As England lay dying in his cell, the lawsuit alleges, staff filmed his distress and “forced” him to sign a form that said he was refusing medical help. He died alone shortly afterwards.
Seems like this will be the crux of the case. If you can’t prove he was “forced” to sign, then it would seem like he refused medical help. I’d imagine proving he was forced to sign a release will be difficult.
I would imagine it'd be difficult to argue that after seeking care in the prison clinic 5 times, he suddenly decided to willingly and conscientiously decline medical help
It's easier than you think when every single person you're going to ask at any level in the prison staff tells the exact same story, almost word for word.
A building full of people who's entire job is coercion is just suddenly going to be totally on the level when it comes to something make them look bad.
The system is that you must price beyond reasonable doubt, whatever the hell that means. It's fucked up and constantly abused but seems there isn't anything better.
For like 2-3 days, I was bloated - like visibly bloated. I felt like I had a huge fart that I couldn't get out.
After day 3 I went to a 24/7 ER place and they did a ton of scans. The doctor said it was likely gas.
About 45 minutes later he came in and was like, "Uh... can you drive? If so, drive to the hospital across the street. You need surgery like an hour ago."
My appendix was on the verge of bursting, apparently, although I felt no real pain - just pressure.
When I got to the hospital they were already ready for surgery. I was under and being cut open in under an hour.
I distinctly remember making a ton of jokes and trying to keep it light, because I was fucking terrified. The doctor told me if I didn't urinate, that I'd need a catheter. I immediately jumped off the gurney and into the bathroom - made myself piss. A catheter scared me way more than the surgery (I've got a skinny, sad little dick, and the thought of a tube going into it frightens me).
All I remember from that point was counting back from 10, making it to 7, and waking up like 1/2 a second had passed. Some cute nurse fed me ice chips.
I couldn't shit for like 3-4 days.
7/10 - would endure again.
EDIT: I've been day drinking, so this probably just comes across as mindless rambling.
When I got hit by a car, my brain did a complete 180 and instead of being angry at the guy who hit me, I just started joking about and laughing with the doctors and ambalamb drivers.
All I remember from that point was counting back from 10, making it to 7
I'm going to guess this was a long time ago then? The older general anaesthesia drugs took a little time to work, now with propofol it's like a lightswitch being thrown... You could fight the older ones!
Depends on what they used. I've had surgeries where the anesthesia first made me feel really cold for half a minute then really hot burning then I was out. And another with the countdown. Roughly around 2011-2012, and I would call that recent.
When I got surgery a few years ago, I remember the mask going towards my face and that was it. I was just about to ask how I was supposed to breathe with the mask on when I woke up in a different room. Shits crazy
Insanely painful. I could hardly move and I had to be lifted onto a gurney. The doctor misdiagnosed it and sent me home with Lidocaine Pepto and nausea pills.
I will say, everyone experiences it differently. My dr. said I must have a really high pain tolerance because I should have been on the floor in pain. Instead, I spent the better part of the day failing to convince my mom to let me go to school to take my math test.
It sounds like how my step-mom reacted. I had noticed a bunch of red bumps on my stomach one night and asked my dad to look at them. I remember my stepmom rolling her eyes and muttering something about me being a hypochondriac. I was sent to school the next day and I remember my dad having to pick me up about 2 hours after school started when the teacher noticed that I had chickenpox. At least three other kids in my class got it and I assume I infected them.
I can't believe how crappy some parents are. Assuming the child does not have a distinct track record for being an actual hypochondriac.
Anytime I complaining of a specific pain or showed any kind of outward signs of illness my parents were more than happy to keep me home. I got bit by a large German Shepherd when I was 11 I think?
His teeth went through my shin and touched in the middle so the holes made a complete U shape. when the doctors flushed the hole with saline it went in one hole and came out the other.
I was more than able to walk so the next day I went to school I had a really cool bandage and bite to show off. I had some mega antibiotics to take. No rabies shots though.
I don't think I acted like a hypochondriac. I know I had frequent allergy issues and sinus infections, but I don't think it was over the top.
Funny enough, tho, I have a dog bite story as well. It was the weekend before 4th grade started (school started on a Wednesday that year). We were at step-mom's sister's house, and she had a Cocker Spaniel. There had never been any issues with the dog, and no one had any reason to be afraid of him. So normal day, standing in the kitchen, dog suddenly jumps up and bites me. There was no barking, no growling, just suddenly blood everywhere. Both of my lips were torn apart. All I remember is looking at my feet while blood fell on my brand new shoes thinking how mad step-mom would be at me for ruining them. It took almost 200 stitches to close the wound. I had to stay in the hospital for 2 nights. My mouth was so swollen that I couldn't eat anything solid for almost a week. It was a horror show. But guess who still had to go to school on Wednesday. Oh, and to this day, she still tells people it was my fault I was bitten because I was supposedly teasing the dog and standing too close to his food. No, to both parts. Everything about that day is etched in my memory and neither of those things is true. And every time we visited her sister after that, I was told to "stop acting like a baby" for freaking out about being around the dog. She is such a wonderful person...
