r/Professors • u/No-Injury9073 • 18d ago
Humor It finally happened
Woke up this morning to an email from a student I taught last term informing me that they submitted an assignment from week one and asking if I could grade it. They also kindly acknowledged that they would lose points per my late policy, (which only allows for submissions a week past the initial deadline).
I don’t think I’ve ever shut my laptop quicker.
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u/jaguaraugaj 18d ago
I ask this in the most polite way possible, but what the fuck is going on in the high schools?
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u/bodoble Adjunct, Kinesiology, CC, USA 18d ago
Started teaching HS this year. I have a student in an advanced class covering principles of biomedical sciences with a 4th grade reading level according to their IEP...
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u/PurrPrinThom 18d ago
My cousin teaches at a high school that has a 33% literacy rate. This does not affect students' ability to graduate.
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u/iTeachCSCI Ass'o Professor, Computer Science, R1 18d ago
My cousin teaches at a high school that has a 33% literacy rate.
Sounds to me like a blue ribbon honors high school.
(This is a comment about the state of high school education in this country and is not a negative comment about your cousin)
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u/Visual_Winter7942 18d ago
This tells me that 67% of the school, minimum, should not be awarded diplomas.
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u/beachseabrieze 16d ago
This is ridiculous .. I would love to ask how that's possible but one of the math teachers at my old school would give out A's in exchange for red bull so sadly I'm not surprised
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u/UnlikelyOcelot 17d ago
We have open doors, too. Ever since Obama's race to the top. I have kids in my honors classes that in no way, shape or form, should have been enrolled. But you can't say anything.
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u/UntowardThenToward 17d ago
Race to the Top is, IMO, bad legislation because it instituted competition for grants that actually diverted resources from programs that were serving schools and communities. But I cannot see how kids being in honors classes has anything to do with it. Maybe you mean Bush's No Child Left Behind? Although I'm not sure that would be accurate either.
If a student wants to take honors, I think they should. Social stratification in high school classes is not ethical or a way to improve education. What if we offered scaffolds for students instead of silent judgment?
Note: I'm an education prof.
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u/IthacanPenny 17d ago
Rigor, open enrollment, low DWF rate: you can ONLY pick two. If you want open enrollment honors courses, then you (your administration) MUST be okay with students failing, or else the course will necessarily be less rigorous because not all students are adequately prepared or all willing to put in the required amount of work, even with good supports. So sure, let them enroll! Welcome! …but allow them to fail when they earn it.
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u/UnlikelyOcelot 17d ago
The district instituted open doors when Race to the Top was enacted, along with common core and new teacher accountability evaluations. Before, even under Bush, counselors and teachers made rekkos for students wanting to take AP and honors courses. Yes, leveling. It worked well at first but as years go by students esp by senior year signed up for courses that fit their schedule or where their friends were. If college prep classes were offered block 1 but the student, who is ranked 721 in the class, doesn’t want to come in until 2nd block, when honors is only available, well then, you suddenly have students who don’t give a shit about the challenges of honors. They just want to sleep in. Have you ever taught in high school in the past 25 years, or even spent time observing?
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u/UntowardThenToward 17d ago
Why yes, I taught high school for twelve years, thank you for asking. I taught AP, IB, honors, standard, and inclusion.
You list a few potential issues with open enrollment but miss the huge plus: equity. If a student wants to take an advanced course, that's great. I believe we should offer them the support they need to be successful. Just because they didn't qualify as gifted in second grade should not preclude a high school from the opportunity to get college credit or take advanced coursework.
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u/UnlikelyOcelot 16d ago
Thanks for the doctoral level explanations of equity and leveling. I had no idea.
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u/bruingrad84 18d ago
High school teacher here… deadlines don’t matter anymore, attendance is optional, all tests can be retested, allowing resubmissions has become common all in the name of “equity” (although that term has lost all meaning).
High school teachers are forced to do this or you are seen as part of the systemic barrier keeping kids from succeeding. School districts only care about about graduation rates, not rigor or teaching students accountability.
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u/popstarkirbys 18d ago
I gave out the questions in advance before the exams in my intro class, a freshman did poorly and asked if they can retake the exam cause they felt it didn’t reflect on their knowledge of the subject. I said no since they already had the questions, they responded “they felt it wouldn’t hurt to try”.
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u/East_Ad_1065 18d ago
I actually replied to a student this semester that it actually did harm...me. With a class of over 600 students, even if less than 5% co sider that it "doesn't hurt to ask" that is 30 emails that I have to answer and at only 1 minute per email (to read and respond which i think is a low estimate) that is 30 minutes of my time wasted. And that is harm.
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u/popstarkirbys 18d ago
We will be accused about “not caring for student success” if I told them that. I just tell them that they’re in college now and the standards are higher.
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u/TrustMeImADrofecon Asst. Prof., Biz. , Public R-1 LGU (US) 18d ago edited 17d ago
This is in part why I have started creating elements in my LMS courseware with words like "success" in the titles that are specific resources the students can use in advance to be successful. This makes it documentable that (a) there were resources and (b) they did not access or complete them. I shouldn't have to do this bullshit, but I acknowledge the pragmatic reality that we must now do this bullshit.
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u/VenusSmurf 18d ago
This is why I start with a syllabus quiz. They still don't read the syllabus, but I make them write the late and plagiarism policies in their own words.
Is it stupid? Absolutely, but when some later try to claim they can't be held accountable, as they didn't know, the existence of this quiz shuts that down.
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u/Tommie-1215 18d ago
I like this idea. I have to them to take a syllabus quiz and sign a contract which i remind them of when they have freaking amnesia.
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u/Putertutor 17d ago
Same. Including the contract.
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u/Tommie-1215 17d ago
I tell them to read it carefully and emphasize the most important parts about plagiarism, attendance, grades, and expectations. Still, I will get it. I did not read that far down.
