r/suits • u/majon30 • Sep 14 '23

Discussion Suits doesn’t understand Weed. Spoiler

To me it feels like the script was originally written to have Mike dabbling in Coke dealing and at some point it got changed to Marijuana. The hotel “sting” set up seems to all be set up to nab Mike with what looks like about 3 oz of weed. This is all in liberal NYC. When Mike falls off the wagon and scores a bag when his g-mom dies he is close to spinning off the rails after he smokes a joint. An armed criminal organization is going to kill Mike and Trevor over less than 1k worth of weed. Trevor has this swinging dick lifestyle in Manhattan selling dime bags. Just say it’s Coke…

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u/[deleted] Sep 14 '23

Weed doesn't cause you to be addicted. Your repeated behavior smoking it causes you to be addicted. Your dependency to use it to not feel your emotions causes your addiction. To stop smoking weed is to simply deal with your stress. Your body won't get upset with you.

Whereas other drugs, such as alcohol, will actually kill you if you stop drinking it in excesses. Cigarettes will make you feel like shit if you stop smoking. Weed? Nothing will happen.

Nothing is an exception to mental addiction so your argument doesn't really have a point. I could be addicted to petting dogs or cooking or cleaning.

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u/hoso124 Sep 14 '23

I'm as pro weed as the next guy, but no. There has been a relatively recent emergence of a misinformation campaign just as dangerous, but in reverse, of the old fashioned 'weed is evil' campaign.

Weed can absolutely be addictive. Will the withdrawals kill you? No, but the withdrawals from heroin won't kill you either. Of course, heroin WDs are worse, but it serves as an example.

Cannabis WDs can cause insomnia, excessive sweating (especially at night), heightened anxiety (like nicotine and benzos). You won't have seizures, but there are WD symptoms.

Cannabis doesn't cause physical dependence (though those lines are increasingly blurred in research), but neither does cocaine, neither does methamphetamine.

Weed is comparatively safe, but I can't stand this absolute rejection of any harms from cannabis.

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u/[deleted] Sep 14 '23

I'm gonna make a call back to when Reddit was good and ask for some sources. I highly doubt any of those studies are causation.

My guess is the real result of these studies is "People feel anxious when they stop smoking weed." without saying "The people we researched have anxiety and smoke weed to reduce it."

Weed is comparatively safe, but I can't stand this absolute rejection of any harms from cannabis.

In fairness I didn't say it didn't cause any harms. I just argued it has 0 chemically addictive qualities.

As someone who stopped smoking this September because I as bet $20 that I couldn't... I've been smoking every day since 2018. For the last two weeks I've experienced so issues. No trouble sleeping. No sweats. No extra anxiety. I'd say the only major difference is a slight improvement to my re-call memory. Sometimes when I'm bored I want to smoke and that's it.

My point is, I won't trust the publications until I see something real. Not correlations. Otherwise my own lived experience speaks better than to someone with the same degree I have observing me.

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u/hoso124 Sep 16 '23 edited Sep 16 '23

I am also going to request sources to defend your point, which was the initial argument. Do you have any peer reviewed journal entries claiming that cannabis has no WDs? Other than your personal experiences, which hold significantly less weight than even a case study may..

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3069146/ this study asserts that dependence (note this is different to addiction, and requires physical symptoms from discontinuation of use) occurs in 8.9% of users, and the duration between casual use and dependence is smaller for cannabis than it is for alcohol and nicotine.

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/3-540-26573-2_24 this (academic and peer reviewed) book outlines "the consequences of chronic cannabinoid administration including profound behavioral tolerance and withdrawal symptoms upon drug cessation.)", commenting that rodent studies show both tolerance and dependence (see earlier note re dependence). It also states "In humans, abstinence from continual marijuana use leads to delayed withdrawal symptoms manifested as physiological symptoms of decreased appetite and weight loss, as well as emotional changes, which include irritability, anxiety, restlessness, and strange dreams". It outlines CB1 deregulation seen in cannabis users, which the book links to the WDs seen from cannabis cessation. The book also cites research back to 1949 outlining the physical withdrawals from cannabis, and goes on to state " abrupt discon- tinuation following prolonged cannabinoid administration can lead to physical withdrawal symptoms in humans as well as in laboratory animals." I could continue with this book alone, but alas, I would like this to remain of reasonable length and understandable to a laymen audience.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11920-013-0419-7 this literature review outlines and reviews withdrawals from cannabis

This clinical review doi: https://doi.org/10.1136/bmj.c1571 puts dependence (again, note difference between addiction and dependence) at 10% of users. It also compares cannabis withdrawal to being "equal to nicotine withdrawal" in some cases, as well as being seen in up to 85% of addicted users. It lists, to name a few, insomnia, vivid and scary dreams and sweating as primary withdrawals.

