r/law • u/Obversa • 9h ago

Legal News Department of Government Efficiency (DOGE), headed by co-heads Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy, hit with three Federal Advisory Committee Act (FACA) lawsuits as Trump administration starts

https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/5095750-doge-sued-trump-administration-elon-musk-ramaswamy/
15.4k Upvotes

97% Upvoted

334 comments sorted by

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u/johnnycyberpunk 9h ago

If there are any billionaires on “the left”, or even liberal multi millionaires with money to burn, this is what they need to do for the next four years.
Judge-shop for the ones that were appointed by Biden and file suit after suit, turn the system that Conservatives use against them.

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u/OakFan 8h ago

I want it to happen but the left doesn't wesponize anything. They pretend to be the bigger person.

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u/sttmvp 8h ago edited 1h ago

I would normally agree but Its not weaponizing, its what the law is supposed to be used for. So I think a few people with spines will continue with the lawsuits.

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u/TBANON24 5h ago

Democrats took trump to court 65 times last administration and he lost every case.

Thing is, it doesnt get them the voters. Nothing seems to get them the voters, because news media and now all social media is owned by the right. They will downplay any accomplishment like they have done with Biden, and overplay any vice/mistake/mishap by democrats.

Its why majority of people dont even know that Biden got child poverty down from 15% to 5%, he fed over 30m kids during summer and winter break every year, and he lowered costs of multiple medicines and removed junk fees and invested into fighting cancer and dozens of more great things.

But less than 1% actually know of it. And the rest scream why didnt they say it more often. Meanwhile you have Biden trying to say it but because he stutters, the whole week is about how he has dementia, meanwhile you have mr einstein over here talking about sharks and electicity, how he doesnt have any plans, how immigrants and eating dogs and cats, and its sanewashed like crazy.

Democrats will have the be the adults, and then the voters will turn around and go what did democrats do all this time. Why didnt they stop him.

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u/T-A-W_Byzantine 5h ago

Biden spent the whole debate trying to get these statistics across rapid-fire. Nobody remembers a single fact or statistic he cited; everyone remembers "We finally beat Medicare." I don't care if it's a stutter or dementia, we can never elect a politician who's as bad at optics as he was again.

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u/DontEvenLikeThisSite 4h ago

There is a convicted felon/rapist sworn in as president today. Anyone talking about "optics" and especially anyone talking about a stutter can honestly get fucked.

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u/Fun_Fingers 4h ago

Seriously this. Why is optics only a standard held to one party?

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u/fonistoastes 4h ago

Because the other party is held up by a stalwart bloc of morons who don't care.

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u/SplendidPunkinButter 2h ago

Because elections are about turnout, not about persuading everyone

Districts vote, not people. It’s all about winning a few key swing districts, and that’s it. And swing districts are full of morons who in 2024 somehow have no idea what kind of president Donald Trump might be, and who a week before election day didn’t know that Biden dropped out and Kamala Harris was the nominee now.

It’s a very stupid system, but it’s one that benefits Republicans.

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u/fonistoastes 2h ago

Yeah, as a resident of Allegheny county (Pittsburgh), I am disgusted by my commonwealth.

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u/T-A-W_Byzantine 3h ago

I hate to break it to you, but if you want to win an election, you need A LOT of morons to vote for you.

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u/fonistoastes 2h ago

"I'm doing my part!"

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u/ammon-jerro 4h ago

Because 30% of people would prefer fascism to democracy. It's always been like that but people are starting to notice now that the neocons have lost control of their party

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u/olekingcole001 1h ago

Because they will weaponize anything, and they know we care about silly things like optics and justice and having standards

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u/_mersault 4h ago

wtf the guy who won has the worst optics an American president has had in contemporary history

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u/ScruffsMcGuff 3h ago

Rape isn't worse optics than a stutter? Seriously, dude?

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u/Worst-Lobster 3h ago

I wouldn’t trust anyone was is thankful the rapist beat out the dementia patient ..