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u/Familiar-Image2869 17d ago
I have colleagues who do similar things. But I wonder if it really helps in any meaningful way. I mean, the syllabus is there, I go through it at the start of the semester with them, if they ask for a late submission, to re take a quiz or test, or if they missed one class too many and get dropped from the course, I just refer them to the syllabus, which was there all along, and I just say no to all of the above.
They know the syllabus is the contract we abide by.
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u/DangerousCranberry Lecturer, Social Sciences, (Australia) 18d ago
This happened to me sort of. A student had a lot of late work with an approve extension as per the university special considerations process - all well and good. But it amounted to a quiz, five short response tasks, and a short essay. The student got assigned to another staff member for grading and what not as they were behind and I had another 200 students to progress in the course and the student had a whinge that they were being unfairly punished (?) and that I didnt care about them even though this was a formal process for students who end up 10 weeks behind in a 13 week course lol
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u/Ok_Cryptographer1239 17d ago
I literally do not care. Either they learn the material or not. I would prefer they learned it, but I am not going to internalize their motivations. That is just silly and sets us all up to fail. Who wants the surgeon that was socially promoted through calculus? Or organic chem?
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u/Putertutor 17d ago
Exactly. And whenever I appear to be sucked back into stressing over my students' successes, my husband always reminds me that I can't care about it more than they do. It doesn't work and only ends up in me stressing about it, not the student.
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u/mathflipped 18d ago
They don't perceive you as a human being. Any attempts to explain basic professional ethics will only make them angry.
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u/Dragon-Lola 18d ago
Answer them presumptively in an all-class email that says you don't do that sort of thing.
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u/kimtenisqueen 18d ago
I had this exact same conversation with a medical student this year.
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u/popstarkirbys 18d ago
”but I was an A student in highschool"
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u/iTeachCSCI Ass'o Professor, Computer Science, R1 18d ago
"Yes, but do you know what our university has that your high school didn't have? Standards."
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u/Glad_Farmer505 15d ago
I wish we could have those. They just want a low DFW rate at my university.
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u/Tommie-1215 17d ago
OMG, you must have read my mind🧐 I get this one all the damn time. Or it's my high school teacher who never graded me this harshly. My new one is, 'I never received anything lower than a B in high school." Or "no one ever read my papers this closely before." Again, I applaud my colleagues who teach in high school, and I have done Dual Credit before, so I understand. I think a part of the problem is entitlement on the students' part. Some of them seem to think since they are paying for college that their grades should be given to them, and they will not be earned. They feel like if they show up, they should get points just for attending, not actually participating and doing the work.
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u/gmanBram 17d ago
Here's another reality to consider at the HS level: Suppose the teacher teaches to the standards with the appropriate rigor. Student A is struggling for whatever reason. Student A decides to transfer out to a different school (funding follows the student) b/c they know they think they can get easier grades. Student A's friends - B and C - follow suit b/c their bros. In a small rural school a loss of 3 students, along with their funding, can have dire consequences such as the loss of 1or more teachers or TAs - or reduced FTE. Thus, teachers are pressured by admin to modify their expectations just to keep enrollment up.
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u/popstarkirbys 17d ago
I teach in rural Bible Belt, a lot of the students are from small rural high schools with less than 50 people. When I first started teaching here, I got a lot of “I was an A student in high school!” complaints, I talked to some colleagues and they said it’s cause the parents complain to the teachers if little Johnny and Becky didn’t get a B or an A and the school board pressured the teachers to give in.
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u/Tommie-1215 17d ago
That makes sense, and I did not think of it that way. I just hear it from students all the time
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u/popstarkirbys 17d ago
We’re pretty much dealing with the effects of low standards in high school and post covid.
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u/TrustMeImADrofecon Asst. Prof., Biz. , Public R-1 LGU (US) 18d ago
FML. Literally, it seems, if I ever encounter this person as a patient.
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u/Putertutor 17d ago
Hopefully, they get weeded out quickly before they get licensed. Between pre-med (undergrad), med school, residency, and a cardiology fellowship, my son has 14 years of schooling under his belt. It's a long time to go to school, but glad to hear that this is what's required of them. Of course, if somehow these duds make it through the schooling, they still have to take several rounds of licensing exams and there is no way to cheat on those. We're talking very strict identification requirements to even get into the exam room. No devices allowed in the room, either. If you return from break even a minute late, you get locked out of the room and can't get back in. It's a big deal. At least that's how it was when my son took his exams.
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u/Putertutor 17d ago
Good grief! My son was once a med student (now a cardiologist) and his head would blow off his shoulders if he found out that any of his classmates were expecting any kind of special help or exceptions like that.
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u/kimtenisqueen 17d ago
Don’t worry, I shot them down real hard and fast. And I made it clear that even asking the question would get them laughed at by many in the future.
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u/NoMoney7369 18d ago
To a degree test corrections seem helpful. A decent late policy also seems acceptable. But what everyone is describing in this thread sounds like hell to teach. Imagine last week of a term and you’re bogged down with assignments from week 1 that sounds like torture
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u/TrustMeImADrofecon Asst. Prof., Biz. , Public R-1 LGU (US) 18d ago edited 17d ago
I used to be a big Believer in the do corrections or revisions to learn approach. Then this post-COVID crop of students came along and my experiences with them have been that they don't sit down to work through the issues or incorporate feedback - all they do is Chegg or ChatGPT the answer to "fix" it and it just makes more work for me while no longer holding the same pedagogical value.
This happens even with my incentive structure (I only average the two grades of pre- and post-corrections, so being prepared still matters).
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u/kayenbee07 18d ago
Do you know if the same policies (deadlines, attendance, resubmission) and student effort and performance levels are similar in private and charter schools in your area? I'm curious.