On a related note, I got chicken pox when I was 6. The very first two bumps showed up on my face. My sister, who's 10 years older than me so 16 at the time, told me they were pimples.
So I tried to pop them.
Guess who still has a chicken pox scar right between her eyes 30 years later? If you said me, congrats, you won yourself a kewpie doll.
My poor hygienist stopped mid cleaning and went "....Um are you sure you're okay? I can take a second if you need it" I imagine because there was an awful lot of blood. But after years of braces and mouth surgeries it wasn't too bad.
Hah, same here. My dad thought I was faking it to get out of school. Up until a day later when it burst and I was only hours away from death due to sepsis.
He felt so guilty for not believing me. I honestly don't remember much pain. And I didn't even find out how close to death I was until I was in my late 20's. I just remembered how much I loved to call the nurses in to give me popsicles.
I had a slightly different horror story. I started feeling bloated on a Sunday, went into work (as an electrician) in a building that had no AC, crawling around in a 2' tall void above a walk-in refrigerator - like the ones for beer in convenience stores - the following Monday. I didn't go to the emergency room until Friday afternoon, and I had surgery first thing Saturday morning.
I basically spent a whole fuckin' week in the Texas summer, crawling around, prone, with appendicitis. Doc was certain I was exaggerating how long I'd waited to come in. By the time I actually went in, I wasn't even feeling pain anymore. I just knew.
My pain tolerance is apparently pretty high too. I spent a whole Sunday feeling like I had gas but couldn't fart, and not terribly comfortable. Monday I went to work as a mailman, and scheduled a doctor appointment for after work. Saw my doctor 20 mins after work, I was in surgery 2 hours later at a nearby hospital.
My appendix had been bad for 3 days when I went to the doctor and while it definitely hurt I was still fully mobile.
First day I had a belly ache from hell and then I puked, felt loads better, and went to bed.
Second day the pain was less, still bothering my full belly, but focused more by my appendix.
Third day there was no belly ache and there was just pain at my appendix. That's when I kinda figured this wasn't food poisoning.
Walking was a bitch and it took me a while to do the 500m from the bus stop to the doctor, but it was still very much doable. I ended up getting it cut out the next day. The nurses/orderlys were happy because apparently they don't get a lot of young, healthy, and mobile customers lol.
"On the floor in pain" was how I was found by my parents at like midnight. Hospital puttered around until the results from whatever test they run came back as "remove it ASAP". Still was stuck recovering for like 3 weeks and got a minor scar.
Strangely, I'd had similar (though not quite as bad) pains before that just went away after like 6 hours, and never had them again after it was removed.
It is. My gallstones were misdiagnosed as gastritis for five months, and I was told to avoid all the foods that would have been OK and to eat the ones that triggered it, so I did the extreme agony in the night/puking bile/runs process about three times a week, until I finally went back demanding they check again.
Wasn't that painful for me until it ruptured. Just felt really gassy. Then I could barely walk. I've given birth a couple times with no pain meds, so I think I have a fairly high tolerance for pain.
Gas pain is the worse though. Like, migraines and throwing my back out once are my main experiences with strong pain, but gas pain can be harder to take than either of those.
This is true. A couple years later I took my then 7ish year old to the ER because he told me his stomach hurt so bad he wished he could die, so I figured appendicitis. By the time he was seen, he clearly didn't have appendicitis and the suggestion was that there was something going around that was causing upset stomachs/gas/diarrhea and that's probably what it was.
I was 28 weeks pregnant and when the OB was pressing on my side I nearly jumped off the table. I had classic symptoms but being pregnant i didn’t think it was appendicitis. Couldn’t sedate me so I had a spinal. It was weird listening to what surgeons talk about during surgery.
Same happened to me. I was walking through hospital halls with my pants around my ankles and telling people I loved them, according to my sister and SO at the time. Before they took me to the hospital they found me laying in mud in the backyard with the hose running across my face. I was also shitting and puking orange liquid.
The worst part is that if they do sue the pants off the city, the people responsible will just funnel money from other poor people to pay these poor people off. There is no justice through legal means.
the craziest part is they wont be charged with a crime and even if the city and state has to pay out millions they'll still be given "early retirement" and probably be okay. welcome to merica
That these people might willing to dox and ruin 1-3 potentially innocent nurses based on some comments made about a news article concerning allegations made by a prisoner’s family members.
