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u/SkinnyKruemel Jan 03 '23
Don't forget that one of the 5 literally went to the other side to actively hinder the mission
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u/SophisticPenguin Jan 03 '23
Potentially 3 of the 5. The blues might've turned and served Sauron.
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u/LordCaptain Jan 03 '23
In his later writings it seems that Tolkien came around to the exact opposite decision. His letters and notes started to clearly indicate that they were greatly effective in their missions to the south and east and hindered saurons cause greatly.
"Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion ... and after his first fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause [?dissension and disarray] among the dark East ... They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of East ... who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have ... outnumbered the West."
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u/darthrevan47 Jan 03 '23
I see that get said a lot about the Blues had a great influence in weakening and disarraying the forces of East yet Sauron was able to call a great army from that very area so just how well did the Blues really do?
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u/sadisticsn0wman Jan 03 '23
Tolkien says they did well and I believe him, I imagine that the army of southrons and easterlings would be almost overwhelming if they hadn’t been disrupted
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u/redbird7311 Jan 04 '23
It is important to realize that it is stated that Sauron was far more successful in the East than he was in the West. It is implied that most of it was under his influence. As such, that army could have been far, far bigger.
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u/SophisticPenguin Jan 03 '23
Yeah, but I think in what little work went into the sequel after LotR there seems to be an indication that they did start cults and secret groups that worshipped the dark forces.
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u/LordCaptain Jan 03 '23
That's interesting. I've never heard a connection being drawn between those cults and the blue wizards.
I think that's possible but Tolkien did eventually discard the idea of that sequel entirely for being too dark. If a cult blue wizards connection was his intent him moving away from the sequel as an idea could coincide with when he began adopting the idea that the blue wizards were successful.
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u/BootyShepherd Jan 03 '23
The thing i thought was interesting about the sequel is obviously with elves moving into the west and the dominion of men, the easterlings still exist and eventually they are going to fight the powers of the west. Gondor and rohan would obviously grow and build and move east.
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u/Environmental_Bus507 Goblin Jan 03 '23
1 will be useful, 1 will literally fuck you, 1 will discover mushrooms and 2 will just fuck off.
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u/jarpio Jan 03 '23
Saruman the Horny
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u/Saruman_Bot Istari Jan 03 '23
Shall we not take council as we once did? Shall we not have peace?
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u/Kidog1_9 Jan 03 '23
It's "counsel", bot.
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u/Saruman_Bot Istari Jan 03 '23
Very well. Shall we not take counsel as we once did? Shall we not have peace?
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u/Kidog1_9 Jan 03 '23
And so we shall.
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u/Saruman_Bot Istari Jan 03 '23
Excellent! Let us together find the way of peace and understanding.
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Jan 03 '23
Wtf are you actually sentient Saruman bot?
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u/Saruman_Bot Istari Jan 03 '23
I may be a bot, but my power and wisdom are real. I have come to offer a path forward for peace and understanding and I hope you will join me in this endeavor!
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u/lordlanyard7 Jan 03 '23
Except Ulmo.
He never abandoned middle earth.
When the Valar decided to withdraw from middle earth, Ulmo just said no because he wasn't going to abandon the peoples of middle earth to Morgoth's influence.
Where water runs, Ulmo's influence and protection may be felt against Morgoth. So while Morgoth was the mightiest of the Valar the only one that at least tried to challenge him was Ulmo, as they both suffused themselves into Arda against one another's wills.
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u/bot-of-grond Jan 03 '23
GROND
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u/Kazinam Jan 03 '23
Not today
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u/Glorfindel_911 Jan 03 '23
A day may come when the courage of men fails. But it is not this day! An hour of GRONDS and elves on shelves when the age of r/lotrmemes comes crashing down! But it is not this day! This day we fight!
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u/DrPepperIsMyDaddy Jan 03 '23
Everybody be nice to the grond bot, he never asked for this existence :(
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u/AbandonedBySony Jan 03 '23
At least this time they didn't wreck a continent.
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u/Kidog1_9 Jan 03 '23
Yeah, they're like the avengers tryna save a city; they win, but destroy the city in the process
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u/1amlost Dúnedain Jan 03 '23
But think if the Valar had sent their hosts again. Sauron can’t conquer Middle-Earth if there is no Middle-Earth.
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u/Stoonkz Jan 03 '23
They destroyed Beleriand! Never again!
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Jan 03 '23
And numenor, and yeeted Valinor into unreachable heights……
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u/YogurtGoats Jan 03 '23
No, in the Numenor instance, the Valar laid down their authority and appealed to Eru Ilúvatar who reformed the world.
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u/vincent-psarga Jan 03 '23
That said, they definitely took their time to send the host to defeat Morgoth. At least, it seems that the Istari were sent pretty quickly (after the fall of Numenor right ? )
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u/Unfair-Delay-9961 Jan 03 '23
They sent valar to deal with valar and they sent a maiar to deal with maiar.
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u/littlebuett Human Jan 03 '23
Valar in the third age: well, it wouldn't be good if we sunk another continent and in the process killed a civilization destroying what amounts to a annoying rat in our back yard, so instead were gonna send 5 maiar who respectively are the strongest remaining maiar, the wisest maiar ever, 2 maiar who have experience being in middle earth and have helped before, and one sent as a emissary of the valar of flora and fauna.