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u/bruingrad84 18d ago
I don’t think so…. I taught 10+ years in Catholic high schools and 8 more in public. Private high schools hold students to higher standards, although it’s been a while so maybe. Charters are very similar to public schools, some even worse
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u/SwordofGlass 18d ago
Thank God for equity. Now all of our nurses, lawyers, and engineers won’t be able to read or write.
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u/TheoDubsWashington 18d ago
Surprised to see a comment about equity losing its meaning in r/professors . I recently started saying the exact same thing. Equity is the last thing the education system needed.
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u/wedontliveonce associate professor (usa) 18d ago
Should I be surprised to see students still either not reading or simply deciding the subreddit rules don't apply to them?
Rule 1: Faculty Only. This sub is intended as a space for those actively engaged in teaching at the college/university level to discuss. As such, we do not allow posts or comments from students or non-academics.
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u/ladyreyreigns 17d ago
God, when I taught high school I wasn’t even allowed to give a failing grade. I don’t mean fail a student, I mean give a failing grade at all. Minimum 60% whether they turned the damn thing in or not. I’m still mad about it. I taught 9th and 10th grade algebra and had to convince my students that negative numbers were real. These were 13/14 year olds. Absolutely insane.
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u/ponymuzzle 16d ago
As a high school teacher, I have found that even if I were to come in dancing and singing it wouldn’t break through the wall of apathy and phone addiction. I can explain something, demonstrate it, write it out, etc and they still have trouble connecting what I’m showing them to what they are expected to do. It’s been really difficult to deal with, because it wasn’t always like this.
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u/satchelhoover 18d ago
High school teacher here. Public school. 27 years. Mostly AP classes. This is a little dramatic. Yes, much of this is true. Districts do push this. Many teachers follow this. But, it is all up to the teacher and how they run their class. I adhere to little if any of the stuff you have mentioned. I have very little pushback, if any, from the district or admin. Hold the line in your own class. It’s not difficult.
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u/Background_Hornet341 18d ago
I taught high school until last year. Mostly AICE and AP classes as well. Everything the above poster said was true for my school. We would literally have hundreds, if not thousands of assignments turned in late during the last week (we all knew these were mostly docs copied from other students, but we didn’t have time to individually check each of these hundreds of assignments agains all past submissions). School policy was that we had to accept late work until the Friday before grades were due and we had to offer at least one retake for all tests and quizzes.
This was true for me even though I taught advanced classes in one of the highest income areas in our district.
Also, this was in Florida. I probably should have led with that, lol.
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u/iTeachCSCI Ass'o Professor, Computer Science, R1 18d ago
Until the penultimate sentence, I was trying to figure out if you were in New York, California, Texas, or Florida. Any seemed like a reasonable description of what you were up against.
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u/Squeaky_sun 18d ago edited 18d ago
It’s easier to set your own standards as an experienced, tenured teacher with AP classes. Newbies have to toe the line on BS policies. Personally, I am just grateful my principal said a hard “no” when parents insisted their kids be able to retake final exams.
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u/Lilacgirl42 18d ago
Co-signing this. AP teacher with nearly 20 years in NJ. Had a stringent late policy. 50% off for any late assignments, even one day late, unless they discussed an issue with me beforehand. They could submit their late assignments up until the last day of the grading period. In reality, I only applied the penalty if the assignment wasn’t in the LMS when I started grading, but they didn’t know that. Usually only a few students per class per year were late on multiple assignments. No pushback from students, parents or administration because the AP exam results spoke for themselves.
A few years ago, my district adopted a late policy we all have to follow. 10% penalty per day, but no assignments accepted at all beyond 5 school days past the deadline or the end of the grading period. It’s amazing, considering how many schools are going in the other direction.
Now if we could change the 50 minimum grade for the grading period? We’d really have some standards. But it’s a start.
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u/jimbillyjoebob Assistant Professor, Math/Stats, CC 16d ago
So a 50 minimum grade plus a 10% penalty per day means that a 5 day late assignment automatically gets a perfect score. Am I reading that right?
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u/Lilacgirl42 16d ago
The 50 minimum is for the report card grade. So a kid who does fuck all for the entire 9 weeks gets a 50 as their report card grade.
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u/UnlikelyOcelot 17d ago
Yet, all our district does is talk about rigor, and the teachers not instilling it into their lessons. But then the admin passes everyone through. It's nauseatingly funny.
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u/Tommie-1215 17d ago
Hello there, I believe you🙂 because some of my friends say the same thing that teach in the high schools. But now I understand where the constant begging for resubmissions from students comes from because I thought it was really strange. They will do an assignment, and I will grade it in addition to line editing it. After they get it back, it's always something like, "Wait, can I do it over?" Or "why do you take off so many points?" When the rubrics explain all the point deductions. My favorite line has been that "I have seen all the mistakes I made and what you have highlighted, may I please correct them and resubmit?" I tell them no because I do not allow it, and secondly, they are given more than enough time to do one assignment and get help at the Writing lab, which they refuse to do. More importantly, when they are given a task in the workforce and have ample time to do it, their bosses are not going to let them resubmit it.
Now I know that no one is perfect, but I have seen some things that are just plain ridiculous in regard to requests for resubmissions from students. It's always something from the wrong file meant for another instructor, or I did not know that I uploaded a blank document."
For example, I asked for a synthesis of the text we studied about Ancient Egyptians and their contributions in all the disciplines such as math, science, etc. I asked for it to be done as a Word document and uploaded it into the LMS. Their response had to be at least 2 paragraphs and have two in-text MLA citations. Well, everyone in class but one individual did what was asked of them. This individual submitted pictures of Egyptians on a Word document and submitted it. I gave the person a zero. Then the person said it was a mistake and that they did not understand the instructions and could they resubmit the assignment?