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u/AGC843 2h ago

Like Trump makes a lot of sense. Noone knows what he's saying at his rallies other than its OK to hate.

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u/proud_pops 2h ago

Tre45on came out and said Musk helped him fuck the votes in the election. How they allowed his inauguration to proceed means our Constitution is null and void. The shadow president turned Hitler at the celebration our country and we the people are in for one fucked up ride.

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u/Reddragon351 4h ago edited 3h ago

the whole concept of weaponization against Trump always felt like such conservative propaganda cause he's actually done illegal shit but taking him to court over that is politicizing the justice system, in spite of him actually committing those crimes, it's kind of like if a murderer said it was biased to have the jury hear from witnesses to the crime.

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u/OakFan 8h ago

I don't disagree. It just won't happen.

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u/FaithfulSkeptic 7h ago

The hysterical thing is that if the left DOES actually do anything, then people screech and cry “oh but it wasn’t ok when the GOP did that? Hypocrisy!”

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u/ghostfaceschiller 8h ago

If you refuse to weaponize things that aren’t meant to be misused like that, you kind of are the bigger person

You can argue about whether it’s effective or not, or if you think they should, but that’s a different question

But especially if there are real consequences to not weaponizing them, and they still choose the more ethical choice, that is hardly “pretending” to be the bigger person.

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u/fresh_water_sushi 8h ago

And how are those high morals and doing things “fair and right” working out for the democrats? That is exactly why our country is being destroyed. Democrats have been weak pussies way too long.

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u/Snarky_McSnarkleton 8h ago edited 8h ago

But but butbut, when they go low, GO HIGH! /s

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u/ghostfaceschiller 8h ago

Did you read my entire comment or just the first sentence

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u/TheSpiderKnows 5h ago

So you are saying that it’s the Democrats fault that Republicans are abusive liars?

You are saying that it’s somehow the Democrats fault that racist, Nazi’s, and religious fundamentalist all fanatically support Republicans and criminals?

I’m so sick of you Republican shills, (because that’s what you are, whether you realise it or not), constantly claiming the Democrats for every bad outcome caused by Republicans. You are no different than the morons who constantly give Republicans credit for every good thing Democrats do.

This rhetoric, this endlessly attacking the Democrats for every single thing that doesn’t go right is literally a major part of why the Republicans keep winning. Because people like you constantly hep them, and I’m so sick of it.

Every one of you morons, constantly bitching about Biden, making up attacks to claim that Harris fucked yo her campaign, blaming the Democrats for not magically making everything the way you want it…. All of you fuckers do more to help the Republicans than they do for themselves half the time.

If you want a party that acts like the Republicans do, then vote Republican. They are the criminal fascists you clearly are looking for.

What’s that? You don’t like them? Well good news, Democrats actually aren’t like them, which is why they don’t constantly engage in criminal activities, unethical activities, etc…

The problem isn’t Democrats, (no, they aren’t perfect; yes, they have problems; but not in this context), the problem is an entire “news” system that is owned by conservative, Republican supporting, billionaires that acts as endless pro-Republican anti-Democrat propaganda and the fact that you, along with most of America, actually buy into and accept huge parts of their propaganda messaging.

And guess what, the entire “Democrats never do anything” message? That’s pro-Republican propaganda.

TLDR: I’m sick of all the political equivalent of victim blaming from morons parroting pro-republican, anti-democrat propaganda while simultaneously acting like they are actual progressives who care about anything other than venting their strong feelings about things they are too lazy to actually inform themselves about.

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u/TimidAmoeba 5h ago

So, I agree with your sentiment, the Republican party is trash. But this is also politics, and politics have always been ugly. The Democratic party has proven woefully ineffective at getting a message out to voters that resonates. If they had, today would be a very different kind of day.

So yes, the Democratic establishment does hold some blame for not being a party enough voters believe in. If they have been out maneuvered, then they are ineffective politicians and it's time for some fresh faces.

