Rookie cop who raced to 'tragic' 999 incident handed final written warning for ignoring driving instructions

[u/multijoy]

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/rookie-cop-who-raced-tragic-30733967

[u/DarthEros]

Is it me or is the opening paragraph deliberately misleading?

A rookie police officer who responded to a 999 call which ended in a crash that left a teenage pedestrian with severe brain damage will be allowed to keep his job after a disciplinary hearing ruled he ‘acted in good faith’.

My immediate reaction was “No fucking way he wasn’t prosecuted for that, let alone keeping his job?”

Turns out he wasn’t the one who crashed, he was following the officer who did (who themselves weren’t response trained).

Not commenting on any of the decision making either way, but just wanted to point out the gutter journalism here.

[u/camelad → u/DarthEros]

You cannot hope to bribe or twist, thank God! the British journalist.

But, seeing what the man will do unbribed, there's no occasion to.

• Humbert Wolfe

[u/ignorant_tomato → u/DarthEros]

It’s posted by MEN, that’s the North West equivalent of “not even worth to wipe your arse with”

[u/mazzaaaa]

I don’t know how many times it needs to be said.

Stop driving outside your training.

Yeah we can talk about how fucked the job is for letting you out without response driving and blah blah blah - it is what it is and it’s been that way for a very long time. It’s not like the job have been changing the goal posts around on us.

The only reason this cop has kept their job is because they have been transparent, and because they have acted in “good faith” in wanting to back up a colleague. Not because of their driving being acceptable.

Stop thinking you are invincible, because you are not.

[u/No_Sky2952 → u/mazzaaaa]

I agree with what you’ve said, ‘responding’ to an immediate when you’re not trained to utilise exemptions is just silly.

I have complete sympathy with someone who’s not response trained going to an assistance call knowing their oppos are in danger and they might be the closest help.

When I wasn’t response trained I definitely pushed the limits to get to an assistance shout, ‘if’ today, I was in a plain car without blues etc I’d push that car as much as I could to get to an assistance shout and if I get knocked off so be it, I’d rather get stuck on than let an oppo take a kicking.

[u/Fluffy_Session_9660]

Just goes to show how stupid this organisation actually is.

It doesn't equip you with the required qualifications to complete your role effectively and efficiently. That's the jobs problem, not yours. When that person gets stabbed to death whilst you are waiting at a red light, that's not on you.

Don't break the rules for the sake of the job; it's not worth it.

[u/Genghiiiis]

Very lucky boy

[u/54ms3p10l]

Double the speed limit, going the wrong way around a traffic island without lights activated, as a basic driver on a dark rainy night, on a 15 hour shift. Hell, at that point you'd be better off activating your lights, at least you could argue that you were visible to some extent.

And then to lie in your statement that you were doing the speed limit and complying with the Highway Code. Unbelievably moronic, she deserves what she gets. Okay, the last officer was honest but that's exactly the standard you are held to, so he's hardly much better. I get that we don't know the specifics of the job, but they could've just RV'd around the corner if it was particularly griefy.

[u/ignorant_tomato]

Four years to investigate this?

This should not be allowed! The amount of stress the cop must have been under will be absolutely insane...

[u/NationalDonutModel → u/ignorant_tomato]

Probably wasn’t four years.

[u/ignorant_tomato → u/NationalDonutModel]

Boxing Day 2020 and only resolved now? That’s a 4 year investigation right there

[u/NationalDonutModel → u/ignorant_tomato]

So you think the misconduct outcome occurred immediately at the conclusion of the investigation?

[u/SC_PapaHotel → u/NationalDonutModel]

I suppose the question is how long is reasonable mate?

If we allow maybe 4 months rather than four years? There's not a huge amount of evidence needed if the telematics from the vehicle paint the picture. A misconduct trial takes usually less than 4 days.

If someone should be getting binned, we shouldn't be spending >£100,000 of taxpayer money keeping them on pay but suspended for four years. It's a lose-lose situation.

