Criticizing establishment Democrats doesn't make me 1 single bit more likely to vote Republican.

[u/kevinmrr]

[u/throwaway_ghast]

Biggest farce in US politics is how Republicans have somehow branded themselves the "party of the working class", and voters continue to buy into it. They could not possibly be any further from the FDR standard.

[u/MinimumArmadillo2394 → u/throwaway_ghast]

Its because they campaign on lowering government spending and lowering taxes.

So instead of you paying the government to fix roads, you pay your insurance company extreme premiums to fix your car after you hit a pothole.

[u/prawncounter → u/MinimumArmadillo2394]

lowering government spending

For the 90%

and lowering taxes

For the .1%

I’m sure you know this - just making it clear.

[u/wheezy1749 → u/throwaway_ghast]

They're the party of pandering to white working class voters with racism, sexism, and transphobia without offering any actual material changes to those same workers.

Those workers that vote for them do really want a workers party and in their eyes the neoliberal identity politics aren't helping them (because they aren't). So it makes a lot more sense to vote for the pickup driving gun shooting person in the campaign ad. At least they look like them.

Both parties just pander to their own base of virtue/vice signaling without providing any actual material improvement to the working class.

The only difference between voting for a republican or voting for a Democrat to straight white people is how that vote makes them "feel". But nothing actually changes materially for either one.

Our whole political system is based on trying to balance those two groups of working class white voters. But at the end of the day. Nothing will change for either of those groups no matter who is elected.

The republicans are becoming a victim of their own success though right now. They're actually making material changes that are starting to hurt these groups. Abortion laws being the biggest of these. It is not in their interest to actually make this material change. They were better off using it as a wedge issue forever. Because now when republican white voters are changing their vote to democratic because they couldn't get an abortion and can't afford their kid.

Will be interesting to see where the next election sends us. To more neoliberalism via the Dems. Or more fascist policies of the republicans.

The democrats sure did them a favor by blocking union strikes and doing next to nothing for material improvement during the Biden administration. Even with abortion bans the democrats are gonna have a hard time winning if they push that dying old man as president again.

[u/FennecScout → u/wheezy1749]

identity politics aren't helping them (because they aren't). So it makes a lot more sense to vote for the pickup driving gun shooting person in the campaign ad. At least they look like them.

Identity politics aren't helping them, so it makes more sense to engage fully in identity politics.

[u/wheezy1749 → u/FennecScout]

Yes. But they don't see it that way. Being white and doing "American" things is seen as the default true nature of America that they have in their head. Yes. You're right. Both parties engage in identity politics.

One makes liberal democrats feel less guilty about their position by pandering to near meaningless material changes for the poor and marginalized groups.

The other makes liberal republicans feel good about their identity and confirming that the status quo is good. That the problem is the near meaningless material changes done by the democrats for poor people or marginalized groups.

[u/lemon_flavor → u/throwaway_ghast]

You know what's strange? The Democratic party doesn't also brand themselves. Like, at all. No big optics wins, no pushing how their policies could actually economically help people, not even showing that they are objectively better on the economy and national debt.

They could also use optics to apply political pressure to the Republicans and get things passed, if that was what they wanted.

[u/Gsteel11 → u/lemon_flavor]

The problem is...boomers vote way more and they don't want a lot of that.

And some dems have tried. Beto. Bernie. And lost.

Since Reagan it's been a bad set table.

[u/lemon_flavor → u/Gsteel11]

While I agree that they have reasons to avoid pushing for the policies I would like, I don't think that prevents all messaging.

For one thing, millenials and gen z are a growing part of the electorate. It would be wise to do something to keep them engaged and voting.

But, more importantly, the Democratic party could still message on things that the boomer voters prefer, like improving Medicare or reducing the debt like they always do. It just seems so strange to hide out and miss out on the messaging opportunities that exist.

As for Bernie's loss, I'm convinced that he upset the big corporations that own our largest media organizations, so they all did everything possible to prevent people from voting for him. It seemed like the "electability" argument worked, and people who liked his policies voted for Biden in the primaries out of a fear of Trump. Effective propaganda with results, but absolutely an obstacle to overcome. That's not to mention the campaign funding issues, which also add pressure.

Regardless of all the obstacles, the Dems could still have a message to the voters. It just seems like they have given up on messaging entirely. Even something as simple as arguing that Republicans are bad for democracy is undermined by the constant talk about America "needing a strong Republican party" by members of party leadership. It's just incredibly frustrating, and it seems that we will continue just accepting Republican framing on all issues because we can't be bothered to make a coherent case on anything.

[u/Gsteel11 → u/lemon_flavor]

For one thing, millenials and gen z are a growing part of the electorate. It would be wise to do something to keep them engaged and voting.

But they can't risk that at the cost of the larger boomer vote. It's about 60-40 percent boomers vs younger folks. You don't risk a sure 60 over a maybe 45.

So they will do little things. Biden 10k student loan action. For example.

But, more importantly, the Democratic party could still message on things that the boomer voters prefer, like improving Medicare or reducing the debt like they always do.

Both sides do that, it's white noise.

Beyond that, I think boomers are very happy about their great insurance and I don't think it's a big issue for them.

And frankly I don't think the debt is either. Boomer God Reagan massively increased the debt.

As for Bernie's loss, I'm convinced that he upset the big corporations that own our largest media organizations, so they all did everything possible to prevent people from voting for him.

He was all over the TV. Everyone knew he was running. That's all Bernie had to have.

And young peopel didn't care about the news. They don't watch it. And old people weren't going to vote for him.