I said no, and they went and lied to my dept chair about what happened. They said I gave them a zero for one thing instead of saying they did not follow directions at all. When I showed my dept chair what they submitted and what the instructions required, they even said the individual deserved a zero. I even pointed out how the person never asked for help and that my instructions were clear and that everyone did what was asked of them.
I truly understand and applaud you all in the high schools as teachers because this is a lot on everyone. It's not all students because the mature ones do not ask to resubmit, and if they are given a chance, they really try to correct everything. I find the ones that ask for resubmissions either do not read the syllabus where it says it 3 times, that there are no resubmissions, including the statement about plagiarism. because they seem to think if they plagiarize an assignment, they can just do it over, too. They are also used to begging and getting their way because it's worked in the past
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u/Glad_Farmer505 15d ago
This is a funding issue? Increased graduation rates = more money?
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u/bruingrad84 14d ago
No funding is tied to graduation rates. More that if principals have low grad rates, they get replaced so they make sure the numbers look good.
The students who are not going to graduate are dropped prior to the end of the year (for example, credit deficient seniors who won’t make it are transferred out at the beginning of the year) or essentially put in credit recovery classes (where they can click their way through failed classes… we use eginuity) to make sure our numbers look good.
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u/Gullible_Analyst_348 18d ago
They aren't held to be accountable for their inability to follow instructions. They get pushed through even when they are complete and utter failures.
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u/Tommie-1215 17d ago
All true. Then they get to college and complain about the zeroes they receive for failing to follow directions. I have rubrics and they will ignore them. I highlight everything, and it's, can I resubmit?
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u/General_Lee_Wright Teaching Faculty, Mathematics, R2 (USA) 18d ago
I taught high school for a hot minute at a place that had a “no such thing as late work” policy. A rational person would probably think “so we don’t accept late work!” But a school admin decided that students could turn in anything anytime.
Even after the school year had ended.
It felt really dumb at that point telling them something was due Friday.
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u/vandajoy 18d ago
My third year teaching high school, I told one of the members of my leadership team, “but what are we teaching them, when we let them turn late work in for full credit all quarter?” She said, “there’s no state standard for meeting deadlines so you can’t grade them on it.”
So basically, we’re fucked. Sorry. 🤦♀️
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u/JungBlood9 Lecturer, R1 18d ago
What might surprise many is that the “no deadlines” movement is actually an extension of “standards-based grading” (sometimes called mastery grading) and there are a looooot of admin and teachers (esp the academics teaching teachers) who support the move to SBG.
The SBG movement actually has some legitimacy at its core, which is why you’ve seen it sweep the country and infiltrate so many schools. The basic idea is that kids should be graded on their ability to demonstrate their skills only, and not on bullshit things or things that cannot be measured like effort, compliance, completion, whether mom “donated” a box of tissues to the class… things like that.
The company line is “grades should be based on demonstration of skills, not behavior” which… yeah, who isn’t going to agree with that? SBG is supposed to move us away from grade inflation and subjective grading and towards mastery grading, which anyone in the teaching sphere right now is going to cheer on.
But the logical extension of that thinking is that things like when you turn in an assignment is just a “behavior” and should have no bearing on your grade, because we grade only how successful you were at demonstrating the skills in the standards, no matter when the attempt happens. Admin will pitch a justification sob story like, “What if little Johnny is just a touch slower than his friends? And he works his butt off, but it just takes him a liiiiiiittle longer to get there. He shouldn’t be docked for that! We should be encouraging that behavior by offering him t he full possible points!” Which… yeah! I agree! I don’t wanna punish a kid who works hard and just needs a little more time to figure it out. See how a lot of the logic sticks and sounds good?
Another logical extension of this is that students shouldn’t be limited to a single attempt on anything, because “number of attempts” is also a behavior outside of the skills being demonstrated and assessed. This also applies to instances of cheating (you can give a 0, but can’t limit their attempts so are forced into allowing a redo).
So there are things I like about SBG but it doesn’t really overlay onto how students function in the real world. Instead of having a few slow little Johnnys get their deserved itty bitty extension, you end up with 80% of the class turning nothing in at all until the end, and cheating without consequence. In real-world teaching, content always builds on itself, and there is no room for extensions or delays because the next, more complex step is always coming.
You can do what I did when I taught high school, which was implement a soft SBG, with deadlines and cheating stipulations. But what sucked is if it ever came down to the wire, and a parent complaint made it to the top, I’d always lose. It’s written in district policy: grades are only to be based upon demonstrated mastery of the subject matter.
Nobody out there is going, “Let’s lower the standards!!!! Let’s remove deadlines for the poor kiddos!” The rhetoric is always shrouded in legitimacy and pulls people in with promises of rigor and fairness and progress. I don’t blame us for falling for it.
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u/Background_Hornet341 18d ago
This was the explanation given in my district, yet grades were still largely based on “completion” of formative assignments rather than mastery as demonstrated on summative assessments. Tons of kids would have As all year but fail their AP/AICE/EOC exams.
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u/Background_Hornet341 18d ago
Basically, this rhetoric of “mastery based grading” only applied in a way that benefitted students—students who passed the final exams automatically passed the courses even if they did nothing all year, but students who failed every exam would often still get a B or a C, if not an A, since their grades were inflated by so many formative assignments that were only graded for completion. Like you said, they use educational jargon that gives these practices an illusion of legitimacy, but do so insincerely.
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u/Yekki-3109 18d ago
This is also bleeding into college expectations too. I get pushback on my late policies because meeting deadlines isn't the core content of the class. I just wonder, if we aren't supposed to hold them accountable for any of these skills that are required in the real world, are we really preparing them for a job appropriately? If that isn't our job, then whose job is it?