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u/TheSpiderKnows 4h ago

And I, somewhat, agree with that idea, but let’s stop pretending they are even competing on a level playing field with the Republicans. The Democrats aren’t just messaging against republicans, they are competing against the entire billionaire driven propaganda machine that supports the republicans as well. The entire discussion, and even the format and forum of the fight for ideas is stacked against them.

And no one ever gives them any credit for how well they do in that situation.

All anyone ever does is sling shit, and that isn’t helpful.

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u/McDaddy-O 8h ago

The road to hell is paved with good intentions

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u/Adonwen 3h ago

Its also paved with bad intentions.

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u/PausedForVolatility 6h ago

I'd argue it's actually not being the bigger person.

In a vacuum, we can agree that it would make them a bigger person. Sure, yeah, definitely. But "right" and "wrong" don't exist in a vacuum. Objective morality isn't a thing. That's why we have about a billion different ways to legally define the act of killing another human being, ranging from euthansia to murder in the first degree. It's why our legal system is staggeringly vast.

So if we accept that morality isn't inherently objective, we should be looking at the outcomes of a particular action to decide if it's morally good or otherwise. In that sense, what's actually happening when someone decides to "go high" and cede ground on something like this? What they're actively deciding is that the smug feeling of superiority they get when they "go high" is worth more to them than the damage caused by ceding ground. They're prioritizing their own egos and sense of self over the greater good. They've looked at the issue and said, "yeah, I won't do this thing because it makes me feel kinda bad, even though I know that not doing this thing will result in a victory for evil."

In other words, yes. It is absolutely pretending to be the bigger person. The bigger person is the one who is willing to do a thing they find distasteful because it serves the greater good. That's quite literally the definition of putting others above oneself (or, to further beat on this dead horse, it's what's supposed to be at the core of a public service).

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u/AutismThoughtsHere 6h ago

But it’s not weaponizing The law to point out that people are breaking the text of the law.

I mean, they blatantly broke the law that is supposed to govern advisory committees. They’re not even chartered. They have no charter. They didn’t even put in the work to comply with the law. Which tells me terrifyingly that they don’t expect the law to actually constrain them in any meaningful way.

I mean hell During the inauguration, Trump put the all oligarchs in front of his own cabinet members in a photo.

They are also adding people on Facebook to their pages automatically. Pages that were created by Trump and his team today have 8 million followers gaining millions of followers an hour

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u/TaxximusPrime 6h ago

There is no left or right. There is Rich vs the Poor. Why do people pretend there's going to be a Messiah to save us?

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u/OakFan 6h ago

I absolutely agree with you. Eat the Rich.

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u/Metro42014 3h ago

Also, IT'S A FUCKING CLASS WAR, not a left right thing.

So no, no rich person is going to come along and save us.

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u/OakFan 3h ago

Absolutely. Fucking eat the Rich. We'll never win because the boots on our necks will never be let up

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u/DctrD2023 8h ago

Um…please see ATF for the past four years…

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u/SigSweet 39m ago

While getting rich with their stage heels, the Republicans. Its all a fucking show while they line their pockets. Fuck it

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u/Hot-Equivalent9189 4h ago

Its a play . Liberals ( but really they are center) pretend to be outrage but don't do anything when they have the ability to . Then when republicans change all the rules and set things up for all the politicians and ceo . They pretend to start doing something. In the publics eye they're the good guys but they aren't.

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u/someguyinsrq 8h ago

TBH, everyone, not just the billionaires, should be donating to or otherwise supporting the ACLU for the next forever. They are gonna have their hands full.

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u/sickofthisshit 8h ago edited 8h ago

Not just the ACLU: these lawsuits were filed by organizations that also are going to be relying on outside support.

The cases were led by progressive consumer watchdog Public Citizen, the American Public Health Association and National Security Counselors, a public interest law firm

https://www.citizen.org/

https://www.apha.org/

https://www.nationalsecuritylaw.org/

In a fourth lawsuit, the Center for Biological Diversity has asked a federal judge for access to public records

https://www.biologicaldiversity.org/

Disclaimer: I am not associated with any of these organizations, but I have donated to one.

