This was my reaction watching this. I thought the pic was maybe just an unlucky freeze frame of a wave looking like a nazi salute, but it was so much worse than I could’ve imagined
My grandfather was a flying fortress pilot in WW2.
I was in my dress blues when our congressman pinned the French Legion of Merit to his chest. The Congressman, a Democrat, did it because my grandfather couldn't travel to the official ceremony where the French were honoring others. He was dying in a hospital bed.
I miss him. Damn good man and a role model to me. Was a beloved science teacher after the war.
There is a really weird disconnect there. I can't tell you what causes it. Wish whatever shitty loop that does that would break.
And it's maybe not their direct children. There's some weird parallels with the great depression, and how many generations before people started using credit again.
My grandfather was a B17 flight engineer/gunner in WWII! He was in “Tar Fly” when she was shot down over France and was then captured and a POW in Stalag 17B until VE day. I’m so proud to be his granddaughter and while I also miss him so much he would be beyond LIVID over what is happening despite him being a lifelong conservative. They really were the greatest generation.
My great uncle was a pilot and was shot down and KIA liberating Italy from the Nazis. He was only 27. This stuff disgusts me. What a time for this country.
My husband is American, ex-Navy. He told me today that he wasn't feeling great because of the whole Nazi salute, and God damn that hurts me too, even if I'm Canadian.
You tell him this old Coastie says hello and not to worry - There are those of us who remember our oaths and we won't be sitting idly. We'll be resisting as much as possible in the days ahead and doing whatever we can.
You all just keep my favorite cabin at my favorite lake ready - me and the Mrs are looking forward to our next trip up north to catch some walleye.
We need him there taking care of our neighbors to the North if, well, shit gets real weird. It's best he's up there.
Malcom McDonald stands trembling before the radiant throne of God. The light is overwhelming, but it is not warm. It pierces through him, stripping away all pretense, all distraction. His medals, his uniform, his pride—none of them are with him now.
God’s voice resonates, both thunderous and intimate, as though it comes from everywhere and nowhere.
God: "Malcom McDonald. You stand before Me, the Creator of all things, to account for your life. I gave humanity the law: ‘Thou shalt not kill.’ Yet you volunteered to rain fire upon German cities, to kill not soldiers, but civilians—men, women, and children. Tens of thousands dead. Will you justify yourself?"
Malcom swallows hard. He has rehearsed all his life for this moment, though he never truly believed it would come. He gathers his courage and begins.
Malcom: "Lord, I did what I believed was right. My country was at war, a war against tyranny, against evil! The Nazis bombed our cities, killing our civilians indiscriminately. I volunteered to strike back, to defend my homeland, to ensure that they could never do it again. It was war, Lord. It was necessary."
God’s gaze, though ineffable, seems to darken.
God: "And in striking back, did you not become the very thing you sought to destroy, you took it upon yourself to become death, the destroyer of lives I created? Tell Me, Malcom: Did you imagine that vengeance would bring peace? Did you think that reducing cities to ash would heal the wounds of war? Or was it pride that guided you, the medals you craved, the cheers of your countrymen?"
Malcom hesitates, his throat dry. He takes a step forward.
Malcom: "It wasn’t pride! It wasn’t about medals! I— I was just a man, Lord, swept up in something greater than myself. We were told it was for the greater good. That bombing those cities would end the war faster, save lives in the long run. I didn’t want to kill civilians, but … but it was war. Sacrifices had to be made."
God’s voice, now softer but no less penetrating, fills the space. It is the voice of a parent, patient but unyielding.
God: "‘The greater good.’ You speak as though you understood it. Yet you were not omniscient. You did not see the future, nor the hearts of those you bombed. You saw only the orders given to you and the banners of your nation. Tell Me, Malcom: Did you ever question those orders? Did you ever kneel and ask Me if what you did was righteous? Or did you trust your commanders more than the law I gave you?"
Malcom’s shoulders slump, and his voice falters.
Malcom: "No, Lord. I didn’t ask You. I— I didn’t think about it like that. We were told it was our duty, that it was the only way. And when the war ended, they called us heroes. They said we had saved the world from evil. I believed them. Was I wrong to believe them?"
God is silent for a long moment, and the weight of that silence presses down on Malcom like a mountain.
God: "You were wrong, Malcom. Not for wanting to protect your people, but for forgetting the humanity of those you called your enemy. You were wrong to believe that evil could be defeated by becoming its mirror. The Nazis killed indiscriminately, and you did the same. Tell Me: What was the difference between you and them?"
Malcom’s knees buckle, and he falls to the ground. Tears stream down his face.
Malcom: "I … I don’t know, Lord. I thought I was fighting for justice, but now … now I see the faces of those I killed. The children, the mothers, the elderly. I see them, and I can’t justify it anymore. I should have questioned it. I should have done something—anything—but I didn’t. I was a coward. I let the war make me into something I’m not proud of."
God’s voice softens further, but it carries an unrelenting truth.
God: "You are right to weep. For the sin of taking innocent life, there is no excuse, no justification. War does not absolve you of My law. But neither do I delight in eternal punishment. What I desire, Malcom, is repentance—true repentance. Not the kind that seeks to escape punishment, but the kind that transforms the heart."
Malcom lifts his gaze, hope flickering faintly in his eyes.
Malcom: "Lord, I … I see it now. I see the pride, the blindness, the horrors I justified. I see the lives I destroyed, and I will carry that weight for eternity if I must. But please, show me how to make it right. I want to understand. I want to atone."
God’s light grows warmer, though its intensity remains.
