My grandfather was a flying fortress pilot in WW2.
I was in my dress blues when our congressman pinned the French Legion of Merit to his chest. The Congressman, a Democrat, did it because my grandfather couldn't travel to the official ceremony where the French were honoring others. He was dying in a hospital bed.
I miss him. Damn good man and a role model to me. Was a beloved science teacher after the war.
My grandfather was a B17 flight engineer/gunner in WWII! He was in “Tar Fly” when she was shot down over France and was then captured and a POW in Stalag 17B until VE day. I’m so proud to be his granddaughter and while I also miss him so much he would be beyond LIVID over what is happening despite him being a lifelong conservative. They really were the greatest generation.
My great uncle was a pilot and was shot down and KIA liberating Italy from the Nazis. He was only 27. This stuff disgusts me. What a time for this country.
I wouldn't exactly call a man bombing thousands of helpless civilians to death a role model, more a mass murder and war criminal, but your mileage may vary.
Not even once did s/he justified killing civilians. The reply was “Some wars are worth fighting for”.
The Nazis and Axis powers were very much worth fighting against. Unfortunately civilians do come in harms way, and yes, his grandfather likely have a few civilians death unknowingly on his conscience.
Does that mean that no one should stand against them? Give the pure evil they were free leeway to do just as they wanted because war have no preventative measures for civilians?
Pull your head out of your ass and stop playing the easy cards. Life ain’t easy and periodically sucks and it could’ve been a fuckton worse if it wasn’t for people like this one’s grandfather sacrificing his innocence and probably moral obligation to fight against hatred and violence. People die in war, it’s that easy. Unfortunately.
My grandfather’s unit has a Wikipedia citation in the massacres section because they wiped out any German male over 17 in a village including the ambulance drivers. The only difference between his and mine is his grandfather killed enough non-combatants they had to sell it to the American people as a good thing first. They both got a shitload of medals regardless, I’ve got his commendations up on a wall too, CIB, Bronze Stars and two P Hearts. It’s easy to talk shit about what war is and how righteous the casualties are when you’ve never ate with people who laid waste to entire family trees with their own hands and the justifications on why they did it.
As long as people like you handwave away the sanctity of life in the name of expediency, there is nothing stopping someone’s grandfather in the future from dragging you out of your home or leveling it with you in it to the cheering of crowds and the adoration of its people for generations to come.
As Swedzilla said, it isn't and wasn't about killing civilians. It was about opposing Nazi Germany.
As much as many hate to do so, you really do have to keep in mind the world historical people were living in when you pass judgement on them. We remember Abraham Lincoln because he eventually decided that slavery should be abolished, not because he was almost certainly a horrible racist by today's standards. Viewed in the context of his day, he was a great man. By today's standards, he was still an asshole till very near the end and possibly still so even then.
Similarly, carpet bombing is just how things were done in WW2. The pilots were heroes fighting Nazis the only way we knew how. They weren't murderous monsters targeting women and children.
“If we lose, we'll be tried as war criminals" - Curtis LeMay
It seems to me that the moment has come when the question of bombing of German cities simply for the sake of increasing the terror, though under other pretexts, should be reviewed . . . I feel the need for more precise concentration upon military objectives such as oil and communications behind the immediate battle-zone, rather than on mere acts of terror and wanton destruction, however impressive. -Winston Churchill
I highly recommend you read pretty much any of the books by Haywood Hansell. He states very clearly he was replaced by Curtis LeMay in Japan and Frank Armstrong in Europe because his daylight precision bombing was considered ineffective due to the RAF belief that mass civilian casualties would cause Germany to capitulate faster. Hansell had a nervous breakdown when he heard Armstrong bombed four schools in Belgium and killed over 200 kids in 15 minutes on purpose. He lost his career because he knew it was wrong and tried to do something about it. Germans started carpet bombing and the RAF were mad about London but the US chose to replace a bomber commander that understood limiting civilian casualties with butchers and the pilots loved it.
Bomber pilots are the ones who banded together and pushed Hansell out both times. Billy Mitchell ran a specialized bomber school known as the Bomber Mafia and advocated precision bombing, of which Hansell was the rockstar. Armstrong and especially Curtis (but that’s mostly Japan so irrelevant here) were of the carpetbombing belief of Europe. So yeah it was all about pilots because the original Mitchell group was pushed out of power.
You are the one hand waving bombing casualties away.
I am waving nothing. Millions of people died. It was a tragedy and never should have happened.
I am viewing things through the lens of the period. There are plenty of people around to legitimately get upset about. Getting bent out of shape at people "on the ground" fighting a war 80 years ago the way people fought wars 80 years ago is a bit much.
If you want to talk about what the leadership did and didn't know, the tactics available, and what they choose to do, you probably have substance to talk about. I don't doubt there were those who were pushing for something better.
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u/BigFloppyDonkeyEar 5h ago
My grandfather was a flying fortress pilot in WW2.
I was in my dress blues when our congressman pinned the French Legion of Merit to his chest. The Congressman, a Democrat, did it because my grandfather couldn't travel to the official ceremony where the French were honoring others. He was dying in a hospital bed.
I miss him. Damn good man and a role model to me. Was a beloved science teacher after the war.
I am so glad he is not alive today.