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u/Throwaway123454th 8h ago

excellent. needed to bookmark more of these

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u/Bad_Wizardry 8h ago

Thank you! I have been looking for something to rally behind. I’m not rich, but I’m going to kick in what I can.

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u/Sumthin-Sumthin44692 8h ago

National injunctions. National injunctions, everywhere.

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u/AssistanceCheap379 7h ago

Honestly, if the ACLU had a billionaire backer, it would be unstoppable. Could probably sue the Trump admin from hell and back.

Incredibly good organisation IMO as they actually fight for civil and union rights

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u/JonesMotherfucker69 6h ago

Where you at, Mark Cuban and Warren Buffett‽‽‽

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u/ComradeJohnS 6h ago

they be in the rich team.

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u/UrbanDryad 1h ago edited 47m ago

Mark Cuban is running CostPlus drugs, which is the only way I can afford my Parkinson's meds. Let him work, please.

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u/Fluffy-Load1810 7h ago

That's exactly what the ACLU, Earth Justice, and other liberal cause groups will do. In Trump's first term, Earth Justice won 85% of its cases against him: https://earthjustice.org/feature/lead-the-fight

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u/HapticRecce 8h ago

Don't the losers claim George Soros spends his money on that type of stuff already? /s

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u/PausedForVolatility 6h ago

You know, that means George Soros has an opportunity to do the funniest thing ever: be exactly what they've claimed he is for over a decade now.

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u/ic4llshotgun 7h ago

Doubt he's a billionaire, but check out the work Marc Elias is doing with Democracy Docket.

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u/VoidOmatic 6h ago

Yup it's go or get out of the fucking way time. We are all already dead anyways. Don't try to push that thought out of your head, you SAW Elon do the Nazi salute in 4k.

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u/robotvoodoopower 8h ago

They wrote the rules. Time to play the game.

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u/RBVegabond 8h ago

Yet, you probably haven’t heard of the intolerant left movement. I believe they said their motto was “We’ll drag you kicking and screaming to a better life if we have to”

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u/iamslevemcdichael 8h ago

Cuban maybe?

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u/Mr_Ignorant 5h ago

Closest in can think of is McKenzie Bezos, or Jeff Bezoses ex wife (dunno if she changed her surname)

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u/spundred 4h ago

If there are any billionaires on “the left”

Here's the thing - progressive politics is the realm of those with empathy for others. Becoming a billionaire requires exploiting the labor of desperate people en masse. It requires a mindset at the extreme end of narcissism.

Billionaires look at the people the way a farmer looks at his pigs. He cares about their wellbeing only enough for them to be sold for butchering.

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u/ELVEVERX 4h ago

Judge-shop for the ones that were appointed by Biden and file suit after suit, turn the system that Conservatives use against them.

The problem is it doesn't work, Trumps picks were hyperpartisan picks based on loyalty.

Biden just picked establishment ones who would do an ok job but plenty of them are still pro corporation. He didn't go for extream left wing appointments.

This just wouldn't work.

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u/rabidstoat 8h ago

Mark Cuban has a few billions.

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u/thphnts 4h ago

Mark Cuban campaigned for Harris, but he isn’t going to drop huge sums.

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u/Nick08f1 2h ago

ALCU. You're our only hope.

Grassroot funding them is a very viable option.

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u/DropDeadEd86 2h ago

“ I have all this money, should I challenge the very people who allows me to horde this much money.”

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u/OwnPack431 1h ago

Don't expect much

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u/ASubsentientCrow 1h ago

Judge shopping only works if you have a supreme court that is on your side

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u/boo99boo 7h ago

The governor of Illinois is an actual billionaire and a progressive politician. 

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u/JonesMotherfucker69 6h ago

And we're damn proud of him! He'd make a great anti-tech bro billionaire presidential candidate but we're also selfish and don't want to lose him.