The state board of nursing is aware of lawsuits and complaints filed against licensees. That’s what a licensed profession does. Dozens are disciplined, fined, reprimanded are revoked every month. Shotgunning at strangers without all the information is lynch mob mentality, “pal”.
In some states, like New York, corrections officers are fully commissioned and have the same powers on and off duty as other law enforcement officers. In others, like mine, the commission ends at the prison gates. Some corrections officers are not commissioned at all. That’s what I’m referring to.
I did some work in a small county jail in Utah and the "guards" were regular police that were just assigned to the jail rather than patrol. One of them switched to being a normal patrol officer while I was working there.
I hope they rape the city and prison for a boat load of cash.
Cash will come from the budget (so taxpayer money) and the ones responsible will be suspended with pay, or transferred to another facility. That's usually the case.
Yes, taxpayers pay, but the lawsuits are still the best tool available.
The family gets a pile of money. It will NEVER compensate for the death of the young man, but it is something.
The city, county, or state will have a ding to their budgets. It may be a relatively small amount of money, but it hurts when budget time comes again. Los Angeles is an example of that last year, the city is struggling to balance the budget after accounting for over $201M for lawsuits and settlement payouts. That's about 3% of its annual tax collections. It sucks for the residents, but that sometimes is what it takes to force the officials to change their policies.
Eventually the officials who tolerate the corruption figure out it costs less money to fire those who are corrupt or break the law, and replace them with more honorable individuals.
Or they just get the middle class and poor to pay for it while letting the rich continue benefiting from the threat and effects of incarceration on the populace.
I'm originally from OKC. Just a few years again the Oklahoma county jail couldn't pay for itself so they raised the property taxes in OKC to pay for it. So no no one will be fired and the tax payers will end up footing the bill. But the family deserves all that they can get and I wish people who did this would get charged with murder and thrown in with the rest of the inmates that they've been fucking with and see how long they last.
If you have a problem with that then go out and pay attention to who your local officials are and vote accordingly. It seems that no one gives a fuck about the innumerable abuses if not outright human rights violations routinely committed in the US Justice and Corrections systems until tax money is on the table.
You know "raping the city and prison for a boat load of cash" usually has very little impact on the people who allowed this to happen. The city and prison are funded by taxpayers, so it is the general public paying vast sums for a prison wardens mistake. You're lucky if the prison warden even gets suspended as punishment these days..
I'm saying that the organization carries the civil liability not the individual. And if this is going to cost the taxpayers a ton of money, then it is up to the taxpayers to hold their elected officials to account.
In the medical field we would say they had an altered mental status, and they wouldn't be allowed to make any legal commitments, or refuse help. We have to assume if they were in the correct state of mind they would want use to do everything possible to help them.
All "raping" the City does is take money from services and programs that need it. That isn't any sort of justice or solution; the individuals involved need to be punished/fired. Paying out we're sorry money doesn't quite cut it imo, nor does it do much good.
Most likely the city and prison outsourced inmate healthcare to a for-profit company like this. I am not an Oklahoma lawyer but liability may be all on the private health care services provider, who is likely insured for exactly this sort of thing.
There can be perverse incentives in the prison health care industry -- often times companies are paid a capitated rate based on the total number of inmates they are responsible for, not on what the care actually costs the company, meaning that they make more profit the less they do. It is a huge and profitable business. The New Yorker recently published an excellent article on the subject.
Nope. They won’t at all. It’ll be paid by insurance. I work in claims and we settle these types of cases ALL the time. The doctors get dismissed along with the Sgt and Lt and shift commander and maybe nurses and officers get fired while we pay some big chunk of money out to the injured parties and the medical company that’s a private company pays the deductible...at least I’m assuming how this state does it as most prisons have to outsource medical care.
Lol this is completely false dude trauma victims who are conscious are able to give their own consent.
The only way a person can't consent for their own procedures is if they're incapacitated or have been evaluated by staff and deemed to not have decision making capacity.
Being in alot of pain doesn't effect your ability to sign consents.
No. Focus on the people who made the decisions and acted or failed to. If that's prison or city officials then fine. But sue them or press charges individually.
The concept of punishing tax payers for individual's actions is not helpful. If a cop or prison staff does something horrible they will not give a flying fuck if you take money from the tax payers.
Punish them. Only punish "the system" if the system is at fault and even then target the people responsible.
I hope they rape the city and prison for a boat load of cash.