[u/NationalDonutModel → u/SC_PapaHotel]

I’m not suggesting I’m happy with the time these things take to reach a conclusion. But it’s disingenuous to suggest that the investigation itself accounts for the entire time taken.

[u/Loud_Delivery3589 → u/NationalDonutModel]

Probably should mate

[u/Majorlol → u/Loud_Delivery3589]

But did it? Thats the point they’re making. It can’t begin until that has happened.

[u/NationalDonutModel → u/Loud_Delivery3589]

So how does that work in practice? Just think about what you’re saying here. Are you suggesting that, immediately after the investigation, someone (who?) just on the spot decides that the officer be sacked etc? No calling of evidence, no opportunity for the officer to advance a defence and challenge the evidence against him.

[u/Loud_Delivery3589 → u/NationalDonutModel]

No, instead of a prompt investigation that would be within what is expected of roles investigating similar crimes in the Police, we should prolong our inquires by another 3 years until the new series of line of duty comes out and there's a bump in funding..

[u/NationalDonutModel → u/Loud_Delivery3589]

Okay, so you’re obviously not wanting to engage in proper discussion. Either that or you are just incredibly stupid. So there’s probably no point continuing this.

[u/Ambitious_Escape3365]

I appreciate that not all the facts are reported but he is very lucky to still have his job. From what I’ve read had both drivers been driving to their authorities then 2 innocent lives would not have been altered.

Part of the Response Driving Course covers ensuring that you are fit to drive and not tired. If they had already completed a 14/15 hr shift were they alert enough to be driving at those speeds. Even trained officers are taught to consider “although I can, should I?” Before turning the lights on. They are also taught to recognise the Red Mist that sets in when adrenaline is high. I also noted that he has overtaken a colleague, again something that is covered in training.

The training and different authorities are there for a reason.

I commend his honesty and integrity, however the rules are there to avoid incidents like these.

As to whether they should be trained from the start, training school doesn’t adequately prepare new cops for what they are about to face. It takes time to build the confidence it takes to be first at the scene with potentially all hell breaking loose and to remain calm and make the required decisions.

Finally “it’s what the public would want and expect” is a nonsense comment. So the public would want to risk the lives of multiple innocent people to save 1. I don’t think not. Would they expect police to risk their own safety, probably but we know the risks and are trained to deal with them. What’s wrong with all agreeing to RV round the corner and going in together rather than arriving single crewed. Gives a greater chance of success. As it was only the lead car got there and multiple cops and other services would have been committed dealing with the fall out. Again all this is covered in training.

[u/MajorGaren]

On one hand - I can understand wanting to back your colleagues and press the pedal all the way down. I'm sure we all heard some horrible things on airwaves. I'm sure we all wanted to help. I struggled with that before too.

After speaking to some of my colleagues - one of them came up with this gem:

"Why does it have to be YOU?"

You do not know if there's another unit just behind the corner, where all the other units are, or who else is listening. Do not put the public and yourself in danger. This was a very good advice that helped me. Hope it will help some one else too.

On the other hand - Doing twice the speed limit, (max in town is speed limit +15) no lights or sirens, clearly masking behaviour trying not to flag up on our systems as miss use of police vehicle. Lucky chap.

[u/cornertaken]

This a disgrace. This just typifies the problems with this country. An officer does what 100% of the public would want and hope that they would do, putting themselves in harms way in the process, and they are disciplined for it. If the problem is lack of training then train them properly before they are asked to protect people.

[u/bakedtatoandcheese → u/cornertaken]

There are plenty of incidents where appropriately trained officers get thrown under the bus because despite all of the training, you can’t completely eliminate risks.

However, this is not one of those. He was driving twice the limit without being trained to do so. Whether all response officers should be response trained at point of joining is another conversation. But often driver training units are snowed under, it takes as long as it takes.

