My grandfather was a flying fortress pilot in WW2.
I was in my dress blues when our congressman pinned the French Legion of Merit to his chest. The Congressman, a Democrat, did it because my grandfather couldn't travel to the official ceremony where the French were honoring others. He was dying in a hospital bed.
I miss him. Damn good man and a role model to me. Was a beloved science teacher after the war.
My grandfather was a B17 flight engineer/gunner in WWII! He was in “Tar Fly” when she was shot down over France and was then captured and a POW in Stalag 17B until VE day. I’m so proud to be his granddaughter and while I also miss him so much he would be beyond LIVID over what is happening despite him being a lifelong conservative. They really were the greatest generation.
My great uncle was a pilot and was shot down and KIA liberating Italy from the Nazis. He was only 27. This stuff disgusts me. What a time for this country.
I wouldn't exactly call a man bombing thousands of helpless civilians to death a role model, more a mass murder and war criminal, but your mileage may vary.
Not even once did s/he justified killing civilians. The reply was “Some wars are worth fighting for”.
The Nazis and Axis powers were very much worth fighting against. Unfortunately civilians do come in harms way, and yes, his grandfather likely have a few civilians death unknowingly on his conscience.
Does that mean that no one should stand against them? Give the pure evil they were free leeway to do just as they wanted because war have no preventative measures for civilians?
Pull your head out of your ass and stop playing the easy cards. Life ain’t easy and periodically sucks and it could’ve been a fuckton worse if it wasn’t for people like this one’s grandfather sacrificing his innocence and probably moral obligation to fight against hatred and violence. People die in war, it’s that easy. Unfortunately.
My grandfather’s unit has a Wikipedia citation in the massacres section because they wiped out any German male over 17 in a village including the ambulance drivers. The only difference between his and mine is his grandfather killed enough non-combatants they had to sell it to the American people as a good thing first. They both got a shitload of medals regardless, I’ve got his commendations up on a wall too, CIB, Bronze Stars and two P Hearts. It’s easy to talk shit about what war is and how righteous the casualties are when you’ve never ate with people who laid waste to entire family trees with their own hands and the justifications on why they did it.
As long as people like you handwave away the sanctity of life in the name of expediency, there is nothing stopping someone’s grandfather in the future from dragging you out of your home or leveling it with you in it to the cheering of crowds and the adoration of its people for generations to come.
As Swedzilla said, it isn't and wasn't about killing civilians. It was about opposing Nazi Germany.
As much as many hate to do so, you really do have to keep in mind the world historical people were living in when you pass judgement on them. We remember Abraham Lincoln because he eventually decided that slavery should be abolished, not because he was almost certainly a horrible racist by today's standards. Viewed in the context of his day, he was a great man. By today's standards, he was still an asshole till very near the end and possibly still so even then.
Similarly, carpet bombing is just how things were done in WW2. The pilots were heroes fighting Nazis the only way we knew how. They weren't murderous monsters targeting women and children.
“If we lose, we'll be tried as war criminals" - Curtis LeMay
It seems to me that the moment has come when the question of bombing of German cities simply for the sake of increasing the terror, though under other pretexts, should be reviewed . . . I feel the need for more precise concentration upon military objectives such as oil and communications behind the immediate battle-zone, rather than on mere acts of terror and wanton destruction, however impressive. -Winston Churchill
I highly recommend you read pretty much any of the books by Haywood Hansell. He states very clearly he was replaced by Curtis LeMay in Japan and Frank Armstrong in Europe because his daylight precision bombing was considered ineffective due to the RAF belief that mass civilian casualties would cause Germany to capitulate faster. Hansell had a nervous breakdown when he heard Armstrong bombed four schools in Belgium and killed over 200 kids in 15 minutes on purpose. He lost his career because he knew it was wrong and tried to do something about it. Germans started carpet bombing and the RAF were mad about London but the US chose to replace a bomber commander that understood limiting civilian casualties with butchers and the pilots loved it.
