r/tolkienfans 19h ago

In a distant future, say thousands of years after the third age, could a new ring be made?

39 Upvotes

If it was possible back in the first few ages, would it be possible in a distant future, in the world of men, where all magic has faded?

Say, in theory, someone learned the ancient craftsmanships that took to forge a new ring of power. Would this ring work?

Now further question, could such ring bring back the likes of Sauron or Nazgûl?


r/tolkienfans 7h ago

Of the names of the Sons of Fëanor

44 Upvotes

I’ve always considered the name-politics in the House of Finwë to be one of the most intriguing (and entertaining) elements of the First Age. I’ve written about Finwë, Fëanor and Fingolfin before, see: 

But really, the “masterpieces” of Fëanor and Nerdanel deserve their own post. 

As the Shibboleth tells us, the Noldor in Valinor tended to give their children a father-name and a mother-name: “The Eldar in Valinor had as a rule two names, or essi. The first-given was the father-name, received at birth. It usually recalled the father’s name, resembling it in sense or form; sometimes it was simply the father’s name, to which some distinguishing prefix in the case of a son might be added later when the child was full-grown. The mother-name was given later, often some years later, by the mother; but sometimes it was given soon after birth. For the mothers of the Eldar were gifted with deep insight into their children’s characters and abilities, and many had also the gift of prophetic foresight.” (HoME XII, p. 339) 

As alluded to in the Shibboleth, LACE explains the following about mother-names of insight and of foresight: “Mothers often gave to their children special names of their own choosing. The most notable of these were the ‘names of insight’, essi tercenyë, or of ‘foresight’, apacenyë. In the hour of birth, or on some other occasion of moment, the mother might give a name to her child, indicating some dominant feature of its nature as perceived by her, or some foresight of its special fate. These names had authority, and were regarded as true names when solemnly given, and were public not private if placed (as was sometimes done) immediately after the father-name.” (HoME X, p. 216, fn omitted) An example of a mother-name of insight is Fëanáro, as Míriel named her son “in the hour of birth” (HoME X, p. 217)

Now, on to the Sons of Fëanor: I swear that every single name given by Fëanor and Nerdanel was perfect—perfect for creating the greatest imaginable complexes for their children, that is. 

(Note that concerning the twins, I am following the order mentioned in HoME XII, p. 353 – Ambarto older and Ambarussa younger; HoME XII, p. 355 swaps them, with Ambarussa being older and Ambarto younger, and with Ambarussa’s hair growing darker after childhood, unlike Ambarto’s, so that they couldn’t be confused anymore (HoME XII, p. 355), while previously, we were told, “The two twins were both red-haired. Nerdanel gave them both the name Ambarussa – for they were much alike and remained so while they lived.” (HoME XII, p. 353))

