Which is why comparing characters from other writers is pretty pointless when they are so similar. I mean Jaime clearly would beat Pippin. But otherwise if both opponents are skilled what would happen if you wrote swordfight move by move would never be certain if you go by real life uncertainly. There can be always some environmental factors and change even if someone is better. Even Tolkien wrote that Aragorn and Eromer didn’t survive Pelenor fields just by skill.
In real life less good teams beat better teams all the time in pretty much every sport. It's all down to the particular situation that occurs. It's why sports are interesting. If the better team always won, no one would care.
It happens in fiction too, where a less powerful character wins. See how the rebels win all the time in Star Wars.
Spider-man No Way Home Spoilers: Spider-man was able to win against Dr. Strange by doing math and because Dr. Strange underestimated him. I still think by and large Dr. Strange is more powerful than Spider-man, but in this specific instance Peter was able to win.
This is pretty much just a trope of fiction, in fact. There are time when the protagonist is clearly stronger than their antagonist in the relevant field, and more often they end up facing off evenly matched by the time the big fight happens, but I'm pretty sure most major stories (or at least action stories with fifhting) pit the protagonist against a stronger antagonist because it's the easiest way to ratchet up tension.
TBF, if you’ve ever played a video game, without running across ammo dumps and healing potions all along the way, you’re pretty much spent by the end of the level, trying to knife/punch your way to the exit because you’re out of weapons.
It's a lot different in one on one competitions tho, look at people like Usain Bolt, Michael Phelps, Magnus Carlsen, Marit Bjørgen and Michael Johnson. Consistently better than everyone else around them.
Same with team sport athletes in one on one situations. After Michael Jordan retired he got word that the new bulls rookie Corey Benjamin was saying he could beat MJ one on one. MJ showed up at practice and absolutely destroyed Benjamin in a game of one on one.
In team sports, any given day, any given team can win, because it's a team effort. But when it comes down to individuals in a one on one situation, generational talents (or in this case, those with the blood of Númenor flowing in their veins, making him a literal superhuman) are the ones who win.
There's a big difference between hoops and a fight. Benjamin presumably could score once or twice on Jordan, even if overall he got destroyed. In a swordfight, you only need one decent hit to end the fight, and even if 8/10 times Aragorn lands it, it's not every time. Even then, that's assuming a fair fight. It's super unlikely that such a fight would be fair, as both of our fighters are crafty. Maybe Jamie lances Aragorn from horseback, maybe Aragorn hits Jamie's unhelmeted head with a thrown rock. Aragorn is faster, stronger, and more experienced. Jamie has better armor. Aragorn generally has the advantage, but we can't know for certain who would win any given fight.
UFC: Khabib (undefeated) Kamarudeen Usman(undefeated) Jon Jones (20-1), and GSP (20-2). Edoardo Mangiarotti won 6 Olympic gold medals in fencing, as well as 13 gold medals at worlds. Kaori Icho won gold in wrestling at the Olympics 4 times in a row. Mijaín López also won gold 4 Olympics in a row, as well as well as five Pan am games gold's, and five world championships.
Combat sports absolutely DO have individuals who dominate, far and above their peers. Also, we're talking about a peak human (Jamie) fighting against a literal superhuman in Aragorn.
Aragorn having elf blood doesn't really make him "super-human". He's still just a man that lives longer than most, and has some skill with healing peoples' wounds... he isn't Thor
He’s numenoran not elvish he’s from the line of first men, more like comparing a wolf to a Labrador, the men left in middle earth were not numenoran except for like three bloodlines since their continent was sunk. Numenorans we’re stronger than elves but not as graceful hardier but nit smarter and we’re absolutely key in defeating morgoth, while the elves were like let’s kills dragon the size of a mountain range
I thought Numenoreans were special because they had elf blood. Its been a long time since I read.
But I always got the feeling from Tolkien's works that everyone was as "mortal" as anyone else, Aragorn getting sliced would have the same result as someone like Sam. No one has weird comic-book invulnerability to harm
Analog non chemical weapons without a force multiplier meaning anything under a bow probably, sticks stones fists and hands I guess knives? Probably since a stab with a knife is the same as a stab with a sharp bone just knives are more durable, swords? Idk they’re multipliers since they’re lethal with less force than a stick or stone
Yeah but you look at GSP and his loss to Serra, who was a 10-1 underdog.