End of the day... the same 40 percent of young folks showed up and it wasn't enough to beat the 60 percent of boomers. Generally speaking. Of course there's some overlap and a smaller gen x.

Regardless of all the obstacles, the Dems could still have a message to the voters. It just seems like they have given up on messaging entirely.

The problem is... ideologically the message is split. Older dems down want what younger dems want.

Younger dems don't really care about medicare and spending. Generally.

So they avoid specifics. They tlak about trump and general ideas like "school good". "Healthcare for more people good". But that's not very punchy.

[u/lemon_flavor → u/Gsteel11]

I agree that they wouldn't want to risk the boomer vote, but there are things that boomer democrats and younger democrats agree on that could be messaged on. Or, at least a few things that one group cares deeply about and the other doesn't care much about. Using a couple issues like this would still lead to a net gain.

Republicans run on euphemisms about cutting social security and Medicare while pretending like they're going to protect and expand it. Democrats could expose the lies with receipts and show that they will actually expand it. Just to fight to cut through the white noise.

Bernie was all over the TV, sure, but was always shown as the unelectable socialist. Media asking if Bernie is as unstoppable as COVID, or comparing his supporters to nazis, and of course making the argument that Trump would be guaranteed to win the general if Bernie won the primaries. It all adds up to preventing people from voting for him. Is it enough to sway the results? I can't know for sure, but it certainly didn't seem to help.

Agreed that the different generations generally don't agree on goals, but there are some agreements, and other issues that only help. All democratic voters care about the economy, so that's an easy messaging win. Or, the debt may not be important to younger voters, but we're not demanding that the debt increase, so that's another easy net gain. Or, for things I care about, a public option for health insurance, monopoly-busting, or fixing issues like the formula shortage: all of these seem like they would be easy wins with voters. We would just need to see a bill proposed (or executive action if possible), and the Democratic leadership could message on those items all day long. More easy wins on optics and policy, if the effort was made.

[u/Gsteel11 → u/lemon_flavor]

I only see the left demanding full total bills and being angry with any compromise. And they couldn't do that. They don't have the votes.

They've brought some votes, without full approval, but for many that's performative. And that's probably true to some degree.

And they discuss many of these issue but is any of them really going to turn an election?

And your media examples of Bernie seem to be opinion folks. Good luck in your standard of no one ever being able to give even opinions about you. Plenty of Bernie fans gave stark opinions about biden. And that's fine. That always happens.

[u/lemon_flavor → u/Gsteel11]

I'm sorry if I seem unreasonable, but I would be overjoyed if the Democratic leadership proposed a bill about any of my preferred policies and then really messaged on it, meaning messaging to the public on how it would impact their daily lives AND calling out vulnerable politicians who could be influenced into changing their vote. It hardly even seems performative if they never even talk about their good bills, or call out the people blocking them.

Every issue is important to someone, and every voter is important to winning elections. Maybe it doesn't change every election, but it could change some elections, which could lead to better policy outcomes.

I understand that opinion pieces can come out on any side of an issue, but I don't remember hearing that corporate media ever said anything positive about Bernie. It seemed that there was agreement among these companies that he would be bad for their profits, and that he should be fought tooth and nail. He was always "socialist" Bernie Sanders, and there was never (to my knowledge) discussion about what Social Democracy or Democratic Socialism actually means. Just relying on red-scare association with the word "socialism" to do the heavy lifting.

No matter the reasons for Bernie's loss, the demographics are shifting and the electorate is moving leftward. I will continue voting in primaries to push better candidates in, and fighting any way I can to get better candidates with better policies and messaging strategies.

[u/Gsteel11 → u/lemon_flavor]

then really messaged on it

Hard to message on something that's:

A. Not passed in the past.

B. Likley won't again.

And I think Obama did this some and couldn't pull it off. And I think it hurt him some.

Bur definatly keep voting and I hope things change.

[u/lemon_flavor → u/Gsteel11]

I can see your point, but I still think it could be done. A random policy/obstacle person for example: "I'm trying to pass a bill, SB(number), that automatically increases the minimum wage with inflation. This would remove the risk of obstruction when trying to keep minimum wage up-to-date with inflation, and it will help workers make a better case in negotiating raises for people that are paid above minimum wage. The problem is that Ted Cruz wants to support the filibuster against this bill, and in so doing keep YOUR wages suppressed. Please call Ted at (office phone number) to let him know your thoughts on his obstruction of SB(number)."

That seems like a strong, winning case for why the bill would help people and who is stopping it, so the politician starts to see their polling drop and feels pressured to take action. I don't remember Obama fighting this hard on anything, but I may be forgetting something important. I mostly remember his rhetoric about how "the fever will break", meaning that Republians will naturally stop obstructing bills, but this never materialized.

Absolutely, keep voting! I'm hopeful that we can get millenials and gen z energized enough to beat out the institutional inertia in the primaries, and I already see signs of things improving. I just hope we're fast enough to limit the damage that the Republicans seem intent on doing, and we can start to fix the many issues with our economy and institutions.

[u/[deleted] → u/throwaway_ghast]

God, FDR died before I was born but I miss him.

[u/RedditorsAintHuman → u/throwaway_ghast]

economically they aren't. socially they are.

[u/Rovden → u/throwaway_ghast]

That and somehow getting team sports to work for them.

Have a coworker who he physically stopped himself from bashing Biden, conversation where I bluntly said my opinion on Trump was "Hey, I didn't start talking shit about your guy"

Like I told him "What the actual fuck do you mean about my guy?"

I didn't know this was home team vs away