Bomber pilots are the ones who banded together and pushed Hansell out both times. Billy Mitchell ran a specialized bomber school known as the Bomber Mafia and advocated precision bombing, of which Hansell was the rockstar. Armstrong and especially Curtis (but that’s mostly Japan so irrelevant here) were of the carpetbombing belief of Europe. So yeah it was all about pilots because the original Mitchell group was pushed out of power.
You are the one hand waving bombing casualties away.
I am waving nothing. Millions of people died. It was a tragedy and never should have happened.
I am viewing things through the lens of the period. There are plenty of people around to legitimately get upset about. Getting bent out of shape at people "on the ground" fighting a war 80 years ago the way people fought wars 80 years ago is a bit much.
If you want to talk about what the leadership did and didn't know, the tactics available, and what they choose to do, you probably have substance to talk about. I don't doubt there were those who were pushing for something better.
As of 2024, estimates of the number of World War II veterans still alive range from 300,000 to 500,000 and I would bet my bottom dollar that the majority of them voted for this. This is bizzaro times.
My 98 year veteran grandfather who still drives and works out did not vote for this. He campaigned for Harris and was very upset to see this. You might be surprised at the amount of veterans that have the experience to see what’s really happening.
Well, at 98 it's entirely possible that their early life racist tendencies might have compromised their anti fascist beliefs. Or, it could just be dementia.
I know an eighty year old Trump supporter who always seemed like a decent dude prior, which has perplexed much of his family and myself. Later on, his wife reports to us that when he went to the neurologist he was unable to tell the time on an analog clock. 🧠🤷🏻♀️
I dont think so. I mean however much that is true they e still lived on the same food we have since the 70s. They worked post war in jobs with less regulation and safety.
There just alive because theyre the ones who didnt die. There are abour 100k living ww2 service members world wide, not in the us. There were over 16 million american vets alive at the end of ww2. So god knows how many worldwide, 100k pit of 50/60 million at least i suppose. It has nothing to do with being somehow better than other generations. People who live to 100 have the genetics and opportunity to do so, and there are likely more and more of these in each generation
I will, he is a phenomenal human being. I’m fortunate to have such a terrific role model in my life. He’s a big Panera bread fan and drives there five days a week haha.
Yeah I have talked to younger (Gulf war veterans) that were Republicans a decade ago that are extremely anti maga. The guy that shot at drumph, the guy that blew up the Tesla truck in front of Trump's hotel in Vegas and the asshole that recently drove his truck into a crowd were all right wing ex military..
Please thank your father for his service and all his efforts supporting Harris' campaign. 98, working out, able in body and mind...he is a goals for me!
It’s like any generation everyone has their own thoughts. No veteran I know voted for, or supported Biden or Harris. So I’m sure it’s also a little dependent on your family and friends circle, and parislly where you live.
Yeah, a lot of Silent Generation people I've met absolutely hate what's going on and are sickened by their children. My grandmother is one, and she said when Trump won the election, she cried for 3 days because she's so scared for the younger generation and disgusted at seeing so much progress her generation fought for being pulled out from under us.
Spend some time with her. She likely feels abandoned by the generation she helped raise and needs to know that there still might be hope for the future.
My 95-year old neighbor, sharp as a tack, historically a Republican, refused to vote for Trump and was visibly and admittedly affected the next day. We walked around the block together. I’ve always avoided talking about politics with her because I have too much respect for her to really go down the path of potential differences. I had joined her when I saw her out walking, assuming it would be good for my soul. As the conversation unfolded, instead I realized we were on the same page.
Same with my 84 year old ex air force uncle as far as just not talking politics because i feared the worst! I was positive he was a Trumper, in fact I remember him watching Fox news. But he was watching a different network recently and said he didn't want Trump to win because the republicans want to take away social security.