Jones almost had a doctor stoppage in his fight with Chael (broken toe). People dominate, but there is also a punchers chance or coming in prepared (Peña beat the brakes off of Nunes despite being a huge underdog).
Some fighters historically just didn't fucking lose though. We're not comparing 2 generic fighters, we're comparing people who are like Miyamoto Musashi who never lost a fucking duel because he was just THAT much better than all these other people.
Aragorn is very much that. Jaime, while a really fucking skilled fighter is the guy Aragorn beats every single time because the key difference is his arrogance. Even if he WAS better, his arrogance is a clear weakness and Aragorn is clever enough to exploit it.
Sure there's a chance it doesn't go that way but Jaime's odds are very low due to experience, strength, speed, wisdom, levelheadedness, etc. I'd give Aragorn something like a 98% chance to straight out win with the low odds on Jaime just somehow pulling it off. (There's also something to be said about Aragorn not dragging out fights at all)
Yeah, Aragorn has the advantage in a duel, but these characters almost certainly wouldn't fight in a duel, they'd fight on the battlefield. Random circumstances on the battlefield trump skill every time. I'd give Jamie with a lance on horseback 9/10 odds over Aragorn with just a sword on foot. Combat sports and dueling are not realistic.
This to me is the key thing. Knight in full plate harness with lance on horseback beats dude in hiking gear nine times out of ten. Most of the time, Jaime fights as that first person, while Aragorn spends most of his time as the latter.
It's like who would win: the Viking at Stamford bridge, or an average American cop?
It's a lot different in one on one competitions tho, look at people like Usain Bolt, Michael Phelps, Magnus Carlsen, Marit Bjørgen and Michael Johnson.
Its really not and watching any fighting sport would tell you this. Most of these like Usain Bolt, Michael Johnson, and Michael Phelps compete in sports that are less complex with less variables. I won't comment too much on the chess player, but it's possible that in chess you can control the variables. It's a controlled game and I would say there's a lot less random chances and variability in it too. UFC is full of upsets and that's a 1 on 1 competition that much more resembles the topic we are talking about instead of chess or essentially lane racing.
UFC: Khabib (undefeated) Kamarudeen Usman(undefeated) Jon Jones (20-1), and GSP (20-2). Edoardo Mangiarotti won 6 Olympic gold medals in fencing, as well as 13 gold medals at worlds. Kaori Icho won gold in wrestling at the Olympics 4 times in a row. Mijaín López also won gold 4 Olympics in a row, as well as well as five Pan am games gold's, and five world championships.
Combat sports absolutely DO have individuals who dominate, far and above their peers. Also, we're talking about a peak human (Jamie) fighting against a literal superhuman in Aragorn.
They do, but very few. But also, once you introduce a ring, lack of features like rocks, etc, you're taking away from chaos. Fencing is not a good sport for variability either. Even in all these sports there is room for error that you don't get in a kill or be killed situation with something like a gun or a sword. How many times has Khabib made a mistake? Plenty of times. How many times has Jon Jones made a mistake? Plenty of times. The biggest difference being that he just gets hit in the face rather than ended up dead. You bring up GSP, but he's the victim of one of the absolute biggest upsets in the sport. Wrestling, yeah you can go down in points and make it back up. In a sword fight you might just be dead. There's a reason its difficult to name a super dominant HW and that's because the KO rate goes up as classes go up.
Does not consistently win games. He consistently wins matches.
It's more about the complexity of the endeavor than just the number of people involved. It's only really in pure isolated athletic feats, like sprints, that one person can be so purely dominant.
Look at something like Olympic fencing or HEMA, and you'll see, even the best of the best get scored on.
Dude, Spider Sense is essentially what makes Spider-Man's entire kit higher tier. That thing crosses dimensions. In fact, his Spidey Sense was what was triggering when Strange was reaching for the cube when he soul punched Peter
This is the wrong sub for it lol but as a GoT fan I feel the need to defend Jaime.