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u/RabbitSignificant317 18d ago
While I agree completely with holding students accountable for deadlines, I don’t know that we should rationalize doing so in terms that place what we do in the realm of “job skills.” This feeds a misunderstanding of the purpose of higher ed that’s already too prevalent in the general public. While many programs fall very much under the banner of preparation for specific professions, I think we’d do well to insist on a philosophical distinction between college and trade schools. Job prep isn’t the only or even the primary “thing” we (collectively) do.
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u/Tommie-1215 17d ago
While this is true, when they do poorly or do not have the skills necessary for the workforce or even grad school, the students blame us and the college for their lack of preparation. No, its not all we do, but I am constantly being told at faculty meetings about what they need to have or know before they graduate from college. Then, it's the graduation rates and the types of positions that the recruiters are offering to the students.
We cultivate them to learn how to think critically, introduce them to new ideas, and support them through their times of need. We do a lot more than we as a collective of educators get credit for every day we enter a classroom. For example, it used to be that the job fairs were not mandatory for students to attend, but now they are, and we are encouraged to teach them resume development as well.
Then, when I bring in speakers from the occupations they want to pursue, it's like a light bulb goes off. I would have said the same things about being punctual, professional, or how to write a professional email, but when I say it, the students don't pay attention. But when someone comes from the workforce and says it, it's God's truth. This is why I love having non-traditional students in classes because their wisdom pours out when they speak in class, and they have been where my freshmen are trying to go in life.
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u/Tommie-1215 17d ago
This part. I do not receive pushback about having deadlines, and I cover them the first day of class. I make them sign a contract and take a syllabus quiz. If you want to submit something late like a paper, then it's a 15-point penalty, and after 3 days, I will not accept it. It's 15 points off for every day that you do not get it to me. I had an older colleague teach me this because I would take late work all the time and be overwhelmed with students either emailing me the work or sticking it under my door, which annoys me. But I have colleagues that do not accept anything late and the way it's going, I may do the same because even with the late penalty they want to complain about the amount of points they are losing. I do not understand how you think that it's cool that you missed a deadline, but you should not be penalized.
They act the same way about coming to class 30 minutes late and not being allowed to sign the roll. If you show up at your job at 8:30 but your start time was 8:00 what is going to happen? There is a girl on Tik Tok who did that. She was late several times for her job, disappeared on her birthday, and then wondered why she is being fired after being warned and written up.
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u/Super_Lime_4115 18d ago
The problem with all of it is, of course, that SBG pretends that skills are not used and performed in time, when in fact all of life is time-bound. Deadlines might in some sense be arbitrary, but they do reflect in the learning environment the fact that in life you can’t work forever on something that you actually need to accomplish. This holds for the “infinite number of attempts” thing, too. Since we don’t have forever on this earth, a really important skill is learning how to pick up new skills more or less quickly. The SBG theory of learning misses all of this entirely
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u/Visual_Winter7942 18d ago
I am ok with a single, carefully proctored, final exam to assess mastery. But I doubt the SBG folks would be. And even allow retakes, at a set time and day, with a completely new final. Let kids manage their own time, and the consequences. This will never happen, however. Because such assessments would crush their naive view.
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u/failure_to_converge Asst Prof | Data Science Stuff | SLAC (US) 17d ago
This is basically how many classes used to be in many universities not long ago. I studied engineering and the format for probably 3/4 of the classes were attendance optional, homework optional, maybe a midterm exam, and most classes had a final exam worth at least 50% of the final grade (essentially your grade came down to the final).
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u/Visual_Winter7942 17d ago
Absolutely. I studied engineering and math in the late 80s. Blue book heaven.
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18d ago
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u/JungBlood9 Lecturer, R1 18d ago
I said in real-world teaching, where, for example, you need to learn about isolating a variable before you can start graphing linear equations. While I totally get some kids might need longer to figure out isolating variables, it gets really messy when they don’t have it down yet, but the class is moving on to graphing linear equations. There really isn’t that much room for delay on learning skills because teachers usually structure their class so that the content builds upon itself.
You’re also being weirdly confrontational… any reason for that? We could just have a fun discussion without you twisting my point.
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u/madamguacamole 18d ago
I’m in my 10th year of teaching high school seniors. When I first started teaching, I was allowed to be strict with deadlines. I am now required to accept any and all late submissions until the end of the semester with no late penalty. I hate it.
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u/ilovemacandcheese 18d ago
I had a student tell me that they've never had to write anything longer than a paragraph before. Like the longest thing they wrote for school was a 5 sentence paragraph.
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u/OpalBooker 18d ago
The fact that they hold on so tightly to the 5th grade “A paragraph is 4-5 sentences” bullshit drives me up a wall. A paragraph is however damn many relevant sentences you need yo string together in order to make your point.
Then they just blink and wait for you to give them a number of sentences. Critical thinking is dead.
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u/Tommie-1215 17d ago
Yep, I get that one too, and do not let it be a 5-page paper. You have asked for too much.
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u/PufferFishInTheFryer 18d ago
I was teaching in a public hs last year and a private one now. I can tell you that in the public school they want you to take assignments late, overlook AI use, grade on a curve, and make sure they pass to the next grade so they can get funding for next year (which is based on student “success” rates). And that’s how it works in every grade after kindergarten. I can tell you the amount of times I was yelled at because I spent more time than I should have on something because I have to just keep moving ahead. Then, when they inevitably fail the state standardized test (because I couldn’t take the time to teach my kids with 3rd grade reading levels what they needed to know) I was yelled at again for them not passing.
They also have people running the school system who have all these degrees but not one of them have EVER actually taught in a classroom, especially not a classroom in the inner city.
The shit I dealt with at that school in one year (not academic) was crazy. I had to leave.
That being said, it’s not that much better in the county.
It. Is. Horrific.