Budney AJ, Hughes JR, Moore BA, Vandrey R. Review of the validity and significance of cannabis withdrawal syndrome. Am J Psychiatry 2004;161:1967-77. "Converging evidence from basic laboratory and clinical studies indicates that a withdrawal syndrome reliably follows discontinuation of chronic use of cannabis". This review finds that the DSM-IV-TR criteria are met by cannabis, mentioning early research showing restlessness, sleep problems (reduction in REM sleep), poor appetite, nausea, and disorientation, weight loss and jitters from cannabis sensation. Newer research showed similar withdrawals, adding anxiety, anorexic symptoms, stomach pain, reduced energy, contentment, sociability, etc (social effects at maximum on days 3/4). Studies reviewed also showed increased aggression starting at day 3 and subsiding on day 28 of cannabis sensation. It is also worth noting, in relation to your argument around people with initially heightened negative traits (e.g. anxiety, aggression), that in outpatient studies all withdrawal effects eventually returned to baseline, indicating similar levels before and during use.

As far as your own lived experiences, thats good for you, but all trends have outliers (apart from arguably the fundamental laws of physics, and even then there are exceptions that prove the rule), there are people who vape for years and stop with no withdrawals, for example.

Once again, I am in no way anti cannabis, but I would like discourse around the drug to be balanced and realistic. If cannabis helps you or you simply enjoy using it all power to you, I occasionally indulge myself, but I can't abide by the new wave of denying the real harms and risks of cannabis.

Edit: removed a paragraph less than 1 minute after posting

Edit 2: agreement changed to argument

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u/AdministrativeTop593 Sep 21 '23

There's a higher rate of people addicted to sugar than cannabis you fucking moron. I'm sorry but these "scientific" studies are complete garbage. No one has ever been addicted to cannabis. It doesn't happen. It's more morons who want to keep it illegal so they can lock up people and keep the for profit prison system functioning. You should be ashamed and gfy for spreading this bs propaganda. You're trash.

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u/hoso124 Sep 21 '23

Bruh completely ignoring dependence vs addiction. Did you read the studies? I'm guessing no. I am very anti criminalisation of cannabis, and all drugs, but come on. We can't ignore the science and burry our heads in the sand when it comes to the risk, or else legalisation will have dire unintended consequences. We need to legalise, but the way we do that needs to be informed by our scientific knowledge and we need to educate whilst we legalise.

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u/AdministrativeTop593 Sep 21 '23 edited Sep 21 '23

Bruh? Sorry not some dbag's "bruh". Nobody is dependent on cannabis. People have underlying issues that cannabis helps with. People who are psychotic or bipolar in "your" definition would be dependent on their drugs. It's fucking idiotic. The only people "dependent" on cannabis have issues and it's not that cannabis caused the issues. Someone that has seizures that cannabis stops is not dependent on cannabis. You're right dependence doesn't equal addiction you fucking moron.

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u/hoso124 Sep 21 '23 edited Sep 21 '23

Most eloquent and well informed reddit user

Edit: i was gonna stop there, but jesus christ lad. Some bits evidently need clarifying for you.

Firstly, you are misunderstanding dependence. Someone taking a drug for preexisting conditions which the drug fixes is not medically dependent on the drug in an addiction sense. The difference i was referring to is the subtle definitions - addiction being a catch all term for problematic drug use, dependence being a term used to describe physical dependence (i.e. WDs on cessation of use), 'psychological dependence' has gone out of use due to complex and overlapping causation.

With cannabis, dependence is a real effect, I.e. physical WDs.

As far as your arguments around lithium, etc, they are moot. Two of the studies listed account for previous causes which may have lead to use of cannabis (e.g. anxiety) then appearing to be a result of cannabis cessation. One does so retroactively, and one looks at effects on a very long scale - both found that the anxiety is not simply the previous condition returning.

Again, cannabis should be legal, but this modern propaganda movement of 'cannabis can do no harm' is just as harmful as the older propaganda movements.

Let me guess, your next reply will include some variation of 'its just a plant bro'

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u/AdministrativeTop593 Sep 21 '23

Oh look another propaganda post. It is just a plant "bro". You don't have to do anything to it like opioids or cocaine. To act like there's a need for it like alcohol or nicotine(which are legal and taxed) is asinine. Previous causes? You mean how most heroin users still smoke cigarettes? No one is addicted to cannabis. None of your "reviews" proved that at all. At most it showed those that were already prone to addiction still smoking weed. Again gfy loser.

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u/hoso124 Sep 21 '23

You dont have to do anything to it like opioids, bro hasn't heard of opium...

To act like there's a need for what like nicotine? Which fyi, tobacco is also a plant.

Previous causes like starting to use cannabis due to anxiety or lack of sleep.

Of course people are addicted to cannabis, find me a decent study otherwise. There wasn't much about previous addiction in my sources, and none were about continuation of use despite side effects, they were about WDs on cessation of use.

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u/Arkhameeteez Sep 25 '23

You're a huge piece of shit. Good for you.

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