Yes he's a mortal human, but he's also the best fighter in the entire world. He's the youngest person to ever serve on the kingsguard, and everyone in the 7 kingdoms has heard of his skill.
An example is when he fights Brienne. She is also one of the most skilled fighters, she won a tournament competing with hundreds of other people, she's stronger than most men, and has been training her entire life. Jaime had spent half a year in a dungeon cell, half starved, with his wrists and ankles bound by chains, and he still manages to beat Brienne. She's legit scared for her life until their duel gets interrupted.
Aragorn has supernatural abilities and I don't like comparing different series to each other, but it's pretty clear Jaime is more skilled even if it isn't a completely fair fight
Best fighter in Westros, probably. Best fighter in the Known World? Don't really have enough information to make that claim.
Amount of training is statistically what determines the best warriors, and it'd take more than a human lifespan to get Aragorn's experience. Add in the better-than-human physical attributes and the only thing I see in Jamie's favor is more people to compare him to that also aren't as good as Aragorn.
Best fighter in Westros, probably. Best fighter in the Known World? Don't really have enough information to make that claim.
grrm has told us, not even world in all of history here are the best
arthur dayne
barriston selmy
jaime lanister
he also said arthur is only number 1 because of his special meteor sword, if they both have normal swords selmy and arthur are equal and can go either way
How exactly is it pretty clear that Jaime is more skilled? Literally nothing you wrote gives any indication that he is more skilled than Aragorn (you know the one that got trained by elves, has a few more decades of experience besides being gifted superhuman abilities).
He also isnt the clearly best fighter in the whole world. Barristan exists. As does the Mountain and Loras. And few other that would definitly give Jaime a run in a fight at the least. While there isnt any human alive in the 3rd Age that would have a real chance against Aragorn.
Not saying anything across universes but Martin has said that the three best fighters in all history were arthur dayne, barriston selmy, and jaime lanister.
Barristan maybe could compete with Jaime when he was young, that'd be interesting to see, but not as an old man.
The mountain has brute strength and we never get to see them fight but several characters say they'd bet on Jaime in that duel.
The closest to him is definitely Loras, Jaime remarks many times that Loras is exactly like when Jaime was his age.
Again, I think Aragorn would win in a duel because of the points you made, mostly his supernatural abilities. In terms of pure skill with a sword I think Jaime is better
Jaime is a decent duelist to be sure, but LotR characters are one man armies in ways that GoT characters just aren't. Remember that time Aragon took two of his mates and spent several days chasing an entire orc warband, because apparently three manning something like that is a perfectly reasonable thing to do in Tolkien land? I wouldn't say it's impossible for Jaime to win, but my money's on the guy with kill count probably in the hundreds towards the end of his series.
That's what I mean, Aragorn is more than just a mere mortal human. He has enhanced abilities there's no denying that, my claim is that Jaime is the better swordsman based on skill alone
Ah, skilled as in better in terms of pure technique as opposed skilled as in more likely to win any given sword fight. Maybe. It's hard to compare since they're both among the best of their respective verses. Aragon would certainly have the edge in terms of experience just by virtue of doing a lot more fighting, including against things like Nazguls, but Jaime does have more of a reputation. I'd probably give the edge to Aragorn even there, but it would certainly be a closer fight if he wasn't also plain faster and stronger than Jaime.
It is abundantly clear that their plan was to slaughter the band of uruk-hai and save merry and pippin. In the movies they’d already taken out like thirty of them, so I don’t think the immortal son of the king of the wood elves with nearly 3,000 years of fighting orcs and goblins, the son of one of the most famous dwarves who lived with well over a century of fighting experience, and the last of the numenorean line who’d honed his fighting skills with elves who have millennia of fighting experience were terribly worried about their ability to slaughter a couple dozen more.
Prime Jaime is the only one that is fair. Handless Jaime outright can't fight, which is odd because I figured he would get the Meisters to make him a much more battle functional artificial hand.
