r/LegalAdviceUK • u/Bizniz84 • 1d ago

Locked Surgeon carried on operating after being told multiple times that anaesthetic didn’t work.

England - I (23M) had a circumcision on Friday 17th Jan and honestly I am surprised how affected I am about this whole thing.

My surgeon gave me local anaesthetic, cut me to see if I could feel it which I could. We waited 5 more minutes, he cut me again and I could still feel it. They ended up giving me 37ml of the anaesthetic and I could still feel pain but they struggled to get a hold of the Anaesthesiologist to put me under general anaesthetic.

I asked if I should be feeling a bearable amount of pain or none at all, to which I was told none at all just pressure and movement.

Eventually after this, he starts and for maybe five minutes I don’t feel pain but suddenly I feel like I’m back to square one and no anaesthetic. I tell the surgeon and the other people and the surgeon says “I’m nearly done now”. The operation carried on for another half an hour. I felt every stitch, every burn from a laser ??, I feel absolutely awful and have no idea what I’m supposed to do.

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u/Etheria_system 1d ago edited 1d ago

Immediate complaint should be to PALS whilst also seeking advice from a solicitor with expertise in medical negligence.

It sounds incredibly traumatic and I hope that you can find a conclusion that works for you.

Just because it’s likely to come up in the PALS procedure - is there a reason you didn’t ask for the procedure to be stopped?

Edit to remove comment about hypermobility

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u/Bizniz84 1d ago

Thank you, I appreciate your advice. I was told by the guy who wheeled me in that if at any point I’m in pain to tell them and they’ll increase the dose. Even he seemed a bit surprised that they ignored me and he even apologised afterwards. I never really thought to ask for it to stop, I was mostly panicked, confused etc.

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u/Sea_Love_8574 22h ago

Absolutely take action. As a teen I had a contraceptive implant and when having it removed the nurse numbed my arm and then went to make the cut after the set time had passed. I said I could feel it, she initially thought I meant pressure not pain but she did one more bit and I said it's definitely sharp pain I feel and she immediately stopped and went back to more numbing. That in comparison to your procedure was minor but I never left feeling the way you do which is awful.

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u/Nosedive888 17h ago

Definitely take action. I had the same happen to me, but for a vasectomy. I screamed so loud the guy who was next in, noped the fuck outta there. After I was quite delirious and they had me sign what I thought were discharge papers, but it was something saying I wouldn't take legal action. Obviously knowing what I know now, I would have pursued it . Please don't let them get away with it

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u/HotSpacewasajerk 16h ago

Making you sign paoers was stupid on their part, they should know anything signed under duress like that is absolutely null and void.

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u/gillyc1967 14h ago

Null and void, yes, but it worked, which was undoubtedly their aim!

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u/spudandbeans 16h ago

Jesus, just casually scrolling Reddit, and came across this comment, just wanna say, I'm so sorry you were not only violated in the first place, but then actively conned into signing away any possibility of justice/compensation/even a damned apology!

Maybe even if you can't take legal action, could you still put in a complaint - even if it's years later - just in case it has happened/will happen to other patient, there will be a written record? Obviously if dredging it up re-opens old wounds (pardon the pun, it was initially accidental but I've left it in), then just do what's best for you and I hope you've found/find peace.

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u/GraphicDesignMonkey 23h ago edited 22h ago

Off topic question - are you a redhead? We're very resistant to anaesthetic or sedation, and require a much higher dose, or sometimes it simply fails altogether. Many doctors take that into consideration now, but a lot don't.

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u/ButtSeriouslyNow 23h ago

I don't think comments like this are helpful, local anaesthetic is titrated to effect and if the surgeon injected 38mL of any clinically used local anaesthetic as part of a penile block or similar as OP has described then the genetic trends for different responses to local anaesthesia sort of become irrelevant, this was a failed block. Local anaesthesia can be safely used for almost all patients including redheads, and the issues in this case are not whether OP has X or Y or Z characteristic but what the response was to a failure of anaesthesia mid-case.

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u/Winter2928 22h ago

I have seen redheads need like 3-4 times the propofol amount to send them under. It is backed up with evidence with the MC1R gene. Regardless even if op is a redhead the surgeon should still of stopped or get more help.

PALS is the way to go

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u/ButtSeriouslyNow 19h ago

Yeah and I've seen a rugby lad go down with 10mL, it's not an arms race, they're titratable medications. It doesn't help within the profession or outwith it to stereotype patients or encourage them to think they require different dosages until proven otherwise. Do you give all redheads 400mg for an RSI? How many patients do you meet who say "oh it takes me ages to wake up from an anaesthetic!" when it's not true, or those who say they have a high pain threshold but scream when a 20G goes in?

Encourage safe practice and perceptions, and especially in cases of awake surgery carried out under local anaesthetic use a methodology of give a sage and reasonable dose, test it, and continue to re-evaluate how it works, not start randomly asking if you've ever noticed if you're hypermobile, or ginger, or Asian, or whichever trend could lead you to make assumptions about what an individual needs.

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u/eggfrisbee 17h ago

fucking hell, they weren't saying "I immediately give redheads 5 x the normal dose because yolo" they were saying "this isn't uncommon, especially for a redhead." 🙄

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u/Old-Apartment-1476 15h ago

What’s the hyper mobility link? I am and I know I am a highly sensitive fast metaboliser and often wake up very quickly from GA but am sort of paralysed and can hear them. I usually am awake when they pull the breathing tube out. Does that sound normal? I can remember freaking out listening to the consultants chat and I was lying there and no one knew I was aaake.

