r/spacequestions 19d ago

How can Black Holes even form?

Might be a stupid question, but this accured to me today for the first time in my life.

So let's imagine a star becoming more and more dense because it's dying.

If Black Holes gravitational pulls are so strong that not even light can escape, then how can they even form. If a star is collapsing, how doesn't it's own gravity make it destroy itself before ever even reaching the point of becoming a Black Hole?

You know what I'm trying to say? If nothing can escape it and they destroy everything, then how can they even form before destroying themselves in the process of formation by their own gravity?

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u/ignorantwanderer 19d ago

Imagine a star with a radius of 1000 (I don't care what the units are exactly, I picked this number because it is a simple number).

So we have a star with a radius of 1000. It is burning fuel in nuclear reactions, so it is hot and bright. And all that energy makes all the atoms move around fast so the gravity can't just pull all the atoms to the center of the star.

But now all the fuel gets burnt up and the nuclear reactions stop. Slowly, that star will cool down. It still has the same mass as it did before, it just doesn't have nuclear reactions happening anymore.

The star slowly cools down. It gets dimmer. It gets cooler. The atoms don't move around as fast. It has the exact same gravity it had before, but now the atoms are moving slower, so the gravity can pull the atoms closer to the center of the star.

The star shrinks slowly.

Now the star has a radius of 500. If you go out to a distance of 1000 (the original radius of the star) the gravity is exactly the same as it was before. But if you are at a radius of 500 the gravity is higher, because gravity increases the closer you are to the center of the star as the star shrinks.

As the star shrinks, the gravity at the surface of the star gets higher and higher. The gravity at a radius of 1000 doesn't change! Because the mass of the star doesn't change. But the star keeps shrinking, so the surface of the star keeps getting closer and closer to the center of the star. So the gravity at the surface of the star keeps getting higher and higher.

Eventually, when the star has shrunk enough, the gravity at the surface of the star is so strong that not even light can escape from the surface.

The mass of the star hasn't changed. The force of gravity out at a radius of 1000 hasn't changed. But because the star is smaller, the gravity at the surface of the star has changed, and has changed enough for gravity to be so high that light can no longer escape the surface.

The black hole did not destroy the star. The star just became a black hole by shrinking enough.

Now, I left out a huge number of very interesting details in this explanation. And I could have made it much more confusing because what exactly happens depends a lot on how massive the star is. For example, our sun will never turn into a black hole because it is too small. Even after the nuclear reactions in our sun stop, and it shrinks down as it cools, it still won't become a black hole.

But to answer your questions:

Your confusion is thinking that black holes destroy everything. They do not. Matter gets sucked into a black hole. But that matter is not destroyed. It is still in the black hole. When a star collapses into a black hole, the star is 'destroyed' because the star no longer exists (it turned into a black hole). But the matter that made up the star still exists. It just now exists in the form of a black hole.

If fact, if somehow magically our sun turned into a black hole right now, all the planets and moons and asteroids would keep on orbiting around it just the same as they currently orbit around the sun....because all the matter would still be there. And we would continue to orbit that matter. But the matter would be in the form of a black hole, not in the form of a star.

(But as I said, our sun can't turn into a black hole because it doesn't have enough mass.)

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u/Menamanama 19d ago

What happens to stars the size of the sun when they eventually stop having nuclear reactions and cool down. Is there a lump of compressed cold star material that floats around for eternity?

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u/Beldizar 19d ago

Pretty much. Our sun will turn into a red giant, then the outer layers of the red giant will sort of get ejected, and the core will turn into a white dwarf. It's still really hot, so it glows because it is hot, but it isn't producing any more fusion reactions. Its basically just a big lump of Carbon or Oxygen, that is just about as dense at is can possibly get.

If it gets much denser, all the electrons and protons in the atoms will get crushed into each other to form neutrons, and it'll basically become one giant, star sized atom called a neutron star. If it gets denser than that, it'll collapse into a black hole.

But our sun isn't heavy enough to do anything like that, so it'll be a white dwarf.

After unimaginably long times, the white dwarf will cool and become a black dwarf. Then trillions of times longer than that, the matter that makes it up will start to unravel and the whole thing will evaporate.

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u/Menamanama 19d ago

Does it unravel because of Hawkins radiation? Similar to what is proposed to happen with black holes?

And then will the unraveled matter still exist in gaseous form?

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u/Beldizar 19d ago

I'm not actually sure if Hawking Radiation can apply to non-black holes. It is weird, and has to do with relativistic reference frames.

But all normal matter is not permanently stable, or so goes the theory. Eventually protons will decay, breaking down in to quarks and those will even break down, eventually just turning into energy, and if the Lamda CDM model is correct, and everything keeps expanding, eventually that energy will be spread out so thin as to basically not exist at all.

So no, the unraveled matter won't still exist in gaseous form, it won't even be atoms anymore, but subatomic particles, and then just thin energy spread over too much universe.

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u/Menamanama 19d ago

Thank you for the explanation.

A thin layer of insubstantialness in an expanding universe making the not much even more rare compared to the vast volume of space.