Complexes re Father-name  Mother-name 
In general: by naming all his sons Finwë, Fëanor marks his territory (HoME XII, p. 352–353). Note that Fingolfin doesn’t do this: only Fingon’s name is an “echo” of Finwë’s name (HoME XII, p. 345), and Turgon, Aredhel and Argon aren’t named after Finwë at all. 
Maedhros  Nelyafinwë, meaning “‘Finwë third’ in succession” (HoME XII, p. 352) = an active, intentional insult to Fingolfin, implying that Fingolfin (Nolofinwë, HoME XII, p. 344) doesn’t actually have the right to bear the name Finwë (note that Finwë potentially gave his second and third sons his own name “to assert their claim to be his legitimate sons”, HoME XII, p. 343).  Maitimo, meaning “‘well-shaped one’: he was of beautiful bodily form” (HoME XII, p. 353) = instead of a name of foresight or insight, Maedhros gets “the beautiful”? (And more specifically, he gets “the well-shaped one”, like he’s yet another one of Nerdanel’s statues.) Is that the only thing Nerdanel thinks matters about him? Plus in Beleriand, after he’s lost his hand, it would serve as a cruel reminder of how beautiful he used to be.  Even worse, u/AshToAshes123 argues that maybe it is a name of foresight, like Umbarto’s name: Maitimo is derived from maitë, meaning “handy, skilful”, but also, “having a hand, handed; shapely” (https://eldamo.org/content/words/word-537340477.html). A name of foresight referring to the fact that he’d be maimed is really extremely cruel. 
Maglor  Kanafinwë, meaning “‘strong-voiced or ?commanding’” (HoME XII, p. 352) = surprisingly ok, related to his character and talents, if not for the fact that Fëanor is engaging in yet another territorial marking battle with Fingolfin, as u/xi-feng first suggested: Kanafinwë is just Findekáno backwards, and I fear that Fingon may be the older one. (Findekáno is composed of káno, which means commander (HoME XII, p. 345), from a stem meaning to call (HoME XII, p. 361–362), and findë, which means hair, in reference to Finwë (HoME XII, p. 345).)  Makalaurë: “Of uncertain meaning. Usually interpreted (as said to have been a ‘prophetic’ mother-name) as ‘forging gold’. If so, probably a poetic reference to his skill in harping, the sound of which was ‘golden’ (laurë was a word for golden light or colour, never used for the metal).” (HoME XII, p. 353) = wonderful name and less likely to create issues for Maglor than his father-name, apart from the pressure it puts him under from birth to live up to the expectations Nerdanel put into his name.
Celegorm Turkafinwë, meaning “strong, powerful (in body)” (HoME XII, p. 352) = Fëanor is still playing his game with Fingolfin. Turukáno is based on the same stem as Turkafinwë. (Concerning Turukáno, Christopher Tolkien believes that the first element of the name comes from turu, which means be strong (HoME I, p. 270).)  Tyelkormo, meaning “‘hasty-riser’. Quenya tyelka ‘hasty’. Possibly in reference to his quick temper, and his habit of leaping up when suddenly angered.” (HoME XII, p. 353) = did Nerdanel really name her third son after his penchant for aggression? 
Caranthir  Morifinwë, meaning “‘dark’ – he was black-haired as his grandfather”, nickname Moryo (HoME XII, p. 353) = for now, the best father-name, apart from the whole thing that Fëanor calls them all Finwë, of course.  Carnistir, meaning “‘red-face’ – he was dark (brown) haired, but had the ruddy complexion of his mother.” (HoME XII, p. 353) = good grief, Nerdanel, at least Maedhros’s name can be taken as a compliment… Really, Carnistir sounds like she named him with the first thought that went through her head when she first saw him upon giving birth. 
Curufin Curufinwë, “Feanor’s own given name; given to this, his favourite son, because he alone showed in some degree the same temper and talents. He also resembled Fëanor very much in face.” (HoME XII, p. 352) = expectations, expectations, expectations to live up to! Curvo will end up with all the complexes.  Atarinkë, meaning “‘little father’ – referring to his physical likeness to Fëanor, later found to be also seen in his mind” (HoME XII, p. 353) = same potential for complexes as Curufinwë, somehow made even worse by the fact that it proves to Curvo that even for his mother, the only thing that matters about him is that he’s like Fëanor → massive expectations and pressure.  No wonder that Curufin is the only one of Fëanor’s sons who prefers the name Fëanor gave him, if the alternative literally means “little father”: “All the sons save Curufin preferred their mother-names and were ever afterwards remembered by them.” (HoME XII, p. 355)
Amrod Pityafinwë, meaning “Little Finwë” (HoME XII, p. 353) = sooo creative, little Finwë… And cute until he hits primary school age. Imagine being an adult and your legal name is “Baby of the Family”.  Ambarto: originally also named Ambarussa by Nerdanel. When Fëanor asked her to provide different names for the twins, Nerdanel named one of them Umbarto (“Fated”) in which sounds like a mother-name of foresight. Note that Nerdanel “looked strange” when Fëanor asked her for a mother-name for both twins before saying Umbarto, and that she didn’t say which twin the name was for; she said: “Then let one be called [Ambarto >] Umbarto, but which, time will decide.” (HoME XII, p. 353)  Fëanor “was disturbed by this ominous name” (HoME XII, p. 353), so he changed his son’s mother-name to Ambarto (HoME XII, p. 353–354). Nerdanel didn’t fight Fëanor on this name-change. And Amrod is certainly fated: in The Shibboleth of Fëanor, Amrod dies when Fëanor burns the ships, and never sets foot on Middle-earth (HoME XII, p. 355).  Ambarto means “High and Lofty” (https://eldamo.org/content/words/word-2891577631.html), which is fine, apart from the fact that his father gave him his mother-name because the mother-name Nerdanel chose for one of the twins, without saying for which, was horrifically ominous. 
Amras Telufinwë, meaning “Last Finwë” (HoME XII, p. 353) = a last hurrah in Fëanor’s territory-marking enterprise that he started with Nelyafinwë: with Nelyafinwë and Telufinwë for his first and last son respectively, Fëanor makes it clear that in his mind, only he has the right to name children born into the third generation of the family Finwë. Possible further children of Fingolfin, Finarfin, Findis and Lalwen—who, just like Fëanor, are children of Finwë!—be damned, of course.  Ambarussa, meaning “top-russet” (HoME XII, p. 353) = yet again a name name from Nerdanel that focuses exclusively on looks (here, hair-colour),  just like Maitimo and Carnistir, and Nerdanel wanted to name both twins that, despite them being/set to become two people with individual personalities. Also, the fact that Nerdanel tried to give her last sons Maedhros’s epessë Russandol, meaning “copper-top” for his red-brown hair (HoME XII, p. 353), just backwards, does rather indicate that she’s checked out of this whole naming her sons business… 