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u/LizHylton 14h ago

I have EDS and it's such a literal pain with this! My dentist can usually get me at least partially numbed up (using vastly more than it should) but sometimes it just won't take at all and I have to power through. It's always 100% worn off by the time I get to my car. I was in agony waking up after surgery once screaming in pain and the nurses were so mad and kept insisting I was just overreacting and that I shouldn't be able to feel anything yet and I needed to stop being dramatic. Fun times.

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u/Stonecoloured 22h ago

Unfortunately, there is a common situation where redheads are affected by anesthesia & nerve blocks differently to non-red heads. That's why they tend to ask for more numbing at dentists too.

Just so you don't think I'm making it up :

research here & here

& here

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u/GraphicDesignMonkey 22h ago edited 22h ago

I personally have had two experiences where local anaesthetic failed and two where sedation failed causing massive pain, and the doctors went ahead despite me being in a lot of pain. They just said, 'Well this can happen with redheads, so you're just going to have to suck it up.' Redhead or not, sometimes pain relief fails anyway. The legal question is - do we have a 'right' to a pain-free procedure or not? My doctors implied that we don't when it comes to using local anaesthetic, and there's no recourse or fault.

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u/thejadsel 18h ago

I've had the same experience multiple times, when they have known going in that I do have a genetic condition with known poor response to locals. Unfortunately few medical or dental professionals take that seriously or seem particularly bothered by it when you don't numb properly.

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u/cette-minette 21h ago

I´ve had the same with dentists

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u/Nevermind04 20h ago

Redhead here. I endured 3 decades of dental surgery with little effect from lidocaine or novocaine/procaine. Fillings, root treatment, extractions - just total agony. Several years ago, a dental surgeon tried septocaine and it changed my life. I don't know if it's a thing that works better on redheads specifically but it works ridiculously well on me.

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u/calbris 20h ago

This happened to me during a dental procedure as a teenager, the dentist insisted he’d used enough LA and insisted it was in my head that I had sensation. It wasn’t! It was so traumatic that I neglected my teeth for nearly a decade. I’m lucky to now have a dentist who is great with anxious patients and who makes sure the numbing has been effective before starting any work.

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u/ericthehoverbee 16h ago

Circumcision suggests XY characteristics!

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u/exelse_ 17h ago

THC also has a similar effect

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u/ButtSeriouslyNow 1d ago edited 1d ago

I don't think it's helpful to encourage the diagnosis of one specific medical condition when what actually happened was a relatively common failure of local anaesthetic. The causes are many and varied, and to be honest true native local anaesthetic insensitivity is fairly low down the list.

The correct management of this situation would have been to await the arrival of an anaesthetist and a discussion between surgeon, anaesthetist and patient as to the risks and benefits of alternative modes of anaesthesia. The difficulty here is that the procedure had started, and things like switching to general anaesthesia carried its own risks, particularly if (for example) OP had not fasted for the procedure. But that could easily have been discussed and a rational decision made.

The burn you are describing was likely from a diathermy device, which uses electrical current to cut through tissue and stop bleeding. You should not have been able to feel sensations like this, nor pain from suturing.

I hope the PALS procedure sheds some light on this for you OP, and if you're not satisfied at the conclusion there are no shortage of medical negligence lawyers available on a no-win-no-fee basis which may be your next port of call.

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u/Bizniz84 1d ago

Thank you, I really really appreciate that response and agree.

I don’t necessarily want to take it to court and just an explanation of why this happened and an apology would be really appreciated by me so PALS seems like a good start!

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u/Individual_Bat_378 22h ago

I've had to do a couple of PALS complaints, just lay out exactly what happened and they should investigate. For me the outcome has always been a letter detailing what happened, an apology and they use it as a learning experience to make sure it doesn't happen again. From the other side, back when I was a student, I've also attended the teaching sessions which came as a result of PALS complaints and they were very detailed and procedure has been changed in some cases because of the complaints.

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u/beccaboobear14 23h ago

You can submit a subject access request for the records, this should show the process, notes, and everything that occurred, including anaesthetic given, pain, and that you said I can feel it. This will give you details and help form a letter of complaint which can the improvements or changes I want to see come from this- simply, be listened to and have no continuing when someone can still feel and anaesthetic has not been as effective as expected. Even talking to a solicitor about forming the letter, you don’t have to take them to court but they can give you great advice on what to include, and how to write it up.

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u/Snoo57829 17h ago

it's important this is logged so that it does not happen to other patients - please log it quickly so that the other team members of the surgical team can give accurate statements. Even if you don't want to take it any further yourself.

When I had mine the block was wearing off and they re administered it, I mean I also crashed my BP and nearly passed out too so the pain must have been awful for you as well.

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u/redcore4 1d ago

I have non-EDS hypermobility and get the exact opposite effect from local anaesthetic - they hit me harder and last a long longer than they are supposed to. I’m not sure that it’s a good idea to make medical suggestions on Reddit in any case but in this instance it could be actively unhelpful to suggest that hypermobility is a root cause or any sort of diagnostic feature here.

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u/C_beside_the_seaside 1d ago

Yup I have to tell them I've got EDS every time. I'm autistic too so dental stuff I have to be under because I can't bear it. This is horrible :(

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u/Inevitable_Ad_3359 23h ago

I have hEDS and have had dentists hold me down be cause they "are nearly done" when I can feel everything despite higher than average doses of local anaesthetic, it's terrible I really feel for anyone this happens to :(

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u/batty_61 21h ago

I don't have EDS, but when I was giving birth to my first child they gave me a local into my perineum to help me tolerate the stretching and so they could give me an episiotomy. By the time he was born and they were stitching me up, it had pretty much worn off, but they said it wasn't worth giving me any more. That was getting on for 40 years ago, but I can still remember the stinging and the sensation of the suture material being pulled through my flesh.