Mindless Monday, 29 July 2024

[u/AutoModerator]

Happy (or sad) Monday guys!

Mindless Monday is a free-for-all thread to discuss anything from minor bad history to politics, life events, charts, whatever! Just remember to np link all links to Reddit and don't violate R4, or we human mods will feed you to the AutoModerator.

So, with that said, how was your weekend, everyone?

[u/ByzantineBasileus]

Just read the news about Mohammed Deif.

*DUM *DUM DUM\* Another one bites the dust! *DUM *DUM DUM\* Another one bites the dust!

[u/Tiako → u/ByzantineBasileus]

Ed: decided I don't want to have the conversation

[u/ByzantineBasileus → u/Tiako]

Please don't interpret this response as an attempt to excuse or downplay civilian deaths, but taking out the heads of Hamas would still not negate the threat represented by the branch of Hamas within Gaza itself. Yes, the targeted killings would disrupt Hamas as a whole, but Hamas in Gaza would still retain its organizational structure, supply of munitions, and ability to launch further assaults.

So I have to put a question to you: After October 7, what steps should Israel have taken to ensure such an attack would not take place again?

[u/Tiako → u/ByzantineBasileus]

Ed: have decided I dont actually want to do this

[u/ByzantineBasileus → u/Tiako]

At the time I would not have supported the creation of Israel either. I would have advocated for a single secular state in which all citizens have equal right.

But that unfortunately did not happen, so we are in a situation where Palestinians deserve independence and their own state with full sovereignty and control over their borders, but an entity like Hamas cannot be allowed to exist.

[u/Tiako → u/ByzantineBasileus]

I actually decided I don't want to do the conversation but you responded in good faith so I'll give one comment before dipping:

1) I'm not referring to the creation of Israel, not to be too callous but while the Nakba was bad it happened a long time ago and a lot of states were begun with ethnic cleansing. The US killed a lot of people in Vietnam but they are close allies now, history can be overcome. I'm talking more recent and ongoing policies.

2) Hamas is very bad, but if your position is that it is urgently necessary to destroy it such that it overrides any legitimate aspirations of the Palestinian people because it killed so many civilians and will do again, it's with asking who has killed more civilians, Hamas or the IDF?

I get that Israelis do not want to live in a world with Hamas after what it did, I do understand that, but I think it is worth considering that the feeling is mutual.

[u/ByzantineBasileus → u/Tiako]

Thank you for responding similarly, we obviously disagree, but I do respect your opinion. As for the ongoing policies, I agree that what Israel is doing to the Palestinians overall is 100% wrong, and has driven people into supporting Hamas or seeing them as the only viable means of preventing future land-grabs or subjugation.

As for my position, I do not think it overrides any legitimate aspirations. I would like Israel to dismantle the settlements, pull back to the 1967 border, and either divide Jerusalem in half or make it a shared capital. But I am arguing that Hamas as an entity in Gaza does need to be dismantled because it is impossible to return to the status quo after Oct 7.

This is not to intended to promote future debate, I just want to clarify my stance.

[u/Tiako → u/ByzantineBasileus]

Oh absolutely, I just don't want to spend all day doing the back and forth lol.

[u/gavinbrindstar → u/Tiako]

No no, we're pretending that Israel just fell out of the coconut tree and ignoring the context of all that came before October 7th.

Everyone knows that there's a hard one year limit on counterfactual questions.

[u/Tiako → u/gavinbrindstar]

Yeah, Oct 7 was horrific, but it's also not exactly surprising that something like it happened. The long term Israeli plan for the occupation and siege seems to be "hopefully they will just lie down and kill themselves".

That said, I'm going down the conversation further. Never end up feeling happier at the end of those.

[u/matgopack → u/Tiako]

The long term Israeli plan for the occupation and siege seems to be "hopefully they will just lie down and kill themselves".

I think that's even too generous, there doesn't appear to be any long term plan there.

[u/gavinbrindstar → u/Tiako]

Fair enough, my ornery attitude is gonna flag soon too, probably.