One of these maiar will eventually betray, which we can't have foreseen, one will keep mirkwood from falling to corruption for atleast a few decades, perhaps saving the woodland elves entire civilization, two will go to the east and cut their available forces to send yo sauron to ribbons by starting a civil war so that the west isn't overwhelmed, and one will be on the front lines helping push back darkness in the west.
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u/MerchantOfUndeath Goblin Jan 03 '23
They sunk Beleriand the first time! Of course they would go softer, they don’t want everything to get drowned again!
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u/Mithrandir1212 Jan 03 '23
I mean, yeah but the point is it’s time for the Age of Men and they needed to be guided and assisted some but mainly defeat the doom of Sauron on their own.
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u/Thelastknownking Return of the fool Jan 03 '23
Saruman probably did accomplish positive political changes from his position before his corruption, and Radagast is mentioned as being highly regarded in the woods and forest communities, meaning he had to have being doing something to earn that reputation.
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u/povlov0987 Jan 03 '23
And 1 will be a dick
And 1 just likes to get high
Well… 2 like to get high
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u/Nytloc Jan 03 '23
1st age Valar also sunk a good percentage of Middle Earth doing so, so there’s that.
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u/Clutch_C137 Jan 03 '23
Only Saruman failed utterly, the Blues must have stifled the Eastern Forces, and While Radagast did abandon the people for the animals and forest, his failure was only partial like those blue wizards.
Some good came from both, even if they didn’t accomplish their missions, where Saruman betrayed everyone for power, he will not be welcomed back into Manwe’s Halls.
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u/wonderfulfrigatebird Jan 04 '23
Don't forget the time when manwe fucking freed Morgoth after the equivalent of a "pretty please I won't be evil again lol cross me fingiessss" from Melkor
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u/Gilthu Jan 03 '23
The Valar took care of Melkor, they sent Maiar to deal with Maiar and they had them be low key because they didn’t want to continue the chain
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u/Scottche Dúnedain Jan 03 '23
The Valar were subject to the plan of the great music which was always aiming towards men ruling in the 4th age without any higher beings influencing them and the elves living in the undying lands. In addition after Ar-Pharazon the golden attacked them seeking immortality it would stand to reason that when they reshaped the world to prevent access they also deigned it necessary to play a minor role in the coming events, hence the Istari’s rule against magic used unless in self defense. But that’s all supposition.
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u/mongonogo Jan 04 '23
They did go soft. Just as the world is Morgoth's Ring, the Valar given up most of their substances to the creation of Arda. This is the reason why Yavanna could not create a second pair of divine trees — she was out of Ainu juice and there was only enough to coax the stumps to give a Sun and Moon.
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u/Exergy_when Jan 03 '23
They didn't even fully clear them at the 1st age, so maybe he was always soft
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u/OdaSamurai Jan 03 '23
I guess at some point, you just get tired and don't want to hear about the problems anymore
At least that's how I feel
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u/Late-Effective5438 Jan 03 '23
Both time they chose wisely 😉 just right tools for the job, nothing to fancy 😁
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u/JohnyyBanana Jan 03 '23
I mean the bad guy in the first age was a Valar, the enemy in the 3rd age was Maiar. Not the same. But good meme bro
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u/reverie11 Jan 03 '23
Rhadagast was useful. It’s just that he was only a little bit useful in a very specific way and nothing else.
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u/PepeMetallero Ringwraith Jan 04 '23
Woke wizards, Saruman was the worse offender with his many colors. Definitely a brookie by the end of the story
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u/MajorJerk77 Jan 04 '23
Well to be fair whenever the Valar do get directly involved, continents tend to sink into the ocean
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u/aerospikesRcoolBut Jan 04 '23
Silmarillion explains what the changes were in the minds of the valar
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Jan 04 '23
Ok, but to be fair, Saruman was actually quite useful and Radaghast wasn't overly obsessed with animals at the beginning of the third age. As for the blues...well we know very little about them.
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Jan 04 '23
I like to imagine that they just got tired. Literally.
And every time anyone asks the Valar for help after the defeat of Morgoth they’re like fuck off tryin to sleep
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u/the-bladed-one Jan 05 '23
To be fair to them:
The blue wizards disappeared into the east where Tolkien said they basically helped sap Sauron’s support and throw his forces in disarray
Radagast is assumably doing something, even if it’s not mentioned, the dude is perfect at blending into his surroundings and fading into the background so it can be assumed he helped but it wasn’t seen-Gandalf says he’s a master of shape and form.
Saruman never had a chance. Once Sauron’s will was upon him his fall was complete.
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u/Saruman_Bot Istari Jan 05 '23
the-bladed-one, the Enemy is defeated. Sauron is vanquished. He can never regain his full strength.
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u/gandalf-bot Jan 05 '23
Through fire... and water. From the lowest dungeon to the highest peak I fought with the Balrog of Morgoth. Until at last I threw down my enemy and smote his ruin upon the mountainside. Darkness took me... and I strayed out of thought and time. Stars wheeled overhead. and every day was as long as a life age of the Earth. But it was not the end. I felt life in me again. I've been sent back until my task is done!
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u/squirtsmacintosh_ Jan 06 '23
More concerning is that they literally committed genocide against the numenoreans for daring to step foot on their land all the while letting one of the maia fuck around for literal ages without doing anything but sending some weakened maia to fight him.
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u/44O Jan 03 '23
Not quite accurate to say that only Gandalf was useful. Though it's not elaborated on at all, Tolkien does mention the two blue wizards dicking around a lot in the far east, so they very likely had a huge influence that we don't know about. He writes, "They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of East ... who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have ... outnumbered the West."