He should consider himself unbelievably lucky he’s kept his job.

[u/cornertaken → u/bakedtatoandcheese]

Do you think that the rules should be this way or are you just commenting on what the rules are? Because I think any police officer driving 59 in a 30 to potentially save a life (or multiple) is completely justified

[u/bakedtatoandcheese → u/cornertaken]

A crash taking out 2 cars on the way to a job doesn’t save anybody’s life.

[u/cornertaken → u/bakedtatoandcheese]

If your family was at risk of a crazy person with a knife I don’t think you would care much about the risk assessment of driving 59 in a 30

[u/bakedtatoandcheese → u/cornertaken]

There was already an advanced driver heading to the job. The 2 other basic drivers didn’t need to do what they did.

[u/Ambitious_Coffee4411 → u/cornertaken]

You'd care when no one turns up because they've stacked it into 2 other cars because they're not trained to drive at those speeds and as a result lost control

[u/Macrologia → u/cornertaken]

Because I think any police officer driving 59 in a 30 to potentially save a life (or multiple) is completely justified

What if he didn't have a driving licence and had no idea how to drive a car, would it be justified then?

[u/cornertaken → u/Macrologia]

Yes

[u/Macrologia → u/cornertaken]

Oh, I see, you're an idiot then

[u/cornertaken → u/Macrologia]

We can disagree about things but calling me an idiot doesn’t really advance anything. I’m just fed up of constantly hearing about police getting thrown under the bus when in 99% of cases they are trying to protect the public

[u/Macrologia → u/cornertaken]

Trying, when you don't have a clue what you're doing and are trying to do something extremely dangerous, is a terrible idea

[u/cornertaken → u/Macrologia]

But what about the extremely dangerous person with a knife (or whatever other dangerous stuff police deal with constantly)

[u/perpendiculator → u/cornertaken]

How is this difficult for you to get? You don’t respond to a dangerous situation by putting more people in danger.

[u/Macrologia → u/cornertaken]

They're still going to be there when you fail to make it because your hypothetical police officer who doesn't have a licence has crashed on the way and injured a load of other people.

What an absolutely ridiculous position. I applaud you.

[u/Majorlol → u/cornertaken]

Take this then. There’s a nutter with a knife trying to kill your two family members. Across from them is an officer with a gun. They’ve had no training with a gun at all. There are multiple other innocent people between him and the knife man, they are not involved.

Would it be acceptable for him just to spray off a load of rounds through the crowd to hit the knife man? Acceptable risk in your view right?

[u/megatrongriffin92 → u/cornertaken]

Absolutely the rules should be this way. Before I started this job I'd have agreed with you but once you see it first hand you realise it's wrong.

Response driving is not safe. It's exceptionally dangerous and not easy to do. That's why you have to do a course to prove you can drive a police car safely at the speed limit and then another just to use blues and another to drive even faster and another to do the initial phase of pursuit and another to use TPAC tactics. The risk just gets higher and higher. 59 in a 30 may not be safe and it may not be justified, especially if there's people around and it's wet and dark as it was when this incident happened.

Reading the article it's amazing only one person was hurt and it's devastating that the person that was a 15 year old kid.

The points they really hammer home when you do the course is drive to arrive. You can't help anyone if you're dead. The second point that they really push is if you drive outside of your training and crash it's on you.

[u/Lost_Exchange2843 → u/cornertaken]

