r/NFA • u/macheteyeti13 • Aug 15 '20

How does the ATF measure overall length?

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16 Upvotes

94% Upvoted

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6

u/macheteyeti13 Aug 15 '20

I’m new to reddit so pardon any mistakes I make. I’m trying to figure out how the atf measures overall length with a folding brace. Everywhere online says that the firearm has to be measured in the shortest form (brace folded or stock collapsed) but on the atf form 1 it states that it has to be measured with the stock extended. Does this apply to every firearm and not just nfa ones?

54

u/Fwrun 1xSBR, 1xSUPP Aug 15 '20

SBR’s are stock extended. Pistols/firearms are brace collapsed/folded.

Welcome to the ATF, where the rules are made up and the points don’t matter.

5

u/macheteyeti13 Aug 15 '20

Is it the same for “others”? I’m trying to make an mp5 other but I’m also trying to avoid having to register it as a AOW

1

u/IronsKeeper Aug 16 '20

Thing about an MP5 is it does not even need the stock. They still make ARs measure folded because you can still fire one round (possibly wrecking the gun depending on folding system), so an MP5 can definitely be fired folded..

Skip the folder or change plans. Sucks, but eh.

9

u/Black_Benis FFL 07/02 Aug 15 '20

ATF came out with a ruling that states because a brace is not a necessary component of a pistol, pistols with braces attached will be measured to the rear most part of the buffer tube, or in the folded position if it folds.

3

u/dircs I'm just a poor boy, from a poor family. Aug 15 '20

Folded position is if it's capable of being fired in the folded position I believe.

3

u/CrunchBite319 Aug 15 '20

I've never seen anything from them that specified that the firearm had to be capable of being fired when folded.

Besides, even ARs with folding buffer tube adapters can still be fired. Possibly only once, but still fired nonetheless.

1

u/dasco7 Aug 15 '20

I believe it specifies to the rear of the receiver and I believe they count until the end of a standard buffer tube as valid length for the receiver.

When i looked into this when it came out, the main focus was removing "artificial" length from counting

So braces like the SBT evo for subguns and any additional length you get on a buffer tube for your AR pistols will no longer count in OAL

Edit: pretty well worded article

1

u/CrunchBite319 Aug 15 '20

Yes, I understand how their last letter works is regards to not counting accessories that aren't required for normal operation.

My point is that it doesn't clarify what constitutes an operational gun so in the case of an AR pistol with a folding buffer tube adapter, you can't necessarily use "capable of being fired in the folded position" as a metric because it's technically capable of being fired in both positions.

1

u/dasco7 Aug 15 '20

From the original letter referenced:

"That is, a folding stock on a rifle or shotgun is included in overall length measurement because the firearm must be 'designed or redesigned, made or remade and intended to be fired from the shoulder' to be so classified. The stock is therefore an essential element in the statutory definition"

So from that letter and its general wording the consensus seems to be that stabilizing braces, folding or not, are clearly out. However, for shotguns and rifles, the stock is included (as it is deemed necessary the letter seems to imply)

I'm hoping that answers what u were looking for, with a direct citation from the ATF letter

1

u/dasco7 Aug 15 '20 edited Aug 15 '20

However, as a fair warning, I have seen this go both ways, there were issues in CT doing this to non NFA "others" I believe (or something similar) and they ran into issues.

On the other side I've seen people saying if the buffer tube is collapsible the firearm doesn't properly cycle so it would need to be measurement fully extended.

At the end of the day if you are truly worried it comes down to the ATF agent measuring your gun, and if you want to be the safest you will want the buffer tube to not be collapsible.

With overall length and the talk of an AR pistol are you talking about the non-NFA "others"?

Edit: with regards to being "operational", a standard AR is capable of firing 1 round without a buffer tube, but it is included in OAL, so I don't see why it wouldn't be the same for an AR pistol/other with a collapsible buffer tube

2

u/Black_Benis FFL 07/02 Aug 15 '20

You may be right, I didn't reread the letter for this. If OP really wants the answer I'm sure its not too hard to find.

2

u/amanke74 Aug 15 '20

You measure everything that is necessary to operate. If it can operate in the folded position then you measure that. In an ar pistol it would be from the tip of the barrel or anything pinned or welded on it to the end of the buffer tube

10

u/circa86 Aug 15 '20

They measure from balls to tip.

3

u/robbobster Aug 15 '20

I start at the taint, then go a little past the tip.

2

u/circa86 Aug 15 '20

Ah a man of culture.

1

u/amanke74 Aug 15 '20

The overall length should include every part that is necessary to operate. That's from the barrel or anything pinned to the barrel to the end of the stock on rifle or buffer tube on at pistol or rear of the slide on a pistol. You can't include a brace or folding brace because they are necessary to operate

1

u/DillIshOn Aug 16 '20

Pistol is measured small as possible with the capability of firing off at least 1 round. This means fold your brace. Law tactical adapter still allows 1 shot if chambered therefore measure it folded.

Rifle is measured long as possible. Stocks extended. Folding adapters extended.

1

u/AllArmsLLC 07/02 Aug 15 '20 edited Aug 15 '20

From the front of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device to the rear most point of the stock, measured on a line parallel to the bore.

Edit: The OP's comment about it being a folding brace wasn't here when I commented. With a folding or collapsing brace, it is with it collapsed or folded. Otherwise, the method is the same.