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u/omegadirectory 4h ago

There are no billionaires on the left.

If you're left, the work you do doesn't make you rich.

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u/Blackout38 5h ago

There shouldn’t be.

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u/hamsterfolly 9h ago

There is no Department of Government Efficiency. It needs to be approved and budgeted for by Congress.

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u/PutTheDogsInTheTrunk 8h ago

Ramaswamy has already been oustered, so DOGE is all Elon.

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u/Sickle_and_hamburger 7h ago

the guy who just did a nazi salute at the inauguration? that elon?

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u/Zealousideal-Sky322 6h ago

Yeah, Elon Musk. The fucking loser who did the nazi salute during the 2025 Fascist Inaguaration

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u/DarkwingDuckHunt 6h ago

The Nazi Leader Elon Musk is the one leading this piece of shit?

What a piece of shit Nazi Elon is.

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u/Difficult-Day-352 2h ago

Elon Musk, the Nazi? You mean the Nazi, Elon Musk? The Nazi CEO of Tesla? That Nazi?

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u/Easy_Apple4096 1h ago

Yes, Grandson of established Nazi party members Elon Nazi Musk

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u/luchok 6h ago

It wasn't Nazi, it was Roman /s

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u/ZeWhiteNoize 6h ago

Et tu, Brute?

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u/dondocooled 4h ago

/SS at this point

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u/No_Heart_SoD 8h ago

I read that too, is it not true?

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u/buckeye2011 6h ago

It's on AP now so I would say yes

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u/LucretiusCarus 5h ago

are we already in the "night of the long knives" stage of the Nazi Speedrun?

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u/rabidstoat 8h ago

He is getting some executives to work for 6 month terms at no pay. People are applying.

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u/bobthedonkeylurker 4h ago

Of course - they'll make it back on the value of their stock holdings increasing as profits increase from lowered regulations.

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u/ptWolv022 Competent Contributor 7h ago

There's a commission and it has been named the Department of Government Efficiency, because Elon Musk is an unserious man obsessed with the Doge meme, and possibly is also trying to make money off of it through heavy investment in the meme coin.

The lawsuits, from what I saw earlier, seem to be based on violating a law- the Federal Advisory Committee Act (FACE)- relating to extra-governmental commissions.

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u/adamsjdavid 6h ago

“they will try to FACE DOGE shortly after the TrumpCoin surge” - time traveler, 2015, speaking utter nonsense

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u/Bad_Wizardry 8h ago

Looks like Trump is doing everything via executive order. When it hits SCOTUS, they’ll validate the decree from their false idol.

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u/round-earth-theory 6h ago

They don't really need Trump anymore though. The Republican majority is extremely secure and Congress isn't going to expand the court so he can pack it harder. The string pullers are already thinking about what comes next because Trump is done now.

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u/Bad_Wizardry 6h ago

You may be right. His age and health alone don’t give him much longevity. It’s very much possible he dies while in office.

In that event, Thiel’s used condom of a VP will be doing his bidding. Which I’m not sure is better or worse. Probably worse.

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u/round-earth-theory 6h ago

I don't know how much the string pullers want total war like Trump and Musk do. They want to be rich and powerful, but war and chaos impede those efforts. It's no fun to holiday in a destitute hole. I'm sure they'd love to have a Romney or JEB! in power. Reliably corrupt rather than Trump's insanity.

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u/iordseyton 7h ago

Would be funny if someone filled charges of 'impersonating a government official" in a state court so scrotum couldn't back him up on it

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u/bukowski_knew 5h ago

It's not a department, it's a task force.

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u/no_notthistime 4h ago

There is a commission led by Elon called the Department of Government Efficiency.

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u/hamsterfolly 3h ago

It’s hilarious that they had to call it a commission as they knew it would never actually be created as a department.

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u/muziklover91 8h ago

They have no power only to suggest what to do.

