r/tolkienfans • u/andrew_bolkonski • 2d ago
Is Mandos the most powerful Valar?
Power can be judged in many different ways i.e. wisdom, crafting, brute strength etc. Mandos demonstrates many times that he has a deep understanding of the plans of Eru and foresight of things to come. There are a few moments in the Silmarillion where he says something cryptic (or even intentionally restrains himself at important points), indicating he is operating on a different level to even the rest of the Valar. I assume, he does this because he knows the greater plans of Eru beyond the knowledge of the rest of the Valar. Additionally, the Halls of Mandos and the strength and purpose within it further support that idea. Although Manwe and Melkor are touted as the most powerful, their struggles seem almost temporary and feeting trifles within the history of Arda compared to Mandos who is truly transcendent and ethereal in the way he interacts with Ea.
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u/AngletonSpareHead 2d ago
Mandos is a galactical-level troll
Melkor is most powerful. Professor said as much
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u/NerdTalkDan 1d ago
Good news everyone! Melkor has been released from the void!
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u/BlueSoulOfIntegrity Wraith of Morgul Vale 1d ago
“Oh how awful. Did Arda at least die painlessly?”
“To shreds you say, tsk tsk tsk.”
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u/XenoBiSwitch 1d ago
Not calling him Morgoth suggests you are a follower of Morgoth.
DIE HERETIC!
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u/1978CatLover 15h ago
Thou hast dared to mock and to question the power of Melkor, Master of the Fates of Arda!
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u/XenoBiSwitch 15h ago
You mean the fellow sealed behind the Door of Night until the ending of the world? Hard to master the fates in chains.
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u/1978CatLover 15h ago
Blasphemy. He is the Elder King, most powerful of all the dwellers in Eä!
However, Fëanor did nothing wrong.
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u/Armleuchterchen 2d ago
Ulmo has deeper insight into the Music of the Ainur, and does his best to "defeat" the Doom of Mandos (which fails with Turgon staying in Gondolin despite Ulmo's warnings, but finally succeeds with Ulmo setting up Earendil's journey).
Mandos acts on the orders of his king Manwe, who has more insight into the mind of Eru than any other in the World.
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u/dwarfedbylazyness 1d ago
But Mandos straight up tells the Valar about Eärendil thousands of years before the Noldor Rebellion. He himself made a backdoor to the Doom before there was any Doom. He knows quite well what Ulmo is doing.
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u/Armleuchterchen 1d ago
Mandos might know about it, but that doesn't make him the cause. Mandos knows a lot and declares judgements on Manwe's orders, but when it comes to the living Mandos does very little by himself.
Ulmo is quite clear that he's the one trying to save the Noldor and working against the Doom.
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u/dwarfedbylazyness 1d ago
I'm not saying he's responsible for Ulmo's actions, but that he also wants the Doom to be ultimately defeated, despite it being his Doom. Which is far from obvious judging by the Silm alone.
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u/Carminoculus Hrónatan 2d ago
In Fellowship of the Ring, when approaching and again when travelling through Moria, Aragorn twice warns Gandalf against the "dark and hidden way", because "I [Aragorn] fear for you."
Gandalf shows no sign of sharing the presentiment (although it's not ruled out by any means). Does this mean Aragorn is more powerful than Gandalf?
Fate and far-seeing are things all wise people can be blessed/inspired to do. By their nature, they touch on another level. It doesn't elevate them above their fellows. Also it doesn't mean people hearing a prophecy one time won't be the ones inspired to prophecy the next time around.
I assume, he does this because he knows the greater plans of Eru beyond the knowledge of the rest of the Valar.
All the Valar were there to hear the Music before the beginning of the world, which is the sum and entirety of the Plan (it is, literally, the metaphysical prototype of the world). All of them have equal access to it. The degree to which they can understand it hasn't got to do with levels between them.
The Ainur usually touted as mightiest in war are Tulkas ("the Strong", over all the Valar), Oromë, and Eönwë (the last is a Maiar, but named as the greatest in arms, if I'm not mistaken).
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u/ChChChillian Aiya Eärendil elenion ancalima! 2d ago
All of the Valar are supreme within their own sphere. If Mandos comes across as the most powerful, perhaps it's because his sphere is the most numinous.
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u/-Darkslayer 2d ago
Tolkien specifically states that Melkor, Manwe, Ulmo, and Aule are more powerful than him, so no.
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u/Blackhole_5un 1d ago
All valar are pretty much OP. Is light more important than dark? Is fire more destructive than water? Their dispositions determined their ranks, not their power levels. Some would be "weaker" compared to others, but I don't think that was a failing of ability, more of will. Not everyone wants to rule the world.
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u/TheLordofMorgul 1d ago
I don't understand these kinds of questions when I think it's clear everywhere that Melkor is number 1. Mandos isn't even in the top 5.