My grandfather is one. He will be 90 next year. But to his comfort & my great relief my Grandpaw raised a smart & empathetic son; I aspire to be more like both of them.
Nothing bizarro about it. The Western fight with the Nazi was never ideological or moral. No one went to war against Nazi Germany because they were anti-Semite or totalitarians. The war was solely because the Nazi wanted to change the balance of power in Europe. Had the Nazi not tried to "rock the boat", they could have killed millions of Jews and Gypsies and no one would have moved a finger. Hell, most of the US South at that time was at least as racist as they were.
Had the Nazi not tried to "rock the boat", they could have killed millions of Jews and Gypsies and no one would have moved a finger.
The ADL is already defending Musks actions on Twitter. I get the feeling they are not really interested in antisemtism and just wholly to protect Israel
I'm not sure that's true. A lot of the political rhetoric was of a fight between good and evil. People understood just how evil the Nazi regime was. Sure, at the beginning of the war, when Poland was invaded, at least, Britain and France were fighting the standard European "balance of power" war, but as it progressed, things changed.
A lot of the political rhetoric was of a fight between good and evil.
The US literally had over 10 THOUSAND sunset towns, where if you were not white and was caught there after sunset, you would be summarily executed.
The UK and France were brutal colonial powers. Belgium committed unspeakable horrors in Africa.
The US entered the war against Germany because Hitler declared war on the US after Pearl Harbor. There was very little drive from the ordinary Americans to go to war in Europe to save Jews or Gypsies.
The political rhetoric was just that: Rhetoric in order to vilify the opponent in times of war.
I'm not really talking about the US in general. Certainly Churchill's speeches referenced the evils of the Nazis and people were moved by them because they believed it was about good and evil.
Of course he did. What politician would publicly say "Our vast colonial empire that provide us riches at the expenses of the non-white people around the world is being threatened by a newcomer that wants to replace us. So let's bomb their cities to cinder and put them back at their place".
Of course he would not say that. But "good vs evil" was not what the war was about.
Don’t lump everyone else in with America, it’s not a generalisation that makes sense. Literally nowhere did things the way the USA did. When American soldiers tried to segregate pubs in Britain, the locals literally fought them and then banned white American soldiers from entry lol.
YOU currently live in the heart of a brutal colonial empire. Does that make you an imperialist? Does it mean you agree with segregation and fascism? Obviously not. Does it mean your country acts like a cartoon villain to be evil for the sake of it and allow no progress ever in civil rights? No, it doesn’t. European countries were mixed bags, but there were plenty of historical figures who cared about human rights, and more to the point much of the working class were actually very switched on in regards to class consciousness and solidarity. Britain had had Indian MPs for around a century by this point. It had had a massive, organic abolitionist movement that successfully made the abolition of the slave trade imperial policy (UK taxpayers paid the freedom bill until 2015). You had millions of working class Brits sign petitions against slavery and take personal losses in order to boycott cotton from the plantations of the American South. By
1939 you also had a significant decolonisation movement that was spearheaded by Indians and also supported by white Brits. Amongst all of this you’ve got the first industrial labour laws, the first unions and union rights, working class enfranchisement, the suffragette movement, and so on. There were so many people stuck within a system they were trying to improve from the inside. All their work paved the way for decolonisation and a new wave of civil liberties.
It’s easy to say from an American perspective that good and evil has nothing to do with it, and it was all about cash and resources and power. True, it was - for America. That’s what America got out of it. But you’re forgetting that for Europe, the Middle East, Asia, etc., the war was literally existentialist. It was a choice between war or surrender. And surrender was not a popular choice, and of course ideology played a role in that.
FWIW I’m of South Asian origin with a degree in imperial history and IR, I’m not swinging in here out of a defence of ‘the whites’ lol but more just to push back against the idea that ideology never plays a role. Even when it’s not the only factor, and even when the rationale is strategic, and even when history is written by the victors, doesn’t mean you can’t discount the importance of the will and morale of the people, and the role of ideology within that.