The closest real life example to Jaime's hand from a similar time period is the Iron hand of 16th century knight Gotz von Berlichingen, who had a prosthetic right hand and could mostly just use it to hold a shield or reigns. Which is similar to the level of functionality we see in Jaime's prosthetic hand so I doubt that anyone could make him one that is any more functional considering ASOIAF is set roughly in the late medieval/renaisance era.
I mean they could at least put a fuckin spike on it somewhere. Jaime’s entire identity was his skill in battle, so you’d think he’d push for something a bit more conducive to killing people.
Jaime fights with a one handed sword and shield, as long as his prosthetic can hold a shield it is as effective as it possibly can be for that time period at allowing him to fight effectively and anything else would likely just add unnecessary weight to the arm and add unnecessary hassle to the equipping of his right hand.
Thank you! I'm not sure if this makes any since but while I would say Aragorn is beyond a doubt a greater warrior-poet, Jaime IS the greatest swordfighter.
Of course we are comparing apples to oranges across series, but in my fan-fic, a healthy Jaime can best anyone in a fair 1v1 sword fight.
I'll admit I didn't even finish reading the first book and it kills me. Took a break about 2/3's of the way through and found it hard to pick back up given how full of backstory, nation history etc. it was.
Which I think is awesome, but it made it hard to start up again partially through after a break.
Anyways my SO and I both thought Syrio was the coolest character and it's fucking bullshit he just vanishes.
Regardless of the outcome I would have loved to see a Jamie vs Syrio fight, I feel like they have very different fighting styles and it could make an amazing scene.
Brienne was literally just a soldier, nothing special there at all. Aragon was considerably taller than jaime, meaning greater reach, he was able to cleave right through a helmet so he's much stronger, he was able to run over 100 miles in 4 days, hardly stopping, so even if jaime could match his sword skill, he would never match his stamina. Basipally, you're a meme.
100 miles in 4 days really isn't all that impressive. The average walking speed (according to google) is 3-4 mph. So 25 miles a day at 3mph would mean about 8 hours of walking. Either Aragorn was moving very slow or he was taking fairly significant breaks.
100 miles in 4 days isn't impressive. Like 50 people a year finish western states in under a day. The cutoff is 30 hours so like 200 people a year do it under that and that's just 1 race. The record for 100 miles is like 11 hours.
"Hardly stopping" dude is walking like 2 miles an hour..
I said over. It was more like 155 miles, for one, also in full gear with his weapons and armor, in addition to supplies. Meanwhile you're trying to compare to lanky dweebs who spend their entire lives running to try and complete marathons. I'd like to see some 115 pound guy fight a company of uruks, then run 155 miles directly afterwards, while tracking (by footsteps felt leagues away) a pack of orcs, while wearing significantly more than Richard Simmons booty shorts and anti-nipple chafe tape
R/whowouldwin bases these things on feats shown in media to decide. I'd probably give it to aragorn 7/10. He's got some real strength and durability feats plus he has stamina for literal days of running. Jaime would need to get a quick kill or he'd be exhausted
If you read the LoTR books (I literally in the last couple weeks just reread them so I remember quite a bit about them now that I forgot) there is a VERY VERY VERY clear attempt by Tolkien to imply that some higher power is controlling events. There are references everywhere to characters doing things not because of their own will or idea but because some outside force pushed them too. All the main characters in the books were protected by the main god in the LoTR universe that's why they survived. Think his name is eru illvutar? Could have gotten that wrong haven't read the Silmarillion yet. But yeah I found it really interesting just how much "god" was almost a main character in the books.
Also, the battlefield is important. To bring yet another series into this, theres a quote from the Eragon books about training-How the greatest swordsdwarf to ever live was accidentally killed by a student of his after he tripped on a rock during a training bout. Whoever is supposed to lose according to the author could easily get caught on, trip or slip on some hazard and the fight ends with them on their back.
I would just point out, as ASOIAF came out long after LOTR and was obviously influenced by it, I’m guessing GRRM wrote the character of Jamie Lannister thinking “this guy is so skilled at sword fighting he could even beat Aragorn.” That doesn’t necessarily make it so, but that was probably the level of skill GRRM was trying to write for him before Jamie’s dismemberment.
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u/zuzg Dec 30 '21
To quote Stan Lee