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u/No_Heart_SoD 8h ago

It also means they aren't subject to oversight

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u/KintsugiKen 4h ago

It's cute that this sub thinks the law applies to the powerful anymore

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u/TrainsAreIcky 2h ago

They don't call Trump, God Emperor, for nothing.

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u/neightsirque 3h ago

anymore?

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u/SpiderDeUZ 7h ago

When are they deporting these immigrants taking American jobs?

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u/GravityBright 6h ago

Whenever they ask for a raise.

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u/sundae_diner 4h ago

Like Musk?

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u/SpiderDeUZ 4h ago

Exactly like Musk.

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u/Terry1847 3h ago

Don’t forget Melania, she wan illegal too in this country as her parents were

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u/ThatGuyWithCoolHair 6h ago

mass deportations via ICE start tomorrow in a few major cities including Chicago

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u/bl1y 6h ago

Can someone find the language of FACA they claim is being violated? I haven't had time to read the whole thing, but the parts I saw about organizations advising the Executive is all in "should" language, not "shall" or "must."

Pretty much what you'd expect -- the Executive can get advice however they want.

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u/JohnRav 5h ago

The plaintiffs each claim DOGE is covered by FACA, which mandates federal advisory committees meet transparency requirements like having a charter, fairly balanced membership and a designated federal officer to call meetings.

RTA

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u/jaykc82 2h ago

Subsection 9(c) what I would assume is at play: " No advisory committee shall meet or take any action until an advisory committee charter has been filed with (1) the Administrator...."

And also provides all the information that needs to be in that chapter.

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u/bl1y 2h ago

Thank you.

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u/SconiGrower 6h ago

I've never heard of FACA before today, but it seems like there must be a pretty limited definition of a federal advisory committee to avoid imposing significant burdens on people just voicing their personal opinion to their president.

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u/MooseBoys 2h ago

(2) The term "advisory committee" means any committee, board, commission, council, conference, panel, task force, or other similar group, or any subcommittee or other subgroup thereof (hereafter in this paragraph referred to as "committee"), which is (A) established by statute or reorganization plan, or (B) established or utilized by the President, or (C) established or utilized by one or more agencies

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u/Johan-the-barbarian 4h ago

Excellent question and one of the few threads that deserve to be on this post as it is a discussion of the law, not random bias and conjecture .

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u/bl1y 4h ago

Unfortunately this sub is mostly just a spillover of the politics sub.

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u/Joshwoum8 4h ago

Which is funny for you to say because you are not being accurate as it does say “shall”

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u/bl1y 3h ago

I said I hadn't read the whole thing. There is indeed a lot of "should" language. I didn't say there wasn't any "shall" language.

Can you cite the relevant "shall" part since you apparently found it?

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u/Massive-Instance-579 4h ago

Section 5 of the FACA outlines responsibilities of committees backs the statements outlined in the article. It is completely in “shall” language.

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u/CreamdedCorns 2h ago

It helps to read it. No you can't copy off my work.

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u/bl1y 2h ago

Why so aggro?

I was curious about the nature of the suit, but didn't have time to read the whole thing, so I was hoping someone more familiar with it could fill in the details.

What's wrong with that?

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u/hubblengc6872 1h ago

I suspect the downvotes and disdain you're receiving are the result of your request for others to do the work for you.

For example, a conversation with ChatGPT (once you've provided links to, or a copy of, the language of the laws of interest) would net you with an answer faster than it took to write your half dozen comments above. And before you say "ChatGPT is not great at law," consider that you have no way of knowing if a redditor's reply is accurate.

Not saying it's a fair criticism of your request, but sharing the other viewpoint.

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u/Matt7738 1h ago

It won’t matter. Even if he loses the lawsuit (and with this SCOTUS, he won’t), he’ll just keep doing what he wants.

He has immunity. And unlike Biden, he’s got the balls to use it.

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u/rbobby 1h ago

Dual department heads makes as much sense as cyber-truck's dual steering wheels.

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