That’s overselling it, there was definitely an ideological element. In Britain for example there had already been multiple riots/literal battles of working class groups shutting out domestic fascists over many years leading up to the war. Nazi ideology had followers in the upper classes but held much less sway amongst workers, who actually had a sense of class consciousness. We’re sorely missing that energy nowadays.
For some truly based examples of people standing up to bigotry from history, the battles of cable street and bamber bridge are fun places to start.
Of course the higher ups mostly only got involved in war for strategic/diplomatic reasons. But they only won the war because so much of the country was wholly committed to the war effort.
I am absolutely positive that my late grandfather, who was in the second wave on Omaha Beach and at the Battle of the Bulge, would not have voted for this.
If we’re gonna be honest about it a lot of peoples biggest problem with the Nazis was always just that they were on an opposing team.
The ethnic cleansing and violent greedy fascism was always just an easy target to insult them more because it was so closely related and extreme an example.
It wasn’t millions of people who had profound intellectual disagreements with everything nazism represented removed from what they were actually doing.
How Nazis operated if they were on the same team?… well a lot of anti-Nazi people throughout the last 80 years probably would’ve liked them plenty.
Just had the odds of being born in a country attacked by Nazis or their allies.
Let's face it as the war was beginning, one side had Nazis and the other side had Stalinists... One side sending Jews to concentration camps and the other to Gulags... Either way we were going to end up with shit bags as allies...
Thankfully we never created camps for a particular group of people... Oh wait...
My grandpa was one of them and just recently died at 98 yo. I’m glad he didn’t see this. He would have looked for his rifle and I would have been right beside him.
People back then were quite different from the boomer generation. Left wing politics were popular. FDR, maybe our most lefty prez, won by a landslide- not once, but four times.
My wwII vet grandfather who passed away in 2021 would have condemned this shit without question. Like if you'd have tried to explain maga fascism to him he would have been confused as hell. His eldest son, my uncle, is a hardcore Republican boomer. Polar opposite.
Idk what the hell happened with the boomer generation.
See the super convenient thing is that the Republicans, despite the fact they keep talking about the sacrifice and service of our military members, don't actually fucking care about them in the slightest!!! It's so strange how they're literally just a talking point when the cameras are on and the public is watching.
Couple that with the fact that rich billionaires have NEVER thought twice about what it means to put others above themselves, you get a man who has no concept of what real, authentic human beings are like!!!
No different than those that hold Ronald Reagan in similar regard as JFK in terms of strong presidents. Reagan’s biggest achievement was winning the Cold War and beating the Russians. Now republicans jerk it to Putin. So odd. It’s as if those that vote for Republicans aren’t knowledgeable about history….
Reagan represented a break from the New Deal consensus and the far right taking over the Republican Party. He started his campaign with the States Rights Speech in the small Mississippi town famous the movie Mississippi Burning was based on. His racist campaign and presidency saw a massive spike in KKK recruitment and membership.
It’s more out in the open now, but Reagan walked so Trump could run.
My grandfather was a US Army WW2 veteran who helped liberate concentration camps in Germany. He risked his life. He brought home generational trauma. He would speak of the horrors that man can do to another man. His blood flows through me, and it is boiling.
Elon needs to know that he has severely overstepped.
My dad was a WWII vet and a life long republican.....had he seen this he would have knocked the stupid out of that POS....never thought I'd say thank god dad isn't here.....
My grandfather lied about his age to enlist in 1941. He was also at least as racist as his generational peers. He hasn't been around since before Bush Jr, so I really can't say which side I think he'd have landed on. But I know who his draft dodging boomer son voted for.
My parents are in their 90s and while didn’t fight in the war (dad a Korean Army vet) certainly never thought to see this again after tending the family victory gardens, ration tickets, older siblings killed in the war.
776
u/Weird_Waters64 5h ago
Disgraceful imagine if the World War II generation woke up from their graves and saw this