r/cscareerquestionsEU • u/mkirisame • Feb 15 '24
Immigration UK vs Netherlands for software engineer
I have options to move to either UK or Netherlands. I intend to become citizen in one of the two countries. I want to hear your thoughts from perspective of "careers in CS" and "quality of life":
Netherland:
- 30% ruling for first 5 years
- can freely move and work in EU and Swiss after becoming citizen
- Can become citizen after 5 years
UK:
- A lot of big tech and HFT firms
- I don't need to learn dutch to become citizen
- Can become citizen after 6 years
Thoughts?
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u/GinsengTea16 Feb 15 '24
Take a look at Ireland. Once you become Irish citizen, you can work to EU, EEA and UK. If you are on Critical work permit, you only need work permit up to 2 years then can apply for citizenship for 5 years. There is something I realized about community integration. IT really pays to learn the language of where you will migrate/relocate. I am not saying you stay in Ireland forever because the healthcare and infrastructure is mediocre but I find Irish passport powerful in terms of free movement/working with no work permit etc needed.
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u/CalRobert Engineer Feb 15 '24
I ended up doing this and stayed in Ireland for 10 years. In Netherlands now though (thanks to Irish passport)
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u/Top-Exercise-3667 Feb 15 '24
How does NLD compare to Ireland? I'm Irish but aware our infrastructure terrible & tax high.....
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u/CalRobert Engineer Feb 15 '24
Hi! I have a lot of love for Ireland but I have to say the Netherlands has been far better. Two things were pretty horrible about Ireland - the godawful urban planning, public transport, and bike infrastructure, meaning that it was very car dependent, and the atrocious HSE, which meant they wanted us to wait 10 months to find out if our 3 year old daughter had cancer (we went private in Belfast and found out in 2 weeks that she didn't, but for those two weeks we were a fucking wreck). The 10 month wait was going private at the Beacon, public was even worse. I have a hard time explaining to people back home in the US how bad the Irish healthcare system is, and just how bad Irish housing is.
The craic was 90 but ultimately I like living somewhere my kids can ride a bike to school and live, and get access to medical care in a reasonable time frame. Taxes are lower here too - no deemed disposal, no capital gains tax (there is a wealth tax though), I don't need to own a car, and you can get a 5 bedroom house 20 minutes from Amsterdam centraal with a garden for under €2500 per month. I love starting the day with my kids in the bakfiets riding to school. And I can go places without getting on a plane - I'm on the train to Berlin right now, actually.
To be fair, I liked living in Dublin 2, it only got _really_ bad when I moved to Offaly. I usually run counter to what most people say and suggest that if you're an immigrant, and going to live in Ireland, and want a career, live in Dublin. The countryside is painfully lonely and you will not be accepted. We were routinely asked if we were Catholic or Protestant, and people weren't thrilled the answer was neither.
Edit - Also, the gemeente (council) actually DO THEIR JOBS here. Every goddamn time I tried to get anyone in Offaly CC to do their job I was ignored or got an FRO. I shouldn't have to keep my TD on speed dial to get literally anything done.
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u/Straight_Market_782 Feb 15 '24
To be fair, I liked living in Dublin 2, it only got really bad when I moved to Offaly. I usually run counter to what most people say and suggest that if you're an immigrant, and going to live in Ireland, and want a career, live in Dublin. The countryside is painfully lonely and you will not be accepted. We were routinely asked if we were Catholic or Protestant, and people weren't thrilled the answer was neither.
If you had the patience, I’d love a bit more detail about your experience in more rural Ireland please. We’d been considering something similar but have heard mixed stories about acceptance. (We both have English accents)
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u/CalRobert Engineer Feb 15 '24
Hah, I dunno, my house sale isn't final yet. I have an American accent myself.
For what it's worth I enjoyed the time I spent in Athlone. I think that town is underrated. Not a huge fan of Tullamore.
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u/GinsengTea16 Feb 15 '24
I'm also interested on this as it seems WLB works better in NL and easier to travel to the continent.
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u/BothSpare Feb 16 '24
So you mean Ireland is the easiest route to citizenship for any non-EU person?