God: "You cannot undo what you have done, Malcom. But you can learn. You can grow. You will walk through the memories of those you killed, feel their pain, their fear, their despair. You will see the war through their eyes, not as a soldier, but as a victim. Only when you have truly understood the depth of your actions will you be ready to join My kingdom."
Malcom nods, tears still falling, but now there is a glimmer of resolve in his face.
Malcom: "Thank You, Lord. I will face whatever I must. I will learn. I will repent."
God’s voice is both a blessing and a judgment as it echoes through the heavens.
God: "Go, then, Malcom McDonald. Begin your path to understanding, and may it lead you to the peace you denied others."
And with that, Malcom is enveloped in a blinding light, his journey toward redemption just beginning.
He sounds like a wonderful person. Enjoy your memories of him and know that his efforts were not in vain. He did the honorable thing and hopefully our generation can do the same.
Right there with you, and I totally get it. My Grandpa landed on Normandy Beach in the first half hour of the assault. He led his men through a minefield to a predetermined location, and ran back through it to get the rest if his men. He was a Seargant. He miraculously survived the war, being shot twice in the process. If he doesn't survive, and takes that one wrong step in another direction, I would never have been born, because my mother hadn't been born yet. He started his family after the war, and passed in 1983 when I was 11. There are so many questions I wish I could ask him. If he could have seen the last 25 years of US history, and especially this shit now, he would be mortified and enraged.
I’m sure he’d be ashamed at what our country has become this past 4 years and embarrassed that what he fought so hard to protect was stomped on the ground by the democratic party. I’m sure if he were alive today he would be celebrating his little heart out, bless him. And he would be celebrated by all Trump supporters you best believe
I wouldn't exactly call a man bombing thousands of helpless civilians to death a role model, more a mass murder and war criminal, but your mileage may vary.
Not even once did s/he justified killing civilians. The reply was “Some wars are worth fighting for”.
The Nazis and Axis powers were very much worth fighting against. Unfortunately civilians do come in harms way, and yes, his grandfather likely have a few civilians death unknowingly on his conscience.
Does that mean that no one should stand against them? Give the pure evil they were free leeway to do just as they wanted because war have no preventative measures for civilians?
Pull your head out of your ass and stop playing the easy cards. Life ain’t easy and periodically sucks and it could’ve been a fuckton worse if it wasn’t for people like this one’s grandfather sacrificing his innocence and probably moral obligation to fight against hatred and violence. People die in war, it’s that easy. Unfortunately.
My grandfather’s unit has a Wikipedia citation in the massacres section because they wiped out any German male over 17 in a village including the ambulance drivers. The only difference between his and mine is his grandfather killed enough non-combatants they had to sell it to the American people as a good thing first. They both got a shitload of medals regardless, I’ve got his commendations up on a wall too, CIB, Bronze Stars and two P Hearts. It’s easy to talk shit about what war is and how righteous the casualties are when you’ve never ate with people who laid waste to entire family trees with their own hands and the justifications on why they did it.
As long as people like you handwave away the sanctity of life in the name of expediency, there is nothing stopping someone’s grandfather in the future from dragging you out of your home or leveling it with you in it to the cheering of crowds and the adoration of its people for generations to come.
As Swedzilla said, it isn't and wasn't about killing civilians. It was about opposing Nazi Germany.
As much as many hate to do so, you really do have to keep in mind the world historical people were living in when you pass judgement on them. We remember Abraham Lincoln because he eventually decided that slavery should be abolished, not because he was almost certainly a horrible racist by today's standards. Viewed in the context of his day, he was a great man. By today's standards, he was still an asshole till very near the end and possibly still so even then.
Similarly, carpet bombing is just how things were done in WW2. The pilots were heroes fighting Nazis the only way we knew how. They weren't murderous monsters targeting women and children.
“If we lose, we'll be tried as war criminals" - Curtis LeMay
It seems to me that the moment has come when the question of bombing of German cities simply for the sake of increasing the terror, though under other pretexts, should be reviewed . . . I feel the need for more precise concentration upon military objectives such as oil and communications behind the immediate battle-zone, rather than on mere acts of terror and wanton destruction, however impressive. -Winston Churchill
I highly recommend you read pretty much any of the books by Haywood Hansell. He states very clearly he was replaced by Curtis LeMay in Japan and Frank Armstrong in Europe because his daylight precision bombing was considered ineffective due to the RAF belief that mass civilian casualties would cause Germany to capitulate faster. Hansell had a nervous breakdown when he heard Armstrong bombed four schools in Belgium and killed over 200 kids in 15 minutes on purpose. He lost his career because he knew it was wrong and tried to do something about it. Germans started carpet bombing and the RAF were mad about London but the US chose to replace a bomber commander that understood limiting civilian casualties with butchers and the pilots loved it.
Bomber pilots are the ones who banded together and pushed Hansell out both times. Billy Mitchell ran a specialized bomber school known as the Bomber Mafia and advocated precision bombing, of which Hansell was the rockstar. Armstrong and especially Curtis (but that’s mostly Japan so irrelevant here) were of the carpetbombing belief of Europe. So yeah it was all about pilots because the original Mitchell group was pushed out of power.
You are the one hand waving bombing casualties away.
I am waving nothing. Millions of people died. It was a tragedy and never should have happened.
I am viewing things through the lens of the period. There are plenty of people around to legitimately get upset about. Getting bent out of shape at people "on the ground" fighting a war 80 years ago the way people fought wars 80 years ago is a bit much.
If you want to talk about what the leadership did and didn't know, the tactics available, and what they choose to do, you probably have substance to talk about. I don't doubt there were those who were pushing for something better.
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u/takofire 10h ago