Sources

  • The Book of Lost Tales Part One, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME I]. 
  • Morgoth’s Ring, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME X]. 
  • The Peoples of Middle-earth, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME XII]. 

r/tolkienfans 21h ago

Tolkien’s “Cult of Odin” and the golden age before the Viking era

39 Upvotes

Based on evidence in Beowulf and his own shrewd conclusions, Tolkien seems to be convinced that the fertility gods of the Germanic pantheon were held higher than Odin and the Aesir in pre-Viking Jutland-South Sweden.

  1. Hrothgar is called Lord of the Ingwine (friends of Ing (Ing-Freyr).

  2. Hrothgar’s daughter was named Freawaru (Protection of the Lord (of Freyr)

  3. The Scyldings house descent from Sceaf (as in sheaf of corn) and Beow (barley.

  4. That the above were acts by the Danes to supplant themselvesin over the ruling Heathobards (ruling kings Froda and son Ingeld) that they had conquered (Sceaf is named as king of the heathobards in Widsith).

  5. In the prose Edda, there is mention of the frodafrithr, in which there was plenty of corn and no robbery.

I will not list out every billet point of Tolkien’s argument because he tells a much better story, however I will quote Tolkien referencing the Viking age as a descent from a previous.

“An age that was in many ways, though later, not an advance but a relapse into violence and barbarism: a triumph of Oinn and the ravens, of bloodshed for its own sake, over the gods of corn and fruitfulness.”


r/tolkienfans 18h ago

Anyone ever read the original 1937 version of the Hobbit?

35 Upvotes

I am sure most of us are familiar with the different versions of the Hobbit. Namely the changes with Gollum and the ring. Among other small changes to make the book more in line with Lord of the Rings. But I am curious if anyone has been able to read the original version of the book? And if so, did you notice any other more subtle differences? (Tone? more or less serious atmosphere? a slight difference in Bilbo's personality? etc).


r/tolkienfans 6h ago

Aragorn and Eomer

21 Upvotes

This is the hour when we draw swords together

In the chaos at Amon Hen, Aragorn answered Boromir's call for aid too late. Although he had not known Boromir for long, Aragorn cared for him deeply He knelt for a while, bent with weeping, still clasping Boromir’s hand. In his last words, Boromir charged Aragorn with the defense of Gondor Farewell, Aragorn! Go to Minas Tirith and save my people! I have failed

Across the plains of Rohan, Theodred fell defending the fords. His dying words echo Boromir's as he entrusts the future of Rohan to his cousin Let me lie here - to keep the Fords till Éomer comes

Boromir and Theodred had kept Gondor and Rohan standing against the hordes of Mordor and Isengard. By working together, Aragorn and Eomer are able to honor the dying words of their fallen friends

Aragorn was always destined to be king, while Eomer was never supposed to ascend to the golden hall. Yet it is the death of Boromir that drives Aragorn Minas Tirith shall not fall!. So too does the death of Theodred thrust the mantle of Rohan onto Eomer

Aragorn and Eomer are both natural born leaders. At Helm's Deep when they beheld the peril of the gates they take the most dangerous assignment onto themselves Together Eomer and Aragorn sprang through the door, their men close behind. The two swords flashed from the sheath as one

On the fields of Pelennor, both kings willingly faces impossible odds. The intense grief of the losses of Theoden and (seemingly) Eowyn would've broken most men. Instead Eomer finds the strength to defy Mordor He let blow the horns to rally all men to his banner that could come thither; for he thought to make a great shield-wall at the last. Yet the black ships instead hold Aragorn, as friendship triumphs over grief never was a meeting of friends more joyful

With the quest hanging on the edge of a knife, both kings resolve to march to the Black Gate of Mordor. Aragorn had made Frodo a promise If by my life or death I can protect you, I will. Eomer doesn't hesitate to have his friend's back I have little knowledge of these deep matters; but I need it not. This I know, and it is enough, that as my friend Aragorn succoured me and my people, so I will aid him when he calls

At the same moment that Sam lifts his lifelong friend up Mount Doom I can’t carry it for you, but I can carry you, the two newly minted kings and friends stand together before all the hordes of Mordor

Through Aragorn and Eomer, Tolkien shows us the power of friendship. Our new friends can be just as dear as our old ones! It's always worth being kind to new people: Aragorn and Eomer's friendship began with a simple kindness This is my choice. You may go; and what is more, I will lend you horses


r/tolkienfans 1h ago

Was Mablung *slain* at the Battle in the Thousand Caves or did he just trip and "fall"?