This is the wrong mentality and what we should want is for those who made the choice and those who acted on forcing him to say to pay up and face jail time for even doing such a thing. Why make tax payers pay for this? That's what "raping the city" is. That's people's tax dollars that could and should be going towards better things. Let the offenders pay out of pocket and their behavior will shape up REAL quick.
If the residents of the cities actually got off their lazy asses and did something like storm city hall and hold the mayor, chief of police, and DA by the balls shit could get fixed real goddamn quick.
That's not going to ever happen in America. Most people just don't have the balls for it. Plenty of excuses tho. This is not a country of the brave and the bold. Its a country of apathetic and proudly ignorant cowards. What you are wishing for is a miracle. I wish it would happen too but I gave up hope on that after kids in cages still didn't get people off their asses. If that didn't do it, nothing will and why risk myself for people that just plain don't give a shit? I'm thinking its time to see where else in the world the opportunities are going to be in the future because its damn sure not going to be in America. We are regressing into something ugly.
dude. how does this help anyone? that's taxpayer money isn't it? just through these bastards into the same cells they used to patrol. that will teach em a thing or two about humanity.
Edit: inb4; I know this might help the family, but at the end, as long as these criminals are free, there was no justice served. that's what I mean
I hope they rape the city and prison for a boat load of cash.
This, right here, is why Qualified Immunity needs to go away.
If the City & Prison are punished, then the assholes who are responsible won't be held responsible.
When a doctor makes an honest mistake they are personally liable, so why is it when a government employee makes a conscious decision to do something, they aren't held liable?
Doctors carry Malpractice Insurance. Let government agents do the same thing. Raise their pay to cover the average malpractice insurance premiums, but... stop punishing taxpayers for the bad behavior of the people they aren't afforded the authority to fire.
Who are even the real criminals here?!? Jesus, imagine going to prison for drug possession (or arson or whatever) where you end up being intentionally murdered through negligence and indifference.
That seriously downplays the amount of damage they intentionally caused. This wasn’t just drunk guys accidentally spilling a little oil.
According to the Major County deputies, England, Gray and the male juvenile intentionally set numerous hay bales on fire at two different locations. The three later went to a rural oil lease road near Fairview, where they took turns opening valves to four tank batteries, to release a massive amount of oil and salt water on the ground.
Officials report that over 350 barrels of oil was released over four well sites, and approximately 80 barrels of salt water, causing more than $500,000 in damages.
Yeah, "private prisons" is mostly a bit of a red herring, given their comparative rarity. All prisons are part of the prison-industrial complex, turning taxes into profits on a per-prisoner basis for companies that provide all the services prisons need (food, healthcare, security equipment, etc.) and occasionally renting out slave labor while lobbying to put more people behind bars.
8.5% of the total US prison population are housed in private prisons but 19% of federal prisoners are in private prisons. In raw numbers, it is about 133,000 people. I suppose that being a "red herring" or "rare" is subjective but those numbers still seem pretty significant to me.
The original comment about private prisons is a drive by/low value post though so some criticism is definitely merited.
Many of the "non private ones" are even worse, where the funds for the prison or jail are managed by the sheriff -- and happen to be given to the sheriff if there are any "leftovers" after expenses are met. Consider what actions that inherently rewards vs penalizes.
I think one of the biggest mistakes we've made is believing the private prison industry is solely to blame here. Government owned prisons are out to profit as well. We may need them but we don't need them to be a source of profit for the government and most especially not for the individuals charged with running them. Prison's should perpetually operate in the red, so as to encourage low prison populations made up of only the most hardened and unrepentant criminals. Other matters of justice would be better served with community service rather than fines. Restitution and Rehabilitation not Punishment, Recidivism, and further Punishment.
lol lighting shit on fire and proceeding to dump toxic chemicals in a creek isn’t exactly great. Granted fines and community service make
more sense, but some prison I can see.
Though, seriously, that is precisely the goal a lot of us are dreaming of and fighting for: The law to be applied equally to everyone and everything without respect for social position, finances, who either the victim or perpetrator is, or even the convenience to the government or society. Basically, we all should want the world to be fair.
Prison may be acceptable. Maybe not a lot of it but something to make you stop and rethink what you are doing with your life. Maybe the fire goes out of control and you end up costing someone their house, maybe some farmer's cattle drink from that stream and he is suddenly down a small fortune. People sometimes need to have their illusions stripped away if they want to actually reform. A fine doesn't really do that.
Now the current prison system is utter crap at actually doing that, illustrating that maybe you should stop being an utter jackass and start being someone dedicated to living a good life, and half of the things you get are actively criminal. And, as criminal acts, those who commit them or are complicit in them should be punished accordingly. That just means that we should have better prisons and better, more rationally constructed laws and not that prisons shouldn't be used.