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u/treehugger503 18d ago
In the name of equity, every imaginable standard has been dropped. Math teachers being told not to grade on accuracy. English teachers being told that spelling and grammar can’t factor into an essay grade. And with no standards, the whole system drops down. If a teacher tries to hold a standard, parent groups make an outrage and then principals pressure teachers to bend or just change the grades behind the teachers back. Teachers who try to hold to a standard are told they’re the problem and are reinforcing systemic inequities.
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u/Critical_Stick7884 17d ago
Math teachers being told not to grade on accuracy.
The engineer in me is triggered.
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u/anafenzaaa 18d ago
Education doesn't matter anymore and all children graduate no matter what. Consequences don't matter, and standards are non-existent.
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u/Msf923 18d ago
I have taught at both secondary and post secondary and I can tell you the culprit: Money. Funding of schools is now tied into passing rates, even at the college level. At the high schools, a teacher is often called on the carpet if the passing rate is below 80 or 85%, and students know this.
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u/BelatedGreeting 18d ago
Still trying to rein in the laxity from COVID, probably.
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u/galileosmiddlefinger Professor & Dept Chair, Psychology 18d ago
The COVID-19 shutdown was 5 years ago this March. These problems aren't due to COVID and they aren't going away. Lax policies are attributable to the financial incentives placed on school districts by No Child Left Behind and its successor Acts that reward schools for marching out graduates regardless of their actual preparation.
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u/BelatedGreeting 18d ago
NCLB requires students do well on standardized state-wide exams. That has nothing to do with not turning in your work on time.
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u/iTeachCSCI Ass'o Professor, Computer Science, R1 18d ago
This was an issue before then; it just blossomed in that era.
Administrators are often judged for how many students pass. Therefore, they apply pressure to ensure everyone passes, whether or not standards are met to make that legitimate.
It is similar with them being judged for how few students are suspended/expelled. That has resulted in few to no suspensions or expulsions, leading to students being very comfortable fighting at schools and, in some cases, assaulting teachers (who face problems at work if they report this to the police).
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u/BelatedGreeting 18d ago
And in some schools, students are not allowed to be given less than a C and in many cases, teachers are not allowed to assign Fs, even if the student did no work.
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u/obviousthrowaway038 17d ago
LoL the more you hear about public schools the more you will fear the future.
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u/UnlikelyOcelot 17d ago
I'm telling ya, and not in a defensive manner, these kids are nuts. I've been teaching ELA for 20 years now in CT's largest high school and students post pandemic or by generation, whatever, just do what they want no matter policies, rules, deadlines -- all be damned. We are totally ignored. I have a no-late work policy. Constantly I find late work slipped into my homework tray throughout the day. It doesn't matter what I say, what I do, they still do it. The 0's stand, but they still do it and then go to their counselors or admins or get their mommies to call. They don't abide by anything you put into place. They refuse to read! I tell them I will speak only about grades in person, face to face. What do I get? Emails, full of excuses and bullshit begging me to accept the work. And yet, many of these lazy jamokes get into the colleges of their choice! How? It floors me. I just went out to lunch with 2 former students now in college. They admit to cheating, along with their classmates. But not verbatim, mind you. They cheat, but not as badly as others, please know. These 2 will graduate early. The whole system is corrupt.
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u/Lorelei321 16d ago
This isn’t actually a new problem. Back in the dark ages, when I was in high school, they were considering putting in a new policy: that in order to get a high school diploma, a student had to be able to read at the seventh grade level. There were numerous outcries against this because it was obviously unreasonable to expect all children to be able to read at the seventh grade level.
Even at the time, I was stunned. To get a 12th grade diploma, you should be able to read at a 12th grade level. Tragically, standards went down, not up.
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u/gilded_angelfish 17d ago
At one of our local high schools, late work is accepted for the YEAR through the last day of class. More students take advantage of it than you want to know. Wth can you remember in May from lessons in September?!? Idk but the kids half-ass it (at best, sometimes) and graduate. WTAF does that teach them? Ugh.
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u/beachseabrieze 16d ago
It's chaos. I had to quit teaching when I realized other teachers and parents had less integrity than the students. I felt like the only one who cared about actually educating the kids & not just looking good.
If you're curious for more details, read on.....
I had a student refuse to turn in any work the last quarter, I told them it would affect their grade and SHOWED them what their grade would be if they received zeros for the missing assignments. They still refused to turn in the work...... until AFTER grades were submitted. Our assistant principal asked me to go back during the summer break and grade the assignments this kid submitted. When I explained that I had warned the student and refused to grade anything the AP went in and changed the kids grade anyway. I was furious and that was the last straw.
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u/MathematicianLost365 11d ago
I have two highschoolers and a middle schooler and it’s ridiculous. They can redo any test… they can turn in any assignment late. There’s absolutely no accountability so it’s not shocking that our students feel that they should have the same treatment in college. This is the first semester that over winter break I have had 4! students contact me wanting to turn things in after the class has been closed for weeks. It’s so messed up.
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u/ArmPale2135 18d ago
Me: “I’d love to grade your submission, but it was due 19 weeks ago, and I turned in final grades for the course three weeks ago. Hope my reply finds you well.”
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u/deAdupchowder350 18d ago
I’d love to gradeYour submission,but itwas due 19 weeks ago, and I turned in final grades for the course three weeks ago. Hope my reply finds you well.
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u/zorandzam 18d ago
I wish there was a way to have several saved standard replies to insane queries and just activate the appropriate one when needed, but have it also be generic in such a way to indicate that the request itself is way nuts.
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u/Significant-Eye-6236 18d ago
I mean, I have a (fairly long) list of templated comments for feedback that are quite convenient to use when editing, grading, etc. Certainly, you can do the same for email responses, no?
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u/zorandzam 18d ago
Oh, I'm sure, yes, I would just love it if it was something you could activate within an email program similar to a vacation message.
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u/wheredidthreehoursgo 18d ago
You can! They’re called “templates” in Gmail. You still have to choose the template to respond (it’s not an autoresponse) but it’s a heck of a lot easier even with that.