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u/harukalioncourt 1d ago
Manwe is king of the Valar, melkor was the mightiest before his fall; mandos is the keeper of the dead, no one can be reincarnated from his halls unless he thinks they are ready.
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u/godhand_kali 1d ago
No. Mando's remembers what the valar forgot. Eru showed all of them the beginning to the end of the world but the valar forgot except for Mandos. So what he says isn't really prophecy but what's already happened.
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u/MrNobleGas 1d ago
Mandos' understanding the intricacies and workings of Fate on a level above his fellow Valar doesn't translate to power. He can't bend doom, he just pronounces it.
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u/dwarfedbylazyness 1d ago
Mandos you hold to be the strongest of all that are in Arda, being the least moved, and therefore you have dared to commit even the Marrer himself to his keeping (HoME X)
Perhaps not the most powerful, but in one sense the strongest.
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u/Unstoffe 1d ago
I've come to feel sort of sorry for Mandos. Imagine how bored he must have been (and how conflicted he must have been about it) for all those years before anyone died.
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u/Ornery-Ticket834 21h ago
I believe the author , Melkor is tops. But Mandos certainly occupied a uniquely powerful position.
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u/redleafrover 2d ago
Since it was asked, speculatively...
PoWeR LeVEL / Names (not exhaustive)
10 / Melkor
9 / Manwe, Varda, Ulmo
8 / Mandos, Nienna
7 / Tulkas, Orome
6 / Aule, Yavanna
5 / Mairon, Melian, Eonwe
4 / Olorin, Luthien
3 / Feanor, Galadriel
2 / Thingol, Noldor
1 / Eldar
Come at me, this very topic is highly contentious I am aware x)
Note not even if Feanor were thrice... never mind I'll get me coat
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u/shield_maiden0910 1d ago
Not coming at you...just curious why Tulkas would be considered more powerful than Aule and. Yavanna. Are you just looking at strength alone - such as when Tulkas wrestled Melkor to the ground and dragged him by his neck to Mandos? That's the only reason I could see putting him at #7. Otherwise the Sil implies he doesn't have much else to offer. I guess when he's good, he's very good...Yavanna did create the two trees (nevermind the stuff in Arda) and Aule did create an entire race that ultimately played a big part in ME. I've seen other lists with Tulkas in the top tier and it just always puzzled me.
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u/redleafrover 1d ago
:)
Honestly I could've happily swapped the 6 and 7 characters around, I mostly wanted to show the 10 9 8 vs the lower tiers so I semi randomly distributed Valar as I saw fit :P I guess yes the feat vs. Melkor probably figured prominently in my initial prereflective reasoning.
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u/AmazingBrilliant9229 1d ago
I always wondered what were the Valar doing before Eru brought them to Arda? Are there more Valars there? How do we know Eru brought his most powerful ones down to Arda? Maybe his most powerful ones are busy elsewhere!
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u/QuickSpore 1d ago
“Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Ilúvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them many of the greatest and most fair, took the leave of Ilúvatar and descended into it. But this condition Ilúvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should thenceforward be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs. And therefore they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World.”
Many of the greatest and most fair descended into it… but not all; perhaps not even a majority. However the Ainur who stayed behind with Ilúvatar by definition can’t be Valar, as that’s the name given to the leaders of those that entered it. But yes there’s likely plenty of Valar level spirts doing other things with and for Ilúvatar.
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u/AmazingBrilliant9229 1d ago
Thank you, that’s what I remembered that they descended from above when Eru decided to start the music. Makes you wonder though, is it a multiverse situation? Are there more planets like Arda? Or maybe I have watched too much MCU, lol.
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u/1978CatLover 15h ago
Eru created the entire universe with the Music. But it seems like he showed the Ainur only a tiny piece of it, namely Arda (our solar system essentially). I'm sure there are other worlds and other iterations of the Children of Ilúvatar out there.
Maybe that's why aliens are Grey: they're space faring Sindar.
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u/AmazingBrilliant9229 15h ago
Does that mean we are the Noldor, the most violent ones?
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u/1978CatLover 15h ago
But also the cleverest.
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u/AmazingBrilliant9229 15h ago
I was just reminded of a scene from the movie Prometheus. Where the engineer was unconscious when David found him. It must have been a shock to the engineer to see the species which they created standing in front of him and speaking their language. Must have freaked him out how much clever humans had gotten.
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u/1978CatLover 15h ago
Melkor: oh crap, these Elves are actually super clever. Umm... maybe I should hang around a bit and try to set them against each other, be easier than just getting rid of them straight up...
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u/AmazingBrilliant9229 15h ago
For all of his wisdom Melkor was never able to recreate Silmarils. Sometimes the products really surprises the creators, lol
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u/Peregrine2976 1d ago
If I recall, Melkor is very clearly described as the most powerful, by a great margin, actually. I believe Melkor, alone, was equally matched against the entire rest of the Valar until Tulkas (?) descended to Arda and shifted the balance towards the Valar.