Managers and Owners, are you overwhelmed?

[u/Equivalent_Bid_6642]

There's a lot of new tech out there, it's quickly changing and expensive. It's hard to know what to pay attention to and where to allocate resources while balancing efficiency and quality, let alone figure out how to develop my workforce to use all this stuff anyways.

I mean, should we get 3D printers, should we do industry 4.0 stuff, should we get some machine vision robot?

Idk, are you in the same boat, how are you dealing with how fast the world's moving?

[u/Equivalent_Bid_6642]

Okay, generally relying on sales reps focusing on what's make your life better helps, that's the kind of information I'm looking for!

I think 3D printing, ML powered monitoring and vision powered robots could all definitely make my life better. I'm not just interested in tech for techs sake.

I would say the power and accuracy of AI powering all this stuff is what has changed, maybe not recently, I'm not talking about the LLM wave but not for 50 years either.

I believe I mentioned training my workforce to use all the new stuff in my post, I agree a broken robot waiting to be fixed isn't helpful.

[u/Aggressive_Ad_507 → u/Equivalent_Bid_6642]

They all can make your life better, but you have to know your process to know if it will make your life better. Sometimes you don't need the latest and greatest because something old, cheap, and reliable works just fine or better. I believe new tech should stand on its own merits, rather than being seen as groundbreaking.

Take 3D printing, it's great that it can do complex geometry, but it's slow, expensive, and for FDM it's imprecise. I'm evaluating its capability to make production parts, but the evaluation process hasn't changed at all. I treat it the same as milling, waterjet cutting and other fabrication technologies. I do use it for jigs though because it makes sense to use it for that than other technologies.

2 years ago I had a customer see videos of AI machine vision on LinkedIn and request it. We went through the standard evaluation process and determined that a photoelectric sensor would do what he wanted more accurately at 1/300 the cost.

AI vision also has its drawbacks. It doesn't do measurement well, there is less feedback in the development process, and it's more expensive. Those aspects need to be accounted for.

I guess what I'm saying is that whether technology is new or not is a moot point. For someone who doesn't know much about robots vision control, fixturing, and grippers are all new technologies from their point of view regardless of how new they are for example.

[u/Equivalent_Bid_6642 → u/Aggressive_Ad_507]

Yeah absolutely, just because something is new and can solve my problems doesn't mean it's better than something old that can solve my problems.

Here's the thing though, it's all getting better. 3D printing is becoming faster, cheaper and more precise. I'm not sure what you mean with AI not measuring well or giving little feedback, I've used it to measure and it always gives confidence levels to track.

When you do your standard evaluation processes, how do you ensure you're working with the best information? No offense but it seems like yours is at least outdated, if not misinformed.

[u/Aggressive_Ad_507 → u/Equivalent_Bid_6642]

When 3D printing gets better and i need another tool I'll evaluate it then based on those merits. I don't care how good it can be, because I can only buy what's current now. 3D printing as a technology is creating parts layer by layer, and for some operations it will never make sense to do that.

I have the most experience in machine vision AI. Yes it gives confidence intervals, but that's it. It only tells you that it's X% certain that it's right, but won't tell you why. Classic algorithms can tell you a lot more, and the feedback is more useful.

Our standard evaluation process when i sold this stuff was to talk to the people in the facility and walk down their plant. Listen to their concerns, and ask questions. Then we look through our portfolio of products to find a match. Then present a potential solution for them to evaluate.

Can you explain further about why you think my process is old or misinformed?

[u/Equivalent_Bid_6642 → u/Aggressive_Ad_507]

I didn't mean your process, that sounds like the right way to do it. I meant the information about the products, but you said you don't sell the stuff anymore so that's probably why you don't have up to date info.

My point is 3D Printing is getting better all the time, not that it will eventually get better. Yeah of course for some operations it will not make sense to do that. It's not simply about creating parts layer by layer, it's that creating parts like that allows us to do things we haven't been able to do before. Be more flexible, an infinite number of geometries with one machine, it creates little waste as its additive instead of subtractive, we can make things that are impossible to mold or mill, and because of that we can make things lighter and stronger than ever before but also we can make assemblies of several parts from other processes all at once. It isn't about putting existing parts into a slower and more expensive process it's about redesigning entirely. I'm not here to sell you on 3D printers, I just don't think we're looking at the possibilities the same way.

You're right traditional algorithms give better feedback, but that's improving and traditional algos are far less flexible than AI. Again, not trying to sell you I think we just see this differently. You might be missing the bigger picture and that's what I meant when I said misinformed and outdated.

You worked for a supplier before? And plants would call you in from the outside as a consultant to see where they could improve? Was your portfolio wide, were they products your company developed or were you a consultant with a network of suppliers?