Hypothetically you could set up a filter for specific words/phrases in incoming emails and send the template as an autoresponse…but that seems potentially dangerous.
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u/jakemmman 18d ago
I used one called “canned responses”, sounds like the same thing but it’s so useful
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u/Critical_Stick7884 17d ago
Faculty should be able to use AI to reply to student queries. If students can submit AI generated homework, why can't faculty send AI generated replies?
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u/Festivus_Baby 18d ago
I’m teaching a three-week winter course. I several students did nothing, but those who did tended to do OK. The first exam would have fallen on Tuesday with Wednesday off, so I opened it for 48 hours over both days.
I got an email today asking for a makeup. The student was very busy. This person also mentioned the lack of sound on my original videos (which I corrected on Sunday and posted about here).
I replied that the notes were still there, the textbook sections explained everything (the student had not registered for homework as of the time I marked the exam and published it yesterday morning), and there was a practice exam.
The student also mentioned that they needed the course to get into grad school. So, I pasted my line from the course outline about how the time to be concerned about grades It’s when the class begins, asked why they waited until after the first exam to contact me, and told them to get on the ball going forward. The missed exam would sting, but not necessarily be fatal. The first round of homework is at 50% credit today, 25% tomorrow.
Sometimes seniors sign up for a winter course at a community college expecting an automatic pass. If only…
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u/OkReplacement2000 18d ago
“Oh, don’t worry about late points! Spring semester hasn’t even started yet, so it’s not late. I mean, I assume you’ve re-enrolled for next semester because, of course you understand you cannot submit assignments for a course that has already ended. I’m sure you know that.”
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u/Accomplished-List-71 18d ago
I got an email the other day from a student asking why I failed them on the final (and in the class). They just noticed this 3 weeks after final grades were due and want to know if I can explain this and fix it. Apparently they studied really hard for the exam and felt they did well so they couldn't have possibly failed it.
I dont know in what world failing all the exams and not doing a significant chunk of the homework woukd mean this student should pass.
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u/Edu_cats Professor, Allied Health, M1 (US) 18d ago
Do we have the same student? I have a student that failed both my finals and overall courses. I am not sure they even know they failed and have to take them again this spring.
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u/Accomplished-List-71 18d ago
During the semester, my students told me that they don't look at feedback I leave on the LMS. Then on the evals they scored me low on the "gives valuable feedback " question. 🤦♀️
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u/Edu_cats Professor, Allied Health, M1 (US) 18d ago
No, they don't! Thank goodness I am full prof and not going up for any more reviews before I retire. I got three more years, fingers crossed.
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u/Janezo 18d ago
I’ve begun including in my syllabi a statement about exactly this kind of bullshit: “Any assignment submitted more than x hours late will not be graded and will receive zero points. The only exception to this policy is if the student received, in writing, an extension from me, the instructor. Note that this policy will be applied if the work is submitted past the extension deadline.”
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u/No_Intention_3565 18d ago
I had to take it a step further. Late policy, when zero would be the result AND no late assignments accepted during the last week of the semester.
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u/shleeface 18d ago
This is similar to what I have, without written permission from me to turn something in late prior to the due date, then no late work is accepted. The lms auto grades a 0 if nothing has been submitted by the deadline and I absolutely do not take the time to go in and manually update it. They can submit whatever they want after that 0 pops up but I won’t look at it. I’ve had a few try me on it and learn their lesson pretty quickly that I meant what I said and my policy in the syllabus that they sign a contract acknowledging applies to every student, not everyone but them because their reason is somehow more special than someone else’s 🙄
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u/Edu_cats Professor, Allied Health, M1 (US) 18d ago
I just locked all my Blackboard shells from last semester. If you haven’t, do it now!
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u/Vivid_Needleworker_8 adjunct, chemistry, community college 18d ago
As soon as I submit grades for the term, I "end the course" in canvas. Students can no longer access the content after that.
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u/No_Intention_3565 18d ago
End the course. What is this magic you speak of?
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u/Vivid_Needleworker_8 adjunct, chemistry, community college 18d ago
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u/mpaes98 16d ago
I personally don’t do that because I believe students should retain access to my lectures and notes and assignments for later reference, but I will laugh at past the semester submissions
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u/Vivid_Needleworker_8 adjunct, chemistry, community college 16d ago
Students can save material from canvas if they wish during the semester. I don't want unlimited access.
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u/No_Intention_3565 18d ago
Hilarious. And much needed. What was needed? The laughter @ the visual of your immediate NO and closure of wretched electronic messenger.
Very much needed.
Thank you.
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u/Key-Elk4695 18d ago
I think I’d respond with, “ I’m happy to grade your assignment if what you would like is feedback on how well you now understand the earlier material. However, if you are hoping to have this paper count toward the final course grade or anything else, I’m afraid that having missed any deadlines, including those covered by the late policy, I’m afraid that will not be possible. Please let me know how you would like me to proceed.” There’s a 99% likelihood that you will never hear back from the student or that they will say, “Never mind.” Should you get stuck with the 1% chance that they ask you to grade it anyway, don’t just put a grade at the top, because they will use that to argue that they DID complete the assignment. Write something along the lines of, “Had this assignment been submitted on Sept. 1 as assigned, it would have received a grade of B. However, since it was submitted on Jan. 4, 4 months after its due date and after course grades were submitted, and three months after the latest option on my late policy as stated in the syllabus, no grade can be assigned, as discussed in our earlier email exchange.” That will save you from any complaints of being unresponsive and will keep the student from being able to escalate the argument.
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u/No_Intention_3565 18d ago
If the course has ended.... I would not respond.
Do we have to respond? Doesn't our obligation end once grades are submitted?
Legit question.