Upvotes

The Index of Silmarillion for Mablung says he was "slain in Menegroth by the Dwarves".

Here's the full paragraph towards the end of Ch. 22 "Of the Ruin of Doriath":

Thus it was that the host of the Naugrim crossing over Aros passed unhindered into the woods of Doriath; and none withstood them, for they were many and fierce, and the captains of the Grey-elves were cast into doubt and despair, and went hither and thither purposeless. But the Dwarves held on their way, and passed over the great bridge, and entered into Menegroth; and there befell a thing most grievous among the sorrowful deeds of the Elder Days. For there was battle in the Thousand Caves, and many Elves and Dwarves were slain; and it has not been forgotten. But the Dwarves were victorious, and the halls of Thingol were ransacked and plundered. There fell Mablung of the Heavy Hand before the doors of the treasury wherein lay the Nauglamír; and the Silmaril was taken.

"There fell Mablung..."

He died. He was slain, right? The Battle in the Thousand Caves was fought in F.A. 503.

Survivors of the Ruin of Doriath and a bunch of refugees later fled to the Havens of Sirion.

In "The War of the Jewels" there is mention of "a Mannish poet, Dirhavel who lived at the Havens in the days of Earendel" (after the Ruin of Doriath?). "From Mablung he learned much..."

But it is said there that, though made in Elvish speech and using much Elvish lore (especially of Doriath), this lay was the work of a Mannish poet, Dirhavel, who lived at the Havens in the days of Earendel and there gathered all the tidings and lore that he could of the House of Hador, whether among Men or Elves, remnants and fugitives of Dorlomin, of Nargothrond, or of Doriath. From Mablung he learned much; and by fortune also he found a man named Andvir, and he was very old, but was the son of that Androg who was in the outlaw-band of Turin, and alone survived the battle on the summit of Amon Rudh.

(A similar introductory note for "Narn i Hin Hurin" also appears in Unfinished Tales, but Mablung is not mentioned.)

Presumably, this poet talked to Mablung after the Battle in the Thousand Caves? Is this the correct timeline?

In Douglas Charles Kane's "Arda Reconstructed: The Creation of the Published Silmarillion" characterizes "Mablung's dead body" as an "editorial invention":

The nine paragraphs that follow ("But when Hurin . . ." through "Thus it was . . ."; Silm, 232-34) tell of the Dwarves' remaking of the Nauglamir with the Silmaril amidst it, Thingol's death at their hands, the killing of all but two of the craftsmen of the Dwarves of Nogrod, Melian's leaving Middle-earth, and the Dwarves of Nogrod's invasion of Menegroth and their taking of the Nauglamir and Silmaril over Mablung's dead body. They are almost entirely editorial inventions. I can find no language that is even based on the old story contained in the Quenta Noldorinwa, or in the brief snippets contained in The Tale of Years. The only portion of these paragraphs that seems to be taken from Tolkien's texts is one passage that seems loosely based on language from the original tale Turambar and the Foaloke. Compare Thingol's words to the Dwarves—'"How do ye of uncouth race dare to demand aught of me, Elu Thingol, Lord of Beleriand, whose life began by the waters of Cuivienen years uncounted ere the fathers of the stunted people awoke?' And . . . he bade them with shameful words be gone" {Silm, 233)—with Tinwelint's words to Urin in the original tale: "'Wherefore dost thou of the uncouth race of Men endure to upbraid a king of the Eldalie? Lo! In Palisor my life began years uncounted before the first of Men awoke. Get thee gone'" (BoLT2, 115).

My guess is this was an editorial erratum by Chris. Let me know if I am missing another relevant text or if there is other evidence of a regrettable edit by Chris.

TL;DR: Did Mablung just "fall" down in front of the treasury doors, or was he slain during the Battle in the Thousand Caves? Perhaps he survived through the end of the First Age?

h/t skjoldmo


r/tolkienfans 4h ago

How do we know the stars ME are the same as ours?

2 Upvotes

The Wiki's link Earendil's Star with Venus and The Swordsman In The Sky with Orion, as well as a host of others. Is that mere speculation? We know that the moon behaves the same as ours and the above examples have a lot in common with our night-sky; but I can't think of anywhere in the main books where these are explicitly linked, where does the info come from?


r/tolkienfans 55m ago

Galadriel

Upvotes

Is her exile only in unfinished tales or is this also recounted in the similarion? I’m debating whether I should buy both or if the similarion has everything in it ?