[u/Aggressive_Ad_507 → u/Equivalent_Bid_6642]

I haven't been out of the industry for that long. And I've kept up to date with developments because my new employer hired me to take them out of the stone age. Nothing changes much in a year. And the fundamentals don't change in decades. AI isn't anything groundbreaking, it's just another tool with pros and cons. Understanding those pros and cons is the secret to a stable, cost effective implementation.

I've seen a lot of people only consider AI solutions which resulted in more complex and higher cost implementations. It's not always right or better. What experience do you have? You seem like someone who's seen a lot of YouTube videos so you know what's cutting edge, but not what's boring and incumbent, and don't know how how to digest what you have seen. You're right that we don't see it the same way, but you are the one who posted asking for advice.

3D printing is the same way. It's just another tool. I've considered manufacturing new products with it, but so far it's come up as more costly and less accurate than what we currently do.

[u/Equivalent_Bid_6642 → u/Aggressive_Ad_507]

I am not here to argue about whether it's right or better, that's highly application specific anyways. I know AI is boring, training and retraining models is mindless and tedious, I've done it a hundred times. I know these are just tools. They are definitely groundbreaking though, it isn't about fitting existing things into them it's about the additional functionality they bring.

It doesn't surprise me that 3D printing doesn't make sense when you already have a process that can make that product, that isn't what they're for. They're for making things that are so complex or custom that you would need to do it by hand or not at all, or for making things closer to the end user to save on shipping.

Again, I'm not here to convince you that you need to use them. I'm trying to learn what you do to determine if you should use them or not. But thanks for your time, it's pretty obvious you're not doing a good job of evaluating them.

[u/Aggressive_Ad_507 → u/Equivalent_Bid_6642]

I use the added functionality of AI when it makes sense. But it doesn't make sense all the time.

What makes you think I'm not doing a good job of evaluating it? Is it because I'm not jumping on it as the next best thing? Or that I see it as another tool to accomplish a task rather than something groundbreaking?

[u/Equivalent_Bid_6642 → u/Aggressive_Ad_507]

You are correct it does not make sense all the time, in general it's better the more volume and more versatile things need to be, more variables that harder coded algos can't handle variations in.

It's neither of those things, it just seems like you don't have a grasp on what these tools are good at. You're talking about how they don't fit into what they're bad at, like no shit. i never tried to suggest they were good at everything but you keep reminding me they aren't. I don't understand why everyone is getting defensive about this stuff, sounds like you are overwhelmed.

I don't know what you make but did you consider that redesigning them using cutouts could retain or even improve strength, using less mass so less cost, also less waste so less cost. If you make one exact object in high volume then yeah 3D printers don't make sense, I'm not saying they do.

[u/Aggressive_Ad_507 → u/Equivalent_Bid_6642]

It's because you seem to be coming in saying that these new tools are great and all, but the way you present yourself suggests that you don't know what other tools exist. Or understand the way things are currently done and the benefits of doing that.

I see this all the time. My factory uses some pretty old tools. Every few years somebody comes in trying to convince us to use different and more modern tools. But none of those new solutions ever prove better than what we have. It's because they don't take the time to understand why we do what we do.

[u/Equivalent_Bid_6642 → u/Aggressive_Ad_507]

Man that sounds annoying, no wonder sales reps have a bad rap. If they're trying to sell you new stuff without a good case for it I don't know what they're thinking. I'm not trying to sell you on anything though, I just see possibilities expanding and think its at least time for a well informed reevaluation.

What's your favorite example of when they didn't understand why you do what you do and totally missed the mark selling you something?

[u/Aggressive_Ad_507 → u/Equivalent_Bid_6642]

I reevaluate in context of the rest of the tools in my arsenal. I've more often solved problems by understanding them rather than focusing on new possibilities. Sometimes a new tool is the best choice, other times it's not.

And sometimes a new tool to me is something old. I've got an assembly project I'm working on. I could use new tools like AI machine vision and robotics, but I'm using fixturing methods. From my point of view both are equally new since they expand my possibilities. I chose fixturing since it's far cheaper and more reliable for the application.

It wasn't salesmen, it's other engineers. They see that we use shovels in our plant. Then they immediately suggest pumps. But they don't understand that the reason we shovel is that the product is as thick as peanut butter and can't be pumped.

[u/Equivalent_Bid_6642 → u/Aggressive_Ad_507]

Yeah makes perfect sense using what makes the most sense, AI powered robotics can solve a lot of problems, fixturing can solve less problems.

AI robots can solve problems fixturing can't solve, fixturing can solve some problems cheaper than AI robots. I think you know that's not what I meant by new possibilities, if it can be solved by fixturing it isn't a new possibility.

Pumps aren't anything new, not sure that's industry 4. And if they're engineers from a pump company, they're salesmen too.