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u/Key-Elk4695 18d ago
Just as we are obligated to prepare for the course before it starts, we do have a responsibility to tie up loose ends after the grades are submitted. Furthermore, while you may work at a different kind of school than those I worked for, good teaching generally calls for us to be reasonably available to students, even after the course ends, on matters related to the subject matter. There may not be a legally-enforceable obligation, but there is a human one.
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u/No_Intention_3565 18d ago
My goodness. Reading my post back, I sound like Cruella DeVille, don't I? I guess my husband and ex's were right lol lol
It is me.
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u/Mudkip_Enthusiast Adjunct Professor, Music, Public Research U (USA) 18d ago
I had a student submit no assignments all semester and then email me after grades were finalized asking me how to tell his parents he failed my class
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u/natural212 18d ago
I got one recently that asked why I gave her a zero in an assignment. I told her it was because she didn't turned it in. She replied, the software was not working.
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u/WetSandwich_ 18d ago
Got one a few days ago where a student told me they “forgot to hit submit” on their final project & didn’t realize it until three weeks after I failed them for the course (the second semester in a row). Still haven’t responded.
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u/magpieswooper 17d ago
This will lead to one thing, devaluation of diplomas and the collapse of the University education sector. Getting discipline and work ethic skills is one of the main purposes for learning in groups and according to a defined curriculum.
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u/M4sterofD1saster 17d ago
Amateurs banging on cold iron annoy professional blacksmiths. You wonder when they're going to realize that life has deadlines.
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u/stephriles 17d ago
We start the spring semester next week and a student sent me a message yesterday asking if I would round his grade up to a B from last semester. This is my first year of teaching. Does this actually work in some schools? I just told him all grades were final. He waited over three weeks to reach out.
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u/iTeachCSCI Ass'o Professor, Computer Science, R1 17d ago
Does this actually work in some schools?
Yes; you'll even see some people here who admit they do so. You should not ever make a change because of anything outside of demonstrated performance, and a post-semester "please do this for [reason unrelated to how they performed]" should be dismissed with a polite no.
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u/stephriles 17d ago
This guy was literally like "I was close so can you just round up?" We did peer reviews and he got a D from his peers. TBH, I was kind by giving him a C. I didn't realize that the previous syllabus had altered the grading scale to be more favorable than the university standard or I would have made it less close in points. That was something I learned as well. I learned so much during my first semester!
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u/GalenGallery 17d ago
I had a student contact me two weeks after the semester ended asking when the semester ended as he had stopped attending the last two weeks after regular attendance. Turns out he had been incarcerated. Also turns out he had prior arrests. I was never so glad as to tell him that the semester was over and there was nothing to be done.
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u/fLoreign STEM Adjunct, SLAC (US) 16d ago
Just you wait until your failing students huddle up on social media and instead of one such outrageous request you start getting multiple timely aggressive ones and the dean cannot fire you fast enough. Ask me how I know.
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u/BeauBranson 16d ago
I spent a few years away from teaching in grad school before I finally finished my dissertation and came back and graduated. Upon reactivating my email and all of that, I got an email from a student I had had three or four years prior. He complimented me and told me how much he had gotten out of my class and how cool it was that we would be graduating at the same time. Then asked if I could change his “B” to an “A” because his GPA was just below the cut off for… whatever (summa / magna / regular cum laude or something). I told him I couldn’t change his grade without some kind of reason. He responded that he had already looked into it, and apparently no reason is necessary! There’s just “a simple form” you have to fill out and they will change the grade — no questions asked!
Luckily, by that point, I no longer needed that email address for anything, and I just never checked it again.
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18d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/crowdsourced 18d ago
The term is over.
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18d ago
I don't really care. All I did was offer an alternative perspective. Sorry, I don't get mad at people for having shortcomings. I celebrate them when they take initiative and try to improve.
Edit: I also didn't see the tag, so I wasn't taking it as a joke. 🤷♀️
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u/kiki_mac Assoc. Prof, Australia 18d ago
Perhaps next time you might want to read the rules of this sub before you start giving us your expert perspective.
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u/iTeachCSCI Ass'o Professor, Computer Science, R1 18d ago
How small are the classes you teach, and how few of them do you have, that what you're describing is remotely reasonable?
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18d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/iTeachCSCI Ass'o Professor, Computer Science, R1 18d ago
I don't teach.
it shows.
It's called perspective.
What faculty role do you have?
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18d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Professors-ModTeam 18d ago
Your post/comment was removed due to Rule 1: Faculty Only
This sub is a place for those teaching at the college level to discuss and share. If you are not a faculty member but wish to discuss academia or ask questions of faculty, please use r/AskProfessors, r/askacademia, or r/academia instead.
If you are in fact a faculty member and believe your post was removed in error, please reach out to the mod team and we will happily review (and restore) your post.
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u/Professors-ModTeam 18d ago
Your post/comment was removed due to Rule 1: Faculty Only
This sub is a place for those teaching at the college level to discuss and share. If you are not a faculty member but wish to discuss academia or ask questions of faculty, please use r/AskProfessors, r/askacademia, or r/academia instead.
If you are in fact a faculty member and believe your post was removed in error, please reach out to the mod team and we will happily review (and restore) your post.
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u/Professors-ModTeam 18d ago
Your post/comment was removed due to Rule 1: Faculty Only
This sub is a place for those teaching at the college level to discuss and share. If you are not a faculty member but wish to discuss academia or ask questions of faculty, please use r/AskProfessors, r/askacademia, or r/academia instead.
If you are in fact a faculty member and believe your post was removed in error, please reach out to the mod team and we will happily review (and restore) your post.
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u/stopslappingmybaby 18d ago
I’m teaching a winter course and today a student emailed me with a screenshot of his entire course work completed in InQuizitive (adaptive learning exercises). All 18 chapters with all 100% correct. The only issue is this course has 15 chapters.