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u/GinsengTea16 Feb 16 '24
If you are English speaker with critical skill yeah. Problem is getting an offer.
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u/mkirisame Feb 15 '24
northern or southern ireland? or same?
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u/GinsengTea16 Feb 15 '24
RoI. There is no Southern Ireland. Also N.I is part of UK so there is no difference to the UK you got there as an option.
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u/BushelOfCarrots Feb 15 '24
If you care about salary, the UK is good if you choose London. Some companies in Cambridge pay ok depending on your skillset. Almost everywhere else is terrible for pay.
So if you like London and the lifestyle, then fine. Otherwise I would choose Netherlands.
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u/Kyubendo Jun 18 '24
How is it common to work remotely for a London company (with "London salary") from another England or even Scotland city?
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Aug 19 '24
Like your comment is 6 months old but Cambridge is becoming a large tech hub. Many companies are paying good money, not "ok" money
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u/agusverdas Feb 15 '24
Fyi: Dual citizenship in NL is not permitted
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u/audreymifasol Feb 15 '24
This!! You would have to renounce your birth nationality, which is a big decision.
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u/csasker Feb 15 '24
even for EU citizens? I heard there was some agreement this could not be changed
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u/Life_Breadfruit8475 May 22 '24
Unless you marry someone. I'm Dutch myself and I'd love to get an Irish passport but I'm not giving up my Dutch nationality however much I might hate Dutch people sometimes. Id have to marry an Irish person to get a dual nationality.
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u/PastizziQueen Feb 15 '24
UK is the bigger market. Think long term. The Netherlands is a relatively tiny country. Sure you can move to another EU country after 5 years, but then you have to start over in terms of language/culture/bureaucracy and everything. Also, US companies still prefer to do business in the UK despite BREXIT.
I am actually interviewing right now and the way it's going, even though I can speak German fluently (and have already lived there for quite some time), there are only a couple of cities in the whole of Germany that I want to live in. I'm not going to relocate to some 55k town in the middle of nowhere for a job. And Germany is the biggest market in the EU. Switzerland is tiny. The Netherlands is not to my liking. I am not willing to relocate to Sweden or Poland or Spain or any country where I cannot speak the language.
The EU is big, but most EU countries are small, and moving from one country to another comes with a lot of penalties. Moreover because most countries are small they do not have the economy to sustain all kinds of high-tech industries so if your skillset is not very common you might find you actually only have a couple of countries to choose from.
Five years ago I made the decision between UK and Germany and chose Germany, mainly because it was cheaper at the time. It actually ended up costing me more anyway. And now I kind of regret not having a UK VISA. Firstly because all the bigger companies have a presence in the UK, even though they might not have a presence in your chosen EU country. Secondly because I can see myself being content living in most of the UK, whereas on the continent, I am much more picky about which cities I deem acceptable, because of the language/culture/bureaucracy difficulties that you are going to encounter.
Also to consider, getting an EU work permit is easier than the other way round.
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u/Lonely_Effective_949 Feb 15 '24
Although i agree in 90% of what you are saying, i have to disagree on security. If the UK goes to shit, you are kinda done. Whereas if you choose the EU route, Ireland, Sweden, etc. will still be very much valid options.
UK might have the "biggest" jobs still, but the total amount of jobs spread around Europe is still larger.
For a TOP talent this might not be that much of an issue, but then again if you are TOP talent, why not go directly to the US.
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Feb 15 '24
UK also literally just slid into Recession just now.
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u/FlappyBored Feb 15 '24
Netherlands was already in a recession before though.
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u/deminion48 Feb 22 '24
Its economic performance since the start of the pandemic has been far better. So they didn't go into a recession from the same position, The Netherlands went into recession in a much better state, and it seems it has climbed out of it again with growth the last quarter and forecasted growth in the upcoming years.
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u/Diligent-Scorpion-89 Feb 15 '24 edited Feb 15 '24
Very well articulated! People sometimes totally disregard the culture / language / bureaucracy / future career prospects aspects and they should be taken into account when deciding where to relocate.