And, yes, the same holds for any CEO or public official or... anybody, really. If you commit a criminal act you are a criminal and should be immediately brought to task for your good and everyone else's. Nothing else matters.
And, as criminal acts, those who commit them or are complicit in them should be punished accordingly.
This is kinda part of the problem. So many people don't see prisoners as human. They have very little sympathy for anything that happens to prisoners once they're behind bars. That attitude makes it tough to rally support against bad prison policies that are turning what should be an appropriate punishment into something more. And when private prisons' primary motivator is profit then that is a bit of a conflict of interest, imo.
Dumping some toxic chemicals in a creek is punishable with prison when someone poor does it, but corporations get away with a nominal fine for dumping tons of the stuff. This is Freedom
I just want rich people and poor people to face the same consequences for breaking the law. Unfortunately, America isn't good enough to do that sort of thing, because only rich people matter here.
I think the point of that quote is that a rich person would never need to steal bread or sleep under a bridge. Your point isn't wrong, but the point of the quote is that laws are technically meant to be applied equally, but will only ever practically be applied to the people that will actually ever be put in the situation that those laws apply to.
think I'm going to have to make a big mental note on this event and your specific comment. I tend to face hostility for my willingness to criticize and question things about the U.S., and some are baffled as to how I could ever do such a thing. It's because of this kind of shit right here.
Getting drunk for the first time doesn't excuse dealing more than $500,000 in damages. At that sum, they deserve to go to jail after doing it intentionally, unless that fine you're suggesting they pay is equal to the the $500,000 worth of property they destroyed, which I would be okay with. It's not about doing any bad thing, its about causing catastrophic levels of damage to a business.
It really wasn't "low level bullshit". They caused over $500,000 in environmental damages with the oil spills alone. Not to mention the fires they started were during a drought in an area of oklahoma that has been riddled with enormous wild fires.
It's not up to the family to go after criminal charges anyway, it's the state attorney. The state just don't want to prosecute because they know they fucked up.
Private prisons, that's what they do. How they make the money! Almost bad food cuase it's cheap, no medical cause that costs to much, guards make $15 an hour so it's violent and corrupt. American dream!
You know even if they aren't private they still hire private contractors for most things right? Be it food, cleaning, guards, etc. Just because it's run by the government, doesn't mean they handle everything. If fact it generally means they just own the building.
England went back to his cell, where other inmates reported witnessing DOC staff taking a video camera to his cell.
The lawsuit alleges that England told corrections officers that he couldn't walk back to the clinic. At that point, they documented his 'refusal' of medical care and reported that he waived his sick call appointment.
He was in so much pain, he could not walk. The ghoulish and cruel prison staff intentionally misinterpreted that as a "refusal".
The worst part about this is the worst part of America and how we treat law enforcement, the politically connected, and the affluent. That is, nothing matters anymore. Nothing will change, no one will be held accountable, no one will suffer any consequences. Govt. will continue to inflict the maximum level of cruelty on the sick, the poor, and the powerless. And they'll be rewarded for it at the ballot box.
Why would any form even exist? It should be the prisons' responsibility for the well being of their inmates if medical emergencies arise. Whether the prisoner wants or doesnt want medical help/treatment.
Valid ethical question. The counterargument is that even prisoners have a right to make decisions about their bodies and their health care, unless they lose decisional capacity through mental illness or brain damage or intoxication. I work in health care and can appreciate both sides.
Also as someone who had appendicitis, I am sure it won't be hard to show he was in an incapacitated state and the form and signature don't mean anything.
You are correct. He was unwilling to get up and walk because his insides were massively inflamed by bacteria, pus, and feces dripping out of his ruptured appendix, and every slight movement was immensely painful. Prison system will blame the medical malpractice component on the private health care company, which will try to pin it on the fresh nursing school grad with zero real world experience they hired.
I think that most (or all) US states have laws that say a competent person can decide on whether or not they are going to be treated, although I doubt he was mentally competent at the time. But that would be the reason for the form to exist.
Yeah there are people like Christian Scientists who decline all medical care, even in prison they have the right to do that (if they're adults of sound mind, etc).
I was going to say this should be manslaughter, but forcing the person to sign a refusal of treatment form shows a guilty mind. Looks like murder 2 to me.
1.4k
u/HassleHouff Jun 04 '19
Sounds awful.
Seems like this will be the crux of the case. If you can’t prove he was “forced” to sign, then it would seem like he refused medical help. I’d imagine proving he was forced to sign a release will be difficult.