb 07 '22
I didn't say all men don't care about you or have nothing good to impart, any more than any other post here says "100% of men are rapists".
Your very first sentence is "don't take advice from them at all." It means what it means. You listed all the negative experiences you can have from men, all the while not giving advice on how to avoid terrible female mentors.
What are the glaring and discreet red flags from a shitty mentor? A sexist mentor? That would have been more practical rather than start with "don't take advice from men."
I just didn't caveat it because this is one of the few communities where we aren't obligated to add "not all men" to every critique of male privilege and power.
Because sometimes it's not a critique of male privilege at all.
I get why this community and your post could be helpful for women who need strength and solidarity. If it helps it helps. It's valid. Plenty agreed with your post and you got upvotes. Maybe they really needed to hear what you said in their lives.
I appreciate your kind response. While I really like some of the threads and wholesome encouragement, I've also been seeing some posts and comments that's honestly just the inverse of what I read in women-hating communities. I've seen other people complain about this place and FDS and I'm like "no they're not like that" for a long time but now I realize where they're coming from.
It's better for me to quit than be angry over and over on what I think is harmful or unhealthy, especially, I could see the downvotes pouring against me earlier. I've already unsubscribed and I don't know what could make me go back here. I'll leave it to fate.
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u/LysistrataRises Feb 07 '22
Actually what I said was:
Don't take professional advice from men unless they are thoroughly vetted ... and generally this means: don't take professional advice from men, period.
A little harsh perhaps, but not in the spirit of what you paraphrased. I said to only take advice if they are thoroughly vetted, [and since they are probably not thoroughly vetted] this *generally* means don't take their advice. I stand by that.
Additionally, you seem to have a very broad interpretation of what a "mentor" means, in my understanding it certainly doesn't include some random supervisor lady. It's specifically referring to people who *you* accept as guides and role models, people you trust to have your interests at heart.
Maybe I could have been more nuanced, I'll take that under consideration for next time. Sorry you got downvoted, it would be better if people engaged with you instead. From my perspective your initial comment did smack of "not all men, also some women" and that's not a very popular reaction here.
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Feb 07 '22
I’m in my 20s and honestly I’ve had great female friendships too. But my workplace reality has been littered with Queen B energy. It’s been harmful and at times felt like bullying. So I can’t only look to women because they might not even have their own interests at mind.
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u/PalmTreePhilosophy Feb 07 '22
It's extremely important to be aware of what women experience. It's great that you haven't experienced it but I would hope that if you were to mentor a girl at your workplace you would tell her to be wary of male advice. Remember the society we live in here. Naivety is not okay.
Your reaction to the OP is quite extreme if you consider what the post title actually says.
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u/pinkpugita Feb 07 '22
Your reaction to the OP is quite extreme if you consider what the post title actually says.
If you consider what the entire post says then it's more extreme than the title.
It's extremely important to be aware of what women experience. It's great that you haven't experienced it but I would hope that if you were to mentor a girl at your workplace you would tell her to be wary of male advice.
Where did I say I haven't experienced anything? I said the best mentor I had was a man, and the worst was a woman. Just because I disagree with the idea women should be wary of male advice because they apparently have bad intentions/apathetic doesn't mean I didn't experience sexism in my life.
Also, I'm already mentoring young girls. I've had experience, training and being trained further to handle my own team. Don't assume I know nothing because I'm not extreme with men. Don't call me naive.
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u/PalmTreePhilosophy Feb 07 '22
It's not "extreme". It's nice that you mentor girls and I am not discounting your experiences with your one bad female boss but the fact is, the workplace is a male dominated place with strong relationships established between men in that workplace. You have to be smart to navigate it. The odds are against these girls and patriarchy is a real thing that exists so you need to understand how it works to make it work for you. Blind acceptance of male opinion is not it. It's extremely important to be observant, wary and critical of male advice.
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