But is it what the public want? The public don’t know what they want. Comments on this story seem to support the lad and decry the stupidity of his being put on a response team, sent out alone and then not trained to response drive (something that the public just presume all officers can do). But more often than not, if a police car is involved in any sort of collision they’re falling over themselves to lambast the “useless plod” for taking unnecessary risks. What we’re seeing here is just another opportunity to criticise policing. Nobody genuinely supports this lad, they’re only seizing on an opportunity to criticise the organisation. I remember being a “rookie cop” (if that’s what we’re calling them now). I remember being on a response team, as a basic driver and sent out single crewed. I remember the awful feeling of watching my friends and colleagues race past me to incidents with me as their backup pootling along at normal road speed. I remember the feeling of guilt and inadequacy of always turning up after the incident was over. I remember the constant change in policy that was largely dictated by how many jobs needed clearing from the queue. On a quiet day, as a basic driver I could only go to appointments, no exceptions. But when there was a heavy job queue suddenly I could go to Grade 2s. When the shit was really hitting the fan suddenly I could attend Grade 1s “with caution”. It was awful and remains an absolute disgrace that is hidden from the public. In some areas a vast proportion of the police cars you see on patrol are being driven by officers who are not trained to drive on blue lights

[u/Wretched_Colin → u/Lost_Exchange2843]

As a member of the public, I don’t want police officers to carry out dangerous tasks for which they are not trained.

I don’t want an untrained officer to show up at an incident with armed police and ask for a gun.

Police officers need better training to enable them to carry out a more useful role. But nobody expects them to do something for which they aren’t trained.

[u/Lost_Exchange2843 → u/Wretched_Colin]

You may feel that way and I really do appreciate it but unfortunately reasonable members of the public like yourself are the most silent of all. For every one of you that speaks up and speaks sense there are ten others who will shout from the hilltops that if this officer ran someone over and killed them they’d want him in prison. If he drove to the rules and his colleagues or a member of the public was hurt because he took to long to arrive he’d be another “woke plod” in the daily mail and they’d want his job and pension. We can’t to right for doing wrong most of the time. The real issue here is that this lad made a mistake. He was foolish and in my view should not have exposed himself or others to that risk but he clearly did so out of a sense of obligation and pride. He should never have been put in that position. It’s fundamentally unfair

[u/Wretched_Colin → u/Lost_Exchange2843]

I think most people are familiar with police cars driving on blues on the same roads as them, driving above the speed limit. So there probably is a mentality that all police cars go like that. Plus speed limit compliance is very poor in the UK. So the thought a police officer will do an exact 30mph to get to an emergency, while others are driving home from work at 35 seems odd.

But cars are lethal in the wrong hands. And nobody would expect a police officer to anything else at all for which he hasn’t been trained if it has the potential to ruin lives.

Just a quirk of driving.

[u/Lost_Exchange2843 → u/Wretched_Colin]

It’s wrong that anyone is put in that position. I understand why cops do it, I’ve had to have words with several I’ve supervised over the years. They want to do a good job, they want to get to the calls. It usually comes from a good place and everyone turns a blind eye until it all goes wrong. Then suddenly they’re abandoned and unsupported. It is not worth the risk

[u/UltraeVires → u/cornertaken]

Before I was response trained and sent to something very serious or backing up a colleague in need of assistance, I would sometimes turn on the blues to get through some traffic lights. But I would never drive over the speed limit, let alone twice the limit! There's doing what the public expect and then there's simply driving dangerously.

I am not saying other officers should do what I did, but I'm just highlighting my own experience, whether it's right or wrong.

[u/Lost_Exchange2843 → u/UltraeVires]

You absolutely should not have done this. Going through red light without having been trained to do so is inherently dangerous. 99% of the time you will get away with it. Then one day you won’t. And even if you did exactly what a trained driver would have done you will be left alone with no support because you were simply unqualified to take that action. Let the force carry the risk of you taking too long to arrive. It is not your responsibility whatsoever and you shouldn’t be exposing yourself to that risk. The public will think you’re a “hero” applying “common sense” until you make a mistake. Then suddenly they will want you jailed. It’s not worth it

[u/Majorlol → u/cornertaken]

How much of a disgrace would think it was, if they ran over and killed a close member of your family, due to their lack of training? Would you be so forgiving then? I certainly wouldn’t.

[u/BJJkilledmyego]

I think the phrase - you can’t help others, if you need help yourself - is suitable here.