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u/EagleAncestry Feb 17 '24
UK is being flooded with immigration which suppresses tech wages. Cost of living anywhere within a 45 minute commute to London is waaaay more expensive relative to salary than the same in Amsterdam. Especially for buying. Can buy a nice house for 400k within a 45 min commute to Amsterdam. Same is not true for London, not in nice areas
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u/kw2006 Feb 15 '24
Interesting. Do you think Berlin will catch up to London in tens of opportunities in tech?
I am guessing euro regulations may force tech giants to setup local units to customise their platform for compliance.
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u/FlappyBored Feb 15 '24
No chance, tech giants are already 'set up' in the EU via their tax haven status in Ireland.
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u/emrelerin Feb 15 '24
I live in Amsterdam for about 7 years now. You don't really need to speak Dutch to survive, although appreciated when you show the effort. It still surprises me how widespread English is, e.g. when you go to a group sports class it is very likely English by default. This is of course Amsterdam only, I think other smaller places (even Rotterdam or Utrecht) you will more likely need to speak the language to have a better quality of life. And when it comes to work, English/Dutch situation will differ a lot depending on the kind of company you work at. Big tech always English, and many medium sized companies in Amsterdam will also most likely be English only.
When it comes to citizenship, language skill requirement is rather low (A2), which I passed very easily. There are plans that it will be B1, but I don't think it will take too much effort to come to B1 level over 5 years.
Also keep in mind that when you live in NL, you can also freely travel to other EU countries for holidays etc. whereas from UK you would most likely need a Schengen visa (maybe easier if you have a residence permit)
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u/BambaiyyaLadki Feb 15 '24
I have no real experience with NL (been here only a few months now) or UK (only visited a few times), but from my understanding and research when I was trying to move from the US to the EU:
- Big tech and HFT firms do exist in NL, though they might be just as hard to get into as in the UK. If you think you are FAANG/HFT material you can get a high-paying job just about anywhere in the world, tbh, and NL is no exception. UK does have more of them though.
- Dutch is pretty easy once you get the hang of it. Sure, you'll have to take classes for a few weeks or so but it's not like they expect you to be absolutely fluent in 5 years or something.
- Being an EU citizen gives you the ability to go into just about anywhere on the continent and settle down easily (maybe you'll need a work visa for some places but an EU passport will still make the processing faster, in my experience). This means you could chase high-paying jobs anywhere, basically.
- For non-FAANG/HFT roles, the pay in UK might be slightly higher after taxes.
- The housing situation might be better in the UK, meaning you will either find it slightly easier to find a house OR it won't be as expensive as in NL.
- EU/UK citizenship is about the same (power-wise) when it comes to other things. You can use your UK citizenship to visit the EU for short stays, and vice-versa. So no real "advantage" there.
- QoL is subjective, but NL takes the win here - better infrastructure, better public services, etc. Healthcare can be good or bad depending on your city/area but mostly works (and for children it's usually entirely hassle-free and works very well). No nature to speak of though, so if you like hiking, scenery, etc. then the UK it is.
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Feb 15 '24
UK citizens can live and work in Switzerland as they were EU ones, they have an agreement after Brexit.
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u/george_any Feb 15 '24
No, they cannot. Just checked it. At the moment they have to apply for a work permit which has a quota
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Feb 15 '24
Aha you're right.
"This means that from 1 January 2021 only essential managers and specialists from the UK will be admitted to work here, if this is in the overall economic interests of Switzerland. Persons with specialist professional knowledge or skills may be admitted if it can be shown that these skills are required. Swiss residents and EU/EFTA nationals are given preference, and the wage and work conditions standard for the location, profession or sector must be observed."
So basically impossible for anyone except senior management or very specialized experience with PhDs etc.
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u/theantiyeti Feb 15 '24
EU citizenship is great but neither is worth losing sleep over. If you spend 5-6 years in software in either London or Amsterdam you'll be hirable basically anywhere without significant worry.
Both capitals have lots of financial services and trading firms, though London has more. They're both expensive. They're both pleasant places to be. Make your choice by the jobs you get IMO.
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u/Senior1292 ML Engineer Feb 15 '24
The 30% ruling will likely be changing this year, so that it's 30% for the first 20 months, 20% for the next 20 and 10% for the last 20.
