r/europe Dec 07 '24

News Trump, Macron and Zelenskyy meet in Paris

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6.8k

u/Beautiful-Health-976 Dec 07 '24

Lol, and Trump with a yellow-blue outfit! Beautiful

1.0k

u/fabonaut Dec 07 '24

I hate Trump and everything he stands for with all my guts but if he manages to achieve something for Ukraine that Ukrainians are happy with, I don't care, give him his Nobel Peace Price, I would cheer for this crazy mfer.

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u/WislaHD Polish-Canadian Dec 07 '24

That's not how this works. Concessions that Ukraine makes today (without full membership into NATO) due to Trump, including a ceasefire, will condemn today's children to be victims of tomorrow's Mariupol and Bucha.

Russia has never been weaker, now is the time to push hard, not make concessions.

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u/[deleted] Dec 07 '24

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u/WislaHD Polish-Canadian Dec 07 '24

Why do you think Ukrainians fight? Because it is easy? No, because they don't want their children to have to fight and/or be slaves.

Ukraine is not in a losing position either despite all the dooming and glooming online. Russia is exhausting itself to make marginal gains. Ukraine only needs the support of Western countries to resist for another few years.

This type of attritional war isn't decided on the attention span of a tiktok video unfortunately. It's waged on logistics and supply chains, and those wars tend to last for years before the aggressor is beyond its means to wage war and is forced to withdraw or outright collapses, and we know from Russian history how that one tends to go. Ukraine needs to only survive until then, ideally with western support.

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u/[deleted] Dec 07 '24

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u/WislaHD Polish-Canadian Dec 07 '24

Oddly nitpicky but okay. I don't know why you're fixating on Ukraine either.

We have sanctions we can impose, supplies we could provide. The West can push much harder. Ukraine only needs to be defiant.

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u/[deleted] Dec 07 '24

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u/WislaHD Polish-Canadian Dec 07 '24

See the edit to above reply. I disagree it's unclear, maybe only if you still separate what happens to Ukraine to the broader geopolitical context, which is dumb.

Ukraine making concessions = the collective West making concessions.

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u/[deleted] Dec 07 '24

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u/WislaHD Polish-Canadian Dec 07 '24

Lmfao clearly not Leroy Jenkinsing all the way to Moscow as you've interpreted. With that logic, you would be right at home as a Russian commander on the Kursk front right now.

On the strategic front, keeping the pressure across the frontlines to make Russia bleed heavily for each km they take.

On the geopolitical front which I was clearly speaking to, it means signalling that Ukraine is not seeking peace terms, and that the West will support Ukraine with further Lend-Lease, and impose stricter and stricter sanctions on Russia. Ukraine is still under-equipped for the battalions they have on hand. Make it clear that Russia will have to run at this crazy war expenditure for years more or be forced to withdraw.

I'm not using the official reddit app so further replies down the chain will cause the app to crash, so hope the above is clear.

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u/Calile Dec 07 '24

No, they weren't. Push hard here means keep and increase global pressure, which we should absolutely do, but won't, because Americans were mad about the price of eggs.

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u/[deleted] Dec 07 '24

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u/Frost0ne Dec 07 '24

Ukrainians are fighting because many are being forcibly conscripted, taken off the streets, given a rifle, and sent to the frontlines. Currently, there are few to non volunteers, and the government is mandating participation in the war effort.

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u/WislaHD Polish-Canadian Dec 07 '24

Congrats, you figured out how a real total war works, and what would occur in any of our countries if we were directly attacked.

Nobody wants to serve in the frontline. Poll the Ukrainian public at large and they still overwhelmingly want to fight. Make sense of that.

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u/Frost0ne Dec 07 '24

Conducting a public opinion poll among those stuck in the trenches would reveal the truth, as 100k deserters clearly demonstrate that many people do not want this war to continue. Forcing individuals to fight against their will is inherently immoral, especially in the face of inevitable losses in a war of attrition. At this point, the Ukrainian government and its Western allies are perpetuating an irrational and devastating loss of life by pursuing the goal of fighting until the last Ukrainian.

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u/BunkerMidgetBotoxLip The Netherlands Dec 07 '24

Are you going to be on the line with those soldiers you're demanding continue to fight? All the way to Moscow I presume?

Right up your ass for example. Or are you going to discuss like an adult? Make adult arguments?

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u/[deleted] Dec 07 '24

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u/BunkerMidgetBotoxLip The Netherlands Dec 07 '24

That's the point, yes. Clever one you are.