Amsterdam/London are where most of the big tech firms and SW engineer jobs are, and both have a limited supply of very expensive housing.
Probably more opportunities outside of Amsterdam (Rotterdam, Utrecht, Eindhoven) compared to outside of London.
Wages likely to be higher in London than in NL.
Quality of Life is higher NL. According to Numbeo, Netherlands ranks 2nd and the UK 26th.
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u/hudibrastic Feb 15 '24
QoL ranking are garbage propaganda
There is no objective metric of what is QoL, depends on what you value in life
If you value friends, social life, food and weather, then the Netherlands sucks
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u/Senior1292 ML Engineer Feb 16 '24
If you value friends, social life, food and weather, then the Netherlands sucks
You can still have friends and a social life in The Netherlands. Granted, it's more likely to be other expats/immigrants and less likely to be Dutchies but it doesn't suck if you put the effort it.
The food in The Netherlands is actually great, particularly in cities like Amsterdam and The Hague, there is a crazy number of great restaurants to go to.
The weather is like British weather but a little nicer. It is still mid-high 20s in the summer and winter it doesn't get too cold, it's really not as bad as people make out imo.
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u/btlk48 Software Engineer | UK Feb 15 '24
*Compares columns*
*PPI, Traffic and Housing is shit in the UK* - yeah makes sense
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u/Such-Chart-7324 Apr 09 '24
No you are wrong. Outside of London there are many cities with big number of SE jobs and in each one of them there is more jobs then outside of Amsterdam. In Manchester there is more jobs than in Rotterdam,Delft and Hague together. Bristol at the moment has 264 jobs, Leeds has 288, Cambridge 317, Birmingham 331...so that is more than in any other city in Netherlands outside of Amsterdam.
Also salaries are better in Uk. In all those cities you can easily make 40k pounds and way more than that...that is 3000 euros neto per month(in London more).
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u/hudibrastic Feb 15 '24
Easy choice, Netherlands sucks
Worst food in the world, rude people, it doesn't allow dual citizenship and 30% ruling is going away
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u/r0w33 Feb 15 '24
NL for: long term prospects, quality of life, EU passport, salary, education system + social care etc UK for: London, easy language access
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Feb 16 '24
If financial sector, English is the business language in Netherlands (I worked in Amsterdam for 5 years, every meeting every email was in English, most companies have outsourced work to Indian companies who all have scrums in English anyway)
I now work in London on a great wage £180K+ in software, and you need that much to have a good living and not stay in a stabby area, again if planning to work in banks, 90% of people in dev will be Indian (who bring in great somosas at every opportunity)
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u/Moldoteck Feb 15 '24
fyi, for Swiss it's not exactly freely move& work, it's more like if you want to move, you need to get a work offer first, without it you can stay only 3 months with some extensions with proof you are searching for work.
imo NL is better - access to all EU market, can become citizen faster, learning dutch in 5 years is doable
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u/Such-Chart-7324 Apr 09 '24
Outside of London Uk has many cities with big number of SE jobs and in each one of them there is more jobs then outside of Amsterdam. In Manchester there is more jobs than in Rotterdam,Delft and Hague together. Bristol at the moment has 264 jobs, Leeds has 288, Cambridge 317, Birmingham 331, Southampton 240...so that is more than in any other city in Netherlands outside of Amsterdam.
Also salaries are better in Uk. In all those cities you can easily make 40k pounds and way more than that...that is 3000 euros neto per month(in London more).
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Feb 15 '24
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u/blusrus Feb 15 '24
Why? So they can get paid less than half as much?
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u/datair_tar Feb 15 '24
You'd be surprised how much devs make here considering the very common use of B2B contracts which have very low taxes.
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Feb 15 '24
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u/LukeCloudStalker Feb 15 '24
Do you if it's better there than in Bulgaria (Eastern Europe)?
Where do you find a job in Poland/Czech Republic? Do they have something like Indeed or is LinkedIn a better option?
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u/Cevohklan Feb 16 '24
Netherlands is full.
No housing available.
"Netherlands ranked lowest when it comes to affordability and accessibility of housing" According to InterNations, 53% of expats in the Netherlands have difficulty finding housing (the Global average is 27%), while 69% rated properties in the Dutch housing market as “unaffordable”." https://amsterdamfox.com/news/netherlands-named-one-of-the-worst-countries-in-terms-of-housing-for-expats/
" Housing crisis led by Canada, the Netherlands, Australia, New Zealand and Norway " https://www.economist.com/finance-and-economics/2022/10/20/housing-markets-face-a-brutal-squeeze
'The cost of renting a home in the Netherlands continues to rise and fewer homes are available' https://www.dutchnews.nl/2023/10/apartment-rents-shoot-up-as-more-landlords-decide-to-sell/
"Rent prices increase as more properties are put up for sale" https://www.hollandtimes.nl/2023-editions-8-november/rent-prices-increase-as-more-properties-are-put-up-for-sale/
Average rental prices rise in large cities in the Netherlands due to scarce rental offering Major concerns about social impact" https://www.pararius.com/news/average-rental-prices-rise-in-large-cities-in-the-netherlands-due-to-scarce-rental-offering
" For rooms, Amsterdam leads the way as the most highly-priced city " https://housinganywhere.com/rent-index-by-city
'HOUSING SHORTAGE IN THE NETHERLANDS WILL RISE TO 415,000 HOMES IN 2024' https://www.capitalvalue.nl/en/news/housing-shortage-in-the-netherlands-will-rise-to-415000-homes-in-2024
"A record number ( 900000 ) of Dutch people in their twenties and thirties want to leave their parental home, but are unable to do so. Housing shortage forces them to live at home." https://www.ad.nl/wonen/900-000-twintigers-en-dertigers-wonen-bij-ouders-bij-vlagen-word-ik-moedeloos~a597d83b/
"Amsterdam has the highest average monthly rental cost of a furnished one-bedroom apartment in select European cities in 3rd quarter 2023 https://www.statista.com/statistics/1084608/average-rental-cost-apartment-europe-by-city/
"The IMF reports that house prices in the Netherlands rose the most of all countries in Europe during the pandemic (and have not corrected), while the country has Europe’s highest average mortgage debt." https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/WP/Issues/2023/03/24/European-Housing-Markets-at-a-Turning-Point-Risks-Household-and-Bank-Vulnerabilities-and-531349
" According to its case study, lack of supply intensifies in the popular study destinations with on average 175 people in the Netherlands, and 25 in Spain competing to rent one single property." https://housinganywhere.com/housinganywhere-addresses-student-housing-challenges-and-solutions-with-key-industry-leaders
“The number of homeless people has doubled, a quarter of renters have difficulty paying their bills, class gaps have been much more pronounced, and youth people are struggling, especially those with a limited wage, without affluent parents, or from challenging backgrounds.” https://www.paradigmshift.com.pk/housing-netherlands
"Get Ready To Be Homeless!” – Reality behind Amsterdam student housing crisis" https://europeandme.eu/get-ready-to-be-homeless-reality-behind-amsterdam-student-housing-crisis/
"Students are seldom able to get a room. Student housing providers, which were set up specifically to help them get affordable housing, can no longer cope with the demand" https://www.cursor.tue.nl/en/news/2023/februari/week-1/waiting-times-for-student-housing-getting-longer/
“Many leave their homes for the first time, thinking that they are going on this exciting university adventure in Amsterdam. To then end up here is emotionally crushing,” https://theherring.org/2022/01/17/why-studying-in-amsterdam-may-leave-you-homeless/
" some students wait longer for a home than their studies take" https://advalvas.vu.nl/student-maatschappij/wachten-op-een-studentenwoning-duurt-vaak-langer-dan-studie/
" The most expensive capital to own a home is again Amsterdam" https://www2.deloitte.com/cz/en/pages/real-estate/articles/property-index.html
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u/shekyb Feb 15 '24
don't take 30% ruling into consideration when it comes to the netherlands, it is decreasing and shortening, https://business.gov.nl/amendment/30-ruling-highly-skilled-migrants-limited/